I'm stuck with how to progress... [Archive] - Wizards Community

I'm stuck with how to progress... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
igotsmeakabob!!
02-11-06, 11:35 PM So I'm running my Eberron campaign. The PCs are being paid by a member of Cannith (they've already done 1 or 2 missions for this particular member) to escort a negotiator to a warehouse for a meeting with a shady dealer for an artifact. After a couple ambushes on the way there (including the negotiator going into the negatives once, but they healed him fast) they've made it to the warehouse. I'm planning on the negotiatons going smoothly, the negotiator getting the item. Then the warehouse is attacked by a third party (maybe Tarkanan, have been throwing in some aberrant mark enemies). While the shady dealer and his buds are battling the attacking force/running for their lives (depending on the rolls), I want the players to make a rooftop escape, leading to a chase across rooves. Problem is, whats to prevent my players from jumping into the fray? If I make the enemies powerful and numerous, they may just stay and get slaughtered. It seems like there isn't much of a chance that they'll decide to run by themselves... unless someone here can help me out with ideas. BTW the party is level 6, 3 Gestalt characters.. a human paladin/favored soul, changeling rogue/kineticist (psion), and warforged fighter/artificer.

So. Any ideas?

P.S.
Forgot to mention that this is my first attempt at a campaign.. have run through 4 or so sessions, players seem to enjoy it... think I just need to find a way to speed up combat.
TheRedRobedWizard
02-11-06, 11:40 PM Well, they'll either stay and fight or they'll run. Either way, they will learn a valuable lesson.

Stay and Fight: XP if they live, new characters and the lesson that they should choose their fights carefully if they die.

Flee: They've learned to choose their fights carefully.

Problem solved. Throw a bunch of low level hobgoblin warriors and AbDragmark mercenaries at them, they'll learn; with these characters or the next.

-TRRW
igotsmeakabob!!
02-11-06, 11:44 PM Hadn't thought of that.... thanks alot. That should do it... what level stuff and how much would you recommend?

Regardless, this is a good tip... thanks.
TheRedRobedWizard
02-11-06, 11:48 PM 7 Hobgoblin Warrior 1, 4 Human/Half-Elf/Dwarf AbDragmark (Experts, Warriors, etc.) 2. Maybe one "leader" type at around level 4.

That should be a good dose of reality.

-TRRW
igotsmeakabob!!
02-11-06, 11:53 PM Thanks alot again heh.. the Warforged is pretty buff, and they all have pretty high AC, all 21-23 or 24.. but I think this'll let me show them that they're mortal.
Sieylianna
02-12-06, 11:16 AM Thanks alot again heh.. the Warforged is pretty buff, and they all have pretty high AC, all 21-23 or 24.. but I think this'll let me show them that they're mortal.

If they've gone through several ambushes on the way to the meeting site, they should be low on spells, especially healing. I'm concerned someone may be dead by the time they recognize that they should run. Only one PC has spot as a class skill, so they can easily be tied up in combat before they can react.

Ed
igotsmeakabob!!
02-12-06, 02:03 PM Well I'll just have to see how they handle it.
Acev
02-12-06, 02:33 PM I want the players to make a rooftop escape, leading to a chase across rooves. Problem is, whats to prevent my players from jumping into the fray?

So. Any ideas?

If I were you I would have the negotiator make a break for the roof, at the first sign of trouble, and have him followed by like 4 or 5 of the attackers. Have the people the players are negotiating with be attacked by an equal number of ennemies. The players should then help the one who is out numbered and more important to them, the negotiator. Then the rooftop chase ensues. Of course, you can never know what the players are going to do. It's always a chance that you take.
Straylight
02-13-06, 04:40 AM Right. If you want them headed for the roof, then you may have to lead them there with your NPC. It's something of a cheap tactic, but it works.

Or, have the ambushers blockade all the ground-level exists, but make a point of describing the catwalks over their heads and the skylights in the roof when they enter the building. It's another cheap tactic, but another effective one, since anyone who'se been playing for any length of time knows that the DM won't waste his breath describing something if it isn't important to the plot somehow. (for a twist, abuse that "knowledge" from time to time by doing exactly that: give a very full, very important-sounding description for something that may be a complete red herring. Don't do this often though, or the PCs will start to second-guess everything you say even when you are trying to hint at something they should be doing.)
DargonSwift
02-13-06, 05:44 AM When I want my players to run, I drop in something big to encourage them to go the other way. Something they obviously can't fight. Of course, they've learned the hard way that they can't kill everything (usually in a non-fatal encounter). I've never believed in keeping encounters strictly at the PC level to defeat. It's completely unrealistic. So, as the odds turn away from the PCs, and they might be considering flight any way, drop in a beholder or squad of illithids. That always gets their attention.
Straylight
02-13-06, 06:03 AM Eyeballs and brain-suckers may grab the attention, but in this case may be just as unrealistic as perfectly balanced encounters. However, you make a good point.

Remember, though, that the nature of the threat does not necessarily have to be unusual for it to be clue enough that the PCs should be running. Having a well-armed Dhakaani strike team come down through the skylights on ropes and hammmering away with magical repeater crossbows can be just as intimidating (if not more so) than any abberation. The source of the intimidation is different, perhaps, but the end results are the same.
igotsmeakabob!!
02-13-06, 02:29 PM Wow lots of good suggestions here... I think I'm going to take 10 Bugbears with a level of warrior, a few aberrant marked enemies around level 3, and the leader at level 5. Think that'll scare them off? 3 level 6 Gestalt characters... if not then maybe I just have to throw more bugbears into the grinder... oh and i've reequipped most of them with greataxes or greatswords. If my PCs like doing it then I'll do it too.
Sereno
02-13-06, 02:38 PM Don't forget reinforcements, too. As the DM, you have an "infinite" number of creatures to throw at the PCs.

If they manage to handle a hit squad, make sure that one of the last-to-die sounds a warning of some sort to summon another squad.

Up to a point, this remains realistic. As defending forces are falling, they will continue to call for back-up until the repel the attackers or all die.

It's also a fair tactic for a group getting their butts handed to them (by the PCs) to make a call to a more powerful ally in their time of need. If the bugbears are getting beat, they call for "Gurushk the Great" -- Gurushk is the Ogre with 5 levels of Fighter specializing in the Spiked Chain. He doesn't like getting called out for "basic defense work" and he's really grumpy when he arrives. :)

Play it up. The players should get the distinct impression that Gurushk has been called out because the bugbear squad believe they need their biggest hitter to stop the party.

BTW, make sure Gurush can beat them. He doesn't have to kill them, but inflict enough harm until they realize they can't match him (yet).

Now, as a side benefit, you've also gotten yourself a "recurring villain" in Gurushk. :)
Acev
02-13-06, 04:53 PM There are no cheap tricks in a DM's toolbox. Only those that work and those that don't. Railroading your players is bad, but hedging your bets is fine and recommended. Don't force your players to do anything, they'll resent you for it and your campaign will suffer. Instead, anticipate how you think they will act, and prepare the encounter in a way you think your players will choose the outcome you want.

"Part of being DM doesn't have anything to do with charts, stats, battlemats, or careful preparation. It doesn't even have to do with creativity. It's all about manipulation." -Monte Cook, dungeoncraft, dungeon #131
Kreistor1
02-14-06, 02:06 PM I'd throw in a big huge hint on top of all that. The shady dealer yells to his men, "We've got our money! Let's get out of here!"

And the negotiator says, "He's right! There's no reason to fight these goons. Get me home!"
igotsmeakabob!!
02-14-06, 03:35 PM Well the players are in charge, the dealer will take off for the roof but the 4 or 5 guards he had are scattered about the warehouse, a few of them are going to be engaged... and slaughtered. Level 2 warriors won't last that long.
Endless_Helix
02-16-06, 08:20 AM Actually, ogre monks are very good at disabling enemies if they want to. At 1st level they can get something like +16 or +20 on grapple checks, and as they advance they can get stuff like improved trip, improved disarm, and Earth's Embrace. Just get him Mage Slayer and he'll have a lot of fun against pretty much the entire party... :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
igotsmeakabob!! 02-11-06, 11:35 PM	So I'm running my Eberron campaign. The PCs are being paid by a member of Cannith (they've already done 1 or 2 missions for this particular member) to escort a negotiator to a warehouse for a meeting with a shady dealer for an artifact. After a couple ambushes on the way there (including the negotiator going into the negatives once, but they healed him fast) they've made it to the warehouse. I'm planning on the negotiatons going smoothly, the negotiator getting the item. Then the warehouse is attacked by a third party (maybe Tarkanan, have been throwing in some aberrant mark enemies). While the shady dealer and his buds are battling the attacking force/running for their lives (depending on the rolls), I want the players to make a rooftop escape, leading to a chase across rooves. Problem is, whats to prevent my players from jumping into the fray? If I make the enemies powerful and numerous, they may just stay and get slaughtered. It seems like there isn't much of a chance that they'll decide to run by themselves... unless someone here can help me out with ideas. BTW the party is level 6, 3 Gestalt characters.. a human paladin/favored soul, changeling rogue/kineticist (psion), and warforged fighter/artificer. So. Any ideas? P.S. Forgot to mention that this is my first attempt at a campaign.. have run through 4 or so sessions, players seem to enjoy it... think I just need to find a way to speed up combat.
TheRedRobedWizard 02-11-06, 11:40 PM	Well, they'll either stay and fight or they'll run. Either way, they will learn a valuable lesson. Stay and Fight: XP if they live, new characters and the lesson that they should choose their fights carefully if they die. Flee: They've learned to choose their fights carefully. Problem solved. Throw a bunch of low level hobgoblin warriors and AbDragmark mercenaries at them, they'll learn; with these characters or the next. -TRRW
igotsmeakabob!! 02-11-06, 11:44 PM	Hadn't thought of that.... thanks alot. That should do it... what level stuff and how much would you recommend? Regardless, this is a good tip... thanks.
TheRedRobedWizard 02-11-06, 11:48 PM	7 Hobgoblin Warrior 1, 4 Human/Half-Elf/Dwarf AbDragmark (Experts, Warriors, etc.) 2. Maybe one "leader" type at around level 4. That should be a good dose of reality. -TRRW
igotsmeakabob!! 02-11-06, 11:53 PM	Thanks alot again heh.. the Warforged is pretty buff, and they all have pretty high AC, all 21-23 or 24.. but I think this'll let me show them that they're mortal.
Sieylianna 02-12-06, 11:16 AM	Thanks alot again heh.. the Warforged is pretty buff, and they all have pretty high AC, all 21-23 or 24.. but I think this'll let me show them that they're mortal. If they've gone through several ambushes on the way to the meeting site, they should be low on spells, especially healing. I'm concerned someone may be dead by the time they recognize that they should run. Only one PC has spot as a class skill, so they can easily be tied up in combat before they can react. Ed
igotsmeakabob!! 02-12-06, 02:03 PM	Well I'll just have to see how they handle it.
Acev 02-12-06, 02:33 PM	I want the players to make a rooftop escape, leading to a chase across rooves. Problem is, whats to prevent my players from jumping into the fray? So. Any ideas? If I were you I would have the negotiator make a break for the roof, at the first sign of trouble, and have him followed by like 4 or 5 of the attackers. Have the people the players are negotiating with be attacked by an equal number of ennemies. The players should then help the one who is out numbered and more important to them, the negotiator. Then the rooftop chase ensues. Of course, you can never know what the players are going to do. It's always a chance that you take.
Straylight 02-13-06, 04:40 AM	Right. If you want them headed for the roof, then you may have to lead them there with your NPC. It's something of a cheap tactic, but it works. Or, have the ambushers blockade all the ground-level exists, but make a point of describing the catwalks over their heads and the skylights in the roof when they enter the building. It's another cheap tactic, but another effective one, since anyone who'se been playing for any length of time knows that the DM won't waste his breath describing something if it isn't important to the plot somehow. (for a twist, abuse that "knowledge" from time to time by doing exactly that: give a very full, very important-sounding description for something that may be a complete red herring. Don't do this often though, or the PCs will start to second-guess everything you say even when you are trying to hint at something they should be doing.)
DargonSwift 02-13-06, 05:44 AM	When I want my players to run, I drop in something big to encourage them to go the other way. Something they obviously can't fight. Of course, they've learned the hard way that they can't kill everything (usually in a non-fatal encounter). I've never believed in keeping encounters strictly at the PC level to defeat. It's completely unrealistic. So, as the odds turn away from the PCs, and they might be considering flight any way, drop in a beholder or squad of illithids. That always gets their attention.
Straylight 02-13-06, 06:03 AM	Eyeballs and brain-suckers may grab the attention, but in this case may be just as unrealistic as perfectly balanced encounters. However, you make a good point. Remember, though, that the nature of the threat does not necessarily have to be unusual for it to be clue enough that the PCs should be running. Having a well-armed Dhakaani strike team come down through the skylights on ropes and hammmering away with magical repeater crossbows can be just as intimidating (if not more so) than any abberation. The source of the intimidation is different, perhaps, but the end results are the same.
igotsmeakabob!! 02-13-06, 02:29 PM	Wow lots of good suggestions here... I think I'm going to take 10 Bugbears with a level of warrior, a few aberrant marked enemies around level 3, and the leader at level 5. Think that'll scare them off? 3 level 6 Gestalt characters... if not then maybe I just have to throw more bugbears into the grinder... oh and i've reequipped most of them with greataxes or greatswords. If my PCs like doing it then I'll do it too.
Sereno 02-13-06, 02:38 PM	Don't forget reinforcements, too. As the DM, you have an "infinite" number of creatures to throw at the PCs. If they manage to handle a hit squad, make sure that one of the last-to-die sounds a warning of some sort to summon another squad. Up to a point, this remains realistic. As defending forces are falling, they will continue to call for back-up until the repel the attackers or all die. It's also a fair tactic for a group getting their butts handed to them (by the PCs) to make a call to a more powerful ally in their time of need. If the bugbears are getting beat, they call for "Gurushk the Great" -- Gurushk is the Ogre with 5 levels of Fighter specializing in the Spiked Chain. He doesn't like getting called out for "basic defense work" and he's really grumpy when he arrives. :) Play it up. The players should get the distinct impression that Gurushk has been called out because the bugbear squad believe they need their biggest hitter to stop the party. BTW, make sure Gurush can beat them. He doesn't have to kill them, but inflict enough harm until they realize they can't match him (yet). Now, as a side benefit, you've also gotten yourself a "recurring villain" in Gurushk. :)
Acev 02-13-06, 04:53 PM	There are no cheap tricks in a DM's toolbox. Only those that work and those that don't. Railroading your players is bad, but hedging your bets is fine and recommended. Don't force your players to do anything, they'll resent you for it and your campaign will suffer. Instead, anticipate how you think they will act, and prepare the encounter in a way you think your players will choose the outcome you want. "Part of being DM doesn't have anything to do with charts, stats, battlemats, or careful preparation. It doesn't even have to do with creativity. It's all about manipulation." -Monte Cook, dungeoncraft, dungeon #131
Kreistor1 02-14-06, 02:06 PM	I'd throw in a big huge hint on top of all that. The shady dealer yells to his men, "We've got our money! Let's get out of here!" And the negotiator says, "He's right! There's no reason to fight these goons. Get me home!"
igotsmeakabob!! 02-14-06, 03:35 PM	Well the players are in charge, the dealer will take off for the roof but the 4 or 5 guards he had are scattered about the warehouse, a few of them are going to be engaged... and slaughtered. Level 2 warriors won't last that long.
Endless_Helix 02-16-06, 08:20 AM	Actually, ogre monks are very good at disabling enemies if they want to. At 1st level they can get something like +16 or +20 on grapple checks, and as they advance they can get stuff like improved trip, improved disarm, and Earth's Embrace. Just get him Mage Slayer and he'll have a lot of fun against pretty much the entire party... :D