i think i made them too powerful... [Archive] - Wizards Community

i think i made them too powerful... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
dirty_rez
10-20-04, 11:37 AM heh... i think i may have turned my PCs into a superpower rather by accident.

i decided to gm an eberron game without reading all the way through.. and also decided to let the 2 players i was going to have play as gestault characters. for those of you who don't know, that means they level up as two classes at once, taking the best features from both... yeah, it makes them pretty powerful for sure... but then a week in, a i decided to accept another player.. so now after about 2 months of gaming i have 3 gestault characters who are 4th level.

i of course later discovered that there are hardly any high levels PCs at all... and now my pcs are shaping up to be pretty freaking powerful.

this doesn't particularily bother me, as they're not "power gamers" as such, and i enjoy running high powered games, but i'm a little worried about the progress of the rest of the world around them... i'm going to need to get creative with NPCs to challenge them properly..

anyway.. what effects do you think this faster-than-normal advancement in power of both the PCs, and therefor the NPC villains will have on the world? any thoughts?
Daelkyr
10-20-04, 12:49 PM I don't think that you should worry to much about your players. One of the reasons Eberron has no high level good NPCs is because they want your players to be the biggest heros of the world.

As for challenges, having high level villians is not a problem: Read the descriptions on the Lord of Blades (Mournland), The Daughters of Sora Kell and the other powers in Droam, The Lord of Dust (Demon Wastes), The Dreaming Dark (Sarlona), The Blood of Vol and Vol herself, and don't forget that just because they may be heavy hitters in combat and spells, they must still tread lightly when it comes to kingdoms and Dragonmarked houses. After all, its heard to make any kind of living when the Finders Guild of House Thurassk and the Sentinel Marshels of House Denieth have joined and are using Lyrander airships and Orien teleporters to find and stop a party that has overgrown it britches.

Whew! Anyway, just some random thoughts. And definently check out the Dragonshard listed for Demographics and the Daughters of Sora Kell.
Doctor X
10-20-04, 03:36 PM Woah... woah... you've got it all wrong. Eberron is nearly devoid of BENEVOLENT high-level NPC's. As long as the character won't obviously be on the same side as the party, then you can go ahead and make them as powerful as you wish.

For example... Let's say somebody in your party is best friends with an NPC. These two would do anything to help the other out, through thick, thin, and anything in between. This is the kind of guy you want to keep at a very low level. Why? Because if he was always going to be on the same side, and would be willing to help the PC's out in any situation, wouldn't it make the party seem less important if he could do the job better than they could?

If you're a 4th-level Wizard, and your teacher (>10th level) is your absolute best friend, don't you think you'd start asking yourself "Why am I saving the world?" Of course. And that's the kind of thing you want to avoid in Eberron.

However... there ARE some NPC's that you want to make higher level-- These are usually the important story pieces that are unlikely to help the PC's out, and if they did, they would seem untrustworthy.

Let's say you create a recurring villain that repeatedly causes trouble for the party, and every time he his defeated, he comes back to try again a few levels later. You can generally keep him on the same level as the party or higher. After a while, for whatever reason, he might decide to ally himself with the party... If this ever happens, NEVER let the players feel secure about it. Don't ever let them forget that the guy might take the first opportunity he gets to leave the party for dead and steal all the treasure, even if the guy really isn't planning on doing this. Remember the beginning of Raiders of the Lost Ark? "You throw me the idol and I'll throw you the whip!" That's the kind of thing you want your players to be worrying about.

In this situation, the PC's will never feel like they're doing a job that's better handled by somebody else, because they could never trust this "ally" to do the job at all.
Master of shaarat'khesh
10-20-04, 03:40 PM Originally posted by: dirty_rez
what effects do you think this faster-than-normal advancement in power of both the PCs, and therefor the NPC villains will have on the world? any thoughts?My thoughts are that they would only make as much difference in the world as you allow them to. Eberron gives us so much flexability.

I have the major baddies of Eberron that Daelkyr listed still as looming in the shadows, as an always impending sense of dread to the PC's.
I instead have created minion NPC's to keep the PC's on there toes and challenge them, and even humble them should they get arrogant. I think DM created NPC's add to the ease of the oft cited Noir atmosphere of Eberron. They are great for reoccurring characters and they are easy to have killed off and not dramatically alter the major set themes of the world.
I like pregenerated NPC's. But I like DM created NPC's for the fact that they are more personal to the party and players. They tend to be more colorful and interesting. I also like the fact that in Eberron The PC's are the major heroes, and to that end need major enemies BUT! the best thing is creating an enemy that grows with the party. With the villians of Eberron being low level, it allows you (the DM) to enable the party to clash swords with the baddie without waiting for higher levels if that is your wish (as a DM).
It is also flexible enough to have them in the background and allow for DM created NPC villians to grow and reoccur, which allows the party more satisfaction when they do finally overcome the minion and march toward the puppetmasters.

*leaves .02 cents*
Korhal IV
10-20-04, 06:47 PM 3 4th level gestalt PCs are CR 6, or slightly weaker than that because there's only 3 of them. A CR 6 isn't hard to do at all - three ogres will be CR 6, or eight human bandits (Ftr1). A single Valenar warrior on horseback could easily be CR 6. So it's not like Eberron is devoid of challenges. Just choose a direction for your campaign that will send you towards a lot of those kinds of encounters. Perhaps a renegade Karrnathi Corpse Collector is using his undead regiment to wreak havoc on Talenta tribesmen - two Karrnathi zombies are CR 5, so you can sprinkle plenty of appropriate encounters around the party. Or they're going into the Mournlands to find a missing artifact - and they've got to tangle with the "professional" thieves on the way. Each Mournland raider is easily CR 3 or 4.

And as Dr. X mentioned, so long as there's no friendly NPCs of that level, your PCs will feel plenty challenged. ;)
Brastan
10-20-04, 07:05 PM Pick a level difference that should be maintained between recurring villains NPC and the PCs. Keep NPC like the Lord of Blades, Vol's minions, and others at that level. Its easer then make new high-level villains from scratch. Also throw in one or two major gestault villains who will be at least 4 to 5 level higher then the PCs. This should help with challenge balance. Exceptional people need exceptional threats. Make the Lord of Blades a gestault Fighter/Artificer with full Warforged Juggernaut PrC.
dirty_rez
10-21-04, 09:55 AM hmm.. thanks guys. totally not the response i actually expected, which is good.

i think i have some pretty decent ideas as to what to do. thanks!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dirty_rez 10-20-04, 11:37 AM	heh... i think i may have turned my PCs into a superpower rather by accident. i decided to gm an eberron game without reading all the way through.. and also decided to let the 2 players i was going to have play as gestault characters. for those of you who don't know, that means they level up as two classes at once, taking the best features from both... yeah, it makes them pretty powerful for sure... but then a week in, a i decided to accept another player.. so now after about 2 months of gaming i have 3 gestault characters who are 4th level. i of course later discovered that there are hardly any high levels PCs at all... and now my pcs are shaping up to be pretty freaking powerful. this doesn't particularily bother me, as they're not "power gamers" as such, and i enjoy running high powered games, but i'm a little worried about the progress of the rest of the world around them... i'm going to need to get creative with NPCs to challenge them properly.. anyway.. what effects do you think this faster-than-normal advancement in power of both the PCs, and therefor the NPC villains will have on the world? any thoughts?
Daelkyr 10-20-04, 12:49 PM	I don't think that you should worry to much about your players. One of the reasons Eberron has no high level good NPCs is because they want your players to be the biggest heros of the world. As for challenges, having high level villians is not a problem: Read the descriptions on the Lord of Blades (Mournland), The Daughters of Sora Kell and the other powers in Droam, The Lord of Dust (Demon Wastes), The Dreaming Dark (Sarlona), The Blood of Vol and Vol herself, and don't forget that just because they may be heavy hitters in combat and spells, they must still tread lightly when it comes to kingdoms and Dragonmarked houses. After all, its heard to make any kind of living when the Finders Guild of House Thurassk and the Sentinel Marshels of House Denieth have joined and are using Lyrander airships and Orien teleporters to find and stop a party that has overgrown it britches. Whew! Anyway, just some random thoughts. And definently check out the Dragonshard listed for Demographics and the Daughters of Sora Kell.
Doctor X 10-20-04, 03:36 PM	Woah... woah... you've got it all wrong. Eberron is nearly devoid of BENEVOLENT high-level NPC's. As long as the character won't obviously be on the same side as the party, then you can go ahead and make them as powerful as you wish. For example... Let's say somebody in your party is best friends with an NPC. These two would do anything to help the other out, through thick, thin, and anything in between. This is the kind of guy you want to keep at a very low level. Why? Because if he was always going to be on the same side, and would be willing to help the PC's out in any situation, wouldn't it make the party seem less important if he could do the job better than they could? If you're a 4th-level Wizard, and your teacher (>10th level) is your absolute best friend, don't you think you'd start asking yourself "Why am I saving the world?" Of course. And that's the kind of thing you want to avoid in Eberron. However... there ARE some NPC's that you want to make higher level-- These are usually the important story pieces that are unlikely to help the PC's out, and if they did, they would seem untrustworthy. Let's say you create a recurring villain that repeatedly causes trouble for the party, and every time he his defeated, he comes back to try again a few levels later. You can generally keep him on the same level as the party or higher. After a while, for whatever reason, he might decide to ally himself with the party... If this ever happens, NEVER let the players feel secure about it. Don't ever let them forget that the guy might take the first opportunity he gets to leave the party for dead and steal all the treasure, even if the guy really isn't planning on doing this. Remember the beginning of Raiders of the Lost Ark? "You throw me the idol and I'll throw you the whip!" That's the kind of thing you want your players to be worrying about. In this situation, the PC's will never feel like they're doing a job that's better handled by somebody else, because they could never trust this "ally" to do the job at all.
Master of shaarat'khesh 10-20-04, 03:40 PM	Originally posted by: dirty_rez what effects do you think this faster-than-normal advancement in power of both the PCs, and therefor the NPC villains will have on the world? any thoughts?My thoughts are that they would only make as much difference in the world as you allow them to. Eberron gives us so much flexability. I have the major baddies of Eberron that Daelkyr listed still as looming in the shadows, as an always impending sense of dread to the PC's. I instead have created minion NPC's to keep the PC's on there toes and challenge them, and even humble them should they get arrogant. I think DM created NPC's add to the ease of the oft cited Noir atmosphere of Eberron. They are great for reoccurring characters and they are easy to have killed off and not dramatically alter the major set themes of the world. I like pregenerated NPC's. But I like DM created NPC's for the fact that they are more personal to the party and players. They tend to be more colorful and interesting. I also like the fact that in Eberron The PC's are the major heroes, and to that end need major enemies BUT! the best thing is creating an enemy that grows with the party. With the villians of Eberron being low level, it allows you (the DM) to enable the party to clash swords with the baddie without waiting for higher levels if that is your wish (as a DM). It is also flexible enough to have them in the background and allow for DM created NPC villians to grow and reoccur, which allows the party more satisfaction when they do finally overcome the minion and march toward the puppetmasters. leaves .02 cents
Korhal IV 10-20-04, 06:47 PM	3 4th level gestalt PCs are CR 6, or slightly weaker than that because there's only 3 of them. A CR 6 isn't hard to do at all - three ogres will be CR 6, or eight human bandits (Ftr1). A single Valenar warrior on horseback could easily be CR 6. So it's not like Eberron is devoid of challenges. Just choose a direction for your campaign that will send you towards a lot of those kinds of encounters. Perhaps a renegade Karrnathi Corpse Collector is using his undead regiment to wreak havoc on Talenta tribesmen - two Karrnathi zombies are CR 5, so you can sprinkle plenty of appropriate encounters around the party. Or they're going into the Mournlands to find a missing artifact - and they've got to tangle with the "professional" thieves on the way. Each Mournland raider is easily CR 3 or 4. And as Dr. X mentioned, so long as there's no friendly NPCs of that level, your PCs will feel plenty challenged. ;)
Brastan 10-20-04, 07:05 PM	Pick a level difference that should be maintained between recurring villains NPC and the PCs. Keep NPC like the Lord of Blades, Vol's minions, and others at that level. Its easer then make new high-level villains from scratch. Also throw in one or two major gestault villains who will be at least 4 to 5 level higher then the PCs. This should help with challenge balance. Exceptional people need exceptional threats. Make the Lord of Blades a gestault Fighter/Artificer with full Warforged Juggernaut PrC.
dirty_rez 10-21-04, 09:55 AM	hmm.. thanks guys. totally not the response i actually expected, which is good. i think i have some pretty decent ideas as to what to do. thanks!