Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DeathRowChris 11-10-04, 07:15 PM	I have a quick question? When a Monk (Human) takes the feat Improved Natural Attack what happens to its unarmed damage, (i was under the assumption that it might be treated as large for its unarmed damage but i am not sure?)? What if a Goliath or Warforged (with a Battle fist on) Monk took the feat? Thnx in advance!
Ithamar 11-10-04, 07:43 PM	As far as I know, the feat Improved Natural Attack would not increase the monk's damage. A monk's unarmed strike is not considered a natural attack. A natural attack is usually a claw, bite or slam attack. Also, isn't a battlefist only for Warforged? I did not think other races (i.e. Goliaths) could actually use them.
Pinky's brain 11-10-04, 07:45 PM	Well it is considered a natural weapon for effects which improve natural weapons, that said this doesnt seem intended for monks.
MaplessManiac620 11-10-04, 09:23 PM	A monk's unarmed strike is not considered a natural attack. Dead wrong. Quoted from the v3.5 SRD, emphasis mine. Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes. Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling. A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. Also, isn't a battlefist only for Warforged? I did not think other races (i.e. Goliaths) could actually use them. Use Magic Device comes in handy here. Again, emphasis mine. USE MAGIC DEVICE (CHA; TRAINED ONLY) Use this skill to activate magic Check: You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment. You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a device such as a wand. If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour. You must consciously choose which requirement to emulate. That is, you must know what you are trying to emulate when you make a Use Magic Device check for that purpose. The DCs for various tasks involving Use Magic Device checks are summarized on the table below. Task Use Magic Device DCActivate blindly 25Decipher a written spell 25 + spell levelUse a scroll 20 + caster levelUse a wand 20Emulate a class feature 20Emulate an ability score See textEmulate a race 25Emulate an alignment 30 Activate Blindly: Some magic items are activated by special words, thoughts, or actions. You can activate such an item as if you were using the activation word, thought, or action, even when you’re not and even if you don’t know it. You do have to perform some equivalent activity in order to make the check. That is, you must speak, wave the item around, or otherwise attempt to get it to activate. You get a special +2 bonus on your Use Magic Device check if you’ve activated the item in question at least once before. If you fail by 9 or less, you can’t activate the device. If you fail by 10 or more, you suffer a mishap. A mishap means that magical energy gets released but it doesn’t do what you wanted it to do. The default mishaps are that the item affects the wrong target or that uncontrolled magical energy is released, dealing 2d6 points of damage to you. This mishap is in addition to the chance for a mishap that you normally run when you cast a spell from a scroll that you could not otherwise cast yourself. Decipher a Written Spell: This usage works just like deciphering a written spell with the Spellcraft skill, except that the DC is 5 points higher. Deciphering a written spell requires 1 minute of concentration. Emulate an Ability Score: To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check. Emulate an Alignment: Some magic items have positive or negative effects based on the user’s alignment. Use Magic Device lets you use these items as if you were of an alignment of your choice. You can emulate only one alignment at a time. Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above). Emulate a Race: Some magic items work only for members of certain races, or work better for members of those races. You can use such an item as if you were a race of your choice. You can emulate only one race at a time. Use a Scroll: If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above). This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items. Use a Wand: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs. Action: None. The Use Magic Device check is made as part of the action (if any) required to activate the magic item. Try Again: Yes, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can’t try to activate that item again for 24 hours. Special: You cannot take 10 with this skill. You can’t aid another on Use Magic Device checks. Only the user of the item may attempt such a check. If you have the Magical Aptitude feat, you get a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks. Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Spellcraft, you get a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks related to scrolls. If you have 5 or more ranks in Decipher Script, you get a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks related to scrolls. If you have 5 or more ranks in Use Magic Device, you get a +2 bonus to Spellcraft checks made to decipher spells on scrolls.
Pinky's brain 11-10-04, 09:36 PM	I think the original poster assumed a goliath already had the unarmed strike damage of a large creature, even without the battlefist.
DeathRowChris 11-10-04, 09:41 PM	Thank you Pinky's Brain, that was my assumption. And yes the monks unarmed strike is both manufactured and natural. Thanks for the backup on that one MaplessManiac620. So can someone asnwer the question?
Edymnion 11-10-04, 09:45 PM	Personally, I wouldn't allow UMD to allow someone to use a WF component. It isn't that the item only works for them, its that it won't physically fit a non-warforged. For example, it would hurt like heck to UMD on a docent, seeing as it has to be placed inside your chest for it to function. Same with the things like armblades. They aren't warforged only because of the magic, they're warforged only because they were made to physically lock onto a warforged. UMD only applies to magic, not any mundane reasons.
MaplessManiac620 11-10-04, 09:46 PM	I'll take a stab at this. The Warforged Monk at level 6 has an unarmed attack of 1d8. Improved Natural Attack (attainable by straight Monk at level 6) improved it by 'one size', which according to the MM, is 2d6. The Battle Fist, IIRC, increases by 'one size', so again going by the MM< this would Increase to 3d6. Seem about right? EDIT: Being 'Large' would increade this another size; 4d6. I need to read better. :D
MaplessManiac620 11-10-04, 09:47 PM	Personally, I wouldn't allow UMD to allow someone to use a WF component. It isn't that the item only works for them, its that it won't physically fit a non-warforged. For example, it would hurt like heck to UMD on a docent, seeing as it has to be placed inside your chest for it to function. Same with the things like armblades. They aren't warforged only because of the magic, they're warforged only because they were made to physically lock onto a warforged. UMD only applies to magic, not any mundane reasons. But by RAW, it works. THere's a thread on this by Catharz (IIRC) on the CharOp Board.
DeathRowChris 11-10-04, 09:52 PM	But as the Monk increases in lvl his damage grows. I wanna know how it affects the damage growth. BTW i only meant a Warforged with a Battlefist. A goliath with a battle fist as a monk (if it could happen) would be considered Huge, and with this feat he would be considered Gargantuan (for damage). Imagine Gargantuan Damage! and @lvl 20!
MaplessManiac620 11-10-04, 09:56 PM	But as the Monk increases in lvl his damage grows. I wanna know how it affects the damage growth. BTW i only meant a Warforged with a Battlefist. A goliath with a battle fist as a monk (if it could happen) would be considered Huge, and with this feat he would be considered Gargantuan (for damage). I would say, apply all modifiers to the base damage. If the Goliath was 20th level, his base damage (being considered large) would be 4d8. The Battlefist would improve this by one 'size'; 6d8 per the MM. Improved Natural Attack improves this by one size again; 8d8 per the MM.
DeathRowChris 11-10-04, 09:59 PM	That needs an edit. I beilieve it would be 12d8???
MaplessManiac620 11-10-04, 10:02 PM	That needs an edit. Why, other than the parenthese error?
DeathRowChris 11-10-04, 10:04 PM	The damage didn't change Huge to Gargantuan would be what kind of damage?
MaplessManiac620 11-10-04, 10:07 PM	The damage didn't change Huge to Gargantuan would be what kind of damage? My fault. Goes from 6d8 to 8d8, per the MM. 12d8 would be the next increase, either from Enlarge Person, Expansion, a Fanged Ring, etc.
Pinky's brain 11-10-04, 10:08 PM	Add 5 levels of wilder and do a double expansion.
DeathRowChris 11-10-04, 10:10 PM	*Drolls for 8d8 of damage* Okay now back to my first question. Lets say i have a lvl 1 Human Monk. At lvl one he takes the feat. Now when he reaches level 4 his damage increase. But since its @ d8 from the feat, what would it cahnge to(i assume it would just go up one more)?
MaplessManiac620 11-10-04, 10:13 PM	Add 5 levels of wilder and do a double expansion. Check Char Op for amazing Unarmed Damage builds.
MaplessManiac620 11-10-04, 10:15 PM	*Drolls for 8d8 of damage* Okay now back to my first question. Lets say i have a lvl 1 Human Monk. At lvl one he takes the feat. Now when he reaches level 4 his damage increase. But since its @ d8 from the feat, what would it cahnge to(i assume it would just go up one more)? He can't take it until level 6; requires BAB +4. Hence why my first example was a level 6 Monk...and why I said level 6 was the first time it was available. EDIT: And I have already stated, 1d8 moves to 2d6, per the Monster Manual.
DeathRowChris 11-10-04, 10:17 PM	O...sorry. My bad but still in the end @ lvl 20 his damage would be 4d8. Right?
MaplessManiac620 11-10-04, 10:19 PM	O...sorry. My bad but still in the end @ lvl 20 his damage would be 4d8. Right? Yes. If you refer to page 41 in the PHB, Table 3-11 you can the the progression of unarmed damage for a large Monk.
Pinky's brain 11-10-04, 10:34 PM	Check Char Op for amazing Unarmed Damage builds. Nice, I always wondered why savage species had such ridiculously large damage progression tables for size increases.
Hellcow 11-10-04, 10:48 PM	A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. "Spells and effects." As I see it the issue here is whether you count a feat as an "effect", which I for one would not. I feel this violates the intent of the feat, which is supposed to be that the creature literally has larger or sharper natural weapons. There's a reason it's in the Monster Manual and not the Player's Handbook: it's not intended for characters belonging to the core races. On the other hand, if you or your DM feels that "effects" should include feats (from my look-through, I could find no official ruling on this), go for it. Emulate a Race: Some magic items work only for members of certain races, or work better for members of those races. You can use such an item as if you were a race of your choice. You can emulate only one race at a time. Actually, as written, warforged components do take this into account. First off, you have the statement "These components only work when bonded to the body of a warforged." It's not simply a question of what race can activate the object: it is clearly stated that the object must be bonded to the body. A human does not have the ability to bond an object to his body. If you were able to bond it, your ability to emulate race would allow you to use it as if you were a warforged. But since you can't bond it in the first place, the ability to emulate race doesn't help. This is specifically clarified in the item descriptions. The armblade, armbow, and battlefist all say "This component only operates when attached and locked in place." The other items say "When embedded in the chest of a warforged..." or "... is embedded in the forearm and hand of a warforged... Once it is in place...." Every component item includes text to this effect, specifically for this purpose. It's not a the magic of the object that is the issue, which is what UMD is about -- it's the inability of an organic character to physically install the item, which is necessary before it can be used.
MaplessManiac620 11-10-04, 11:20 PM	"Spells and effects." As I see it the issue here is whether you count a feat as an "effect", which I for one would not. I feel this violates the intent of the feat, which is supposed to be that the creature literally has larger or sharper natural weapons. There's a reason it's in the Monster Manual and not the Player's Handbook: it's not intended for characters belonging to the core races. On the other hand, if you or your DM feels that "effects" should include feats (from my look-through, I could find no official ruling on this), go for it. Actually, as written, warforged components do take this into account. First off, you have the statement "These components only work when bonded to the body of a warforged." It's not simply a question of what race can activate the object: it is clearly stated that the object must be bonded to the body. A human does not have the ability to bond an object to his body. If you were able to bond it, your ability to emulate race would allow you to use it as if you were a warforged. But since you can't bond it in the first place, the ability to emulate race doesn't help. This is specifically clarified in the item descriptions. The armblade, armbow, and battlefist all say "This component only operates when attached and locked in place." The other items say "When embedded in the chest of a warforged..." or "... is embedded in the forearm and hand of a warforged... Once it is in place...." Every component item includes text to this effect, specifically for this purpose. It's not a the magic of the object that is the issue, which is what UMD is about -- it's the inability of an organic character to physically install the item, which is necessary before it can be used. Thank you for the ruling Mr. Baker; would you mind If I quoted this post if this issue comes up again? I do want to get it right.
Hellcow 11-10-04, 11:20 PM	There's a reason it's in the Monster Manual and not the Player's Handbook: it's not intended for characters belonging to the core races. Having just checked, I'll note that even in the SRD Improved Natural Attack is listed under "Monster Feats" as opposed to "Feats". If WotC had intended it to be available to human monks, they could have added it to the Feats section of the SRD (as they did with, for example, Improved Familiar), even if it wasn't placed in the PHB originally. However, obviously, as DM, you should do whatever the heck you want to do!
Hellcow 11-10-04, 11:23 PM	Thank you for the ruling Mr. Baker; would you mind If I quoted this post if this issue comes up again? I do want to get it right. Please feel free. I'm also going to crosspost it on the Ask Keith Baker thread. It's definitely a good question and something that can use clarification.
MaplessManiac620 11-10-04, 11:25 PM	Having just checked, I'll note that even in the SRD Improved Natural Attack is listed under "Monster Feats" as opposed to "Feats". If WotC had intended it to be available to human monks, they could have added it to the Feats section of the SRD (as they did with, for example, Improved Familiar), even if it wasn't placed in the PHB. However, obviously, as DM, you should do whatever the heck you want to do! Wouldn't it be a problem for Shifters to take it as well then, since their type is Humanoid (Shapechanger)? I am new to analyzing types and sub-types...so I'm not sure if having the 'Shapechanger' subtype makes them a "monster".
Pinky's brain 11-10-04, 11:27 PM	So craft an adapter you wear, and bond the components to that.
MaplessManiac620 11-10-04, 11:29 PM	So craft an adapter you wear, and bond the components to that. If you're going to do that, you might as well just make a different item completely to gain the same effect.
Pinky's brain 11-10-04, 11:32 PM	This is easier to fly past the DM than arbitrary magical items ... "the bonding and the powers are magical effects and thus susceptible to UMD" sounds reasonable to me.
Hellcow 11-10-04, 11:36 PM	If you're going to do that, you might as well just make a different item completely to gain the same effect. I tend to agree. This basically comes down to "If the DM wants to do it, he should do it." But it's not the intention of the objects as they stand.
MaplessManiac620 11-10-04, 11:38 PM	I tend to agree. This basically comes down to "If the DM wants to do it, he should do it." But it's not the intention of the objects as they stand. At least we agree on something tonight... What about my question of the Shifters, Mr. Baker?
Hellcow 11-11-04, 12:29 AM	Wouldn't it be a problem for Shifters to take it as well then, since their type is Humanoid (Shapechanger)? I am new to analyzing types and sub-types...so I'm not sure if having the 'Shapechanger' subtype makes them a "monster". Sorry, I didn't see this before. My take on this would be: Improved Natural Attack was not included in the PHB or the Feats section of the SRD because none of the PC races are supposed to be able to use it. A monk's unarmed strike is "considered to be a natural weapon for purposes of spells and effects", but as a DM I'd still say that the creature does not have a natural attack -- he has an unarmed strike which is similar to a natural weapon. It's splitting hairs, but it's my interpretation of the class ability. On the other hand, both warforged and longtooth/razorclaw shifters do possess clearly defined natural attacks - not just abilities that are "considerd to be natural attacks for purposes of spells and effects." Thus, Improved Natural Attack was added into the Eberron book because these races can use it (Actually, I'd forgotten that it was in the Eberron CSB, while I imagine some other people may not have realized that it had been in the SRD all along). Since the feat was added into the CSB, it's clear that it is intended for use here -- but they waited to add it in until they added player races that possessed natural weapons. Note, however, that while a warforged could take Improved Natural Attack on his slam attack (presumably resulting in the same sort of physical alteration that you see when a warforged juggernaut grows spikes), this does not change the damage a warforged monk inflicts with his unarmed strike. While this may seem odd given the example of the battlefist, it has been stated by the powers that be that monastic training does not incorporate natural weapons, and thus having a natural weapon does not increase your unarmed damage as a monk. Now, if you disagree with my interpretation, please feel free to confirm with the Sage or a more official WotC source. But my take on it is that Improved Natural Attack was added to the player feat list for the warforged slam and shifter claws and teeth, and not for monks.
MaplessManiac620 11-11-04, 12:57 AM	Sorry, I didn't see this before. My take on this would be: Improved Natural Attack was not included in the PHB or the Feats section of the SRD because none of the PC races are supposed to be able to use it. A monk's unarmed strike is "considered to be a natural weapon for purposes of spells and effects", but as a DM I'd still say that the creature does not have a natural attack -- he has an unarmed strike which is similar to a natural weapon. It's splitting hairs, but it's my interpretation of the class ability. On the other hand, both warforged and longtooth/razorclaw shifters do possess clearly defined natural attacks - not just abilities that are "considerd to be natural attacks for purposes of spells and effects." Thus, Improved Natural Attack was added into the Eberron book because these races can use it (Actually, I'd forgotten that it was in the Eberron CSB, while I imagine some other people may not have realized that it had been in the SRD all along). Since the feat was added into the CSB, it's clear that it is intended for use here -- but they waited to add it in until they added player races that possessed natural weapons. Note, however, that while a warforged could take Improved Natural Attack on his slam attack (presumably resulting in the same sort of physical alteration that you see when a warforged juggernaut grows spikes), this does not change the damage a warforged monk inflicts with his unarmed strike. While this may seem odd given the example of the battlefist, it has been stated by the powers that be that monastic training does not incorporate natural weapons, and thus having a natural weapon does not increase your unarmed damage as a monk. Now, if you disagree with my interpretation, please feel free to confirm with the Sage or a more official WotC source. But my take on it is that Improved Natural Attack was added to the player feat list for the warforged slam and shifter claws and teeth, and not for monks. Thank you again Mr. Baker. :D
DeathRowChris 11-11-04, 07:27 AM	Why isn't it natural? Does the definiton clearly define every natural attack. I would have to assume that since the Monk has the special ability(his attack is considered natural) his attack would be natural, After all it is not man made. Emphasis mine Edit: From the MM Slam or Tentacle: suggested damge value for any blunt attack the creature might have( Punches,constriction, slaps, and the like).
DeathRowChris 11-11-04, 07:35 AM	Hell cow you didn't post the full question in that other thread. I also include Goliaths (who i believe have no natural attack and also what would happen with a warforged monk with the battle fist on and taking this feat). Btw I went out on an insane limb when i said the Goliath with a battlefist.
ThanisKartaleon 11-11-04, 07:38 AM	From the PH, p 121. Strike, Unarmed: [snip] An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Light weapons are not natural weapons. Unarmed strike is simply in a category of its own.
ThanisKartaleon 11-11-04, 07:43 AM	what would happen with a warforged monk with the battle fist on and taking this feat The two stack. A warforged's slam attack is a natural weapon, which can be enhanced with both the battlefist and improved natural attack. That said, though, INA still won't affect the example warforged's unarmed strike, even if he is a monk.
DeathRowChris 11-11-04, 11:42 AM	Did you not read the part where it says the monk's unarmed strike counts as a natural and manufactured weapon? If you did then why would you post that?
Hellcow 11-11-04, 01:11 PM	Did you not read the part where it says the monk's unarmed strike counts as a natural and manufactured weapon? If you did then why would you post that? I'm with ThanisKartaleon. It counts as a natural weapon for purposes of spells and effects that affect natural weapons, not for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites. Otherwise, can you explain to me why WotC didn't include Improved Natural Attack in either the PHB or the feats section of the SRD? Monks have always had an unarmed strike that is considered a natural attack "for purposes of spells and effects", but it wasn't until warforged and shifters were added that they moved Improved Natural Attack from Monster Feats to normal feats. Anyhow, I will myself double-check with more official WotC design folks. But while give 100% official answers myself, as one of the designers I can tell you that Improved Natural Attack was placed in the Eberron CSB for shifters, not for humans, monk or not.
Hellcow 11-11-04, 01:15 PM	Hell cow you didn't post the full question in that other thread. I also include Goliaths (who i believe have no natural attack and also what would happen with a warforged monk with the battle fist on and taking this feat). Btw I went out on an insane limb when i said the Goliath with a battlefist. Emphasis mine. Since I don't believe that a monk's unarmed strike counts as a natural weapon for purpose of this feat, it wasn't necessary to specifically address goliaths; there's no difference between a goliath, human, or elf monk in this case. But as I've said before, a) I'll confirm this with someone at WotC, and b) do what you want to do (or at least, what your DM wants to do). It's your game, whatever the rules may say.
Celiwyn 11-11-04, 08:22 PM	From the PH, p 121. Light weapons are not natural weapons. Unarmed strike is simply in a category of its own. I'm with ThanisKartaleon. It counts as a natural weapon for purposes of spells and effects that affect natural weapons, not for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites. I agree with Thanis and Hellcow here on the subject of weither monks hands are natural weapons or not. Monks didn't naturally know from birth how to make their hands cause damage, they were trained.
Egres 11-11-04, 08:34 PM	Take a look here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=315832&page=1&highlight=mean_liar) Have fun! ;)
Hellcow 11-11-04, 08:59 PM	Take a look here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=315832&page=1&highlight=mean_liar) Thanks! Personally, I'm waiting to hear back from someone at WotC. But I feel the 3.5 FAQ makes it pretty clear: When you use the flurry ability, you must attack with either unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons... A natural weapon (any natural weapon) is neither an unarmed strike nor a special monk weapon, so you can't use it along with a flurry... It may seem a tad strange that you cannot use a natural weapon, such as a slam or a claw... You never get extra attacks from a high base attack bonus with natural weaponry, and the monk's flurry ability is another way to get extra attacks from your base attack bonus. It's worth noting here that a vampire monk using its unarmed strike ability is not using its slam attack and cannot drain energy. This seems pretty clear to me. A monk's unarmed strike is considered to be a natural weapon for purposes of effects such as magic fang. However, it is NOT a natural weapon according to the above FAQ excerpt and therefore would not qualify for the feat prerequisite. And as I said, I can attest to the fact that it was put in Eberron for shifters, not humans. But hey, jump in on that other discussion! It still seems to be going strong...
Essex 11-11-04, 10:12 PM	You keep noting that the feat is in the Monster Manual and indicating that this means that it is not meant for standard characters. I note that it is listed as a [General] feat and is thus open to anyone who qualifies for it. Thus the only question is one regarding the Prerequisite of a "Natureal weapon". You also have noted several times that you believe that the feat is indicitive of a larger/more dangerous natural attack (ie. really big claws). This is not supported by the feat's associated text. "The creature's natural attacks are more dangerous than its SIZE and type would otherwise dictate." The natural attack is not necessarily larger than normal, the possesser of the feat merely knows how to use it to best effect. Of course, assuming that the feat does stack with monk abilities, here is a munchkin option for a 20th level Warforged Monk: 20th Level Monk does 2d10 damage. Add the Improved Natural Attack feat. Add the Warforged fist item for +1 effective size category. Use one of the Oriental Adventures fighting styles for +1 effective size category for damage. I'm fairly sure I saw monk variant in Dragon Magazine that grants a +1 to effective size category for damage if you take the right prerequisites by 6th level. Have the party wizard enlarge you for +1 size category. You are now a large creature who is effectively a colossal creature for purposes of your punches (& you get Improved Natural Attack on top of this). How much damage do you wind up doing? I have no idea.
Hellcow 11-11-04, 11:41 PM	You keep noting that the feat is in the Monster Manual and indicating that this means that it is not meant for standard characters. no idea. That's right, I do. This is because of the sentence at the start of the chapter containing the feat, which reads "This chapter provides descriptions... of feats that are typically only used by monsters." Why is Improved Natural Attack listed in this section -- and again, in the SRD, under Monster Feats instead of feats? Because until shifters and warforged were added, no standard PC could use it. Now it is possible to have a character with a natural weapon; previously it was not. I note that it is listed as a [General] feat and is thus open to anyone who qualifies for it. Thus the only question is one regarding the Prerequisite of a "Natureal weapon". I agree with this statement. Once again, this is why the feat was included in the Eberron book -- because it is now possible for a character to qualify for it without using something like Savage Species. Previously, it was not. Despite the common argument that a slam can be a blow with a fist, thus any blow with a fist should be considered a natural weapon, consider the quote from the FAQ in my previous post that specifically stated that a vampire monk does not receive the benefits of his slam when making an unarmed strike -- so there's more to a slam than just a punch. Among other things, there is the intent of the feat itself. As clearly stated in many locations -- include my earlier quote from the FAQ - natural weapons cannot be used to make iterative attacks, regardless of BAB. Improved Natural Attack is supposed to let you do more damage - once (or twice if you have two claw attacks). A monk's unarmed strike lets him make iterated attacks and makes the feat much more powerful. But as noted in the FAQ: "A natural weapon (any natural weapon) is neither an unarmed strike nor a special monk weapon, so you can't use it along with a flurry... You never get extra attacks from a high base attack bonus with natural weaponry." Anyhow, I've said all I have to say (more, really) until I hear back from an official source... I'm going to turn my attention back to Eberron-specific questions until I have something new to add. Again, if you disagree - good for you. Whatever rolls your dice.
AntiSean 11-12-04, 10:13 AM	From the SRD: Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. Since a monk's attacks aren't limited to its hands, claw and slam damage, and thus Improved Natural Attack, should not improve Unarmed Strike damage.
Alexius D'Cannith 11-12-04, 05:44 PM	the reason an unarmed attack is considered natural is so a monk can benefit from the magic fang spells AND THE AMULET OF MIGHTY FISTS, as the idea of a wizard 'enchanting' a monks hand is just plain silly, but its cruel to deny magic attack/damage bonus to monks, and as Hellcow quoted from the FAQ A monks attacks ARE NOT NATURAL ATTACKS see the example of the vampire monk who can slam for damage plus energy drain OR use his monk attacks+damage The Terminology is 'Considered Natural and manufactured for purposes of determining spells and effects' Spells and effects not feats and skills, ergo a feat which is not an effect dosnt count, otherwise im going to get a monk go out there and embed elemental bound khybershards into my human monk's hands because they are considered manufactured flamebound hands ago. There are easier ways to achieve uber death god damage, but whats the point, when it becomes about getting the biggest bonuses and the largest damage dice youve lost something of the essence of the game