Post/Author/DateTime	Post
yrogerg 06-30-06, 09:30 AM	So, my question is this: How do people treat the Iconic D&D mages and their spells in Eberron? Bigby, Otiluke, Mordenkainen, Tenser, and Nystul all have series of spells, and they tend to be thematically linked to each other, and then there's Tasha's Hideous Laughter and Otto's Irresistable Dance, as well. So, while it's possible to just use the OGL names of the spells, and ignore the issue, but I'm mostly wondering if anyone's tried to flesh these figures out for Eberron, and what they've came up with. A related question can be asked about magical items with names associated with them. Again, we can just use the OGL names, but has anyone tried to flesh out Quaal, Nolzur, Keoghtom, Quallash or Bilarro? Has anyone changed the name of the Horn of Valhalla to something more approriate? For some of these, it's a bit easier: Baccob's Blessed Book could become Aureon's Blessed Book, and the Quiver of Ehlonna could become the Quiver of Balinor, but what do people do with the rest?
mahavira 06-30-06, 10:05 AM	I don't do anything with them, to be honest. I see no reason some 400 year dead wizard couldn't have been named Mordenkainen, or Elhonna for that matter. If you're concerned about the names not fitting modern Khorvairan patterns, just say 'the mages of old had a tradition of making up a new name for themselves upon completing their apprenticeship'.
Nightlore 06-30-06, 11:05 AM	I asked this same question of these boards when I was first getting into Eberron about two years ago. As a DM, I ended up leaving the names on the spells or the magic items and made up back storys for them and fit them into Eberron's history. Some of them were giants, I remember, since the giants of Xen'drik really did a lot for magic.
Setsuna Moto 06-30-06, 11:31 AM	These spells are intended to exist in any campaign setting. There is no place in the classic D&D texts that named the world these mages were from. I always assumed that every world could have had its own Mordenkainen or Otiluk or Bigby who created these spells in ancient times. It's the same as generic artifacts like The Hand of Vecna that are intended for use within any campaign setting. It's not as if these wizards were from Greyhawk and oh-my-gosh... you can't use their names in another setting. Just pretend they were from Eberron and your problem is solved.
yrogerg 06-30-06, 12:58 PM	Well, yeah. I was rather asking whether anyone's bothered to come up with interesting backstories for them, because I was kinda interested by that idea. For example, in my last campaign, one of my friends, who was given to a bit of meta-humor, played a bookish Artificer. At one point, he went on for a while about how the Aparatus of Qualish was named after one Dann Qualish, a noted undersea explorer, artificer, and eccentric who theorized the existance of various 'aquatic' races. He was also known for positing that, since there was water at the bottom of the ocean, there must be breathable air, as well. (A cookie if you get the reference)
aelryinth 06-30-06, 06:34 PM	Well, the Horn of Valhalla, for instance, has a problem in that there is no 'afterlife' in Eberron. To make it work in the rules, you have to call it the "Horn of Fallen Heroes" or somesuch, and it probably summons a set number of specific souls bound to the Horn instead of going on to Dollurh and the afterlife. In other words, the spirit of your Granddad is tied to the Horn and comes when it is blown, along with several other members of his elite regiment of Karrnathi soldiers. I imagine they are extremely popular among the Blood of Vol. Thranes would despise them, as it would prevent their heroes from joining with the Flame...unless, of course, the Power of the Horn pulled those souls Out Of the Flame... ===Aelryinth
Bluebrush 06-30-06, 06:53 PM	The spells and items all have generic names in the System Reference Document ("Mage's Disjunction" or "Apparatus of the crab" for instance) so you can use those. Alternatively, I've always liked the idea that spells could be named after people who theorised them rather than made them, sort of like the Dyson Sphere (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_sphere). For example, maybe Mordenkainen was no wizard, but simply high level expert who wrote a book on the possibility of some day creating a great spell to tear enchantments asunder.
ArcTan 06-30-06, 07:26 PM	Well, the Horn of Valhalla, for instance, has a problem in that there is no 'afterlife' in Eberron. To make it work in the rules, you have to call it the "Horn of Fallen Heroes" or somesuch, and it probably summons a set number of specific souls bound to the Horn instead of going on to Dollurh and the afterlife. In other words, the spirit of your Granddad is tied to the Horn and comes when it is blown, along with several other members of his elite regiment of Karrnathi soldiers. I imagine they are extremely popular among the Blood of Vol. Thranes would despise them, as it would prevent their heroes from joining with the Flame...unless, of course, the Power of the Horn pulled those souls Out Of the Flame... ===Aelryinth The barbarians summoned by the HoV are specified to be constructs, not actual people. Although the description is woefully short about how this works, I assume this means they have Type: Construct traits and that any wizard who examined them could determine their true nature. Since they're not real people they wouldn't have the memories of real people or anything, and divination spells would fail to draw any connections between them and any real person. A "Horn of Fallen Heroes" in Eberron would most likely be seen as a device designed to *honor* one's ancestors by creating servants to mimic the great feats of one's ancestors, and possibly would be most likely found among the Tairnadal elves -- who revere their ancestors but, it's important to note, feel their power draws on the "spirit" of their ancestors' accomplishments but not on keeping their ancestors present in any sentient, spiritual form. (That's what separates them from the Aereni.) It'd also make sense for the Dhakaani, who revered the great deeds of their ancestors but remained agnostic about a soul or an afterlife. Of course, to use it in such a context you'd probably turn the human barbarians into hobgoblin or bugbear barbarians, or into elven rangers, which I don't think is too unbalancing (not for a 50,000 gp item that can only be used once per week). I doubt such a device would create all that much theological speculation -- the churches in Eberron rule warforged don't have souls, and warforged are obviously people with lives, memories and sentience. The same can't be said for barbarians who appear for one hour, have no purpose but killing your enemies and probably aren't capable of expressing complex thoughts, ideas or memories. So I doubt any mystical tradition surrounding the Horn that these are supposedly human souls somehow returned from Dolurrh would disturb clerics that much, although you never know. Of course, the connection between the mechanical effect of this device and any kind of afterlife is very tenuous anyway, based only on the word "Valhalla" in its name, which could have multiple implications as an allusion in real life -- partly to the idea of an afterlife, but also just to the idea of eternal battle or warfare. If you simply rename the horn the "Horn of Eternal Battle", then all the afterlife-connotation problems vanish.
ArcTan 06-30-06, 07:35 PM	These spells are intended to exist in any campaign setting. There is no place in the classic D&D texts that named the world these mages were from. I always assumed that every world could have had its own Mordenkainen or Otiluk or Bigby who created these spells in ancient times. It's the same as generic artifacts like The Hand of Vecna that are intended for use within any campaign setting. It's not as if these wizards were from Greyhawk and oh-my-gosh... you can't use their names in another setting. Just pretend they were from Eberron and your problem is solved. Well, no, in the very original texts they clearly existed in Greyhawk, on the Flaeness. And the story of Mordenkainen and his apprentice Bigby, his buddy Tensor, etc. is kind of involved, so that it might be distracting for people who are familiar with that setting to use those names. I don't think it's a big deal, though. I don't mind using the SRD names for the spells, although there is a nice sense of continuity and world-complete-ness in having spells named after their creators. You can change the names to things you think are more relevant. Tenser's Transformation might be attributable to Mordain the Fleshweaver, after all -- on the other hand, the construct-like body it gives you might make it appropriate to attribute it to the Cannith family. The names of the Dragonmarked Houses are, in general, good replacement names to use. I did, by the way, always think there was a math joke involved in Tens(e/o)r's Transformation, though I don't know enough math to make the pun funny. Rather than having one mage "Bigby" who seems to have a disturbing hand fetish (rife for metahumor as that idea is: I'll never get over that classic "Need a Hand? Try Bigby's!" ad) the different roles of the different Hands can be named after, say, different monastic traditions and such. I will note that Mordain the Fleshweaver's name *is* pretty close to "Mordenkainen", and he's a badass enough mage that attributing the Mordenkainen spells to him would make sense.
Splendide 06-30-06, 07:55 PM	Melf's Acid Arrow was a spell named after the famous gnomish crossbowman Melf Menecci, who lent his name to the spell as part of the first, and oldest existing, endorsement deal in Khorvaire. Wizards wishing to use this spell within the boundaries of Zilargo requires a one-time licensing fee, as guaranteed under the Zilspar Economic Treaty. Spells named after Bigby were originally retrieved on an exploration to Xen'drik by Lord Boroman ir'Dayne. His trusted offsider, Thaddeus J. Bigby of Wroat, died in their retrieval and as a condition of the scrolls' release Lord ir'Dayne requested that the spells contained within bear Bigby's name, as a tribute to his old friend.
aelryinth 07-01-06, 04:07 AM	Very nicely done! As for the Horn, they might be referring to something like 'astral constructs', as in just assembled spiritual energy in the shape of life. Dunno...I'm looking at the name and remembering that they actually summoned the shades of Heroes (einheriar) of Valhalla. that's why the original level 4 lowest restriction...level 4 fighters were Heroes in 1E :) ==Aelryinth
ArcTan 07-01-06, 05:41 AM	Okay, here's one I thought up: Otiluke Deneith. One of the most brilliant yet unbalanced mages to ever be born into House Deneith in recorded history. Unlike most of the martial members of his House, he preferred to sit safely ensconced in his home Deneith enclave in Karrnath, investigating the force effects generated by his Sentinel Dragonmark. It's said that the sudden breakdown of law and order across Khorvaire at the outset of the Last War drove poor Otiluke over the edge. As war ravaged his homeland of Karrnath and he saw undead troops begin to mass and surround the city of Korth, Otiluke withdrew into greater and greater seclusion, obsessively attempting to strengthen the magic of his magical force effects, his _shields_ and _walls of force_, so that he might protect himself and his loved ones behind a barrier that could not be breached. Finally, a Karrnathi noble came to call upon the services of the House one day, and while touring the grounds, waiting on the House lord to finish his business and come out to meet him, he suddenly bumped his nose against an invisible barrier. Nursing his bleeding wound he attempted to step around it, only to bump into the barrier again and badly stubbing his toe. Hopping and snorting blood he attempted to once more negotiate the grassy field only to find that a huge, invisible wall, hard as stone and smooth as glass, divided it neatly in two. Screaming at the "prank" that had been played against him, he immediately sought the House servants and demanded an explanation. He was told that he had simply stumbled into the area in the House enclave reserved for Otiluke's experiments, and that the servants had long since stopped visiting there, deciding that the wizard seemed more than capable of attending to his own needs and having long since tired of the man's repetitive, tiresome, paranoid accusations of being possible spies or saboteurs. The offended noble demanded that Otiluke be brought out to be reprimanded, claiming that such conduct was unacceptable of a member of any noble house, whether of Galifar or of the Dragonmarked lines. The House lord at first reacted poorly to this outsider's intrusion into House affairs, retorting that Otiluke had, during his seclusion, accomplished many great things, such as the invention of the _cube of force_ and _ring of force shield_ devices, discovering how to make a _wall of force_ spell compatible with _permanency_, and creating crude blueprints for the magical construction that would, many years later, later be developed by Deneith researchers into the _forcecage_ spell. Undeterred, the noble demanded to know when the last time had been that Otiluke had contributed anything of note to Deneith's arsenal or, indeed, when anyone had last seen or spoken to him. The Deneith Lord realized that, in fact, while he had been distracted with other affairs he had lost track, and, checking the records, found that no one had seen Otiluke for a little more than a year. Becoming worried, the Lord sent a letter to the other Deneith heads asking for skilled abjurers to attempt to penetrate the force dome that, upon investigation, enclosed all of the land that had been allotted to Otiluke for his experiments. The spell seemed exceptionally resilient and resisted their best efforts, until finally a whole team of mages using very delicate magical equipment were able to bore a four-inch hole through the barrier. They were immediately greeted with a blast of cold so intense that several of them lost their construction and their spell immediately collapsed, resealing the barrier. Eventually King Kaius himself dedicated funds to the investigation of what had happened to Otiluke, and finally a diviner protected by _energy resistance_ was able to stand at a magically generated hole in the barrier long enough to project a modified _prying eyes_ spell into Otiluke's sanctum. Within, the eyes broadcast an image of an eerily silent landscape. The eyes could sense no life, even though the trees seemed to be in full leaf and the grass green; on closer examination this was revealed to be because the trees and grass had all been frozen solid, the cold having come almost instantly, too quick and too deep for even ice crystals to form. Hardened and deadened, they were perfectly preserved in shape and color until some magic could be found to safely restore them again. After poking through several outbuildings and small huts, the eyes finally located the mage himself, lying peacefully in bed, eyes open as though still searching for external threats, preserved as perfectly and unchangingly as everything else in his realm. Repeated attempts to send magically shielded homunculi to wake the mage failed, as he was covered with a thin, impenetrable force shield exactly matching the contours of his body. Realizing just how far Otiluke had gone in seeking perfect, absolute safety, the horrified investigators withdrew. Otiluke's home still stands, and was eventually declared by The Twelve as an internationally recognized protected site, an arcane curiosity and a lesson for young mages on the perils of unrestrained magical genius. The magic surrounding Otiluke's estate has been studied and restudied a thousand times by curious mages, and various portions of Otiluke's great spell have been dissected and retooled into more useful forms, each emblazoned with his name, as a reminder. In later years, both the _temporal stasis_ spell and the means by which it could be dispelled were discovered, but attempts to see whether similar techniques would work against Otiluke's retreats universally failed, and it is said that Otiluke's strange combination of freezing and abjuring magic, though cruder than the mastery of temporal flow developed by modern mages, remains far more durable than any other form of stasis invented since the Age of Giants. To this day, no one has woken the mage, and he remains untouched in his sanctum. What conditions are necessary to break his bonds, what time limit might have been built into his spell -- if he was still sane enough to think of such a thing before he died -- no one can say. In these times of relative peace, an endless train of gawkers from across the Five Nations have come to peer at his work, an island of green that remains unchanging even as the seasons turn and storms rage around it. Occasionally young ruffians come to attempt to paint rude words on the dome or try to climb to the top of it, but the magic of the dome is such that both graffiti and vandals simply slide off. Many Karrns are oddly proud of their strange national hero, and the idiomatic phrase "When Otiluke wakes" has come to be slang meaning "At the end of the world" or "Never".
mhacdebhandia 07-01-06, 07:34 PM	I remember that Keith Baker once suggested here, and to Wizards of the Coast, that he could write a Dragonshard or similar article explaining who the iconic mages after whom the spells were named actually were in Eberron, but the Powers That Be decided it was a bad idea to allow the creation of a "canonical" Eberron identity for these very important Greyhawk characters. Of course, that doesn't mean we can't do it ourselves.
aelryinth 07-02-06, 02:54 PM	mmm! WOuld Mordenkainen be one of the lost Epic heroes of yore, along with bigby? They are the only one with named level 9 spells. Although I like the idea of these great spells being named after a porter for a noble, not even a wizard. Hah! take that, giants! ===Aelryinth
Just another user 07-02-06, 03:25 PM	I will note that Mordain the Fleshweaver's name *is* pretty close to "Mordenkainen", and he's a badass enough mage that attributing the Mordenkainen spells to him would make sense. Except that the mordenkainen's spell are not very appropriate for a wizard that call herself "the fleshweaver" FWIV for the spell associated to a dragonmark I use the relative house name (Ghallanda's secure shelter, for example) the idea is that the spell first apparition come with the dragonmark and the spell was developed by member of the houses to imitate it. The same could be done with other spells, considered that is probable that many houses would develop spells that would help with their activity (Bigby's hands spells could have been developed by Deneith, for example and would/could have its name (Deneith's grasping hand, et similia).
Splendide 07-02-06, 05:46 PM	I like Mordenkainen as a Valenar ancestor. Just sayin'.
SirPudding 07-02-06, 07:56 PM	My characters reside in mordenkainen's old house, a permanent "magnificent Mansion" on the ethereal plain. I was thinking of having his ghost pop in once in a while for tea. Unfortunately his house is falling apart and pesky psuedo-natural creatures keep getting in. Their house itself can become a dungeon with the addition of new rooms and monsters generated at random.
ArcTan 07-02-06, 09:47 PM	Except that the mordenkainen's spell are not very appropriate for a wizard that call herself "the fleshweaver" Enh, he may have been into other things before he got into fleshweaving. He is a very old, immensely powerful (18th-level) wizard, after all. The scale of power of the Mordenkainen spells does make it more likely he came from the Giant civilization or something, though. Here's another idea: Rarevar and Kashkarion were two famed adventurers who struck up a long partnership during the height of the Galifar Empire, hunting down fiendish threats to the empire's peace on the edges of civilization. Their exploits and the strength of their friendship were so famous that bards nicknamed them "Rary and Kary", a silly rhyming moniker that eventually stuck. Rarevar, a powerful human mage, did not know that his friend Kashkarion was actually a scion of one of the oldest kalashtar family lines, a powerful psion who chose to leave her people's enclave behind and adventure for her own reasons. She never revealed that she was not a true human, nor the long and secret war her people had fought against the Dreaming Dark; even the one who knew her best, Rarevar, was kept in the dark about her secret, and it is said that the burden of carrying her secret was what quashed any budding romance that might have existed between the two. Rary, himself, was always intensely curious about the strange nature of her powers, and jealous of the many things she could do that he could not. He was especially fascinated by the fact that she could use magical effects as powerful and diverse as any wizard's, and yet carried no spellbook and never needed to spend time memorizing spells and could always have any power in her repertoire to hand when she needed it. Her control of magic seemed to be even more flexible than that of the greatest sorcerers, enabling to seamlessly trade the use of many lesser powers in one day for one greater power, something no arcane caster could do. The more he learned about Kary's psionic abilities the more obsessed he became with their function, even after she told him she would not be able to teach them to him. Some say he was only displacing his obsession with her, for soon after they began a partnership Kary formed a _mindlink_ with him that was present during all their days together, and in his old age Rary would say he had never seen anything so beautiful or intricate as the complexity of his old friend's thoughts. After their adventuring days ended, Kary went back to her people, leaving Rary with nothing but the memory of a soft farewell kiss on the cheek and an admonition to go back to the life he had left and do good for the world. Rary spent the rest of his life attempting to duplicate Kary's powers. Motivated half by his feelings of longing for his old partner and half by his insatiable curiosity, the old mage, who had once specialized in powerful combat-magics, now turned his attention to divinations and enchantments that affected the human mind. The herculean task of actually discovering psionics on his own was, of course, impossible, but Rary came further than any other Khorvairian mage of that era to doing so. Although it took him his entire life, he eventually became expert enough on the mental storage structures that hold arcane spells in the mind to develop a self-referencing mental structure to hold onto the echoes of spells that had been cast and partially prevent them from dissipating, allowing an ordinary mage to have a small fraction of the psion's control over her own mind. It was at great expense, through the combination of many existing divination effects, that toward the end of his life Rary finally developed a spell to mimic Kary's _mindlink_ abilities, allowing human minds to truly touch each other using magic -- as opposed to merely spy on each other or send messages to each other -- for the first time, if without the kalashtar's natural grace and ease. Though he never did find Kary again, his joy at initiating successful contact with his eponymous _telepathic bond_ spell, crude and halting though it was, was so great that he and his volunteer test subject, a journeyman elemental sorceress of the Arcane Congress named Shara Nereus, spent the next three days examining each other's minds and speaking together in thought. One can only surmise they liked what they found, for the two were married within the year, and all the bard epics end with the song of how Rary and Shary, the days of high adventure behind them, lived a happy and uneventful life growing old together in the city of Sharn until the end of their days.
yrogerg 07-09-06, 06:14 PM	I agree that the power level of Mordenkainen's magic puts him in the realm of ancient legends, and most of his spells seem aimed at countering other spellcasters so... how about this: Among the non-elves of Kourvaire, Mordenkainen's name is known by only the most studied wizards and experts in Aereni history. Yet, among the elves throughout Eberron, he is widely regarded as one of the most important figures- and highest honored ancestors- in elvish history. Before the elves' rebellion against the giants and eventual crossing, theirs was a life of slavery. Created to serve the giants, they were often alloted some mild magical teaching- enough to make them more useful to the giants, but never enough for them to become a true threat. Unfortunately for them, one young elf by the name of Mordenkainen exceeded their expectations. Fueled by a prodigious inborn magical talent, he ate up what knowledge he was given, and driven by his own hunger for knowledge and power, he set about continuing his studies in secret. How he managed to do so is anybody's guess; however, history does note his considerable talent in manipulating the raw stuff of magic, rather than relying on the rather oblique ways to access magical power that the elves were typically taught. On the eave of the elves' rebellion against the giants, it was Mordenkainen who played the key role in organizing the elves. Somehow, he was able to create a magical 'dead zone' that protected the elves from the giants' spies and diviners while they planned their attacks. Finally, when the time was right, the elves rebelled, planning to make major gains, and escape across the sea. Once again, it was Mordenkainen who turned the battles across Xendrik, relying on magical tricks to disrupt the concentration of the giant spellcasters, while he tore through their ranks using the pure essence of magic as his weapon. More terrifyingly, his intuitive sense of magic extended far beyond simple battle; he had trained his abilities to the point that he could sense the fabric of magic in enchantments, and rip them apart wholesale. Magical items, protective wards, even the magics that bound together the Giants' automata... nearly all the magic possessed by the giants proved useless against Mordenkainen's onslaughts. It can safely be said that the power wielded by Modenkainen was instrumental in the elves' successful escape from Xen'drik. Regrettably, he was unable to join them, as the giants made a particular point to defeat the upstart mage. Eventually, they managed to hunt him down, outnumbered and magically exhausted, and slew him. Nevertheless, his impressive legacy lives on among the elves and scholars of ancient history as perhaps the single most powerful magus ever to live. Obviously not as well-written as ArcTan's stuff, but let's chalk that up to the fog of ancient history, shall we? :P
yrogerg 09-24-06, 06:33 PM	Bada-:bump: Nothing? Guys?
TheRedRobedWizard 09-25-06, 10:54 AM	Eh, I'm not too big a fan of making Mordenkainen into an Aereni elf. I just want to try and distance him from the Tolkien-esque "Ultra-Powerful Elf Mage" thing. I'm thinking more along the lines of a very antisocial dwarf. I mean, he has the beard and everything. Morden d'Kundarak was the favored son of a very highly placed member of the House of Warding. As such, he was taught the various ins and outs of magical wards throughout his youth. He showed a gift for magic of the wizardly sort, and was sent to train at the towers of The Twelve. There, he was coerced into joining an organization that saught the downfall of the Dragonmarked Houses. Being a typical dissaffected youth, Morden saught refuge behind the venier of the organization. It allowed him to express his anger at his family over imagined slights and insults, as well as gave him an excuse to develop spells to thwart his family's interests. After a year or so of this, his family disowned him. He shaved his head and chopped away most of his full-and-manly beard, leaving only a pointed goatee in its place. He changed his name to Morden-kainen, meaning "Morden the Wardbreaker", and began to research spells to protect himself from the prying eyes of his family. Hired goons from other Dragonmarked Houses were sent after Mordenkainen, Bounty Hunters from Tharashk and Medani, Spies from Phiarlan, and even Assassins from Thuriani. They were all thwarted by the many protective spells that the young dwarf had come up with. Mordenkainen's final act was the destruction of the Great Seal of Koduras. It is said that this seal held shut an ancient evil from beyond the Ring of Siberys. As the seal's magic was disjunctioned, a tentacled arm reached through the breach and grabbed Mordenkainen. The dwarf screamed as he was pulled into the Far Realm, never to be heard from again. All that remained of him was his spellbook, which was quickly transcribed into the spellbooks of a good portion of House Kundarak's mages. What better way to increase business than by undoing what the competition had done? Thus were Mordenkainen's private spells released unto the world. Who knows for what purpose they may be used? -TRRW