Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bob Bob McBob 02-07-05, 10:55 AM	How do you get ID papers? At what age can you get them from? How do you prove who you are and possibly your date of birth/creation? Are there birth certificates? What do you do if you're a new Warforged? Can you just turn up with someone respectable and have them vouch for you? "Hi, I'm Merrix d'Cannith, I'd like to vouch for this Warforged so he can get some identification papers" "Certainly Sir, why didn't you do this 2 years ago when he was granted his rights as a free sentient being?" "Erm, I forgot... he was in the basement because the client never paid me... he was in storage...I forgot...erm... he was rescued from Thrane...I made him last week, only joking ha ha ha." "Fair enough, Mr d'Cannith just check your warehouse a little more thoroughly, again, this is the seventh time you've been in here this year"
MarkB 02-07-05, 10:58 AM	These questions would be better asked in the Ask Keith Baker thread at the top of the board, where they can receive a definitive answer.
Gurv 02-07-05, 11:34 AM	How do you get ID papers? At what age can you get them from? How do you prove who you are and possibly your date of birth/creation? Are there birth certificates? What do you do if you're a new Warforged? Can you just turn up with someone respectable and have them vouch for you? Yeah, I'd like to see what Keith would say about this one. I had a PC from Sarlona (he's a soulknife, trained in Adar) go in to get some ID papers. I would imagine that a Sivis enclave would have some magic in place to detect for shapechangers and magic, and that the people doing the work would be well versed in Sense Motive, Spot, etc. It shouldn't be too easy to get fake papers, but it shouldn't be impossible either. I decided that they would give ID papers to anyone who wasn't disguising themselves, and they'd ask a lot of questions. Just enough to get a Sense Motive. If you acted weird, couldn't answer the questions, or were creating an ID with clout, they'd have someone do a background check on you. In the case of someone with an important identity (noble or dragonmarked house, for example), they would think it rather strange if you didn't have some documentation from your patron. I also assume that records are kept so they know what IDs have been created and when. I don't think there would be a minimum age, per se, because there are few things restricted by age (driving, smoking, drinking are not usually restricted, historically at least) and because different races need them at different ages. As for proof, again I'd say it would be directly proportional to how important you are. You don't have to show much proof if you claim that you are Bob McBob, because it doesn't matter whether you call yourself that or Joe Smith as long as you stick to it. But if you are claiming to be Merrix d'Cannith IV, then you're going to have to show some documentation. Age simply isn't a big issue beyond a descriptive quality. Modern people place a lot more importance on it than we did in the past. Few things in Eberron would be barred based on age, therefore little reason to carry proof of that age. That said, many communities keep track of births and deaths, often handled by religious sects, and Eberron is just advanced enough to keep track of census information. New warforged shouldn't have a problem. People likely lose their papers all the time. And not everyone has them anyway. ID papers may be needed every day in some places, but some people never go further than the edge of their village and never have need to prove who they are. A warforged showing up to get them might easily claim that he's been wandering the countyside since the end of the war. Mentioning that you're new might be a bad idea. They'd want to know where you're from. So better to tell a believable lie.
Cloud Divider 02-07-05, 01:20 PM	Here's some thoughts on how I plan on handling things In My Eberron... :) Which I should probably note is more quasimodern than quasimedieval or quasirenaissance. How do you get ID papers? Legal papers are probably issued by a state agency that already has an interest in recording information on the general populace (likely the people responsible for the census and/or taxes), and then notarized (likely by a Sivis notary). There's probably some amount of paperwork involved...who you are, where you live, possibly employment, any specific licensing (to sell specially taxed items, like liquor, magic items, Xen'drik artifacts, etc). Quite possibly some form of letter of recommend or voucher from someone with an existing ID record. Who this voucher needs to be from will vary based on who you are (or are claiming to be). If you need House (noble or dragonmarked) papers, the local point-of-contact for said House will be the ones to provide it. For most people (peasants and commoners), your parents and/or legal guardians will provide it. If your papers also grant you particular things (like Diplomatic Immunity, like the example ID booklet in the ECS), there's "forms" and other requirements (recommends again) for those as well... All of that is assuming you're a resident citizen. If you're, say, an Adaran refugee in Sharn, you may get to deal with Breland's equivalent to the INS... Whether said experience is easy or painful will likely depend on who you are (peasant vs. someone important) and where you're from (Adar vs. Aundair). Being a refugee basketweaver from Adar will probably mean you'll have rather an uphill battle. Sharn (and other metropolitan cities) may have some kind of "visitor ID" that they'll issue to those that don't have one (if only for the capability to track people for legal infractions). I really don't expect peasants from some 50-man thorp 500 miles from anything else will have the means (no capability for backchecks or Arcane Mark notarization) or need to have Official National ID papers (in a town that small, the fellow townsfolk are better ID - everyone's likely to know you). A visitor to Sharn from the Eldeen Reaches or Shadow Marches would likely get something like this. Alternately, those papers may be subsumed into a "Travel Pass"/passport - they say where you're from, and who you claim to be. Most peasants wouldn't have the means ($$) or need to travel significant distances, so the need for proper ID is lessened. At what age can you get them from? I'd say that you get them at the "age of majority" for your nation. In other words, whenever said government begins to treat you as an independent entity (for taxation and otherwise) and legally responsible for your actions. A 5-year old human probably doesn't have his own ID papers. His house (assuming nobility/dragonmarked family), on the other hand, will certainly have legally-binding paperwork on him (birth record at the minimum, but probably not full-on papers). Parents or legal guardians may not necessarily have that information on file (higher-class/status families may have them, lower-class likely won't). How do you prove who you are and possibly your date of birth/creation? If I say I'm Soneto d'Cannith, who's just recently hit the Age of Majority (call it 16), I'll probably be taken to the city clerk's office equivalent, probably in a marked Cannith carriage, escorted by properly papered chaperones some time after the paperwork (with signet ring imprints, possibly notarized by a Cannith official's Arcane Mark) has been submitted. I say to the clerk "I am Soneto d'Cannith, scion of Ginato d'Cannith and Francesca ir'Tiron. I was born in Sharn on <date>." The clerk checks the birth records, and sees that yes, indeed, on <date> there was a son (named Soneto) born to Ginato and Francesca d'Cannith. Furthermore, my chaperones will provide their identity papers, sign/signet a statement ("I, state-your-name, do swear that this is Soneto d'Cannith"). There's probably a stack of other papers (Cannith legal immunity, the "Deliver to Cannith in case of arrest" clause), likely submitted prior to my arrival at the clerk's office. The papers and statements are accepted, the portfolio is then Arcane Marked by the Notary of Breland (who may be in the employ of Sivis - or maybe not). If you're the son of a craftsman, you're likely showing up with Pops, who flashes his papers, you do the "state your name, born to mom and dad on this day," Dad signs a statement, and your papers are likely issued, assuming everything meshes up. For Warforged, it's probably a bit trickier. If you make the assumption that the Cannith inscribed serial numbers and manufacturer's dates somehow (it may be encrypted in some code), that info would likely be used. For Warforged built after the Treaty, it's probably safe to assume that the manufacturer's have forged the maker's mark (hey, how many thousands of Warforged were made for the Last War? How many of them died?). Depending on how nice you want your post-Treaty governments to be to Warforged, it may be easy ("You're a newly emancipated Warforged, pick a name and where you want your new Citizenship to be.") or difficult (need your original "owner" or commanding officer or whoever to sign off/vouch on your papers). Are there birth certificates? Probably not. Though there's very likely to be detailed birth records kept by someone (village leadership, or the census-takers in less rural areas). I'd suggest those are probably the primary identifying record. What do you do if you're a new Warforged? According to the Treaty, that shouldn't be the case... Again, whether being a "new" Warforged makes you a criminal by your mere existence, is up to the GM. It's quite likely to cause an investigation, however. If you've been built by Merrix, he's likely to have a plan in place to get you your papers, even if he doesn't have any "known" ties to you. Your serial number may actually belong to another WF who died in the Great War, assuming they even had serial numbers back then (why bother? They're mass-produced things, not people). So generally speaking, I'd assume all Warforged could have gone to their nearest citizenship/government notary/clerk's office shortly after the Treaty of Thronehold's signing date and gotten ID's. Can you just turn up with someone respectable and have them vouch for you? Probably. Again, it's really going to be dependent on what kind of papers you're getting. An interesting point of discussion might be what you do to people who don't have their papers... You can easily make the assumption that all the PC's are "legally documented." But what about those who want to intentionally be "off the radar," as it were? Naturally, subterfuge, bribery, and counterfit IDs work... You'd probably be in pretty decent shape for day-to-day life, without proper papers. Assuming that didn't include owning real property (like a townhouse in Sharn), or trading in certain goods, and not getting into trouble. The Sharn Watch mark your ID papers every time you're busted for an "assault" after a tavern brawl...so if you don't have papers...? Even with the "Uh, I left them in my other pants," excuse, I think the Watch is likely to cart you off to jail pending your papers appearing (assuming they do anything more than issue a warning). ...Anyway, with all that said, I think there's certainly room there for false papers to be issued (corrupt officials and/or forged application documents), or just outright forged papers.
Shalamar 02-07-05, 02:15 PM	I'm starting an Eberron campaign. My Changeling has 5 sets of ID papers. The rest of the party, and the Dm found this all terribly amusing. In a place where changelings exist, and have a handful of identities, offical papers must be a nightmare.
Gurv 02-07-05, 03:14 PM	I'm starting an Eberron campaign. My Changeling has 5 sets of ID papers. The rest of the party, and the Dm found this all terribly amusing. In a place where changelings exist, and have a handful of identities, offical papers must be a nightmare. And all the more reason to have them. I hope your DM is at least making it a little tricky to pull this off. I really think that when you walk into a place that issues ID papers, some kind of effort is made to make sure its not a changeling. Not that I don't think a changeling shouldn't be allowed to do this. Thats half the fun of playing one. But something should be in place to make sure that he is the exception, not the rule. Personally, I think that the easiest way to get fake ID papers is to snatch them from people and then assume their form.
Cloud Divider 02-07-05, 03:16 PM	I'm starting an Eberron campaign. My Changeling has 5 sets of ID papers. The rest of the party, and the Dm found this all terribly amusing. In a place where changelings exist, and have a handful of identities, offical papers must be a nightmare. Maybe. As a "known element" in the setting, there would certainly be some means of handling Changelings with respect to identification. Whether it's as draconian as standing in front of a jewel of True Seeing (like having your photo taken for your driver's license) or standing on one of those Symbols of Truth (or whatever it's called, out of the Sharn book) versus a means of fact-checking the identities, fits into the realm of YEMV (Your Eberron May Vary). Plus, assuming typical Galifar law is similar to what gets detailed in Sharn, a changeling pretending to be a human (even if it's an identity he's manufactured himself, rather than a stolen one) would still qualify as fraud, and considered a criminal act. So I'd expect that there are measures in place to prevent it... Certainly, the system must be fairly secure, else groups like the Changeling-run group in Sharn specializing in "identity adjustment" wouldn't have a reason to exist. Are all 5 sets of ID papers legitimate, or are they forged? If legit, how was he able to acquire them all? Are any of his papers registered as a changeling? There's certainly good plot hooks in there...
Shalamar 02-07-05, 03:27 PM	Some of the details have yet to be worked out. The Character is/will be a LG rogue/cleric heading nicely towards the shadowbane stalker class. None of the papers would be stolen. That would be VERY wrong. But it fits the type of person who may have to infiltrate evil places and groups, and need to prove he is who he says he is on occasion. Mostly I felt it would be far too fun to pass up. And I'm sure my DM (Who may well be reading this) Will come up with ideas to torment my poor Changeling because of this.
Kast 02-07-05, 05:55 PM	This is process as I see it: Get the required papers from the appropriate authority (city, lord, guild, organization). Go to a courthouse or Notaries guild, stand on an Eye of Aureum and swear that the contents of the papers are accurate. The Sivis Notary affixes his arcane mark to the papers. Forging: 1) Forge the mundane part of the papers with a normal Forgery check. Then forge the Arcane Mark (do it yourself if you know Arcane Mark taking a -10 to the check, or pay someone else to do it). or 2) Bribe a Sivis notary to make them/notarize them for you. or the easiest 3) Steal someone elses
okaynowa 02-08-05, 03:33 AM	I work in processing ID papers and biometrics all day. Here's a couple little things I've noticed about documented IDs, and which you may or may not want to incorporate when handling them in-game: --In many parts of the world, birthdates simply aren't that important to some people. In some countries, all you need on your ID is a year of birth-- the month and day are immaterial, and your chronological age simply goes up one on New Year's (along with everybody else). Now, this means that some people, when asked, will make up a more specific date on the spot. They're not lying, they just don't care. --Most countries put minor children in the mother's passport, instead of granting them their own. Something for those rare PCs with a family to consider (buy one, get three free). --Some languages/cultures put the family name first, some put the personal name first. Some don't have family names, so they'll make one up when asked. Some people have a different set of valid, legal names for every language they speak. Some have different writing systems that don't transliterate exactly, so you'll see the same name spelled five different ways (Muhammad, Mohammed, Mohamet, Mahmut, etc). I'm presuming most Eberron ID papers are in Common-- gotta wonder how the Elven and Orcish names get spelled (Thog, Thogh, Thohg, Tog, etc). --If you lose your papers too often, the people issuing them start to get really irritated, not to mention suspicious. Pretty dull stuff, huh? Someone do something cinematic and pulpy to make up for this...
ghost_warlock 02-08-05, 04:15 AM	In our campaign, warforged don't carry ID papers. In most places, regardless of the Treaty of Thronehold, racial discrimination still sees them as things, not people. Because of this, the other party members have their IDs checked and are simply recorded as being responsible for our warforged (i.e., de facto owners). Passing a law doesn't automatically make it reality. Just look at the way the U.S. and it's people have handled our discrimination. Until recently, many people were 'free' and considered citizens but still had to live restricted lives legally as sub-human, non-citizens. Nothing like a little contradiction in 'the books.' And it's still and issue, just not one upheld officially. In our group, we don't see Khorvaire handling the whole warforged thing any different. Innkeep: "Sure, I agree he's a person. Just make sure he uses the 'forged entrance and doesn't touch anybody. By the way, boarding him for the night is an extra 10 gold. We'll probably have to replace all the furniture."
Alac Luin 02-08-05, 06:39 PM	--Most countries put minor children in the mother's passport, instead of granting them their own. Something for those rare PCs with a family to consider (buy one, get three free). Now, can my party convince the Brelish boarder guards that the 3 halflings are their children? (OK, we dress the halfling barbarian in a diaper…)
Kast 02-08-05, 09:54 PM	Now, can my party convince the Brelish boarder guards that the 3 halflings are their children? (OK, we dress the halfling barbarian in a diaper…) of course you do.