Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 03-02-07, 10:28 PM	I may be being somewhat willfully perverse here, but I'm curious to find out what people's favorite, positive things about Forgotten Realms are here on the Eberron boards. I'd create a little list of my favorite things, but, embarassingly, I've never actually played in FR myself except possibly a game that was cancelled by the third session (and even then, I'm not sure if it was FR or a homebrew that used FR deities), and don't own FR materials. Perhaps this makes me a huge hypocrite, or possibly even a gargantuan hypocrite, but I'm nonetheless curious. (Note: If people here have absolutely nothing good to say about Forgotten Realms, anti-Forgotten Realms views in the form of sarcastic praise is acceptable, and could make for a reasonably entertaining thread, but I'd really rather see some actual things people like about it, even if they may think Eberron is twenty times better.)
Splendide 03-02-07, 10:29 PM	Forgotten Realms board.
JulesCARV 03-02-07, 10:40 PM	I'm more curious about knowing what a bunch of Eberron fans like about Forgotten Realms than I am about knowing what a bunch of Forgotten Realms fans like about Forgotten Realms. I realize that some might consider this off topic, or even trolling, but... well, I'm not really interested in asking the FR boards.
Kaizer_Ryu 03-02-07, 10:45 PM	Forgotten Realms board. JulesCARV is asking those of us who frequent the Eberron boards this question, not the tried and true fans of FR, so it's appropriate here. *reads the above post* See? :) As for me, I haven't played it since 2nd ed, before EVERY SINGLE SECOND OF RECORDED HISTORY was mapped out. That's exactly the reason why the Eberron novels have been officially declared non-canon. On a related note, any setting where you have to start off with "Elminster is busy today" and at least 17 other reasons all the other Epic Level NPCs can't take care of it...uh, no thanks.
DoveArrow 03-02-07, 11:42 PM	I actually like Forgotten Realms for exactly the reason that most Eberron fans don't like it. Lots and lots of history. If I want to create an adventure that's based on events that involve anything ancient, whether it be a curse, an artifact, or a prophecy, I can flip through the campaign supplements of Forgotten Realms and come up with an epic adventure that involves historic villains, monstrous creatures, and powerful gods pretty quickly. With Eberron, it's different. It's all about intrigue, and cultures struggling to find a place in the current, political landscape. While I typically find this type of adventure more interesting, occasionally, I'll want to adventure in a realm where the past is grander and more exciting than anything that exists in the world my character is currently living in, and for that, I turn to Forgotten Realms. Note: Keep in mind that these are my opinions, and that I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. The poster wants to know what I like about Forgotten Realms. This is what I like about Forgotten Realms. I don't want someone telling me that I've forgotten about the Dhaakhani Empire, or the cyclopean temples of Xen'Drik, or the crumbling war labyrinths of Sarlona. I haven't forgotten them. I just think that the floating cities of the Netheril Empire, the god kings of the Imaskari, and the temples of the Sarrukh, are far more awe-inspiring than anything the ancient cultures of Eberron have to offer. If you don't agree with me, that's fine, but let me have my opinion, and I'll let you have yours (even though you're wrong. Just kidding. ;)).
Moebius 03-03-07, 12:09 AM	I like how a week in FR is 10 days.
Dragom 03-03-07, 12:26 AM	Well I like that it's not Dragon Lance (Most cruely beaten to death campaign world ever) and I would like the fact you don't have to make up the names of things, and it does have a nice big map. And Beholder liches. Though I do kind of wish someone somewhere could come up with a good motivation for beholders. Forgotton Realms is where all the old New ideas that made D&D so great back in the 80's became tired cliche's. So it is kind of nostalgic.
mahavira 03-03-07, 12:30 AM	It's a more 'normal' D&D game world. Lots of normal D&D stuff just doesn't feel right in Eberron. While I despise the flood of epic level wizards (why anyone bothers villaining in FR eludes me, the Elminster Club could just gather for one week a year and wipe out half the villainous organizations in a shot(maybe more, a week being 10 days)). Depending on your style of play the presence of actual gods can be a plus, and if you have any interest in using the planes, FR allows you to use published materials rather than dumping you with a dozen planes which, while in some respects more interesting than the regular great wheel cosmology, leave you with questions like "Succubi are from Mabar, why can they summon Vrocks from Shavarrath? Why are there both Balors and Pit Fiends on Fernia? Why are the souls in Dolurrh herded by LN Maruts and CE Nalfishnees?".
Lara_Flynn 03-03-07, 08:49 AM	FR is a great setting. Remember D&D 1st edition times? The setting grew with the game and became more and more epic the more the game developed. While this might be a problem nowadays it also made for a gigantic and fascinating rpg setting, a world that is so flahsed out and "real" that it sometimes scared me. It is truly a great setting and has shown a lot of people how "typical" fantasy rpg should work. And without FR probably nobody would've ever thought about things like Eberron. FR is needed as the one true paragon of fantasy rpg, it provides orientation for other settings and is still a wonderful setting itself. There are campaigns one can't do in Eberron but FR. It is a question of style and although I fear that in a few years FR will need some kind of restart or be unplayable due to the incredible high level guys, I believe that the setting itself is far from being "old" or superfluous.
fiendish_platypus 03-03-07, 10:01 AM	I've only ever played in the underdark and I played a gnome blackguard who rode a half-fiend (or fiendish, not sure) dire platypus, and thats one of the only reasons I liked it.
Cifer 03-03-07, 10:26 AM	@mahavira To answer some of your questions: Succubi are from Mabar, why can they summon Vrocks from Shavarrath? It was suggested you change out their summoning possibilities to something on the same plane. Why are there both Balors and Pit Fiends on Fernia? Because they both like fire. Noone said they've got to like each other. Why are the souls in Dolurrh herded by LN Maruts and CE Nalfishnees? Because alignments are not teams in Eberron. For my own, well, I haven't read much of FR, but I haven't found anything that interested me more than its Eberron pendant either.
SSj3goblin 03-03-07, 10:43 AM	I actually like Forgotten Realms for exactly the reason that most Eberron fans don't like it. Lots and lots of history. If I want to create an adventure that's based on events that involve anything ancient, whether it be a curse, an artifact, or a prophecy, I can flip through the campaign supplements of Forgotten Realms and come up with an epic adventure that involves historic villains, monstrous creatures, and powerful gods pretty quickly. Eberron HAS a prophecy, the draconic prophecy, anyone? And if you want epic backstory, the age of demons and the age of giants is just what you're looking for.
(Psi)SeveredHead 03-03-07, 11:06 AM	FR is cool, but I think Eberron is better. Eberron is newer, which by itself doesn't make it better, but it does mean Keith Baker can learn from FR's mistakes and therefore not repeat them. FR is cluttered. It's not really missing good things rather than having bad things stuck into it, and it's a lot of effort to remove these things, such as: Interventionist racial deities - and there's too many of them. Mystra is the worst of them, but she's definitely not the only one. High level (literally epic, plus templated) good aligned heroes who can do all the work that the PCs should be doing. The spellcasters are much worse because they can teleport (and some, like the Chosen of Mystra, are also the fault of #1 listed above). Furthermore, some of them, like Khelben, have information networks so precise they can tell when a single drow is going to infiltrate Waterdeep and then order an apprentice to destroy said ship... which would have worked if said drow didn't treat Lolth like a plaything (see #1 listed above). Elf worship. It happens a little in Eberron too, but not as badly. I so want Xu to get smacked down for her arrogance. Is there such a thing as an elf who isn't arrogant? A world-shattering event every decade or so. The Time of Troubles is the most notorious, but there's also dragon flights, various kingdoms imploding, and what have you. Moving plotline - FR isn't the only setting with this problem. Dark Sun and Dragonlance were both notorious for this problem as well. What is the point of detailing a city when it gets destroyed next year in some novel? Eberron doesn't move the plotline (that's up to the GM) and doesn't make novels canon. The only novel that fans might regard as canon (the Dreaming Dark trilogy, even though it isn't actually canon) is a prequel. Incompetent villains. Sure they're getting better now, but they've got a long history of stupidity. A lot of them also aren't cool to some people - I can't see any reason why the Cult of the Dragon should even exist.
Arcane Guyver 03-03-07, 01:46 PM	Eberron HAS a prophecy, the draconic prophecy, anyone? And if you want epic backstory, the age of demons and the age of giants is just what you're looking for. I thin what DoveArrow was getting at is that there's a lot more information about the past in FR than Eberron. Sure, Eberron has a draconic prophecy, but not one detail about it has been printed (not even inegmatic excerpts, as interpretted by different prophecy watchers). Yes, the Age of Demons and Age of Giants were long and full of eventful things...but again, you have to invent most of the events yourself. Just another case of Eberron shows promise, but needs more fluff to get the creative juices flowing for some folks. A sourcebook for each of the Ages would be pretty cool, actually. As for what I like about FR...well, it has some nice artwork (Todd Lockwood's stuff especially). I actually prefer Greyhawk to it...Mordenkainen is 10x cooler than Elminster. :D
Khybers_Hunger 03-03-07, 01:59 PM	I like how generic it is. No seriously, I mean that in a good way. When you think about it, the only thing that makes it unique is the immense detail everything was done in, and people still love it. You gotta respect that...
Hopeless 03-03-07, 02:53 PM	Waterdeep... My character spent a year of game time going up to an 8th level cleric of helm/1st level sorceror and had to return there twice to get a dose of supernatural aging to be removed the first learning he had to pay 28,000gp to do so, the second time when he had the money to pay for it was told there was noone availble to do so... He finally got assassinated in a church of helm by an assassin working for a guild he fought against during a trip heading north to fight an army of devils released from Dragonspear castle just so the dm could throw in some link to the past... Stopped going when it ceased being fun and became more about who wanted to throw their weight around the most. Liked Faerun, would much rather run Eberron... but thats the Final Fantasy side of me talking!
Kreistor2 03-03-07, 07:33 PM	Never played in it, never seen the material for it, so can not comment in any way.
Edymnion 03-03-07, 07:40 PM	Actually, one of my favorite characters was from Faerun, which I am currently converting over to Eberron. She was a Sorceress from Amn (which hates magic) that was very themed on storms, wind, lightning, thunder, etc. She gets kicked out of her family, ends up joining up with a temple of Selune, and essentially became a priestess. She was a lot of fun, and had the game lasted longer, my goal for her was to ascend to Epic levels, help Selune defeat Shar, and become a minor storm goddess. Faerun is perfect for that. You can meet your god, you can fight beside them, and if you prove yourself worthy, you can join their ranks. A *GREAT* way to retire a character. Can't do that in Eberron. However, she has become a he, and a marked Lyrander. I'm hoping he will be just as much fun as she was.
Hellcow 03-03-07, 07:51 PM	Faerun is perfect for that. You can meet your god, you can fight beside them, and if you prove yourself worthy, you can join their ranks. A *GREAT* way to retire a character. Certainly. I'm a big fan of the "Trojan War" style of play that you can have in Faerun, and it's certainly something Eberron's distant gods work against. However, as a designer, that was essentially my intent. FR offers the chance to interact directly with gods; I wanted to present an alternative, where religion is more a matter of faith than certainty. So the role of the gods is one of the things *I* like about FR... which is, in turn, exactly why Eberron takes a different approach.
Hellcow 03-03-07, 07:57 PM	I so want Xu to get smacked down for her arrogance. Well, I'd argue that Harmattan actually does just that... after all, he left Xu for dead and she would have died if not for Lei. And the rest of the Jalaq are already dead! ;) (Spoilers relating to The Shattered Land/Gates of Night)
Sturm Jaeger 03-03-07, 09:14 PM	Certainly. I'm a big fan of the "Trojan War" style of play that you can have in Faerun, and it's certainly something Eberron's distant gods work against. However, as a designer, that was essentially my intent. FR offers the chance to interact directly with gods; I wanted to present an alternative, where religion is more a matter of faith than certainty. So the role of the gods is one of the things *I* like about FR... which is, in turn, exactly why Eberron takes a different approach. One thing I always loved about Eberron. The faiths require actual FAITH. In FR it's easy to believe in your god when you can personally meet him every other weekend. Eberron's religions are more like the real world. You got to have faith.
Sturm Jaeger 03-03-07, 09:17 PM	Elf worship. It happens a little in Eberron too, but not as badly. I so want Xu to get smacked down for her arrogance. Is there such a thing as an elf who isn't arrogant? It's hard for elves not to feel superior to the shorter-lived races. First off, elves generally (in most campaign worlds, anyway) have cultures and nations that predate anything the humans ever made. "Aren't those humans cute? They're mimicing us." When you live ten times as long as most of the other races, how can you not feel like you're better off. You're going to live ten times longer than a dog, after all.
RadicalTaoist 03-03-07, 10:46 PM	The Chult. Yes, Xen'drik is cool. But Xen'drik doesn't have the Uluu Thalong. It doesn't have gates to the end of the freaking world under active volcanoes. It doesn't have Calimshan, the greediest nation I can think of in all D&D settings anywhere, across the near ocean hungering to tear out its resources. It has some yuan-ti but is not crawling with yuan-ti. Xen'drik is cool, but the Chult is high-density awesome. Other than that, I like Calimshan, Amn, Tethyr, the Lake of Steam, the Vilhon Reach, the Dragon Coast (Westgate yeeeeaaah!), Chessenta, and Unther for locations. Very cool places.
JulesCARV 03-03-07, 11:36 PM	Elves are kinda interesting because they keep things in living memory that are the historical past for some other races. Many Khorvaire elves who are still young grew up in a united Galifar in their earliest days, and probably most elves have spent more time living under a united galifar than in divided wartime Khorvaire or post-Treaty of Thronehold Khorvaire. There are elves who remember when the Mark of Finding was first discovered in the Shadow Marches. They can definitely add some perspective. You could have an anti-Silver Flame shifter encounter an elf warrior who fought in the Purge, and remembers it vividly: "I can tell you, I didn't give a damn about the Silver Flame before then. I was just a boy living in rural Aundair. My dad got gored by a wereboar, and I knew a lot of other people who got killed too. I joined the Silver Flame because I wanted to defend myself. I have no doubt that if it hadn't been for them, I'd have died 160 years ago, eaten by some werewolf or another." Or if you have a hard-core Silver Flamer, he could also say, "I was there. The Silver Flame killed more innocents than the lycanthropes ever did. You didn't have to be a shifter, or anything -- you just had to say 'I don't think this is right,' and you were accused of helping the lycanthropes. Sometimes I think it was more about intimidating ordinary people into not challenging the Flame than about fighting lycanthropy."
ChristopherGroves 03-04-07, 12:30 AM	FR is old. I like it for its history. Unless you're Hellcow, Eberron is still fairly "new". The history is unmapped, unfolding and maleable. The timeline isn't progressingon a daily basis. I like it for the wonders it may hold. :shrug: And I like Greyhawk because it simply *is* Greyhawk.
tallric_kruush 03-04-07, 12:41 AM	1) Similar to what RadicalTaoist said above, I love the huge scope of FR. Any type of region or culture you need for your campaign is likely represented in FR. 2) Also, while I do prefer the faiths of Eberron, it's cool sometimes to get back to the "norm" where gods definitely exist and are the source of divine magic. 3) The novels. I'm sure there are plenty, but I've never read a bad FR novel. Some of the series are simply fantastic. And while I hate that the novels dictate canon, it does give you impetus to finish "The Last Mythal" when you know the restoration of Cormanthyr hangs in the balance. (I use particular example because the novels at times felt more like documetaries to me.:P Yet, the outcome was of epic importance.) 4)DRIZZT DO'URDEN!!! Go ahead and hate. You know he's one of fantasy's greatest characters. I love him and I'm proud of it. I've also never played a drow character in FR, so leave it be.;) You can't become so big, so emulated, and so iconic without being one heck of a character. He's the character that originally inspired me to start reading the DnD novels. I still enjoy his stories to this day. In fact, I think now I may have to start again from the beginning.
Save-vs-DM 03-04-07, 04:32 AM	Actually, I quite liked the faiths and gods of the Forgotten Realms myself. I like them for an entirely different reason than why I like Eberron, but I did like a lot of the faiths. I liked Torm and Tyr especially. Actually, I liked the massive plethora of Gods in the Forgotten Realms, as it made playing a cleric lots of fun when it came to your massive choices. I also liked Lantan of all things - I have a soft spot for slightly steampunk technology in fantasy games, so it was a fun place for me to stick in really wacky things. I also liked the fact that it was incredibly detailed in so many ways. When I was feeling lazy, I only had to look in a book and find the entire history of an area was already mapped out. That made my job as a DM a lot easier most of the time. Actually, I liked the idea of the Weave as well. Just that magic was this great big tapestry and it had a shadow weave as well. That, to me, was very evocative and fit with my idea of how I think magic should work. Granted, I didn't exactly like Mystra actually being the weave itself, but I liked the idea all the same. Finally, I actually liked the idea of Elmister. That there was some old codger of a wizard running around the realms and just documenting everything in a friendly manner made me a smile. Granted, he could have done it while being something like level 15 or so, but still, I liked him for the ideal he represented. Interesting question. Cheers, Save vs DM
Hopeless 03-04-07, 08:27 AM	One thing I always loved about Eberron. The faiths require actual FAITH. In FR it's easy to believe in your god when you can personally meet him every other weekend. Eberron's religions are more like the real world. You got to have faith. Not in the campaigns I played in, another player ran a dwarf deicated to his patron deity and got his weapon blessed by her with me being the only member of the party not paralysed by the event. Got me done that the dm made it look like the faithful got signs that their god was with them and then there's me who adventure after adventure have proved myself a capable guardian and the only signs of favour I got from my god was being denied access to spells without warning and then when he really needed help was effectively turned away from the church and then given a sign of some great evil about to be unleashed so even though stuck at 83 years of age went out to do something about it... then got left insane by a glyph because the dm refused to accept that glyphs have to be seen to work especially on someone located around the corner with his view of it blocked by a pillar and he was concentrating on keeping some undead at by that meant he had his back to the pillar in any case. Made a deal with help the other character who was rendered insane long with him with a devil tht allowed them free into Faerun but made every effort to redeem himself... Sorry still trying to forget about that... Must admit thats probably why I'm so interested in Eberron so much, not only do they seem to allow more leeway with faith but you pretty much left to your own devices and that evens the odds when you're left feeling the dm is more interested in keeping certain players interested even if it alienates others...
Hopeless 03-04-07, 08:31 AM	1) Similar to what RadicalTaoist said above, I love the huge scope of FR. Any type of region or culture you need for your campaign is likely represented in FR. Beholder guard dogs included 2) Also, while I do prefer the faiths of Eberron, it's cool sometimes to get back to the "norm" where gods definitely exist and are the source of divine magic. That depends on your dm for the most part 3) The novels. I'm sure there are plenty, but I've never read a bad FR novel. Some of the series are simply fantastic. And while I hate that the novels dictate canon, it does give you impetus to finish "The Last Mythal" when you know the restoration of Cormanthyr hangs in the balance. (I use particular example because the novels at times felt more like documetaries to me.:P Yet, the outcome was of epic importance.) I have but thats because I suspect Thornhold was trying to illustrate either what makes a bad paladin or allow players to point to it so they can explain off their Lawful Stupid antics as a Paladin... 4)DRIZZT DO'URDEN!!! Go ahead and hate. You know he's one of fantasy's greatest characters. I love him and I'm proud of it. I've also never played a drow character in FR, so leave it be.;) You can't become so big, so emulated, and so iconic without being one heck of a character. He's the character that originally inspired me to start reading the DnD novels. I still enjoy his stories to this day. In fact, I think now I may have to start again from the beginning. Okay I like Drizz't too... especially in the OOTS strip where they bring in the lawyers! The goblin webcomic certainly provides some alternate examples of multiple players with that character in mind...
Kreistor2 03-04-07, 01:58 PM	Can't do that in Eberron. However, she has become a he, and a marked Lyrander. I'm hoping he will be just as much fun as she was. Rhashaak believes differently. the process of becoming a god, to him, is different from that which you describe, but Rhashaak believes that if he is worshipped then he can ascend to become a part of one of the Dark Six. So the theory that a player character could become a god is still present, but the one process we know of that might work (Rhashaak can still be wrong, though his millenia of experience may give him hands on knowledge that it works) is difficult for PC's to achieve, since it involves a cult forming around you. Given the PC's involve themselves in strange corners of the world, it is even possible for a group of PC's that save a little unknown civilization could become worshipped as a pantheon unbeknownst to them, and become deities long after their death.
korcheck 03-04-07, 03:15 PM	every once in awhile you just fell like killing something the good thing about FR was that only meant stepping out you front door and shooting an arrow it was pretty much sure to hit an orc or goblinoid of some kind and you would get in trouble. i love that i can play a goblin in eberron and only have to worry about being spit on (ok its a little worse than that but you get my meaning) but sometimes the ambiguity is a downside to the old fashioned got to kill me a fool in me that i could take out in FR.
RadicalTaoist 03-04-07, 05:48 PM	1) Similar to what RadicalTaoist said above, I love the huge scope of FR. Any type of region or culture you need for your campaign is likely represented in FR. Actually, that's closer to what others said; although I did mention a big list of regions... 4)DRIZZT DO'URDEN!!! Go ahead and hate. You know he's one of fantasy's greatest characters. I love him and I'm proud of it. I've also never played a drow character in FR, so leave it be.;) You can't become so big, so emulated, and so iconic without being one heck of a character. He's the character that originally inspired me to start reading the DnD novels. I still enjoy his stories to this day. In fact, I think now I may have to start again from the beginning. Artemis Entreri and Jarlaxle are cooler. :P
Ringmereth 03-04-07, 07:59 PM	I liked the Baldur's Gate games. They were full of flavor and detail, and the story was one hell of an epic. In the end, it's about a hero (or antihero) pursuing a crazy, over-the-top destiny... but for my money, it's the best implementation of that story pattern ever seen in a video game. In real D&D, FR is an interesting source of inspiration because it's so fleshed out. I wouldn't want to play in it, but it has a lot of detailed bits and pieces to slide into your game.
Roxlimn 03-05-07, 01:40 PM	I liked Martek and the Deserts of Desolation. I liked that you could be over the top cartoony powerful.
Yakman 03-05-07, 02:28 PM	Sorry if I don't join in. The Realms have some good books, but I can't really root for the setting anymore. Way too many munchkins, way too much magic (same with eberron), and far too many 'organizations'.
PoeticJustice 03-05-07, 02:53 PM	I like the majesty, even if it seems like there's nothing new to discover. I also like Shar. She's the coolest!
DoveArrow 03-05-07, 04:26 PM	Eberron HAS a prophecy, the draconic prophecy, anyone? And if you want epic backstory, the age of demons and the age of giants is just what you're looking for. Ah, but it seems you didn't finish reading my thread. Note: Keep in mind that these are my opinions, and that I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. The poster wants to know what I like about Forgotten Realms. This is what I like about Forgotten Realms. I don't want someone telling me that I've forgotten about the Dhaakhani Empire, or the cyclopean temples of Xen'Drik, or the crumbling war labyrinths of Sarlona. I haven't forgotten them. I just think that the floating cities of the Netheril Empire, the god kings of the Imaskari, and the temples of the Sarrukh, are far more awe-inspiring than anything the ancient cultures of Eberron have to offer. If you don't agree with me, that's fine, but let me have my opinion, and I'll let you have yours (even though you're wrong. Just kidding. :P). Remember, only you can prevent me from having to repeat myself.
Moebius 03-05-07, 09:13 PM	Way too many munchkins, way too much magic (same with eberron)so you'd go for a setting like Westros of Game of Thrones? Much less magic there.
goblin_pride 03-05-07, 09:24 PM	so you'd go for a setting like Westros of Game of Thrones? Much less magic there. Actually, yeah, that could be fun. I liked the Realms, but to be completely honest, it's like a hooker 20 years past her prime trying to fix things with plastic surgery and make-up at this point. I think the best thing Wizards could do is retire the current version and rerelease the setting closer to it's original form and let people create their own stories and memories of the place again. And for the record, it was the dwarves of the Forgotten Realms that hooked me. I loved the history, the splendor and the sheer overwhelming feeling of desolation that came from a people that can clearly see their own extiction looming on the horizon. The Pantheon of Dwarven gods showed real imagination, the few remaining dwarven cities had a flavor different from the human and elven cities and the glories of the past had a wide canvas to be painted on.
UnderworldLord 03-06-07, 10:51 AM	You just enjoyed another enemy of the goblinoids dieing out! :) . Just kidding, but personally, I rather enjoyed the books, irregardless of how little I liked the setting itself.
goblin_pride 03-06-07, 11:04 AM	You just enjoyed another enemy of the goblinoids dieing out! :) . Just kidding, but personally, I rather enjoyed the books, irregardless of how little I liked the setting itself. Actually, the first goblin I ever played was in the forgotten realms as well. A little fellow by the larger-than-life name of Trollbreath Mageslayer, Bastard of the bitter well*, Arsonist of arcane towers**. * he earned this title by accidentally poisoning an orc tribe's water supply by leaving one of their sentry's body floatng in the bottom of their well. **this title came from accidentally burning down a wizard's tower before finding out that he was indeed the one behind the curtain pulling all the strings.
Yakman 03-06-07, 11:40 AM	so you'd go for a setting like Westros of Game of Thrones? Much less magic there. eh. Like the books, don't wanna role play it. More like Iron Heroes or Grim Tales.
ArcTan 03-07-07, 11:37 PM	*shrug* As Hellcow said, there's something appealing about FR's ingrained place in the D&D literature if that's what you're looking for. The "Trojan War" feeling -- very old, very powerful NPCs with well-defined personalities and agendas who are constantly beating against each other, and you rapidly ascending to join their ranks by leaps and bounds over time. It's just that I think there's only so much you can do of that before it starts to feel silly. FR demands to be played on an epic scale, and it's hard to keep doing things at an epic scale without things feeling silly. I think the designers themselves planned poorly for the growth of FR and so lots of things don't quite fit in this huge titanic universe that FR has become. Eberron still feels like a place where the small-scale stories fit.
Edymnion 03-08-07, 08:35 AM	I think the best thing Wizards could do is retire the current version and rerelease the setting closer to it's original form and let people create their own stories and memories of the place again.Sort of an Ultimate Faerun, perhaps? Keep the basic idea, totally rewrite the details and events to make them mesh better with current ideals and styles? Just toss out EVERYTHING and start from scratch. I could go for that.I think the designers themselves planned poorly for the growth of FR and so lots of things don't quite fit in this huge titanic universe that FR has become.Thats the problem, the designers *DIDN'T* plan for FR's growth, at all, until it was too late. Faerun is one of the original Gygaxian settings (don't think it was Gygax himself that originally made it, but it was one of the original group). It downright stole from every genre, just like the early game did, and then as people started writing books for it, they just sort of said "Okay, anything that happens in the novels happens in the setting too!", which quickly means everything spiraled out of control.
Kid SixXx 03-08-07, 10:23 AM	I'm defending the FR this morning? I must have landed on Bizarro World overnight. Faerun is one of the original Gygaxian settings (don't think it was Gygax himself that originally made it, but it was one of the original group). Wait, what? FR pretty much evolved from articles Ed Greenwood wrote for Dragon Magazine and short stories that Ed has been writing since grade school. The FR "setting" is pretty much his ideas stitched to D&D rules as best as designers could manage. If you visit Gygax's message boards, you'd noted that he hates the FR setting because he believes it "coddles" PC's or whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. EGG's probably still sore that the FR setting has fleshed out his most notable creation (ie. The Drow) better than he was able to when he was still tinkering with Greyhawk / Oerth. Ed also doesn't seem to care for 3.5 rules: he still occasionally games with his original playtesters (ie. you'd know them as the Knights of Myth Drannor) and they still play with 2ed rules. Ed hasn't chimed in all that much on the current incarnation of the FR because he's busy with his new setting, Castlemourn. Castlemourn you could argue is a bit sketchy since it takes place after a massive magical war. I wonder what other noteworthy fantasy setting takes place shortly after a devastating war where magic was heavily featured? Hmm. :thinks: The inside joke between myself most DM's I regularly talk to is that Castlemourn is a secret plot between Keith and Ed to see if FR folks will accept an Eberron concept aka. The Last War if Ed's name is on the cover of the splatbook instead of Keith's. It downright stole from every genre, just like the early game did, and then as people started writing books for it, they just sort of said "Okay, anything that happens in the novels happens in the setting too!", which quickly means everything spiraled out of control. Again, wait what? 1) There aren't too many modern genre that don't borrow heavily from previous ones. If you want to get technical, all fantasy steals from classic mythology and folklore, so I don't see why the FR should be more villified than say.. Tolkien or Michael Moorecock. 2) Most of the "real world" content (Kara-Tur, Maztica, Zakhara) got shoehorned into the setting through no fault of its own because the FR was the most popular setting at the time of the other content's development. Back then, the setting was so popular that you couldve sold ice to the Inuit if the bags containing the ice had the FR logo on them. Tacking the other settings (novel or otherwise) to the FR was marketing. Ed's FR pretty much centered on the Heartlands, the Silver Marches, and occasionally the Unapproachable East. The other stuff got stapled on so it'd have a shot at longevity: it rode on the coattails of the FR. 3) I'll agree that the novels = canon issues caused more problems than they solved, because I don't know who thought it was a bright idea to try to "codify" poetic license. FR Novels have always been a problem for the setting and for these boards. I was around for the flame wars on the FR Novels board that ended up making any novel discussion on the Wizards boards verbotten. They make the current canon brawls on the FR boards seem like epitomes of peace, love and understanding.
Elemental_Elf 03-09-07, 01:16 AM	Back when I started D&D, oh about a year and a half ago, FR looked amazing. A fully fleshed out world where there are literally hundreds of books written into it. A world where Humans and Elves battle against the hordes of the Underdark. A world where DRIZZT lives (Sue me, I had never heard of him before and, let's face it, a Drow with a Panther and 2 Swords battling legions of Orcs is simply COOL). A world where Humans a decedents of Ancient Egyptians (I love Stargate, so this particular plot device pulled me in). Forgotten Realms was a World that simply seems cool. But then, the attraction wore off. There were too many High Level NPCs. Too many books that were considered Cannon. Too many NPCs I had never heard of. Too many... Well in essence Forgotten Realms was just too much. The things I liked in the beginning, like the HUGE Pantheon, became a hindrance as you had to choose a god. There was no room for interpretations, you either followed your God or no Spells for you.... Wow I'm bashing FR, my bad. Things I like... I like the Dales. I think they are a wonderful area with great background and unique flavor. I like the idea of the Dale Compact and how it has reverberated through history. But beyond that and the Gnomes there isn't much to hold me. Especially when compared to Eberron :D :dancin:
miscellany 03-09-07, 03:07 AM	I'd have chimed in, but SixXx already set the record straight. ::::::::::::::::::::::: We like the Realms because, well, we grew up playing in it. We know so much about it that we can run/play any style game in it and probably already have (including games with what are now considered "Eberron" themes). We can warp, add, subtract and alter its features to suit our needs and never really felt tied down to all that's been written about it because we learned over twenty years ago that the spirit of the Realms isn't about adhering to what's in print, it's about telling wonderful, meorable and fun stories.* :) *Thanks to Ed Greenwood for teaching us that so long ago.
Seghan 03-09-07, 07:13 AM	I like the Realms map, the geography. In some ways I like Faerun better than Khorvaire just for raw variety, and something about the way it is layed out just strikes a chord with me. Not saying the layout is "good" or "better" than Eb, it just suits my taste. Although it does seem to be lacking most of Eberron's cartographic wierdness (scale and whatnot), and that's a good thing. That being said, I really don't like most of the setting, and when I used it in the past my group usually pasted a massively modified setting on that cool map. One that actually resembled Eb in a lot of ways.
Yakman 03-09-07, 02:56 PM	Ed also doesn't seem to care for 3.5 rules: he still occasionally games with his original playtesters (ie. you'd know them as the Knights of Myth Drannor) and they still play with 2ed rules. I agree with everything except this. Ed's group is called the "party of crazed venturers" (or something like that) They are actually mentioned in some of the source materials and in the FRCS.
goblin_pride 03-09-07, 04:53 PM	Ed's group is called the "party of crazed venturers" (or something like that) They are actually mentioned in some of the source materials and in the FRCS. Company of Crazed Venturers.
Kid SixXx 03-09-07, 04:56 PM	Ed's group is called the "party of crazed venturers" (or something like that) They are actually mentioned in some of the source materials and in the FRCS. Yep, I may have confused the Knights with the Company, but the Knights were also playtesters. IIRC, The real names of the Knights & which characters they played are in an older boxed set & the biographies in Hall of Heroes (FR7 maybe) were written by John Nephew from the actual player character record sheets.
Shady314 03-09-07, 05:28 PM	I love FR because I can make disparaging remarks to people by saying "Go play FR." And now to be serious any fondness I have for FR is because it's the setting used in BG and BG2. Which were both fantastic games.
Riodrian 03-10-07, 03:07 AM	I like the Forgotten Realms because I picked up the initial releases. I had read the Dragon articles and "grew" with the setting. Much like newer players get to "grow" with Eberron. FR had it's problems, but overall it was a wonderous tapestry of a setting, where anything was possible. As far as it's downfall? Decades can do that. Personally, I blame the marketing side of the gaming industry for it rather than the designers. They pushed for quantity over quality. Comparing FR and Eberron is like trying to compare a 70's Show with a Modern one. The old one will always end up seeming cheesy because of how times have changed. I love the Realms for all they have given me and the memories of play there I cherish. I love Eberron for all it *will* give me and the memories of play there I *will* cherish. And my respects to all the forgotten settings that kept this hobby alive through the years, even if no one respects how innovative they were at the time.
spyone 03-10-07, 02:43 PM	Faerun is one of the original Gygaxian settings (don't think it was Gygax himself that originally made it, but it was one of the original group). I might be wrong about this (and please, someone check my dates and such), but I believe the creation of FR was a direct response to Gygax leaving the company. And the sudden revelation that he and not TSR owned the World of Greyhawk.
Dragom 03-10-07, 08:58 PM	Isn't Grey Hawk the core upon wich the forgotten realms have been built?
miscellany 03-10-07, 09:16 PM	I might be wrong about this (and please, someone check my dates and such), but I believe the creation of FR was a direct response to Gygax leaving the company. And the sudden revelation that he and not TSR owned the World of Greyhawk. That would only be incorrect inasmuch as as the Realms were first created as a fictional backdrop for Greenwood's own fiction writing (which predated the creation of D&D), then were adopted to D&D when Greenwood and friends discovered teh game. Greenwood's setting was later purchased by TSR, but I do not know the exact circumstances surrounding that decision vis-ą-vis Gygax' and his issues with TSR at the time. Isn't Grey Hawk the core upon wich the forgotten realms have been built? It is not. We can see much of how the Realms were adapted by Greenwood over time in old back issues of The Dragon (before it was just Dragon Magazine) to suit the D&D rules, but not to reflect or mimic Greyhawk. The Realms is its own animal, separate from Greyhawk but linked to it only in that they are D&D settings, have cross-pollination of spells (Bigby, Tenser, etc...though likely Faerūnian mages could have come up with such spells, we just use those names because we (read: Gamers) recognize them) and are tenuously linked via the outer planes. Have a nice day everyone Mr. Miscellany and I are going to go host a housewarming party!!!! :D :D :D
johnkretzer 03-11-07, 09:04 PM	I love the FRs. Everything about it. I feel the same way about Eberron. The only thing I dislike about the Reams are the novels...I dislike the fact that they have become cannon. Sure I wouldn't mind little things like the dwarves coming back to Mirthel Hall or etc. That is fine... but the Shadow Weave? The elves taking back Myth Drannor? The City of Shade? The problem is these things were just slapped in with very little thought. Also the cannon elitest who take the book as gossip grates on the nerves just a little. Sorry I didn't mean to go in bashing the Realms but that is the only thing I dislike of the Reams
Euangelion 03-11-07, 11:07 PM	For me the best thing about FR was the Baldurs Gate game. It brought me back to D&D after a 10-year absence. But my heart belonged originally to the boxed Greyhawk setting with the big wall map with rivers that ran uphill. Despite Baldurs Gate, FR didn't steal my heart, but Eberron (obviously) has.
spyone 03-12-07, 12:50 AM	Isn't Grey Hawk the core upon wich the forgotten realms have been built? It is not. We can see much of how the Realms were adapted by Greenwood over time in old back issues of The Dragon (before it was just Dragon Magazine) to suit the D&D rules, but not to reflect or mimic Greyhawk. That wasn't me that said that, it was Dragom.Isn't Grey Hawk the core upon wich the forgotten realms have been built?
Yakman 03-12-07, 11:55 AM	I actually like the ongoing timeline in FR. It makes for a refreshing of the setting if you will, providing new villains and new challenges for a party. Ebberon's timeline stagnancy is nice too, but they both have their advantages.
Kensan_Oni 03-12-07, 12:21 PM	For the most part, I've always hated the realms. It was big, it had little purpose, it had more history then future, and it rarely ever seemed exciting. That said, there are a few things that I did like about it when no one was looking. Phlan. I liked the first Pool of Radiance game. I liked the concept of citied divieded into wards to adventure in and clear out. That concept worked, and someday, I would like to revisit the concept for an adventuring campaign. Lurue. I have an adventuring unicorn goddess! The fact that no one respects her is irrelevant to me. I like her! I kinda like that the forgotten realms included a egyptian/mespotamia area for people to adventure in, but to many people just don't like going there. Kara-Tur was neat, in it's own way... but it was also too much history, not enough future. ... And I think that is what you can say about Ebberon that you can't say about the Realms. The realms is all about it's past. It has no bright and shining future, because it IS the bright and shining future. There is no real war, there is no border conflicts. It's islands of civilization with lots of room to expand, and only a few greedy groups preventing things from being happy. Oh... and the gods meddle with everything, which just isn't cool. Ebberon, it's almost the opposite. You have well defined nations that are in conflict with each other, and very little wilderness. You have the worse just behind you, and everyone is looking around going what now? There is a WHOLE lot of bad evil orginizations and monsters, and the world is rebuilding itself to become a better place despite all the problems which it still has. You make a difference because anyone can make a difference. ... and the gods rarely take a direct involvement in things, which is also nice.
Raziel_Brokodar 03-12-07, 07:51 PM	FR novels got me into fantasy to begin with. That damn drow. :rolleyes: hmmm as for what I liked about it? Now that I look back, I surely don't miss it (and I'd never go back to it) er... I liked how if the party didn't have a healer being the cleric wasn't a chore, it was fun to explore a different deity each time. (then again that was the problem in the end, way too many gods, way too much influence/interaction) And for the record, it was the dwarves of the Forgotten Realms that hooked me. I loved the history, the splendor and the sheer overwhelming feeling of desolation that came from a people that can clearly see their own extiction looming on the horizon. The Pantheon of Dwarven gods showed real imagination, the few remaining dwarven cities had a flavor different from the human and elven cities and the glories of the past had a wide canvas to be painted on. I liked the dwarves too, I always tried to get a campaign going with a party consisting solely of dwarves from the same clan... but everyone always wanted to base stuff out of Icewind Dale or Baldur's Gate, or to be a drow :mad:
goblin_pride 03-12-07, 08:00 PM	I liked the dwarves too, I always tried to get a campaign going with a party consisting solely of dwarves from the same clan... but everyone always wanted to base stuff out of Icewind Dale or Baldur's Gate, or to be a drow :mad: One of my favorite characters to play was the oldest of a group a dwarves out of Citadel Adbar. Fighter/priest of Clangeddin and he spoiled me for ever playing dwarves again. I got lucky, the whole party was dwarves and the DM took my backstory and created a civil war in the clan because the rightful heir to leadership was passed over. My character would've been the heir but he refused and his nephew (another PC) that he backed was passed over. Nothing like a civil war between two factions of a dwarf clan that are both lawful good in alignment.
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 03-12-07, 11:33 PM	Ebberon can feel a bit neat sometimes, every niche is filled wich for charicters with big dreams can be a problem as you'll be treading on someone else. Forgoten realms has more frontears too, if I want to carve out a kingdom there are places I can do it, Eberron realy has only Xen'dirk and posbly frost fell, every other bit of land is owned.
Kensan_Oni 03-12-07, 11:36 PM	Well, I wouldn't completely agree with that. There is the monster nations, which one could carve into. There is a large portion of the Eldereen Reaches that has nothing in it, really. There is also the no-mans land in every mountain range that isn't owned definitively by anyone. Sure, one isn't going to forge their own nation, but if you want to claim a little peice of it for your own, it certantly is possible. However, yes. It is much easier to do in the Realms then in Ebberon.
RogueElement 03-13-07, 12:22 AM	Isn't that what Xendrik is for? You want to start your own kingdom, there's a whole continent there for ya.
cancerousmango 03-13-07, 12:31 AM	I have most of the FR books, and know quite a lot about the setting. I think I just got tired of it when I read an article about different inks of the realm or some such nonsense. I was like, this setting has been vivisected and detailed to death. I begin an epic quest to find a cool new setting, Dawnforge, Iron Kingdoms, Scarred Lands, Midnight, with Eberron over my shoulder going "try me, I'm cool!" and I would just say, "screw off Eberron, you have dinosaurs, making you lame." It was really changelings and daelkyr that got me into the setting. I thought, "that's really cool, I can constantly mess with my players with changelings, and have them be terrified at the mention of a daelkyr because there are no good guys high-enough level to save them."
Daydreamer 03-13-07, 01:31 AM	The biggest difference is an issue of flavor but here goes. 1. Metaphysical discontinuity, it is possible to get to high levels by merely adventuring without necessarily becoming embroidled in the overarching story of the world. 2. Instant consistency with the realm books-source material(especially third party) is much easier to integrate. 3. The classic fantasy feel, Fr has nostalgia value. 4. Cool npcs- ie elminster. 5. Supports epic play easier (this is a flavor issue, but if you like epic Fr is a good place). the rest of the things come down to major personal choice, but FR is a good realm imo. But so is eberron.
Kid SixXx 03-13-07, 07:32 AM	I actually like the ongoing timeline in FR. It makes for a refreshing of the setting if you will, providing new villains and new challenges for a party. Ebberon's timeline stagnancy is nice too, but they both have their advantages. Well, there is no timeline stagnancy. You're splitting hairs between having devs & authors advance the timeline for you (FR) and you doing it yourself (Eberron). Quite a few of the Dungeon modules produce new additions to the PC's rogue's gallery of villainy, provided that the PC's don't kill them immediately.
Yakman 03-13-07, 11:22 AM	Well, there is no timeline stagnancy. You're splitting hairs between having devs & authors advance the timeline for you (FR) and you doing it yourself (Eberron). Quite a few of the Dungeon modules produce new additions to the PC's rogue's gallery of villainy, provided that the PC's don't kill them immediately. I see your point, but what if you don't have the time or inclination to work out the details of timeline advancement? In FR, you can let WotC do it for you, and your characters can go along for the ride.
Yakman 03-13-07, 11:26 AM	Ebberon, it's almost the opposite. You have well defined nations that are in conflict with each other, and very little wilderness. If you look at the population densities in Ebberon, it's almost all wilderness--civilization is rather tenuous--there's 12 million people in the five nations, which have an area about the size of europe.
Kensan_Oni 03-13-07, 12:06 PM	Yes, but that's post war, after a hundred years, after you remove a large nation, and everyone fighting in it. Give it a generation, and you're going to have the baby boom. I say that it's population should triple in about 20 years. I also think your caculation might be off consider that there is always more village and towns just never marked on the map for DM's to expand to. Or maybe I just diviate. I still think 800+ years of empire building would eliminate a lot of wilderness...
Kid SixXx 03-13-07, 12:09 PM	I see your point, but what if you don't have the time or inclination to work out the details of timeline advancement? Wha? Time advances everytime you have a game session. If you want to micromange events that is fine, but you don't necessarily have to keep track of the lives of every sentient being on the planet. Eberron is episodic, so only the events that immediately affect the PC's really matters. You can bring the other stuff in the shadows up to snuff when the time comes to deal with it & work on it at your leisure. As for my personal praise of the FR, I absolutely love Ed's articles that attempt to make the FR feel a bit like home. Most of the usual griping about the setting tends to hover around the alleged bajillion mega-powered munchkins that supposedly inhabit the Realms, but Ed always did his best to give the impression that the Realms was always about normal folks doing thing in normal ways with the occasional intrusion of high fantasy elements and unprovoked mayhem. Best example of this would be the articles on the WoTC website about the better known inns to be found in the setting. Ed describes these places so lovingly that makes it seem like there is one of these places just down the road from me in real life where I can go, hang out, and grap a pint of somethingorother ale. And Elminster always sneeks a discussion about food in every article that never fails to make me hungry as I'm reading it.
Yakman 03-14-07, 11:33 AM	Yes, but that's post war, after a hundred years, after you remove a large nation, and everyone fighting in it. Give it a generation, and you're going to have the baby boom. I say that it's population should triple in about 20 years. I also think your caculation might be off consider that there is always more village and towns just never marked on the map for DM's to expand to. Doesn't jive with the fluff though. I'm only referencing the population figures from the ECS. Aundair and Breland were spared much of the ravages of the war. How do we explain their low populations? Fact is, as Hellcow has stated, the scale of the maps were published wrong. Or maybe I just diviate. I still think 800+ years of empire building would eliminate a lot of wilderness... I jack up the population by 10x. Eberron should be densely populated, lots of people, and even then, there's tons of room for abandoned nothing.
goblin_pride 03-14-07, 11:44 AM	I jack up the population by 10x. Eberron should be densely populated, lots of people, and even then, there's tons of room for abandoned nothing. I use x10 standard on everything but Darguun. Darguun hasn't been idle in the 29 years or so since it was founded and by the old second edition ecologies, goblinoids are adults by the age of 5 or so. So good ol' Darguun gets a x20 boost to it's population to reflect the speed at which the little buggers breed.
Ehtiar 03-14-07, 12:25 PM	When all is said and done.. FR has many, many incredibly cool ideas and concepts. The trouble being, it got saturated with them, and has a certain sense of hodge-splodge randomness of being just thrown in. With Eberron, even when something is thrown in, it _feels_ like its connected and woven into the tapestry (although that might just be because its so new and shiny :D ).
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-14-07, 12:49 PM	The Realms' hodgepodge nature is a big problem, indeed. That's where Eberron shines (or most other modern settings, for that matter). What might detract from the fun a little is the Whatever-D&D-offers-Eberron-has-it approach. (That was most probably a marketing decision, anyway - the Wizards want to sell their splatbooks after all -, but not necessarily a good one for the setting.) That's why I love Midnight, for example. "You want drow, gold dragons, half-elves, planar travel, teleportation, good-aligned clerics, flying ships? Tough, you don't get it." There's only there what needs to be there, so I guess Eberron could do with a little streamlining in that regard. DB
Yakman 03-14-07, 02:05 PM	I use x10 standard on everything but Darguun. Darguun hasn't been idle in the 29 years or so since it was founded and by the old second edition ecologies, goblinoids are adults by the age of 5 or so. So good ol' Darguun gets a x20 boost to it's population to reflect the speed at which the little buggers breed. How could I have guessed that you would have done something like that....;)
goblin_pride 03-14-07, 02:20 PM	How could I have guessed that you would have done something like that....;) If it's any consolation, I did the same thing for the Kobolds, lizardfolk and anything else with a maturity rate under 10 years. Needless to say, there's a couple countries that have already recovered from the last war and have the population to be able to reopen hostilities.
Yakman 03-14-07, 03:51 PM	If it's any consolation, I did the same thing for the Kobolds, lizardfolk and anything else with a maturity rate under 10 years. Needless to say, there's a couple countries that have already recovered from the last war and have the population to be able to reopen hostilities. I used to think that way about the goblinoid races--how exactly are they not in charge if they reproduce so quickly... then I thought... hey! these guys are goblins! they don't like working the fields, so there's not a lot of food to eat, everyone is on the edge of starvation, there's plenty of infanticide, lots of disease (they live in squalor), cannibalism, harem slavery--most guys aren't reproducing, just the big chief, random murder, death by drinking, drugs, civil war, monsters rampages, etc.. The population is kept down by the characteristics of the race. Dunno how well that transfers to Eberron, but I suppose if you gamed it so the 'civilized' Dhakaani were largely wiped out and only the real gutter scum survived, then it would come over intact.
goblin_pride 03-14-07, 06:36 PM	I used to think that way about the goblinoid races--how exactly are they not in charge if they reproduce so quickly... then I thought... hey! these guys are goblins! they don't like working the fields, so there's not a lot of food to eat, everyone is on the edge of starvation, there's plenty of infanticide, lots of disease (they live in squalor), cannibalism, harem slavery--most guys aren't reproducing, just the big chief, random murder, death by drinking, drugs, civil war, monsters rampages, etc.. That works until you take into account the number of Cyran refugees that crossed into Darguun and suddenly found themselves crossing the block in the markets in Darguun. It's been a country for close to thirty years at the start date for most campaigns and a good number of them are being paid well enough by house Deneith that alot more of them can afford to buy slaves and/or food.
DarthMidget 03-14-07, 07:12 PM	The population is kept down by the characteristics of the race. Dunno how well that transfers to Eberron, but I suppose if you gamed it so the 'civilized' Dhakaani were largely wiped out and only the real gutter scum survived, then it would come over intact. Well in Eberron you can explain it through magic. The goblnoids, though numerous, have nowhere near the sophisticated universities and magical academies that Old Galifar possessed. Thus during any struggle the goblinoids would not be packin' the firepower that the Galifaran armies would. As such rebel goblinoid armies could be decimated rapidly by military forces outfitted with magic. This actually, in my mind, ties in well with the goblinoid emphasis on raiding and banditry. The goblinoids learned, after a few horrifying defeats, that they could not contest Galifar in the field. So the goblinoids turned to small-scale raids, and skirmishing. Sure everynow and then a well-armed Galifaran strikeforce (i.e. adventurers) would come through an massacre a village or two, but a massive reprisal was avoided. That, and the fact that the inability to march to war turned goblinoid society inward as evidenced by the feuding between the various tribes and clans. As another point for population discepancy the Galifaran states would, as previously noted, have access to a great deal more magic than the goblinoids. Thanks to the Dragonmarked houses this is even more amplified. Thus century after century the birthrates and life expectancy of the civilized races skyrocketed while the goblinoid infant mortality rate and life expectancy stagnated, and, in some cases, might have dropped. So, enter into this equation Darguun. Darguun does not frighten the other nations of Khorvaire because of the threat it presents now, but because of the threat it might present in the future. If the goblinoid races can create a stable society with widespread agriculture, some form of decent education system, and access to the resources of the Dragonmarked houses Darguun could become a major power in less than a century. As a side note I too multiply my population numbers by 10. Good note on putting Darguun at x20. I think I'll adapt that to my campaign! :)
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-14-07, 08:07 PM	Attention, attention! This thread is officially derailed. Paramedics are on their way as we speak, rescue helicopters will arrive shortly thereafter. Thank you for your attention. DB
Dragom 03-14-07, 08:08 PM	This actually, in my mind, ties in well with the goblinoid emphasis on raiding and banditry. The goblinoids learned, after a few horrifying defeats, that they could not contest Galifar in the field. So the goblinoids turned to small-scale raids, and skirmishing. Sure everynow and then a well-armed Galifaran strikeforce (i.e. adventurers) would come through an massacre a village or two, but a massive reprisal was avoided. That, and the fact that the inability to march to war turned goblinoid society inward as evidenced by the feuding between the various tribes and clans. Wait! Galifar never waged war on the Goblins. There was a series of pre-Galifar Human vs Goblin wars that probably ranged from one sided (as in US vs native american one sided) to bloody wars proper as most likely occured in the distant past of Sharn. But there wouldn't have been a major Arcane advantage. There could have been the advantage of a shortage of civil war among the humans. There could have been a kind of unified belief in the goblins that the world was comming to an end. Between the formation of Darguun and Denieth's continued use of Hobgoblin Mercenaries, it kind of points to Hobgoblins being among the cream of the crop as far as battalions of rank and file soldiers go. But yes, I will agree that the mere one connection to a dragonmarked house, the absence of universities and colleges, the rarity of hospitals and high end workshops keeps much of Darguun a lot less prosperous then anywhere else in Khorvaire.
Dragom 03-14-07, 08:14 PM	And as I said before, Beholder liches. Though I have no idea how they can amuse there massively high intelligences waiting for adventurers to come looking for a treasure... And why the Beholder doesn't just take the swag and buy a castle filled with servants and pretty tapestries...
goblin_pride 03-14-07, 09:14 PM	Attention, attention! This thread is officially derailed. Happens all the time, it'll right itself again shortly. Or not, 50/50 odds either way.
Yakman 03-15-07, 10:30 AM	And as I said before, Beholder liches. Though I have no idea how they can amuse there massively high intelligences waiting for adventurers to come looking for a treasure... And why the Beholder doesn't just take the swag and buy a castle filled with servants and pretty tapestries... Because it's a Beholder! it doesn't make any sense to begin with, its behavior isn't going to make sense either!
Logos7 03-15-07, 10:54 AM	spawn of the daelkyr and all that
Kid SixXx 03-16-07, 09:02 AM	In further praise of the FR, I have always loved the concept of mythals (magic that encompases an entire city = rawk!) and Elven High Magic. I haven't loaned High Magic to the Aerenal because I'm not sure if they are such students of the game that they picked up anything that colossal in scope from their time spent as the slaves of the Giants. I have, however, put mythals over the current cities of Aerenal (the most powerful Aerenal mythal naturally covers the City of the Dead) & turned mythal building into an elaborate (and ancient) magical ritual involving a large number of high-level mages & clerics. The Aereni are still somewhat capable of creating mythals but IMC mythal building is becoming a lost art due to the small number of high level Aereni mages & clerics in present day Eberron.
goblin_pride 03-16-07, 10:00 AM	See, Dex, I told you it would right itself again.
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-16-07, 10:19 AM	See, Dex, I told you it would right itself again. Could have gone either way ;) DB
hiryuu 04-01-07, 11:25 PM	Lantan. Sword Coast. The Hordelands. These are places I enjoy adventuring.
CaptainDakar 04-01-07, 11:54 PM	I particularly enjoy the fact that the Player's Guide to Faerun has 29 prestige classes in it. Imagine, 29. I don't know why I like them, I suppose they give me more options and ideas to build upon, for I do enjoy to create characters. That's probably my only real funk with Eberron, the lack of prestige classes. If my DMs won't let me use my own, where else am I supposed to get them?!
Faraer 04-02-07, 10:55 AM	Hi. I'm no expert on Eberron, but I know about the Realms, so:(why anyone bothers villaining in FR eludes me, the Elminster Club could just gather for one week a year and wipe out half the villainous organizations in a shot(maybe more, a week being 10 days)Not remotely: see this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=817656) (which neglects certain factors, such as the major role of local and personal magical protections, which tend to make direct strikes on magically powerful enemies rare; the binding of characters' actions by pacts made towards other aims, as seen clearly in the short story "So High a Price"; etc.).. . . and far too many 'organizations'.How so? There are, in fact, far more than the few hundred or so that have been published, among tens of millions of people!If you visit Gygax's message boards, you'd noted that he hates the FR setting because he believes it "coddles" PC's or whatever the hell that is supposed to mean.This isn't so; Gary consistently says that he has no particular opinion on the Realms as he doesn't know much about it. Though at least once he praised one of Ed's Dragon articles.Ed hasn't chimed in all that much on the current incarnation of the FR because he's busy with his new setting, Castlemourn. Castlemourn you could argue is a bit sketchy since it takes place after a massive magical war.He completed his design work on Castlemourn (for now) years ago and is working mainly on the Realms and non-RPG-related fiction.Ed's group is called the "party of crazed venturers" (or something like that) They are actually mentioned in some of the source materials and in the FRCS.The Company of Crazed Venturers are his original long-term PC group, circa late 1970s; the Knights of Myth Drannor (with many of the same players) began in the early 80s.I might be wrong about this (and please, someone check my dates and such), but I believe the creation of FR was a direct response to Gygax leaving the company. And the sudden revelation that he and not TSR owned the World of Greyhawk.After TSR forced Gary out, they retained legal ownership of the World of Greyhawk (except proper names based on his own name). Wanting to get away from Gary's legacy with a 'new' (twenty-year-old) setting may well have been a motivation for acquiring the Realms, but we don't know for sure.Oh... and the gods meddle with everything, which just isn't cool.They don't; they very rarely actively intervene in Faerūn.. . . Ed always did his best to give the impression that the Realms was always about normal folks doing thing in normal ways with the occasional intrusion of high fantasy elements and unprovoked mayhem.Very much so. This is the Realms: hard-working merchants and farmers, gossip in the local inn, camaraderie around the camp fire and braving the unknown, beautiful countryside, scheming and villainous cultists, knights' armour gleaming in the sun, the here and now mattering and DMed to the hilt as if real.
Kid SixXx 04-02-07, 11:01 AM	This isn't so; Gary consistently says that he has no particular opinion on the Realms as he doesn't know much about it. Though at least once he praised one of Ed's Dragon articles. Some of the older threads at his board would suggest differently, but I'd concede that most of Gary's venom in most of those old school threads are directed towards specific posters and not the setting in general.
Faraer 04-02-07, 11:09 AM	I've read most of 'em, so I'd appreciate a link if you come across anything definite Gary says about the Realms. I think's it's notable how Gary didn't scapegoat the Realms like that minority of Greyhawk grognards did.
ElberethSilverleaf 04-09-07, 10:28 PM	This thread is a ploy to get Eberron fans interested in FRealms. There is an identical thread on the FRealms board concerning Eberron. It's simple marketing, get the people who haven't played on or the other setting to read the posts and maybe they'll but the source books!!! Otherwise this type of thread would have been moved already. Cynical yes but it makes sense.
hiryuu 04-10-07, 04:44 AM	The likelihood of members of this board already owning both sourcebooks is insanely high, this being the official board and all, and everyone here being nerds already. Even so, the likelihood of Wizards feeling they need to advertise on their own mesage boards is pretty slim, as is the likelihood of JulesCARV being put up to it. It's not advertising anymore than a thread asking if Warforged monks can get their class abilities is. That, and the FR book is out of print. It's pointless to advertise for it.
Kid SixXx 04-10-07, 07:39 AM	This thread is a ploy to get Eberron fans interested in FRealms. There is an identical thread on the FRealms board concerning Eberron. What is this? Point / Counterpoint? You pretty much said the opposite of this (ie. CONSPIRACY TO GET FR PEOPLE TO BUY EBERRON BOOKS!) in the "In Praise of Eberron" thread on the FR boards. I tend to agree with Hiryuu. Most of us here are D&D vets from the old school. You can't market FR to us because most likely we've got that stuff already. I personally stopped buying FR books when I got the Eberron campaign, but now find myself getting more of the general purpose books (ie. Tome of Battle, Libris Mortis) than I used to, so there are no cost savings for me.
The Ubbergeek 04-10-07, 07:44 AM	This thread is a ploy to get Eberron fans interested in FRealms. There is an identical thread on the FRealms board concerning Eberron. It's simple marketing, get the people who haven't played on or the other setting to read the posts and maybe they'll but the source books!!! Otherwise this type of thread would have been moved already. Cynical yes but it makes sense. Peoples buy GURPS sourcebooks since ages to use them in their own games and nobody complains. GURPS books have even a great reputations on the quality of their fluff - great researches and creativity. If rpers do it with GURPS, it can be done in D&D with otehr settings books, no? ;) A Good Idea @ is a good idea.