Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ahiman 07-30-06, 01:03 AM	I had an idea at work today and I expanded upon it. The idea is this, why not have every nation have its own language and make language a more important part of a campaign? So what I did was I took all 16 nations of Khorvaire plus Aerenal and gave them one special language that replaces common. Now the exceptions to this are nations with either a very weak national structure (Q’Barra) or that are not made up of humanoids (Demon Wastes). So what I have now is a list. Here it is. Aundair Aundairan Breland Brelish Zilargo Zili Thrane Thranish Karrnath Karrnathi Darguun Goblin Valenar Elven Talenta Plains Halfling Mror Holds Dwarven Lhazaar Principalities Lhazaar Eldeen Reaches Eaurn Aeranel Elven The second part of the list is either most commonly spoken (C) (IE. Not a common but a language that most speak) or the official language (O) (what people should be speaking but not what they do speak). Demon Wastes Infernal C Shadow Marches Orc O Droaam Gnoll C, Orc C, Goblin C, Infernal O Mournland None (formerly Cyran) Q’Barra Aundairan O, Brelish O, Karrnathi O, Thranish O, Cryan O, Draconic C You have seen some racial languages on this list and are thinking that an elf from Breland would have a huge advantage over others due to the fact that they know two languages at the start. Well I wanted to change the rules to take that into account, so now no matter your race or intelligence (thus a person with an Int of 18 would still speak one language) you speak only the language of the nation you are in. The exception being savages, such as tribal goblins in Breland or in Droaam would still speak goblin. But a goblin living in a city in Breland would speak Bree. Thus some people in every nation speak a language other then the official one. So spending ranks to learn a language is critical and many times it helps offer something for Bard to learn (because lets face it you really only need 10 languages tops in a normal game, ever). So tell me what you think of the concept (languages as national not racial) or the execution (did I forget something or does this not make sense in some way). Thanks.
Darth Syntax 07-30-06, 02:03 AM	First, let me say: the idea is great, the reasoning more or less sound, the the sense of flavor excellent, many healths in your honor. Second, in all imodestly may i direct you a wee little thread on these very forums which, while ostebsibly about the goblinoid languages, also contains some talk of other languages in Eberron. It may be found here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=652458&page=1&pp=30) now that i feel dirty from the self-promoting . . . . Thirdly: Several things to keep in mind regarding the languages of the post-galafaran nations. For about one thousand years the 5 nations were the same kingdom, trade, commerce, politics, and civic life were central, uniting forces. As a result of this, its probably not the case the the post-galafarans speak totally different languages. However, I firmly believe in regional dialects, and not like the difference between standard American english and standard Brittish. Rather I am thinking the level of difference between the varrious Scandinavian languages, which are generally somewhat mutually intelligable but not identical , or the differences between Standard Spanish, Catallan, and other romance languages of the Iberian penensula and the south of France. This would mean that a Brel and a Karrnathi would have some difficulty speaking to each other, but with effort, understanding could occur. Now this sort of dialect continum holds true in the more populated and connected regions, but in rural regions, well, thats a whole new kettle of fish my friend. There could be as many as several dozen languages spoken in Breland and environs alone, given the size of the place . And Karrnath probably has more due to the antiquity of the human cultures there. So if you were to head out to the village of Ice in rural northern Karrnath, you probably would encounter a language as different from your own (say you are from Karrlakton) as Spanish is from Russian. Fourthly: I agree with you that languages should be cultural (or in your terms national) rather than racial. The only real exeptions would be the Mror Holds and Zilargo where the cultural language is probably spoken by 90-94% of the people, and these places are rather homogenous. I left out Aerenal for a reason here, as I don't think they have a monopoly of the so called 'elven' language. Indeed i would imagine that the tiernadal (including the Valenar) speak a very different language (or languages) from the Aereni or even the Khorvairan elves. These elven languages are no doubt related, but I doubt they are so similar as to be as close as the varrious Galafaran dialects. -- I would be happy to post a more complete list and writeup of how i view the issue of language families in Eberron, if you would like.
Syltorian 07-30-06, 09:37 AM	I do not think it is a good idea to force people to spent Speak Language skill points to learn other languages. Skillpoints, for many classes, are already pretty scarce as it is. By eliminating common and the intelligence-bonus languages, you force classes like paladins, wizards and sorcerers to forego skills they usually rely upon if they want to participate in the roleplaying, and answer people they meet after they took the lightning rail to a different capital. Sometimes, it might be an interesting situation if people do not understand the local language, true, but it should not be a regular occurence. That said, the idea of specific regional languages is a good one. But this should not replace Common, but rather be in addition. Thus, I would go the other way, and instead of stripping PCs of the languages they could know by the core-rules, I would give them their regional language as a free language. In essence, they would start with common and their regional tongue. I agree that there should be no racial language on Eberron, though, as it often does not make sense. Traditional-minded Elves would learn how to speak elven, but would someone from the Cogs spent that time and effort instead of trying to find some food? The reason I'd keep Common in is, partly, because (as Dark Syntax said), the Empire of Galifar lasted for nearly one thousand years. It's language (probably based heavily on Karrnathi, Galifar's native language), was the main means of communication. The administration used it, the army used it. So did the dragonmarked houses, and the schools. One of the things you would have to completely change if you eliminate common is the Korranberg Chronicle. This newspaper appears all over Khorvaire, and everyone seems to understand it. So it must be written in some common language. I believe this works like this in Arabic: an Egyptian might not understand a Syrian, but they can both understand the newspaper in classical Arabic. Ultimately, however, Common is a means to help players travel and still interact with people, unless the specific situation requires them not to understand that easily. But there should definetly be regional languages. They tend to die out with difficulty. In our world, We have some evidence that people in St Augistine's day (354-430 AD) still spoke Punic in Northern Africa, despite a Roman presence and occupation since 146 BC. Celtic endured in Britain too. Basque, despite the presence of several occupants ranging from Celts over Romans to the modern French, is still spoken today. It would thus not be surprising for languages to have endured, especially in regions culturally different from the main empire. Keith Baker mentioned here on the boards that the Southern part of Cyre, which is now Valenar, was a different culture from Cyre proper. They could have had their own language, and have it even today, while still understanding Common because that was the language the orders from their overlords came in. Whether the Five Nations actually speak a different language, rather than a different dialect, I am not sure. They were seperate nations before Galifar, but in general they do not seem to be all that different. Personally, I would keep Common for the Five Nations, and add the other languages only to the people living at the fringes - the Eldeen, the Shadow Marches - or those far removed from control (mountain-dwellers, for example). In favour of the different languages, however, you get the rather different sounds of names of people and places in each of the regions. Then again, there have been so many changes in the borders during the Last War that it might at times be difficult who speaks what. Didn't Arcanix belong to Thrane before the war? What language to they speak there - that of Aundair, or that of Thrane? Or Brelish, which is not too far, either? In my Eberron, I also tend to "contaminate" the languages spoken on the fringes with other nearby languages; for example, having the Reachers speak a mixture of Common and Sylvan that anyone without knowledge of both languages will be hard-put to understand (working rather like Khoravar Cant, in the Half-Elf dragonshard). But it is still possible, if you make the intelligence check. I might ultimately see things like this. You can piece together a regional language with intelligence checks (but you cannot do this with languages that are actually different); thus, people have a chance to understand the dialect/different language of the same group. But everyone speaks "pure" common for those times you have to travel or deal with someone from a different part of Khorvaire, and the aristocracy and the dragonmarked houses might even speak Common because the regional languages are below them.
ChaoticGood 07-30-06, 11:16 AM	You have a good idea, but it needs tweaking. FIf you want to drop Common in favor of the local language, that's fine, but you must keep a common tongue (Galifaran) in play so that the governments and the dragon-marked houses can work across the continent, Secondly, do NOT drop bonus languages for Intelligence. In a system where not everybody automatically knows the Common tongue, you need to allow players the option of speaking more than one language without spending skill points. If you force characters to spend precious skill points just to be able to talk to other members of their own party, your players are going to quickly realize that it saves them a lot of grief to all be from the same nation, thus pointlessly limiting their creativity in character-building. That is never a good thing. One change I would make for the sake of story is to separate the language of Aundair and the language of the Eldeen Reaches in a more realistic manner. The farmlands of the eastern Reaches are populated by famers from Aundair, and would likely speak the same language, while inhabitants of the forests and wilderness would likely use Druidic or Sylvan to a large degree. The Aerenal elves and the Tairnadal elves are another example of this idea. The Tairnadal and the Valenar, though, would speak very similar languages. The final change I would make is to drop the "special" names and just use the pre-existing national descriptives. It's just easier for your players to remember if people from Aundair speak Aundairan, people from Breland speak Brelish, people from Karrnath speak Karrnathi, people from Thrane speak Thranish, and people from the Principalities speak Lhazaar. Unless, of course, you have specific campaign-world reasons for the names you chose (Flamul, Zhanul and Maruti, in particular...), in which case, carry on! Like I said, great idea! Hopefully you will find some of my suggested tweaks helpful.
ArcTan 07-30-06, 04:15 PM	For game purposes, it's probably better to just say that everyone in Khorvaire technically speaks "Common". Common represents a whole array of related, somewhat mutually intelligible languages. It may be that in reality the Karrnathi tongue is different in some significant way from the Thranish tongue, but the word "Common" on your languages list represents the general ability to communicate without too much trouble with everyone else who speaks a language in that family. Otherwise, as mentioned, you have a tough time having enough skill points to survive.
ahiman 07-30-06, 05:00 PM	Well thanks for the feed back. To be quite honest the reason I used the other name is because I had just forgot at the time. Well there that’s how smart I am, I just forgot a basic part of the Eberron lore. I will change that in a bit. But in any event the biggest point people have against this (if I am not mistaken) is that players from some classes that have few skill points will be at a disadvantage. Well the thing is that (and this is my opinion) some players with skill points to spend (wizards, rogues, bards...) will do that and then every one else should rely on them for translation and other things, or they could just spend 2 skill points and get a language. Now I know that there was a Galifar but they do say that (I can't remember his name now) was good at making people feel nationalistic and what better way then language. There where nations in those lands before they where Galifar so take the biggest group make their language the new national one and then they are all like "OMG we rock now, we love this new system" or something like that. My feeling is that why not do it. It should make things more interesting and I would say "fun". But thanks for all the criticisms if you have other problems I would love to hear them and see if I can't fix them to make a better system. And remember that I have not play tested any of this so it may be the best or worst idea ever depending on how it actually works out.
Darth Syntax 07-30-06, 05:42 PM	I'm glad to see that you (ahiman that is) are siding in favor of a world-based understanding rather than a rules-based understanding of the nature of languages. Quite frankly I have never really liked the way D&D does languages as it makes very little sense. Languages change, sometimes slowly sometimes rapidly, but the changes will happen. Ever wonder why we get confused (as speakers of english) over the who/whom thing or the less/fewer thing? Language change is to blame there, in modern english the case system is continuing to fall apart leading to all manner of confusion (long live case, it makes everything weirder). Similerly we are also loYsing the distinction between count and mass nouns (in the US at any rate) which is why so many people seem to interchange less and fewer, they no longer have a motivation to use one over the other. -- Ok, thats done then. Despite the fact that I proposed the existence of a dialect continum for the post-galafaran nations, I do not believe in the idea of common. Instead I am attempting to build a system of language learning that depends on a combination of several factors: skill points, intelligence checks, and time. Skill points are not burned on individual languages, but rather on Language Phylua, which allow you to make INT checks to learn bits and pieces of the varrious languages within a givien language Phylum (I am not using family here so as to differentiate between a branch of a phylum, like the germanic branch of Indo-European and something like Indo-European itself), additionally, a series of sucsessful int checks combined with substantial time spent with native speakers of a language (say some months in the Talenta Plains) would effectivly make you a conversationally-fluent speaker of a given language. The system is by no means complete, these are just some early musings. Language Phyla for Eberron, [DC's for INT Checks given for a native speaker of Southern Valdyvath (Brelish Galafaran) from Wroat]. Known languages are as follows: Brelish , Zil, and Barentic (a language of western Breland) Xen-Tradashai: comprizing numerous families, and containing most of the languages spoken by Elves, the decendents of the Xen'Drik giants from the norther half of the contenent, the Drow, and the Sahuagin. 1 Skill point to have a basic understanding of the phylum Examples Languages Tiernadiel: a broad set of dialects spoken by the Valenar and the other Tiernadiel.DC 10 to comprehend once, 3 sucsessful Int checks to become 'fluent' Arventari: an extinct language originally spoken by a branch of the elves. DC 15 to comprehend one, 5 sucsessful Int checks to become 'fluent' Aereni: rather self-explanitory. DC 10 to comprehend once, 3 sucessful Int checks to become 'fluent' Saidu Piadwe: an old, extinct, giant language. DC 15 to comprehend once, 5 sucessful Int checks to be 'fluent' Xavantil: a dialect continum in northern Xen'Drik among many giant groups. DC 10 to comprehend once, 3 sucessful Int checks to become 'fluent' Zil-Talen Languages: A diverse phylum comprizing two great families, Zhilatiyaro (Zil languages) and Taalco (Talen languages). These languages are Polysythetic and known for being very complex. the usual DC's for learning these by non-native speakers is 15, however , as our Brelish exemplar already speaks Zil, the DC's are reduced by 5, making them DC 10. Orjanyi Taalco: the major north-Talen language. DC 10 to comprehend once, 3 sucsessful Int checks to become 'fluent' -- As I have said, the system is not anywhere near finished, but it allows for a much wider variety of languages in the world, which makes it more sensical and interesting (to me at any rate) The real problem is creating a base DC system which can be easily modified to show how comparitivly easy or difficult learning a language is for any particular person based on what they already speak.
ahiman 07-30-06, 09:24 PM	Thank you for your support Darth Syntax. Though I find your system to be more "realistic" (if anything in D&D can be realistic) but the problem is that it is too complicated to implement. Not that I don't like it, its just that that system would put too much focus on language and not enough on the speaking of it. In my opinion this is just a little DM tick to make players RP more and be more concerned with their character then their skills. After all every one likes’ good food but no one takes ranks in craft cooking. But thanks.
Darth Syntax 07-30-06, 10:06 PM	I agree the system is currently unwealdy. Rules and the like are not my speciality so *shrug* there is that. One thing that might work, and be less wonky, would be to remove the idea of set 'bonus languages' determined by race and the like, and instead make them dependant on culture and region of origin. So a Brel would be far more likely to speak Zil, than an Aundairan, and things of that nature.
Sarlax 07-31-06, 12:49 AM	I favor the lack of Common in many settings, I don't feel it's appropriate to drop it in Khorvaire. The human population of Khorvaire derived from a single source: the Lhazaar expedition. The first colonists would have almost certainly shared a single human language. They then spread across the area held by the current 5 nations; Breland, Aundair, Cyre, Karrnath, Thrane. And I mean their current borders. If humans had settled farther than these regions, they would be so sparely settled and/or currently occupied by other races (Eldeen Reaches, Zilargo, etc.). Between colonization and Galifar, languages might have diversified, but not too extremely. Since humans still share a common religion, we can tell that there's been frequent social exchange, which keeps a language homogenous. Then Galifar comes along and brings a single imperial institution. With the dragonmarked houses granted something like royal monopolies to carry out their trades, there are a number of institutions enforcing a common tongue by virtue of their universality.
ChaoticGood 07-31-06, 01:19 AM	Between colonization and Galifar, languages might have diversified, but not too extremely. Since humans still share a common religion, we can tell that there's been frequent social exchange, which keeps a language homogenous. Then Galifar comes along and brings a single imperial institution. With the dragonmarked houses granted something like royal monopolies to carry out their trades, there are a number of institutions enforcing a common tongue by virtue of their universality. I am in complete agreeance with this. The Five Nations, especially, should share a language. Call it Galifaran rather than Common, if that makes you feel better, but a nation like Galifar doesn't exist without enforcing a lingua franca. Do what you like with the Zil and the Eldeen Reaches and the Shadow Marches, but the Galifarans shared a language. Their civilization would have depended on it. Of course there are dialects; the average Brelish farmer can barely understand the spoken words of a Karrnathi merchant (ever try to talk to a Scotsman with a true brogue?)... but once the words are written down, there's really not much trouble at all. If it's the "automatically fluent" part of the language rules that you don't like, though, I have an idea for more realistic way to learn languages. Perhaps I will get a chance to write it up this week...
ArcTan 07-31-06, 01:26 AM	Ok, thats done then. Despite the fact that I proposed the existence of a dialect continum for the post-galafaran nations, I do not believe in the idea of common. Instead I am attempting to build a system of language learning that depends on a combination of several factors: skill points, intelligence checks, and time. Skill points are not burned on individual languages, but rather on Language Phylua, which allow you to make INT checks to learn bits and pieces of the varrious languages within a givien language Phylum (I am not using family here so as to differentiate between a branch of a phylum, like the germanic branch of Indo-European and something like Indo-European itself), additionally, a series of sucsessful int checks combined with substantial time spent with native speakers of a language (say some months in the Talenta Plains) would effectivly make you a conversationally-fluent speaker of a given language. The system is by no means complete, these are just some early musings. Language Phyla for Eberron, [DC's for INT Checks given for a native speaker of Southern Valdyvath (Brelish Galafaran) from Wroat]. Known languages are as follows: Brelish , Zil, and Barentic (a language of western Breland) Xen-Tradashai: comprizing numerous families, and containing most of the languages spoken by Elves, the decendents of the Xen'Drik giants from the norther half of the contenent, the Drow, and the Sahuagin. 1 Skill point to have a basic understanding of the phylum Examples Languages Tiernadiel: a broad set of dialects spoken by the Valenar and the other Tiernadiel.DC 10 to comprehend once, 3 sucsessful Int checks to become 'fluent' Arventari: an extinct language originally spoken by a branch of the elves. DC 15 to comprehend one, 5 sucsessful Int checks to become 'fluent' Aereni: rather self-explanitory. DC 10 to comprehend once, 3 sucessful Int checks to become 'fluent' Saidu Piadwe: an old, extinct, giant language. DC 15 to comprehend once, 5 sucessful Int checks to be 'fluent' Xavantil: a dialect continum in northern Xen'Drik among many giant groups. DC 10 to comprehend once, 3 sucessful Int checks to become 'fluent' Zil-Talen Languages: A diverse phylum comprizing two great families, Zhilatiyaro (Zil languages) and Taalco (Talen languages). These languages are Polysythetic and known for being very complex. the usual DC's for learning these by non-native speakers is 15, however , as our Brelish exemplar already speaks Zil, the DC's are reduced by 5, making them DC 10. Orjanyi Taalco: the major north-Talen language. DC 10 to comprehend once, 3 sucsessful Int checks to become 'fluent' -- As I have said, the system is not anywhere near finished, but it allows for a much wider variety of languages in the world, which makes it more sensical and interesting (to me at any rate) The real problem is creating a base DC system which can be easily modified to show how comparitivly easy or difficult learning a language is for any particular person based on what they already speak. Interesting. How often do you get to make Int checks? I imagine it'd have to be time-based, at least in concept (one check per month seems right) with bonuses or penalties depending on what you're doing in that time. (Say, one check per two months for spending all that time holed up in your hotel room, changed to two checks per month for spending all that time talking to people, with a native speaker as a guide.) Something like this would have to be RPed and DM fiat'd a bit to make it usable in a game. For one thing, it makes the process of creating a new character who already knows a certain number of languages as the game starts somewhat awkward.
Darth Syntax 07-31-06, 01:33 AM	I haven't worked out the nuances of the system yet, so I can't really give as many answers as I would like, however the once per month sounds good. And yeah, there are plenty of kinks left in the idea, and I would greatly appriciate any ideas you have.
ArcTan 07-31-06, 01:33 AM	I'm glad to see that you (ahiman that is) are siding in favor of a world-based understanding rather than a rules-based understanding of the nature of languages. Quite frankly I have never really liked the way D&D does languages as it makes very little sense. Languages change, sometimes slowly sometimes rapidly, but the changes will happen. Ever wonder why we get confused (as speakers of english) over the who/whom thing or the less/fewer thing? Language change is to blame there, in modern english the case system is continuing to fall apart leading to all manner of confusion (long live case, it makes everything weirder). Similerly we are also loYsing the distinction between count and mass nouns (in the US at any rate) which is why so many people seem to interchange less and fewer, they no longer have a motivation to use one over the other. I think it's understood in D&D rules that "Common" is not a single, immutable language -- it represents the general ability to speak in such a way that the majority of people within a certain cultural milieu (the "home civilization" your campaign takes place in) can understand you. That can encompass dozens of different dialects, and in a campaign that takes place 500 years after another one it can mean literally a completely different language -- but it's the ability to perform, essentially, the Speak Language skill that's important. Just as a skill like Survival really encompasses *tons* of different, complex tasks that a person has to learn in order to survive in the wilderness -- but since you tend to learn them all together if you know anything about survival, they're treated as a single skill set. Rules in D&D aren't supposed to realistically model a person completely in mathematical terms -- they're not particularly "Simulationist", to use GNS terminology. Rather, they tell you what you can and can't do for the sake of completing tasks within the game.
taski 07-31-06, 02:54 AM	... Rather, they tell you what you can and can't do for the sake of completing tasks within the game. This is, oddly enough, a case for Darth's little language system. As I am his DM, and I'm very aware of his interest in languages (his character its a lingust, too), I actually plan on, at some point, making learning the language of an isolated community a task to be completed. It'll be fun for him, so hey, why not. Normally, a diplomatic character is screwed when he finds a lost civilization of bee-people and can't speak their language -- he has to arbitraily wait until he gains a level to say or understand anything in beetalk. Ironically, if he retired from adventuring to listen to the bee-people, he would never learn their language. With Darth's system, the character has a chance, without having to run off and kill bulettes (boring). Personally, I would allow PCs to make hastened Int checks for each day of instense study, at a -15 penalty. Not very realistic, I know, but good for dramatic effect. Maybe it would be a feat.
ahiman 07-31-06, 04:19 AM	I see the point about the galifar language and I would say that it comes down to whether or not you want it to be that way. I can see the five all speaking one language or each having their own. I will have to think about that some more. But on to another problem for now, learning languages at once, leveling and time (this ones for you taski). I would say that the rules for D&D are for adventurers not "common" folk. This means that an adventurer does it faster (all things from learning to swing a sword to learning a language) meaning that a "commoner" does it slower. So if I was DMing a game where I left the players with the Bee people for 2 years I would say that a series of Int checks would be more appropriate as they are just sitting there for 2 years (hmmmm honey).
ahiman 08-02-06, 02:41 AM	Here is a modified language list with the five nations and Q'Barra having Galifar as a language. It hasn't been that long and the empire lasted a long time so they would have one nation. Aundair Galifar Breland Galifar Zilargo Zili Thrane Galifar Karrnath Galifar Darguun Goblin Valenar Elven Talenta Plains Halfling Mror Holds Dwarven Lhazaar Principalities Lhazaar Eldeen Reaches Eaurn Aeranel Elven The second part of the list is either most commonly spoken (C) (IE. Not a common but a language that most speak) or the official language (O) (what people should be speaking but not what they do speak). Demon Wastes Infernal C Shadow Marches Orc O Droaam Gnoll C, Orc C, Goblin C, Infernal O Mournland None (formerly Galifar) Q’Barra Galifar O, Draconic C
BoneLord_of_Skullthrone 08-17-06, 03:46 PM	:bump:
Siberys 01-20-07, 01:56 PM	I'd like to see more on this language system, DS. Please expand on it! :bump:
Darth Syntax 01-20-07, 03:15 PM	Other than the very rough outline of the proposed rules I have listed above, I haven't really given the system all that much thought. However, my goal of making language learning an active, character driven, aspect of the game remains as strong as ever. On a semi-related note: I have been thinking of making outsider languages far more difficult to learn (and theoretically dangerous as well) than mortal languages. For one, INT check DC's would be noticeably higher (possibly around 20 - 25 depending on the language). Note: for the purposes of language learning, proper Draconic counts as an outsider language. On character starting languages: The idea of bonus languages based on race is out. Instead, possible starting languages are determined by region. So a Brel is likely to begin with Standard Brelish, their local dialect, and perhaps Zil. Bonus languages are then granted based on a combination of intelligence, region, class, and the like (ideally this should be talked over with the DM so that a reasonable agreement can be reached). Now, our hypothetical Brel is, say, a wizard with an 18 int giving her (apparently our example is female today) a +4 bonus to int checks. At level 1 she may select up to 4 additional mortal languages (costing 1 point each), 2 outsider languages (costing 2 points each), or some combination of these. So our level 1 wizard knows (at level 1): Standard Brelish, local dialect (Vathirond let's say), Zil, Darguul, Syranian (outsider language), and some Talen language of some sort. -- Granted this is just a very rough idea as I only now just devised it. As always, comments, critiques, rants, ideas, $5,000 checks, are welcome.