Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Goblin-Crunch Cerial 06-04-04, 11:21 AM	I don’t know if any people who frequent here really care but… It seems the Iron Kingdoms source book will be out sometime in June (baring any mishaps) [Now if I’m wrong please forgive my lack of truth.] Which leads me to a quandary… What happens if the Ebberron Book and The IK book comes out at the same time??? I’ll be getting both that’s for sure… But looking at all the previews I think I’ll like IK better because the world is more to the “Style” I want. BUT I think Ebberon will be a much better and more refined game with better world/monster/nations development… But we’ll see. I’m looking forward to see which game come out on top in the independedent reviews… And of course it it will happen (at least for me) Warforged vs Steamjack…. FIGHT!
cirathorn 06-04-04, 03:03 PM	I get the distinct taste of stolen ideas when I read about Eberron and then Compare it to IK to tell the truth. There are to many similarities between them. (Sorry I have been a purist for Privateer press from their beginning) I say go over both pretty heavily in the sotre before you purchase so you get the one that fits your style best. And the First IKCG, all 400 pages of it, will be out the end of this month. Book 2 will be the middle of next month with another 400 pages. thats right I did say 400 pages for EACH book not all together
Hellcow 06-04-04, 08:57 PM	Originally posted by cirathorn I get the distinct taste of stolen ideas when I read about Eberron and then Compare it to IK to tell the truth. There are to many similarities between them. We'll see if you feel the same way at the end of the month. I actually know almost nothing about Iron Kingdoms, so if there is overlap, it is coincidental. But from what I've read recently, I think you'll find less overlap than you think. The web info about Iron Kingdoms puts a major emphasis on steam power, gunpowder, and the blending of magic and actual technology. None of these things are part of Eberron. I think that there are obvious cosmetic similarities-- warjacks vs warforged -- but I don't think the two are actually going to turn out to be that similar. But as I said, I know almost nothing about IK, so I could be wrong. I'm looking forward to seeing the IK book myself! Just out of curiosity, what are the key elements that you feel are "stolen"? (And to folks who saw my earlier message, I am traveling, so I'm only going to be posting very sporadically!)
Harmony's Sorrow 06-05-04, 05:37 PM	*shivers up my spine after looking at Iron Kingdoms* I wont buy that... In fact I'll just pretend I didn't even see it...
Banshee 06-06-04, 08:32 PM	Originally posted by Hellcow We'll see if you feel the same way at the end of the month. I actually know almost nothing about Iron Kingdoms, so if there is overlap, it is coincidental. But from what I've read recently, I think you'll find less overlap than you think. The web info about Iron Kingdoms puts a major emphasis on steam power, gunpowder, and the blending of magic and actual technology. None of these things are part of Eberron. I think that there are obvious cosmetic similarities-- warjacks vs warforged -- but I don't think the two are actually going to turn out to be that similar. But as I said, I know almost nothing about IK, so I could be wrong. I'm looking forward to seeing the IK book myself! Just out of curiosity, what are the key elements that you feel are "stolen"? (And to folks who saw my earlier message, I am traveling, so I'm only going to be posting very sporadically!) If you weren't really reading up on Iron Kingdoms, then this could be a situation similar to convergent evolution....ie. dolphins vs. ichthyasaur. The end result may feature some similarities, but under the skin, they're completely different beasts. Iron Kingdoms isn't actually just Steampunk.....the technology requires magic as well.....all those steamjacks and stuff aren't made by engineers....they're made by wizards. From that perspective, they're similar. But I suspect that they'll be very different....Eberron seems way more high magic centered. Iron Kingdoms is really gritty and lower magic by comparison. Banshee
Banshee 06-06-04, 08:33 PM	Originally posted by Harmony's Sorrow *shivers up my spine after looking at Iron Kingdoms* I wont buy that... In fact I'll just pretend I didn't even see it... Why? Personally, I think elements from each could be used to make one awesome game world :) Banshee
Goblin-Crunch Cerial 06-07-04, 07:25 AM	Originally posted by Banshee Why? Personally, I think elements from each could be used to make one awesome game world :) Banshee Blank-ity-blank-hell-yeah... I bet if you took these two works you could make an incredible world. And I think these two books will be compatable. I'm very curious to see how each 'book' explains how things are made... Warjacks: Spells, magic coal, incantations? Warforged... ???? One of my favorite worlds was from Warhammer 40K. Note- some aspects were super cheezy but everything was explained... The marines, Chaos, the Emperor, Eldar, Tyrranids... It wasn't just... "Hey we have a bunch of fantasy minatures that would cost next to nothing to remove the sword and put in a gun... Lets just call em space-elves..." And thats the one thing about Ebberron I'm going to pick and pick at. The war... what was the cause... Warforged... how were they made... Vampires...(From what I've read in these forums they seem imortant...) I will buy the Ebberron book on one merit alone. I want to see if WoTC is finally taking a grand step in their writting or if their still pumping out random spagetti much like say ...{{{white wolf}}}... Needless to say I'm excited and I think I'll be impressed. IS IT JUNE 19 yet???
Ishorn 06-07-04, 02:17 PM	Ha, Ha, Ha,.... Someone say IK books coming out. This must be some kind of a joke the last I checked on Privateer's site the book was do out fall of 2003. I waited long enough for that setting that is why I am buying Eberron. Privateer has been to busy taking on a giant in the wargaming industry to care about role playing and customer satisfaction. They even laughed at GenCon last year when they thought the campaign book would see the light of day. My advice buy Eberron.
cirathorn 06-07-04, 03:12 PM	Yea the books are seriosuly behind, but if your a fan liek I am, then you don't mind having waited since 2002 (thats right, 2002 not 2003) for it. Like I was saying though I will definitely buy both books, but IK will be first, and Eb prolly around Christmas or Thanksgiving.
shoplifter 06-07-04, 06:34 PM	Yeah, the player's guide is coming out at Gencon, the second book around Thanksgiving iirc. Yes, they're actually coming this time.
Brasidas 06-08-04, 03:13 AM	The Iron Kingdoms Campaign Guide files were shipped to the printer on May 27. The printer has said that their order will be completed in "a few weeks". Current best guestimates put the IKCG in stores somewhere between the end of June and the beginning of August (I'm guessing around mid-July). Having read through the Eberron boards for the last few weeks, I've come to the conclusion that Hellcow is correct: While the Iron Kingdoms and Eberron have a similar feel, that similarity is superficial. (For what it's worth, the Editor of the IKCG has said the same thing on the Privateer Press forums.) I think that there will be enough of a difference to warrant buying Eberron when it comes out (I'm showing my bias for Privateer again :rolleyes: ), but that the difference in atmosphere and mechanics will make it harder to blend the two systems then you might think. Whereas Eberron seems to use magic to simulate many aspects of technology, the Iron Kingdoms uses technology to substitute for many (but certainly not all) effects of magic. Eberron seems to have a very noir feel, while the Iron Kingdoms to me feels more like Reformation Europe (Martin Luther, Thirty Year's War, etc.). In any case, I'll be buying both just as soon as I can. Maybe I'll do a compare & contrast in a couple months...:)
SJE 06-08-04, 09:30 AM	Eshk! Have you read the first IK adventure "Witchblade"? its totally noir. A beuatiful young girl on a revenge trip. The PC's not realising she is the villain and not the victim until its too late? then everything goes to hell in a handbasket? As for comments that say "Well the similarities are superficial" I retain the right to call a spade, a spade and not a "non-magical earth moving tool". If its a big robot thats terrifying in combat then its fantasy mecha whether its called a warjack or a warforged and both come from the desire to include mecha in the game, rather than any background element. The mecha came before the rationale, rather than the other way around. SJE
Sereno 06-08-04, 09:52 AM	Originally posted by SJE As for comments that say "Well the similarities are superficial" I retain the right to call a spade, a spade and not a "non-magical earth moving tool". If its a big robot thats terrifying in combat then its fantasy mecha whether its called a warjack or a warforged and both come from the desire to include mecha in the game, rather than any background element. The mecha came before the rationale, rather than the other way around. SJE Actually, the concept of the golem is far, far older than any sort of "mecha". Non-living things that come to life and are nigh-unstoppable have been a staple of human fear for as long as we've been creating things. I don't know what a "warjack" is, but warforged aren't big robots ... they're the same size as people. :D
SJE 06-08-04, 11:04 AM	Originally posted by Sereno I don't know what a "warjack" is, but warforged aren't big robots ... they're the same size as people. :D Not all of them, as the Huge model of the Warforged Juggernaught shows. Golems might have their place in Czech Jewish folklore, but these days the golem myth has evolved into robots. That is the common reference that the average gamer knows, not the legend of Rabbi Loew. And robots as any kid knows are kewl. SJE
Goblin-Crunch Cerial 06-08-04, 11:24 AM	Originally posted by Sereno Actually, the concept of the golem is far, far older than any sort of "mecha". Non-living things that come to life and are nigh-unstoppable have been a staple of human fear for as long as we've been creating things. I don't know what a "warjack" is, but warforged aren't big robots ... they're the same size as people. :D Ah but robots none the less. If the source book takes on the theme of Robotic Slavery... I'm 100% jack-happy. But I bet they'll water it down a little. But ever since the Brothers War saga... (Sorry to those who hate Magic)... I have been frothing at the mouth for Artifact Fantasy... It doesn’t have to be Steam punk... In a way I would prefer if it weren’t... (Me thinks Steam punk has a bad rap...) But nothing frustrates me more (That's why I have to force myself to read fantasy) than the concept of, Magic works because its there... You have one Merlin/Gandalf running around doing STUFF. To me that’s boring after the third novel… BUT if you have a world where ANYONE can learn magic... (Say D&D 3.5) What’s stopping people from saying... "Screw this farming crap.... I'll summon a bunch of earth elementals to do that for me... Screw this working crap I'll summon a bunch of Skeletons to do this work for me... It tends to deflate the wonder of such worlds but I need a reason why things are the way they are... Without it it’s like eating cotton candy. Which leads me to my last point why I’m so excited about Ebberron... The have an actual society based upon the common caster… I don’t know if it will ‘gel’ well with D&D 3.5 but I’m excited regardless.
The White Sorcerer 06-08-04, 11:33 AM	Originally posted by SJE If its a big robot thats terrifying in combat then its fantasy mecha whether its called a warjack or a warforged and both come from the desire to include mecha in the game, rather than any background element. The mecha came before the rationale, rather than the other way around. ...Right. I'm sure Hellcow will deny this. And if you refuse to believe him... pity.
Dimuscul 06-08-04, 11:39 AM	I don't see warforged like robots ... for me they are nothing more than Ent childs, with an armor nailed to them ... A robot is a complex use of mechanics supported with electronics doing the brain job
SJE 06-08-04, 12:22 PM	Nah the robot/golem archetype is well explored in literature. Its the creation of artificial life outside the natural order. Its the allegorical urge of the sterile male to experience the female birthing process, which often (in morality plays) ends in disaster- e.g. Frankensteins Monster, Rabbi Loew etc. Once created, the robot/golem/creation then becomes a metaphor for the free will of offspring. Almost all creations turn against their creator or deviate from the plan, in the same way children never turn out as a parent expects or plans. If you want discussion over whether robots can have a soul, and what effect that has on them, I point you towards Asimov and Philip K. Dick. A robot isnt just some technological creation- its any form of artifical life created abnormally. And its for those reasons, plus some more pretty superficial ones that robots are 'kewl' and popular. SJE
Dimuscul 06-08-04, 12:37 PM	do you mean that frankestein is a robot???? a flesh golem too? and homonculi? a clone? an undead? an animated chair ? an awakened toad? ... i think im lost XD
Goblin-Crunch Cerial 06-08-04, 12:53 PM	Of course Frankenstein is a robot...from a literary sense yes... Physically no. An awakened frog... Depends. Does that frog now have a sense of self, free will and a disire to interact with its environment? Is it given human characteristics. Androids, Robots, Blade Runner... even Coalition Dog Boys all follow the same theme... Artifical, disposable life... designed to do work that is deemed unsuitable for humans. If you want to be literal Warfoged are not robots… They can’t be. BUT do Warforged fit the Automaton Theme… could be? And I think yes: they fought in a war for what reason... so humans wouldn't die.
SJE 06-08-04, 01:05 PM	I'd define the creature (or Goblins definition of 'Automaton' is a good one) we are discussing as an artificial lifeform made in the image of man. It is usually the hubris of Man acting like God and creating life in their own image that is the centre of the morality tale. The fact Man does not realise that Free Will is integral to that image usually leads to disaster While undead are not quite Automatons, they could be in certain circumstances. ('Day of the Dead' comes to mind) SJE
N'wah 06-08-04, 01:14 PM	Originally posted by Goblin-Crunch Cerial BUT if you have a world where ANYONE can learn magic... (Say D&D 3.5) What’s stopping people from saying... "Screw this farming crap.... I'll summon a bunch of earth elementals to do that for me... Screw this working crap I'll summon a bunch of Skeletons to do this work for me... The same logic that made serfs farm for a living instead of picking up a sword and shield and defending themselves instead of pledging loyalty to a nobleman- they were to busy farming to stay alive to do it. Even though D&D sometimes doesn't show it, it takes time, effort, and money to learn magic. Even the magic magewrights use is kinda lame- in another thread on this board someone's working on an arcane adept, because they would be able to cast more spells, though I'm not sure if that's the idea of the magewright. From what I understand, the Halruuans and Shades from FR have more magic per commoner than anyone in Eberron, by virtue of taking the Magical Heritage feat- a 1st-level magewright gets, what two 0-level spells, when Magical Heritage gives three? I won't touch the "warforged/warjacks are robots" argument- it seems to me to boil down to opinion, no matter what facts are brought to the table. As long as either (or both, in your case) have something you want, that's whats important.
Goblin-Crunch Cerial 06-08-04, 01:57 PM	An excellent point, N’wah, Back in the days where you had to do everything by hand and with a mule. Farming was hard… But the moment the industrial revolution came and gave the farmer… tractors… few and fewer people needed to be on the farm Thus you had more and more people migrating to the cities. (Please forgive my over simplified explanation) SO… What happens when one person (through the use of magic) can do the work of twenty normal people? The landowners are gonna say… Gee I only have to pay this one guy X when I have to pay these 20 people x…plus healthcare, housing… The landowner is gonna choose the magewright every time. So what happens to the people who can’t do magic? Like’ I’ve said, I’m really curious how the creators of Ebberron incorporate Warforged into their campaign world. NOTE: I’ll be miffed as hell if they say, “During the Great War House X created Warforged to bolster their defenses. But after their fall in 109a the secret of creation was forever lost…”
N'wah 06-08-04, 02:13 PM	You make good points yourself, Mr. Goblin Crunch. Does that come in Golbin CrunchBerries, by the way? Or maybe PeanutGoblin Crunch? You gotta merchandise. Back to the serious stuff. The only reason I don't see magewrights becoming the only class (well, replacing commoners, at least) is that the magewright's magic only makes him marginally better than a commoner at everyday tasks. An unseen servant sure keeps the shack clean, but it could never work the field because it's too weak. Most of a magewright's spells either augment craft (the magecraft spell adds a marginal bonus to craft checks; I'm not sure how much) or make everyday life easier to bear (light, prestidigitation, mend, etc. They still don't improve efficiency enough to merit less unskilled laborers, they make a skilled laborer's work slightly easier (and let him hire less help- that could cause less people flocking to cities for work, in fact).
Sereno 06-08-04, 02:45 PM	Originally posted by SJE Nah the robot/golem archetype is well explored in literature. Its the creation of artificial life outside the natural order. Its the allegorical urge of the sterile male to experience the female birthing process, which often (in morality plays) ends in disaster- e.g. Frankensteins Monster, Rabbi Loew etc. So basically, your point is that you want to call it a robot ... so you can call it a "mecha" ... so you can call it magitech (and Final-Fantasy-deriviative)? The fact that they have "souls" like the rest of the "people" doesn't matter ... they're still just "kewl fantasy mecha". Hmmm. I'm not really sure what your argument actually is....
Alathayn 06-08-04, 03:19 PM	I won't touch the "warforged/warjacks are robots" argument- it seems to me to boil down to opinion, no matter what facts are brought to the table. Exactly, that's why I didn' comment as well. About keeping magwrights from replacing commoners. Well experts are better than commoners, do they replace them? No. The thing is that even among the "normal" people there are those with more or less potential or money or training. PS: Does Goblin-Crunch Cerial stay crunchy in milk? And does it come with a toy in it?
SJE 06-08-04, 07:58 PM	Originally posted by Sereno So basically, your point is that you want to call it a robot ... so you can call it a "mecha" ... so you can call it magitech (and Final-Fantasy-deriviative)? The fact that they have "souls" like the rest of the "people" doesn't matter ... they're still just "kewl fantasy mecha". Hmmm. I'm not really sure what your argument actually is.... My argument was that the warforged/warjacks are thematically identical and inserted into the setting for the sake of 'kewlness'. The extended discussion was that something was a robot or automaton regardless of whether it was magical, technological or even biological- it shares the same conceptual space and differentiating them is just a form of pedantism. SJE
drss 06-09-04, 01:53 AM	I dont wish to dis Eberron, I have came to like what I am seeing as a newbie, it sounds like my cup of tea. Although, the issue of warforged race.. I am neutral to it. It was not one of the things that draw me to like Eberron, but neither does it serve as a turn-off like it does to some people. But I have to admit, the above post has a point. Warforged does seem to be put into Eberron for the sake of "coolness". There is certainly motive I can see for doing this, after all, Eberron is supposed to attract younger people to it and it seems to be a commonly agreed-upon thing that Eberron IS designed to be cool to younger people and that the warforged race of "robots" is part of that plan. It isnt hard to believe at all that this is the case. Although, I must say that the assumption of "robot attracts kids" on the side of WotC is a silly one. That is a bit too stereotypical. I know very little about Iron Kingdom, but I have looked at a few things since I saw this post a few days ago. Aside from the inclusion of guns in IK, the 2 do seem remarkably similar. At first, I thought perhaps IK is more like a steampunk game with magic, but looking at the book, it seems they too are set in a sword and plate armor world. Can someone enlighten me to the differences b/w IK and EB?
N'wah 06-09-04, 07:43 AM	I think considering that Keith planned to put warforged (or some incarnation thereof) into the game since day one, it was less that Wizards said, "what would really draw the younger players in? Robots!" and more, "Well, it's got some new spins on some old themes... like the interesting histories of the old races... and, hold on, is that a living construct?". Sure, the warforged turn off a few players, and others simply don't think they're that great. I think the only part that rubs people raw about the "it's got robots because they're cool" argument is that it dismisses that, yes, they are cool, like that's a bad thing. So are longswords. So is magic. I play a game because I like the cool things in it. If it wasn't cool, why would I play it? Wizard PR Guy: Ok, thanks and welcome to our focus group testing for a new campaign world. Here's your campaign write-up guides- try to get the "feel" of the campaign, and I'll answer any questions as necessary. Random Dude: Um, excuse me... there's no magic-using classes. In fact, the only race/class combo appears to be human commoner. Wizard PR Guy: Well, yeah. This is Serf: The Everlasting Toil;. It's pure roleplaying- no high magic, no low magic, no prestige classes muddling everything up, no interesting race options... just you and skill focus (Profession [farmer]). We do have a grat chart to randomly roll for Childhood Misfortunes, Missing Limbs and Disabilities, and Untimely Death! They're really great charts. Nothing said here will make the warforged any more appealing to anyone, though it's not hard to make them less. I can uderstand that difference of opinion will keep some people from jumping full on into a campaign (something about Ravenloft turned me off for years- oh yeah, I'm not a big fan of Gothic horror). That's fine. But I hardly think there's a memo floating about at Wiazrds that reads: "ATTN- MARKETING: D&D needs robots ASAP! Make sure they are kewl, not mad lame." There's another of my two cents. You know, if someone started taking all the spare change thrown into this thread, they'd probably be able to buy a lottery ticket by now. ;)
Ishorn 06-09-04, 11:13 AM	I have been a big fan of the Eberron campaign since the Gen Con 2003 announcement and that is where I first saw the Warforged. When I first saw the sketches of the Warforged I thought of the Tin Woodsman of Oz. I did not think of robots or golems. I have to say that I liked the Iron Kingdom setting until I met the people from Privateer Press. They just came off as that had a great setting and they had a fan base but the role playing campaign can wait. They were focused on miniatures and taking on GW for sales. Whenever anyone would ask when the campaign book for IK was coming out. Their response was don't worry you will want to buy it when it hits store shelves. I believe that these books would never see the light of day if Eberron was not the chosen campaign setting. It has enough similarities to some IK fans that now Privateer is scrambling to get the players guide and campaign book out.
Timespike 06-09-04, 11:46 AM	Originally posted by Harmony's Sorrow *shivers up my spine after looking at Iron Kingdoms* I wont buy that... In fact I'll just pretend I didn't even see it... Huh? What's so bad about it? Privateer press stuff is usually at least as well balanced as wizards' stuff is, and their monsternomicon was actually BETTER than the WotC monster manual. It gives a LOT more info about each monster, providing adventure hooks, harvestable parts of the monster's anatomy, etc. If the pattern holds true, the Iron Kingdoms setting will be every bit as good as Eberron, just very different.
Timespike 06-09-04, 11:54 AM	Originally posted by SJE Eshk! Have you read the first IK adventure "Witchblade"? its totally noir. A beuatiful young girl on a revenge trip. The PC's not realising she is the villain and not the victim until its too late? then everything goes to hell in a handbasket? As for comments that say "Well the similarities are superficial" I retain the right to call a spade, a spade and not a "non-magical earth moving tool". If its a big robot thats terrifying in combat then its fantasy mecha whether its called a warjack or a warforged and both come from the desire to include mecha in the game, rather than any background element. The mecha came before the rationale, rather than the other way around. SJE Where are you coming to this conclusion? Even the interview with the designers doesn't support it.
Rulandor 06-09-04, 12:02 PM	What on earth has a Warforged to to with a Mecha? A Warforged is a character, not a vehicle! And a darn cool character, come to that.
SJE 06-09-04, 04:03 PM	Originally posted by Timespike Where are you coming to this conclusion? Even the interview with the designers doesn't support it. I believe your statement is wrong. Here is a quote from the interview to back my assertion- "Once it made the jump from the ten-pager to the 125-pager, I got to meet with the people at Wizards to hear what they actually liked and didn't like about the idea, so the world went through some major changes at that point, and it was at that stage that many ideas that are now central to the world--things like the warforged and the shifters--came into existence" So the original Hellcow submission- no warforged. Then he meets WotC for the first time and robots and shapeshifters (another concept with lengthy literary connotations) are added in to the mix. Robots are kewl. Robots=sales. I'm not saying this is the wrong way to design a game, merely that this year is seeing lots of fantasy robots/automations SJE
crazysamaritan 06-09-04, 04:09 PM	It's a conspiracy, ya hear me? IA is coming back, with his "I, Robot" and forcing his creations on other worlds entirely. Soon the world shall be cybernetic organisms = borg for short!
Hellcow 06-09-04, 05:48 PM	Originally posted by SJE So the original Hellcow submission- no warforged. Then he meets WotC for the first time and robots and shapeshifters are added in to the mix. Robots are kewl. Robots=sales. You're misconstruing the info, SJE. Yes, it is true: Warforged were not contained in my 10-page proposal, which was, among other things, trying to cram the entire world into 10 pages. That does not mean that I showed up and WotC said "Put robots in this. Kids like robots." When the semi-finalists were brought to WotC, we got to find out what elements of our submission appealed to the judges and which did not. We did some brainstorming with the team that would be working on the CSB, whichever setting was chosen (Bill Slaviscek, James Wyatt, Chris Perkins). This was brainstorming, not any sort of corporate mandate. All of the people in the room were designers, and there were no instructions, just ideas. One of the things they liked about the setting was the way that magic was integrated into society, and we discussed various ways that this could be expanded upon in the 125-page story bible; the idea of the warforged came up as part of brainstorming on magical warfare. And for what it's worth, I'd never even heard of Iron Kingdoms at the time, and it's not like anyone said "Oh, Privateer is doing fantasy robots, we should do that too." So yes, warforged were not present in the 10-pager. But the idea of a construct race made sense for the setting and was a logical extension of the core ideas. It simply wasn't something I'd put a focus on -- among other things, because I was guessing that WotC wanted to focus on the core books and therefore I didn't want to add a lot of new races. Ditto for the shifters.
drss 06-09-04, 06:27 PM	Which is a shame, really.. None of the new races did anything for me. I dont particularly like or dislike them. I dare say I am quite neutral in their existence. I do think however, that it isn't hard for one to believe of be misled into thinking that this is a "robots are cool to kids, lets put it in" ploy. After all, one could argue that the story reasons of putting the warforged into the setting (which is, the magical war) is just created to justify the existence of robots in the setting (instead of just putting them there without explaining). One could argue this due to the fact that there really is little need to give a soul to a weapon, which is what the warforged are. It makes little sense that one would create an army of creatures and give them free will and feelings, so they can grasp the concept of revenge, rebellion, and such. Unless giving them a soul provides sufficient advantages in war to justify the obvious threats and dangers of giving weapons free will. Looking at the Lord of Blades, it doesn't seem too hard to believe this. Obviously, I am a newbie who has yet to read the book, so it may turn out that there are infact good reasons to take those risks to create the warforged. And I hope so. I dont like plot holes. Another thing to support the "robot is cool lets use them" thing is the cover. The warforged is the center-piece to represent the setting. Perhaps "robots are cool" was not the intention, but it kind of seem to me in has BECOME a marketing ploy. (And again, "kids like robots" is a seriously lame notion from my pov..) And to those who mentioned "mecha", either they have a serious lack of knowledge to what a mecha is, or what a warforged is. And I thought I was a newbie. But neither could I blame them. When you know nothing of the setting and just look at the cover, what do you see? From what I have learned so far of Eberron, the warforged race is not nearly the best choice to represent the setting. One could argue that it is a good choice because it is a product of the Last War, it is a magically created living construct that represent this world's close ties to magic, and it demonstrates the idea that this setting is unlike those that came before. BUT, these things are not something one can tell just be looking at the warforged. Without the knowledge of some lore of the setting, the warforged has nearly no meaning.. heck, one would NOT -just know- that this is not a mecha nor a robot, but a living construct like a golem with a soul. When one looks at it, what they see is a robot (or the less oberservant/knowledgeable, a mecha). I am a newbie, so take it from me. When I saw the cover, I couldnt tell what this world "feels like" or look like. What did establish this knowledge -just like that-, were pictures of the halfings (it shows the unique culture and how it applies to an existing DnD race. right there I can see that Eberron is culturally rich and has unique takes on the races), and the picture of Sharn (although a closer view, or a different angle of the city would help even more) shows me the feel of the world. Warforged, did not. And it is going to be problematic to some DM to show players the "robot cover" and present to them the new setting they will play in.
Hellcow 06-09-04, 08:55 PM	Originally posted by drss After all, one could argue that the story reasons of putting the warforged into the setting (which is, the magical war) is just created to justify the existence of robots in the setting (instead of just putting them there without explaining). Yes, except that the war is a central theme of the setting, and has far more effects on the world than simply justifying the existence of warforged. And if WotC already knew that much about what they wanted -- war, robots, and dinosaurs, because these are kewl -- why go to all the trouble of spending $160K and untold staff hours going through the setting search in the first place? One could argue this due to the fact that there really is little need to give a soul to a weapon, which is what the warforged are. I agree with you on all counts. And in Eberron, this was never Cannith's intention. The goal was to create sentient golems, who could respond to evolving tactical situations, take initiative, and operate without human supervision (which, if I understand correctly, makes them entirely unlike warjacks). They had no particular desire to imbue their creations with souls, nor any idea how to do such a thing even if they had wanted to. The kalashtar in particular are very curious to find out where warforged souls have come from; the fact that there may have been warforged-like constructs in Xen'drik could be tied to this mystery. Another thing to support the "robot is cool lets use them" thing is the cover. The warforged is the center-piece to represent the setting. True. However, the original cover showed three different images from the WAR picture, and people hated that cover (I don't know if that's why it was changed or not). The "single image in the center" is the look they're going for; Shadows of the Last War, IRC, has a Valenar elf in the central circle. So I agree, the warforged on the cover is the image people are given to say "This is Eberron" -- but I don't believe that this represents an intention to continue to focus on the warforged. The flash ad on the Wizards site has no warforged. I am a newbie, so take it from me. When I saw the cover, I couldnt tell what this world "feels like" or look like. What did establish this knowledge -just like that-, were pictures of the halfings (it shows the unique culture and how it applies to an existing DnD race. right there I can see that Eberron is culturally rich and has unique takes on the races) I respect that, and I appreciate the fact that you are offering suggestions instead of just criticizing. But at the same time, I think that a halfling would be a disastrously bad choice. That one image of the Talenta halflings shown at Gencon did not cause most people to say "Ah! An interesting new take on the standard D&D races." Instead, it brought on a deluge of "so this whole setting is about dinosaurs?" As you've said with the warforged, if you are stuck with a single image, that will shape the viewer's image of the world -- and if the one thing on the cover is a halfling on a dinosaur, even I would assume that they were central to the world. And while warforged are not particularly common, every campaign I've run has dealt with warforged in one way or another -- while so far, no-one's actually made their way to the Talenta Plains to encounter the dinosaurs. (Now, you may have meant a Talenta halfling off the dinosaur, in which case, fair enough, though I think the warforged works better for me). and the picture of Sharn (although a closer view, or a different angle of the city would help even more) shows me the feel of the world. On reflection, I agree with you. Obviously the CSB is out, so it's a moot point, but that is an excellent choice if you need a single image. Thanks again for being constructive!
Moderator 06-09-04, 10:01 PM	What would be wrong with doing something "just because it is cool" anyway? The story behind the mechanics is what has made me sit up and pay attention to Eberron so far. The story justifies the additions well. WotC is making their most mature setting to date by delving deeper into the fact that even a few people with access to magic can cause fundamental world paradigm shifts. IK's Warjacks basically are golems. Not PC options like the Warforged. But I do think that IK and Ebberon can be compared ( and favorably ) on many levels. They both seek to intelligently deviate from the normal high fantasy world where magic exists soley for the adventuring crowd. I'm sure both will provide thousands of adventuring goups a lot of joy for years to come. I'll be checking them both out! ;)
Goblin-Crunch Cerial 06-11-04, 06:22 PM	Originally posted by Moderator . They both seek to intelligently deviate from the normal high fantasy world where magic exists soley for the adventuring crowd. ;) HeyMod, for you only second post thats pretty deep... and I 100% agree. So... I could care less if the Warforged were nothing more than an attempt to be kewl…Regardless they are the main reason why I will buy the book. And I will read Ebberron searching for answers to the following questions: 1.Why were the Warforged created in man’s image…? (Quadrupeds would have been more effective in rough terran.) 2. Was there Mageforged before or after the soul? (I.e. could warforge cast spells before they gained a spark?) 3. Did the origional creators perceive the soul as an improvement or as a defect? 4. Do Warforged naturaly seek out the company of their own kind? 5. Does the common population fear or respect the golems? And to any who would take me on a bet… I’ll bet twenty bucks that one of the first THREE Ebberron books will have a Warforged as main character. The main theme will be his quest to find a place he can call home. (I have thisimage of a warforge saying, "Forget this warrior stuff... I want to be a farmer..."
drss 06-11-04, 06:22 PM	Heres the thing. I dont think there is actually anything wrong with "put it in because it is cool". I am simply pointing out that it could be a possible motivation, which I may be getting the wrong idea but some seem to defend that this is out of the question. So I am not saying if this is good or bad, but as a matter of fact. I have no idea what warjacks are (did not know what IK is and did not read too much into it), but I think it is understandable that someone could get the wrong impression, especially people who are in the position I was in may be a week ago. If you presented to me IK and EB, the first thing I'd probably notice are the pictures, and soon after derive such conclusions that they are very similar. Lucky for me, I did not have to go through that thanks to the help from various members here who took the time to help out the newbies. Well, Hellcow, in that case, at least the Sharn book will feature Sharn on the cover. I hope they dont change it (or if they do, a better angle). But really, what makes IK and EB similar and different? This is, after all, a "vs" topic. We seem to be way off here. BTW, I am Canadian, and in my area, no EB yet. I guess we are on the same boat as Americans. EDIT in response to the above: Nor would I care. Either way, warforged doesnt make or break the setting for me. The setting is appealing to me on other merits. As for the novel, I think I'll have to agree. But I'd want to see a non-epic, low-profile story in urban settings. Noir over pulp.
Ishorn 06-12-04, 08:59 AM	Let me get something straight. What some people are saying is that WoTC had Keith add the Warforged to sell the setting to kids because in younger peoples eyes "robots are cool". Then why couldn't Privateer Press had that same thought when they created the Steamjacks. I have been told that they created their wargame because the company wanted to make a profit. Miniatures I guess equal dollars. So in thinking this way wouldn't it make sense that when the company thought up the idea of the Iron Kingdom they said "hey what would set our setting apart and attract younger people to our product. I know kids think robots are cool. So lets put robots in our setting."
drss 06-12-04, 04:05 PM	I didnt read every post in the thread, but it never occured to me that people are saying IK couldnt do the same thing.. In fact, I thought someone said EB copied IK. though I could be way off.
Minister_for_Moral_Truth 06-12-04, 04:58 PM	I'm going to stick me neb in with something I posted on the IK forum yesterday, and with a quote: "One of the main reasons that I like both Erberon and the IK and, come to think of it, Discworld, is that, reguardless of all the stuff flying about, the world works. For all that the street lighting is provided by continual light spells, the dockworkers are assisted by steam-driven golemoids or the City Watch is constantly pestered to employ a vampire to improve inter-species relations, there's a world backing it all up where you can see how your average person goes about life, unlike the (distinctly artificial seeming) imposed "medivil culture with this and that added" that primary D&D seems to push. Each of them take the basic model, add a few extras and push it to their logical conclusion, and don't try to force it to look Tolkienesque (where magic is about as scarce as any fantasy setting with any magic in it at all that I can think of)." The quote is from the estemed mister Pratchett, sometime last year: "I do get some stick from newcomers to fantasy who think I’ve nicked things from the Harry Potter books. The trouble is that when I patiently explain that something in a book of mine published in 1986 probably wasn’t plagiarised from a Harry Potter book published 15 years later, they get very excitable and red in the face and start saying, ‘Oh, so you’re claiming that she got the idea from you, are you?’ And then I have to spend time explaining that no, I’m not, and that mostly no-one pinches ideas from anyone. Wizards always wear pointy hats, there have been a lot of magical universities, and so-on. These ideas are generic - That’s why they call fantasy a genre, for heaven’s sake. The trouble is that many fans, and most kids, think writers ‘get’ plot ideas from somewhere, instead of making them up. And that a lot of kids think that books were published in the order that they personally read them. I blame the government. Everyone else does."
Hellcow 06-12-04, 05:24 PM	Originally posted by Minister_for_Moral_Truth mostly no-one pinches ideas from anyone. Well quoted. I can't say how much overlap there is or isn't between Eberron and IK, because all I've seen of IK is the website, and that only recently. They may identical, though what with the use of gunpowder in IK it seems unlikely. But if so, it's a coincidence. There are only so many ideas in the world!
stembolt 06-12-04, 06:19 PM	That one image of the Talenta halflings shown at Gencon did not cause most people to say "Ah! An interesting new take on the standard D&D races." Instead, it brought on a deluge of "so this whole setting is about dinosaurs?" Actually I was at GenCon and almost universally people liked the halflings on dinosaurs. That is the people who were at the seminar. Later when people were hearing about the setting from other people the conversations would go like this: 1: So there is this cool new setting 2: What’s wrong with Forgotten Realms 1: I don’t know. Anyway they showed us all these great pictures. This flying airship, an orc on stilts and these halflings riding dinosaurs. 2: Halflings riding dinosaurs? That sounds stupid. All halflings should be fat. Almost universally the people badmouthing the setting never even saw the presentation. The problem is that WotC cannot easily determine who is badmouthing the setting because they actually dislike it and those who were going to dislike it no matter what.
drss 06-12-04, 07:32 PM	Well, again, what I must say is that one cannot blame those who badmouth EB. EB seems to me like, as a fellow member mentioned, Discworld. Where it may be just too different and complicated to explain in a few sentences. You put dinos and halflings together in a sentence, that may sound stupid to some. But one cannot really -get- what that combination is like until they learn more. And due to this, EB seem to be harder to market. And just something I realize about "selling coolness", IK would be more guilty of it than EB on that. While I can identify with Pratchett in the issue (there are many things I hold dear to and suffer from the naive views of children who like to think themselves know-it-alls..) I must disagree that writers mostly dont take things from other places. In fact, this is often done. Things are sometimes combined to form new things but certainly, "stealing" is inevitable. Sometimes you dont even do it intentionally, but as a person, one is affected by their experience in life and interactions from various sources.
stone_dog 06-15-04, 05:05 PM	If anybody is still interested, you can look here (http://www.privateerpress.com/goodies/files/privateer_press_IKCG_preview_01.pdf) and here (http://www.privateerpress.com/goodies/files/privateer_press_IKCG_preview_02.pdf) for some more examples of how much the two really aren't the same. From the animosity towards human spell casters shown by the mage hunters (many elves believe humans are killing their goddess with human magics) to revisions of clerical domains IK is taking a much different road than Eberron is. They are both very cool things though.
Timespike 06-29-04, 01:24 AM	Originally posted by Hellcow Well quoted. I can't say how much overlap there is or isn't between Eberron and IK, because all I've seen of IK is the website, and that only recently. They may identical, though what with the use of gunpowder in IK it seems unlikely. But if so, it's a coincidence. There are only so many ideas in the world! IK and Eberron are alike in one important way: they're MUCH more believeable extrapolations of how all of this magic has affected things by being around so long. That said, A ten-Person team from IK looks like this: 1. Paladin of Morrow, a human, armed with the usual sword and shield, only the shield might have a gun mounted in it, and the sword has a heating coil in the base. 2. Nyss elf, armed with a massive, two-handed sword, tattooed and looking all tough and scary in a long leather coat with a pressed leaf design. 3. Trollkin fighter, al muscles and no nose, wielding a humungous axe and clomping around in an armored apron. 4. Rare good cleric of Cyriss, armed with a mechanical spinning flail, wearing an armored apron and a weird one-piece helmet/mantle thingy, totally mystified about this ability that clerics of Morrow have to "turn undead". She's wearing a backpack brimming with gears, spare pistons, and the like and often assists the gobber with his steamjack. 5. A high-level human ranger, armed with a scoped, muzzleloading rifle, who, despite a wisdom of 16 and 8 levels in the ranger class, has never cast a spell and wouldn't know how to if he wanted to. 6. A massive ogrun pistol-mage, armed with a pair of fearsome-looking bayonetted handguns crackling with arcane energy. 7. A gobber with more tools than he or the utterly mindless steamjack that clanks along behind him (and that he's incessantly shovelling more coal into) could ever count stuffed into pockets all over his person. 8. A surly-looking dwarven warrior, armed with axe and rifle, fiddling with the spyglass he purchased for 10 gp back in the last town while feeling his freshly-shaved chin with his other hand. 9. A sinister-looking fellow in a black cloak that covers his entire face. The one hand that protrudes from beneath the seemingly endless mass of black fabric carries an iron-shod quarterstaff. (The party's druid) 10. A scholarly-looking fellow, wearing spectacles and a comfortable-lloking set of clothes, carring several books, and a blunderbuss (the party wizard) Now compare that to an equivalent eberron team. 1. Human Paladin/Cleric/Exorcist of the silver flame. Dressed in gleaming chainmail and armed with the favored weapon of his faith, a longbow, he scans the area with ice-blue eyes as the sun glints off his flametouched iron holy symbol. 2. Aeridian elf, his face painted in a skull motif, and carrying a scimitar, he's the very picture of a cleric of the undying court. His bodyguard, a moderately-powerful deathless warrior, walks along next to him at an easy pace, chatting pleasantly about life long ago. 3. Warforged juggernaut. A massive, but surprisingly graceful-looking warfoged covered in a veritable forest of armor spikes ambles along, occassionally dropping comments into the elves' philosophy discussion and asking the deathless questions about the past. His journal sits in his backpack. He's hoping to share it with a friend back in sharn when he returns from his latest mission. 4. A halfling barbarian from the talentia planes, dressed in what looks shockingly like native american garb, with an assortment of weird and wicked-looking razor-sharp weapons, perched atop a dinosaur, which he nudges on while carving a small replica of the beast he's on. 5. A shifter ranger with multiple levels in the weretouched master class. Even when in his unshifted form, his weretiger heritage is obvious from the dark stripes that run through his reddish hair. He regularly casts entangle on enemies to hold them in place before using his pounce ability to leap on them and rip them to bloody sherds with his claws and teeth. 6. A gnome, looking as most gnomes do, like a walking library. The flute strapped to her thigh distingushed her as a bard, but it's obvious from the scrolls, books, and pages of sheet music that what really drew her to the bard preofession is the odd bits of trivia, not the musical training. 7. A dwarven artificer, loaded down with so many magical items it makes the head spin. He sticks close to the warjack, and when a fight starts the two of them make for a VERY nasty hammer-and-anvil team. 8. A half-orc, looking proud and almost regal in his wrapping of furs and sharply-tailored leather armor. His scimitar is well-oiled and razor-sharp. He's one of the gatekeepers, and he's very proud of his station. 9. A human monk, wearing only pants and sandals, with what looks like a huge, alaborate tattoo across his back. (In reality, it's a siberys dragonmark) his weapon of choice? A double-bladed sword. 10. A somewhat odd-looking fellow, who seems to be human but looks just a little too perfect. He wears an odd assortment of crystalline items and you have the feeling he could harm you with a thought, were he inclined to. (Kalashtar Psion) Now, both groups sound pretty cool, but they DON'T sound a lot alike to me. Another notable difference. Eberron has everything in normal D&D with things added in. The Iron Kingdoms have SOME of what's in normal D&D, but with a LOT of things taken away. Raise dead is a 9th-level spell, no planar travel exists, no gnomes or halflings, no orcs or half-orcs, lots of the iconic D&D monsters were out BEFORE the SRD changed, Clerics of certain gods can't turn undead, rangers don't cast spells, etc. A lot of things have been added that are totally new, too. Technology is MUCH higher, with steam technology and firearms, clockworks, and mass production. Also: Eberron is ultra-cinematic, swashbuckling, and freewheeling. The iron kingdoms, by comparison, are dark, gritty and much more simulationistic. The worlds are entirely different in many respects.
Ishorn 06-29-04, 08:58 AM	Originally posted by Timespike IK and Eberron are alike in one important way: they're MUCH more believeable extrapolations of how all of this magic has affected things by being around so long. That said, A ten-Person team from IK looks like this: 1. Paladin of Morrow, a human, armed with the usual sword and shield, only the shield might have a gun mounted in it, and the sword has a heating coil in the base. 2. Nyss elf, armed with a massive, two-handed sword, tattooed and looking all tough and scary in a long leather coat with a pressed leaf design. 3. Trollkin fighter, al muscles and no nose, wielding a humungous axe and clomping around in an armored apron. 4. Rare good cleric of Cyriss, armed with a mechanical spinning flail, wearing an armored apron and a weird one-piece helmet/mantle thingy, totally mystified about this ability that clerics of Morrow have to "turn undead". She's wearing a backpack brimming with gears, spare pistons, and the like and often assists the gobber with his steamjack. 5. A high-level human ranger, armed with a scoped, muzzleloading rifle, who, despite a wisdom of 16 and 8 levels in the ranger class, has never cast a spell and wouldn't know how to if he wanted to. 6. A massive ogrun pistol-mage, armed with a pair of fearsome-looking bayonetted handguns crackling with arcane energy. 7. A gobber with more tools than he or the utterly mindless steamjack that clanks along behind him (and that he's incessantly shovelling more coal into) could ever count stuffed into pockets all over his person. 8. A surly-looking dwarven warrior, armed with axe and rifle, fiddling with the spyglass he purchased for 10 gp back in the last town while feeling his freshly-shaved chin with his other hand. 9. A sinister-looking fellow in a black cloak that covers his entire face. The one hand that protrudes from beneath the seemingly endless mass of black fabric carries an iron-shod quarterstaff. (The party's druid) 10. A scholarly-looking fellow, wearing spectacles and a comfortable-lloking set of clothes, carring several books, and a blunderbuss (the party wizard) Now compare that to an equivalent eberron team. 1. Human Paladin/Cleric/Exorcist of the silver flame. Dressed in gleaming chainmail and armed with the favored weapon of his faith, a longbow, he scans the area with ice-blue eyes as the sun glints off his flametouched iron holy symbol. 2. Aeridian elf, his face painted in a skull motif, and carrying a scimitar, he's the very picture of a cleric of the undying court. His bodyguard, a moderately-powerful deathless warrior, walks along next to him at an easy pace, chatting pleasantly about life long ago. 3. Warforged juggernaut. A massive, but surprisingly graceful-looking warfoged covered in a veritable forest of armor spikes ambles along, occassionally dropping comments into the elves' philosophy discussion and asking the deathless questions about the past. His journal sits in his backpack. He's hoping to share it with a friend back in sharn when he returns from his latest mission. 4. A halfling barbarian from the talentia planes, dressed in what looks shockingly like native american garb, with an assortment of weird and wicked-looking razor-sharp weapons, perched atop a dinosaur, which he nudges on while carving a small replica of the beast he's on. 5. A shifter ranger with multiple levels in the weretouched master class. Even when in his unshifted form, his weretiger heritage is obvious from the dark stripes that run through his reddish hair. He regularly casts entangle on enemies to hold them in place before using his pounce ability to leap on them and rip them to bloody sherds with his claws and teeth. 6. A gnome, looking as most gnomes do, like a walking library. The flute strapped to her thigh distingushed her as a bard, but it's obvious from the scrolls, books, and pages of sheet music that what really drew her to the bard preofession is the odd bits of trivia, not the musical training. 7. A dwarven artificer, loaded down with so many magical items it makes the head spin. He sticks close to the warjack, and when a fight starts the two of them make for a VERY nasty hammer-and-anvil team. 8. A half-orc, looking proud and almost regal in his wrapping of furs and sharply-tailored leather armor. His scimitar is well-oiled and razor-sharp. He's one of the gatekeepers, and he's very proud of his station. 9. A human monk, wearing only pants and sandals, with what looks like a huge, alaborate tattoo across his back. (In reality, it's a siberys dragonmark) his weapon of choice? A double-bladed sword. 10. A somewhat odd-looking fellow, who seems to be human but looks just a little too perfect. He wears an odd assortment of crystalline items and you have the feeling he could harm you with a thought, were he inclined to. (Kalashtar Psion) Now, both groups sound pretty cool, but they DON'T sound a lot alike to me. Another notable difference. Eberron has everything in normal D&D with things added in. The Iron Kingdoms have SOME of what's in normal D&D, but with a LOT of things taken away. Raise dead is a 9th-level spell, no planar travel exists, no gnomes or halflings, no orcs or half-orcs, lots of the iconic D&D monsters were out BEFORE the SRD changed, Clerics of certain gods can't turn undead, rangers don't cast spells, etc. A lot of things have been added that are totally new, too. Technology is MUCH higher, with steam technology and firearms, clockworks, and mass production. Also: Eberron is ultra-cinematic, swashbuckling, and freewheeling. The iron kingdoms, by comparison, are dark, gritty and much more simulationistic. The worlds are entirely different in many respects. This is the most thorough, objective, and positive post I have seen on this subject. Keep up the good work.
crazysamaritan 06-29-04, 09:53 AM	Good quotes, Minister. I think Mr. Pratchet would have gotten along with Asimov. Both have the "crazy ideas syndrome" Terry Prachet said: "The trouble is that many fans, and most kids, think writers ‘get’ plot ideas from somewhere, instead of making them up." Issac Asimov said (paraphrased): "Whenever I am asked about the crazy ideas I get, they are almost invaribly crazy. Never interesting, facinating, or intriguing, just crazy. At first I tried to give an accurate answer, but in my later years, I turn the question around to them, and say if you ever ever discover how not to get these crazy ideas, please tell me."
Hellcow 06-29-04, 08:07 PM	Originally posted by Timespike That said, A ten-Person team from IK looks like this: After reading that, I definitely need to check out IK! Nice job distinguishing the two.
FenrysStar 07-01-04, 07:10 PM	I have much of Iron Kingdoms and it is very grtty with an eye towards realism. IK is very grudging to magic for the most part. They prefer giving us cursed weapons and metal monsters. Another steampunkish game you might consider is Warcraft and while they too have a lot of magic it's a corrupting force and more than one standard class was made into a prestige class to preserve the "balance" of the setting. But Eberron to me is to Steampunk what SpellJammer was to space opera. But for me I like to take bits and pieces of everyone else's stuff to make a really interesting campaign. That and it keeps players on their toes as they never know from whence your taking a given plot device
MrFilthyIke 07-01-04, 08:11 PM	As an owner of both Eberron AND the Iron Kingdoms Character Guide (sold at Origins), all *I* can say is....the more I read the two, the more dissimilar they get. There are some common traits, but definately different flavors. Both, are 100% top-notch works. :)
FenrysStar 07-01-04, 08:22 PM	In certain ways the two are as diferent as night and day are they not?
ChrisSuch 07-01-04, 09:28 PM	Hiya, I am a Privateer Press (the publishers of IK) nut and initially thought Eberron was a rip off of IK. As I did more reading though I discovered lots and lots of differences and was so impressed with Eberron I bought the setting and dropped a new party into it. I think it is safe to say that both settings are top notch and suitable different. Cheers, Chris.
MrFilthyIke 07-01-04, 09:30 PM	Originally posted by FenrysStar In certain ways the two are as diferent as night and day are they not? There is overlap, and radical differences at the same time. I'd say the books were $70USD well spent. :) (note, Eberron was $30 w/ discount, and IKCG was at origins so NO discount)
Timespike 07-01-04, 11:32 PM	Originally posted by Hellcow After reading that, I definitely need to check out IK! Nice job distinguishing the two. ESPECIALLY coming from you, that's a massive compliment. thanks!
The White Sorcerer 07-02-04, 02:29 AM	Originally posted by FenrysStar But Eberron to me is to Steampunk what SpellJammer was to space opera. How exactly is Eberron 'steampunk'? The only remotely steampunkish thing in Eberron is the lightning rail.
FenrysStar 07-02-04, 06:13 PM	The Lightning Rail and the flying ships ar part of the what I see as Steampunk mixed with magic . In many ways the Warforged themselves are indicators of Steampunk. Guns would be nice but are not necessary. But this is mainly my opinion from what I have studied of the genre
Goblin-Crunch Cerial 07-03-04, 10:58 AM	You know... I don't consider Ebberon (after reding it) to be Steampunk. Magic replaces technology not magic suppliments technology... tke a look at the artwork (yes-I'm superficial)... Nothings dirty... You can't have Steampunk without a little grit...
The_Declaration 07-03-04, 03:34 PM	the artificer, the airships, the lightning rail, the warforged... sure I agree with you, it's not a pure steampunk game like Castle Falkenstein, but there is this steampunk flavour. It's more than that, and it's this cocktail of different elements(races, steampunk, dragonshards, dino, etc.) that makes it unique and exciting... but i think steampunk is still on the bill, much more than the so-called "pulp" or "noir" thing.
FenrysStar 07-04-04, 03:34 AM	the fatalism of Noir plays into Steampunk as well, in some respects. again the devil is in the details so to speak. different dms run things in accordance to their own wishes. I think too many people are looking for a literal transference like Castle Falkenstein but as I eluded to earlier SpellJammer is not a real direct transference of Space Opera either but in some ways the correlations are there. Although if you figure out how to take an airship into outerspace you fundamentally have the beginnings of 3.5 SpellJammer as well as Eberron.