I'm being Serious. [Archive] - Wizards Community

I'm being Serious. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Elliot22
11-02-04, 09:21 PM Okay. For once I'm actually askign a serious question. One of my friends wants to know (because she is a girl who is intrested in being this) What do Eberronians think of homosexuals? Is it a natural thing to them and they are okay with it? A certian people okay with it? Are they hunted down by the Church of the Silver flame and persicuted like the cute little Lycans?
Thanx for the help whoever gives it!
Hagradun
11-02-04, 09:25 PM It isn't really an issue that is addressed in any Eberron material that I have read, and I doubt it will ever be brought up in material to come.

This sounds like something the DM of your game needs to address on his or her own.
Elliot22
11-02-04, 09:33 PM Well that is why I am asking... I'm the DM... I wanted to know how certian people might react to see her doing that....
Edymnion
11-02-04, 09:34 PM Agreed.
Sexual preferance is not something that would EVER be covered in a core book like this. Because, frankly, it just isn't important. If you want everyone to be homophobic, or if you want it to be one big love in, thats a personal preferance setting the DM sets the game for.

Aka, its whatever you want it to be.
Gurv
11-02-04, 09:43 PM Its pretty much going to be up to you. You can make it however you like. Decide that it is a crime punishable by death. Allow same-sex marriage. Make it a crime against the Silver Flame and an accepted practice among the gnomes of Zilargo.

I doubt you are going to get more of an answer than: its up to you. At least not officially.

Edymnion beat me to the punch again...!
Hagradun
11-02-04, 09:45 PM Well that is why I am asking... I'm the DM... I wanted to know how certian people might react to see her doing that....

Hard to speculate on that. The material doesn't really talk about it at all, so it is not something that I've ever considered.
I suppose do whatever works for your game. I wouldn't make it much of an issue at all. The groups and people of Eberron seem to have their hands plenty full of various issues(Dragonmark prophecy, politics, exploring Xen'drik), none of which are listed to include sexual orientation to the best of my knowledge.
The Mature Thinktank board seems to have some discussions on stuff like this though, so maybe you could get some ideas over there.
Good luck.
Edymnion
11-02-04, 09:57 PM And of course its going to vary from race to race.
Nomadic halflings in the Talenta Plains could be STRICTLY hetero, to simply keep the population up, while the warforged couldn't care less about the whole thing. Which means a sex entry for all the races. Add to that a sex entry for all the major cities and regions.

Thats just way too much sex to put in a game that has NOTHING to do with sex. Aka, gloss over any details, and just play it as the situation sees fit.
Brastan
11-02-04, 10:23 PM Sorry, this is one that you as the presiding DM must rule. There will never be material on this. Opinions in Eberron would vary just as much as it does all over our world. I could recommend that you cross reference Eberron cultures with real-world ones to get a general idea.
Valheru
11-02-04, 10:27 PM Historically on earth, the only people Anit-Homosexuality have been christians. (Possibly Hebrews but I personally don't know) Other cultures didn't have strong opinions one way or the other, and the more militeristic a culture is, the more accepting they were of it, but that was also partly tied to the fact that woman weren't allowed in the military, so in a Campaign world with equal rights for the sexes, that might not be true either.

Take Sparta, upon adulthood, every man was required to join the military. They were still expected to get married and have kids, but while they were in the military homosexual relations were wide spread. In Rome, homosexual relations were accepted, but only between a master and his slave.

And even in todays western culture, homosexuality is far more accepted for females then it is for males.

Use earth as a base understanding, look for where similarities lie, and base your judgements on that.

PS This might actually belong on the Mature Forums, I'm not a Wizo, so I'm not sure, but just so you are aware of the possibility.
JBW
11-02-04, 11:18 PM What do Eberronians think of homosexuals? Are they hunted down by the Church of the Silver flame

I somehow doubt that you're going to see a bunch of Flamers bashing on homosexuals... ;)

Jay
Save-vs-DM
11-02-04, 11:36 PM I'd suggest asking your players how they feel on this issue. It's not going to be covered in any books (as has been stated before). Talk to your players, and see what level of this you really wish to include in this game. Depending on your players, it may be totally glossed over or become a major facet.

Cheers,
Save vs DM
lugnut71
11-03-04, 11:37 AM Historically on earth, the only people Anit-Homosexuality have been christians. (Possibly Hebrews but I personally don't know) Other cultures didn't have strong opinions one way or the other, and the more militeristic a culture is, the more accepting they were of it, but that was also partly tied to the fact that woman weren't allowed in the military, so in a Campaign world with equal rights for the sexes, that might not be true either.

Take Sparta, upon adulthood, every man was required to join the military. They were still expected to get married and have kids, but while they were in the military homosexual relations were wide spread. In Rome, homosexual relations were accepted, but only between a master and his slave.

And even in todays western culture, homosexuality is far more accepted for females then it is for males.

Use earth as a base understanding, look for where similarities lie, and base your judgements on that.

PS This might actually belong on the Mature Forums, I'm not a Wizo, so I'm not sure, but just so you are aware of the possibility.

Actually this is somewhat wrong. It hasn't been just Christans. As a matter of fact there are groups that except and are against everywhere. But this is not the time or place to discuss this.
Valheru
11-03-04, 12:52 PM Well, that's based on the information that I have, and the only group/culture that I've ever seen records on is the Christians. It's most likely that I'm not the most knowledgeable on the subject.

Of course in any culture, no matter how accepting/opposed it is, will have those that go against the crowd.

Alot of the christian beliefs on the Subject is based on one man's view of what he saw going on in Rome. (And his writings ended up in the Bible.)
debatedeus
11-03-04, 01:01 PM The issue of sexuality comes into play in the case of the Changeling, who can change their gender at will and may have non-traditional gender identities. There is a thread on Changeling Gender Identities here:
Changeling Gender and Sexuality (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=305152&highlight=Changeling+AND+Gender)
lugnut71
11-03-04, 02:27 PM That is a valid point you have one race that is generally sexless (warforged) and one that can change their sex whenever they want pretty much (changling). Really I think homosexuality will not be a big thing at all. Certainly not amongst those two races.
Korhal IV
11-03-04, 02:46 PM Christians the only group against homosexuals? Sorry, bub, you're just plain ignorant. There are non-Christian countries today in this world that execute homosexuals, for starters. Don't even get started on what ancient cultures did. :rolleyes:

To the original poster - this really is something you're going to have to settle on your own. You may want to study the treatment of homosexuals throughout history, and draw patterns of behavior to impose on the various cultures of Eberron. A general rule of thumb in D&D seems to be that the more lawful a society is, the less diverse it is, and hence the less tolerant it is of strange behavior or customs.
lukelightning
11-03-04, 02:56 PM Actually, this is not true in any way. Various cultures and societies of all religions throughout time have had varying views of homosexuality, almost always negative. The Judeo-Christian-Islamic religions are often (justifiably) regarded as having homophobic components, but I think that just means that other cultures have not included any specific anti-homosexual rules in their religion but still have a cultural prejudice against it (e.g. in China, which is Buddhist/atheist, homosexuality is heavily persecuted)

The ancient Greeks were not, as is commonly thought, supportive of what we homosexual behavior. Sex between a Greek and a male slave was ok, but sex between two Greek citizens was not, etc.

Historically on earth, the only people Anit-Homosexuality have been christians. (Possibly Hebrews but I personally don't know)

I don't think it would be desirable to include any sort of anti-homosexual religion in a campaign. It would be far to controversial and result in nothing but ill-will no matter how it is established. It's one thing to say that the evil cult of the Dragon Below despises love in all forms including gay love, but to say that a good church is anti-gay is a bit too close to reality.
lukelightning
11-03-04, 03:00 PM Besides, given the wild sexual combinations evident in many of the creature templates (half dragon? Your dad did it with a huge reptile?!?!?) homosexuality seems extremely boring, normal and mundane...

That is a valid point you have one race that is generally sexless (warforged) and one that can change their sex whenever they want pretty much (changling). Really I think homosexuality will not be a big thing at all. Certainly not amongst those two races.
biophy6
11-03-04, 03:39 PM Well,

I have YET to DM a game where one of the PCs are NOT gay. I don't know, girls just like the idea. I've always treated it like this (because you can't really ignore it when a dandy-looking elf is hitting on a dour dwarf) the more cosmopolitan NPCs don't care and the less educated or more stiff NPCs are a little prejudice. That's how I handle all prejudice in my games. And I'm not talking a harsh penalty; like 1-5 on the diplomacy DC. A PC shouldn't be that punished for being creative with their characters.

Biophy6
debatedeus
11-03-04, 03:42 PM ...Don't even get started on what ancient cultures did.... :rolleyes:
Actually, ancient socieities were varied in their approach to this issue, as noted above in another post. Referring to them doesn't give any useful information.

To the original poster - this really is something you're going to have to settle on your own.
I agree here.

You may want to study the treatment of homosexuals throughout history, and draw patterns of behavior to impose on the various cultures of Eberron. A general rule of thumb in D&D seems to be that the more lawful a society is, the less diverse it is, and hence the less tolerant it is of strange behavior or customs.
I entirely disagree here. One thing that the creators of Eberron have been specific about is that they have not drawn inspiration for Eberron from Earth's Cultures. It is presumptuous to think that our realities and biases derived in a world of physics, and natural laws, where there is no magic, no dragons, and no interplanar travel could entirely reflect the realities and biases of another, entirely different world. Look at all the varied cultures that occur in our own world to see what a difference details can make (ie: mundane ones like geography, climate, etc).

My other big problem with this is that how do you define homosexuality one way or another, lawful or chaotic? How do you judge "customs" as normal or abnormal in a non-arbitrary way? The answer is that you cannot, so this rule of thumb is not helpful either.
Sucros
11-03-04, 04:00 PM On the original question, it's entirely up to you, but I'd make it a contentious issue, for interest's sake. I can see thrane, arenal, talenta and Sarlonna being explicitly against, where as the more individualist areas, like valenar, cosmopolitan Breland, and Lhazzar being either indifferent or pro.

You could even have a split among the followers of the Sovereign Host on the issue if you really wanted to make it an issue.
biophy6
11-03-04, 05:23 PM Well,

I have YET to DM a game where one of the PCs are NOT gay. I don't know, girls just like the idea. I've always treated it like this (because you can't really ignore it when a dandy-looking elf is hitting on a dour dwarf) the more cosmopolitan NPCs don't care and the less educated or more stiff NPCs are a little prejudice. That's how I handle all prejudice in my games. And I'm not talking a harsh penalty; like 1-5 on the diplomacy DC. A PC shouldn't be that punished for being creative with their characters.

Biophy6

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elliot22 11-02-04, 09:21 PM	Okay. For once I'm actually askign a serious question. One of my friends wants to know (because she is a girl who is intrested in being this) What do Eberronians think of homosexuals? Is it a natural thing to them and they are okay with it? A certian people okay with it? Are they hunted down by the Church of the Silver flame and persicuted like the cute little Lycans? Thanx for the help whoever gives it!
Hagradun 11-02-04, 09:25 PM	It isn't really an issue that is addressed in any Eberron material that I have read, and I doubt it will ever be brought up in material to come. This sounds like something the DM of your game needs to address on his or her own.
Elliot22 11-02-04, 09:33 PM	Well that is why I am asking... I'm the DM... I wanted to know how certian people might react to see her doing that....
Edymnion 11-02-04, 09:34 PM	Agreed. Sexual preferance is not something that would EVER be covered in a core book like this. Because, frankly, it just isn't important. If you want everyone to be homophobic, or if you want it to be one big love in, thats a personal preferance setting the DM sets the game for. Aka, its whatever you want it to be.
Gurv 11-02-04, 09:43 PM	Its pretty much going to be up to you. You can make it however you like. Decide that it is a crime punishable by death. Allow same-sex marriage. Make it a crime against the Silver Flame and an accepted practice among the gnomes of Zilargo. I doubt you are going to get more of an answer than: its up to you. At least not officially. Edymnion beat me to the punch again...!
Hagradun 11-02-04, 09:45 PM	Well that is why I am asking... I'm the DM... I wanted to know how certian people might react to see her doing that.... Hard to speculate on that. The material doesn't really talk about it at all, so it is not something that I've ever considered. I suppose do whatever works for your game. I wouldn't make it much of an issue at all. The groups and people of Eberron seem to have their hands plenty full of various issues(Dragonmark prophecy, politics, exploring Xen'drik), none of which are listed to include sexual orientation to the best of my knowledge. The Mature Thinktank board seems to have some discussions on stuff like this though, so maybe you could get some ideas over there. Good luck.
Edymnion 11-02-04, 09:57 PM	And of course its going to vary from race to race. Nomadic halflings in the Talenta Plains could be STRICTLY hetero, to simply keep the population up, while the warforged couldn't care less about the whole thing. Which means a sex entry for all the races. Add to that a sex entry for all the major cities and regions. Thats just way too much sex to put in a game that has NOTHING to do with sex. Aka, gloss over any details, and just play it as the situation sees fit.
Brastan 11-02-04, 10:23 PM	Sorry, this is one that you as the presiding DM must rule. There will never be material on this. Opinions in Eberron would vary just as much as it does all over our world. I could recommend that you cross reference Eberron cultures with real-world ones to get a general idea.
Valheru 11-02-04, 10:27 PM	Historically on earth, the only people Anit-Homosexuality have been christians. (Possibly Hebrews but I personally don't know) Other cultures didn't have strong opinions one way or the other, and the more militeristic a culture is, the more accepting they were of it, but that was also partly tied to the fact that woman weren't allowed in the military, so in a Campaign world with equal rights for the sexes, that might not be true either. Take Sparta, upon adulthood, every man was required to join the military. They were still expected to get married and have kids, but while they were in the military homosexual relations were wide spread. In Rome, homosexual relations were accepted, but only between a master and his slave. And even in todays western culture, homosexuality is far more accepted for females then it is for males. Use earth as a base understanding, look for where similarities lie, and base your judgements on that. PS This might actually belong on the Mature Forums, I'm not a Wizo, so I'm not sure, but just so you are aware of the possibility.
JBW 11-02-04, 11:18 PM	What do Eberronians think of homosexuals? Are they hunted down by the Church of the Silver flame I somehow doubt that you're going to see a bunch of Flamers bashing on homosexuals... ;) Jay
Save-vs-DM 11-02-04, 11:36 PM	I'd suggest asking your players how they feel on this issue. It's not going to be covered in any books (as has been stated before). Talk to your players, and see what level of this you really wish to include in this game. Depending on your players, it may be totally glossed over or become a major facet. Cheers, Save vs DM
lugnut71 11-03-04, 11:37 AM	Historically on earth, the only people Anit-Homosexuality have been christians. (Possibly Hebrews but I personally don't know) Other cultures didn't have strong opinions one way or the other, and the more militeristic a culture is, the more accepting they were of it, but that was also partly tied to the fact that woman weren't allowed in the military, so in a Campaign world with equal rights for the sexes, that might not be true either. Take Sparta, upon adulthood, every man was required to join the military. They were still expected to get married and have kids, but while they were in the military homosexual relations were wide spread. In Rome, homosexual relations were accepted, but only between a master and his slave. And even in todays western culture, homosexuality is far more accepted for females then it is for males. Use earth as a base understanding, look for where similarities lie, and base your judgements on that. PS This might actually belong on the Mature Forums, I'm not a Wizo, so I'm not sure, but just so you are aware of the possibility. Actually this is somewhat wrong. It hasn't been just Christans. As a matter of fact there are groups that except and are against everywhere. But this is not the time or place to discuss this.
Valheru 11-03-04, 12:52 PM	Well, that's based on the information that I have, and the only group/culture that I've ever seen records on is the Christians. It's most likely that I'm not the most knowledgeable on the subject. Of course in any culture, no matter how accepting/opposed it is, will have those that go against the crowd. Alot of the christian beliefs on the Subject is based on one man's view of what he saw going on in Rome. (And his writings ended up in the Bible.)
debatedeus 11-03-04, 01:01 PM	The issue of sexuality comes into play in the case of the Changeling, who can change their gender at will and may have non-traditional gender identities. There is a thread on Changeling Gender Identities here: Changeling Gender and Sexuality (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=305152&highlight=Changeling+AND+Gender)
lugnut71 11-03-04, 02:27 PM	That is a valid point you have one race that is generally sexless (warforged) and one that can change their sex whenever they want pretty much (changling). Really I think homosexuality will not be a big thing at all. Certainly not amongst those two races.
Korhal IV 11-03-04, 02:46 PM	Christians the only group against homosexuals? Sorry, bub, you're just plain ignorant. There are non-Christian countries today in this world that execute homosexuals, for starters. Don't even get started on what ancient cultures did. :rolleyes: To the original poster - this really is something you're going to have to settle on your own. You may want to study the treatment of homosexuals throughout history, and draw patterns of behavior to impose on the various cultures of Eberron. A general rule of thumb in D&D seems to be that the more lawful a society is, the less diverse it is, and hence the less tolerant it is of strange behavior or customs.
lukelightning 11-03-04, 02:56 PM	Actually, this is not true in any way. Various cultures and societies of all religions throughout time have had varying views of homosexuality, almost always negative. The Judeo-Christian-Islamic religions are often (justifiably) regarded as having homophobic components, but I think that just means that other cultures have not included any specific anti-homosexual rules in their religion but still have a cultural prejudice against it (e.g. in China, which is Buddhist/atheist, homosexuality is heavily persecuted) The ancient Greeks were not, as is commonly thought, supportive of what we homosexual behavior. Sex between a Greek and a male slave was ok, but sex between two Greek citizens was not, etc. Historically on earth, the only people Anit-Homosexuality have been christians. (Possibly Hebrews but I personally don't know) I don't think it would be desirable to include any sort of anti-homosexual religion in a campaign. It would be far to controversial and result in nothing but ill-will no matter how it is established. It's one thing to say that the evil cult of the Dragon Below despises love in all forms including gay love, but to say that a good church is anti-gay is a bit too close to reality.
lukelightning 11-03-04, 03:00 PM	Besides, given the wild sexual combinations evident in many of the creature templates (half dragon? Your dad did it with a huge reptile?!?!?) homosexuality seems extremely boring, normal and mundane... That is a valid point you have one race that is generally sexless (warforged) and one that can change their sex whenever they want pretty much (changling). Really I think homosexuality will not be a big thing at all. Certainly not amongst those two races.
biophy6 11-03-04, 03:39 PM	Well, I have YET to DM a game where one of the PCs are NOT gay. I don't know, girls just like the idea. I've always treated it like this (because you can't really ignore it when a dandy-looking elf is hitting on a dour dwarf) the more cosmopolitan NPCs don't care and the less educated or more stiff NPCs are a little prejudice. That's how I handle all prejudice in my games. And I'm not talking a harsh penalty; like 1-5 on the diplomacy DC. A PC shouldn't be that punished for being creative with their characters. Biophy6
debatedeus 11-03-04, 03:42 PM	...Don't even get started on what ancient cultures did.... :rolleyes: Actually, ancient socieities were varied in their approach to this issue, as noted above in another post. Referring to them doesn't give any useful information. To the original poster - this really is something you're going to have to settle on your own. I agree here. You may want to study the treatment of homosexuals throughout history, and draw patterns of behavior to impose on the various cultures of Eberron. A general rule of thumb in D&D seems to be that the more lawful a society is, the less diverse it is, and hence the less tolerant it is of strange behavior or customs. I entirely disagree here. One thing that the creators of Eberron have been specific about is that they have not drawn inspiration for Eberron from Earth's Cultures. It is presumptuous to think that our realities and biases derived in a world of physics, and natural laws, where there is no magic, no dragons, and no interplanar travel could entirely reflect the realities and biases of another, entirely different world. Look at all the varied cultures that occur in our own world to see what a difference details can make (ie: mundane ones like geography, climate, etc). My other big problem with this is that how do you define homosexuality one way or another, lawful or chaotic? How do you judge "customs" as normal or abnormal in a non-arbitrary way? The answer is that you cannot, so this rule of thumb is not helpful either.
Sucros 11-03-04, 04:00 PM	On the original question, it's entirely up to you, but I'd make it a contentious issue, for interest's sake. I can see thrane, arenal, talenta and Sarlonna being explicitly against, where as the more individualist areas, like valenar, cosmopolitan Breland, and Lhazzar being either indifferent or pro. You could even have a split among the followers of the Sovereign Host on the issue if you really wanted to make it an issue.
biophy6 11-03-04, 05:23 PM	Well, I have YET to DM a game where one of the PCs are NOT gay. I don't know, girls just like the idea. I've always treated it like this (because you can't really ignore it when a dandy-looking elf is hitting on a dour dwarf) the more cosmopolitan NPCs don't care and the less educated or more stiff NPCs are a little prejudice. That's how I handle all prejudice in my games. And I'm not talking a harsh penalty; like 1-5 on the diplomacy DC. A PC shouldn't be that punished for being creative with their characters. Biophy6