Post/Author/DateTime	Post
galon101 07-17-04, 12:30 AM	Love the new setting, and try to stay true to the Noir,pulp style that it is steeped in. I enjoy the Tomb Robber type feel to my game, and since i continually compare the adventuring party to the famous Dr. Jones. I was curious as to how ole Indy would translate into Eberron? I am also a little unclear as to roughly what levels would make the ideal party>? I get the impression that mind staggering lvls Do Not Eberron Make!!! I enjoy so many of the topics here, and look forward to any and all replies. Scott :angel: "Everyone comes to Rick's"
Dauntless 07-17-04, 01:46 AM	Originally posted by galon101 Love the new setting, and try to stay true to the Noir,pulp style that it is steeped in. I enjoy the Tomb Robber type feel to my game, and since i continually compare the adventuring party to the famous Dr. Jones. I was curious as to how ole Indy would translate into Eberron? I am also a little unclear as to roughly what levels would make the ideal party>? I get the impression that mind staggering lvls Do Not Eberron Make!!! I enjoy so many of the topics here, and look forward to any and all replies. Scott :angel: "Everyone comes to Rick's" Dr. Jones? Probably a rogue/expert/lasher (sword and fist whip using prestige class) There is no real "ideal party" except whatever fits your play style. personally I like starting at first level (or second level occasionally) simply because you're building the characters from the ground up. A first level fighter or wizard is still much better than a common warrior or magewright, so it isn't like the players are just rank and file commoners. I sometimes use second level characters to start simply to give the characters the extra oomph to survive (and also it allows people to start off as 1/1 multi-classed if they like, instead of a warrior mage starting as a first level fighter, adventuring for a while, then spontaneously learning magic...). You're correct in that Eberron doesn't use the silly high-leveled NPCs of certain other campaign worlds. Players should be able to reach the pinacles of power and fame without needing to go into epic levels, imho. It's kind of disheartening in FR when you reach 20th level, become an archmage, and figure out that there are a couple dozen NPCs who are still vastly superior to you. When I finally do start my Eberron game, I plan on slowing down the XP gain early on. I find that some groups tend to fly through the first few levels a bit too quickly for my liking. To make up for this, I plan to start with a few low-combat adventures to minimize combat XP. Depending on what sort of game my players end up deciding on: Combat - Mercenaries for House Deneith, probably a sort of "special operations" unit. Travel - For the players who want a chance to see the world! The House Orien Courier's guild always needs a few more able bodied folks for the tougher and more "interesting" assignments. Dungeon crawl/exploration - Morgrave University is always looking for folks to man (or protect) their expeditions.
MarkB 07-17-04, 05:39 AM	Originally posted by Dauntless Dr. Jones? Probably a rogue/expert/lasher (sword and fist whip using prestige class) Plus a level or two of Extreme Explorer, perhaps. :)
kildaere007 07-17-04, 09:52 AM	If not from a strict recreation but more thematic point, the gnome in my party is patterned after Dr. Jones. He works part time at the Korranberg Library and then goes adventuring to find tasty nuggets to sell to the Library. As the Dm I cant wait to do the Eberron Version of the scene where the Americans show up to quiz Dr. Jones about the Ark of the Covenant.
deganawida 07-17-04, 01:31 PM	Y'all forgot a level or two of ranger, both to cover his wilderness knowledge, and 'cause he has Favored Enemy: Nazis.
Hellcow 07-17-04, 02:10 PM	I know many folks dislike the name, but the extreme explorer was pretty much built with Dr. Jones in mind. Beneath that, i'd actually consider bard (especially for a gnome); sure, Indy never used magic, but the combination of rogueish skills and considerable knowledge certainly fits his character.
deganawida 07-17-04, 03:31 PM	In all seriousness and with all due respect, I have to disagree with Indy having rogue or bard levels. I'll break down my reasons for this disagreement. 1. Rogues have Disable Device. In all the movies, Indy disables zero, yes, zero traps. In fact, he sets off more traps than he avoids (the famous boulder scene). When he does encounter a trapped area, he never locates where the trap is exactly. Then, he either sets off the trap deliberately (the poison darts when light is broken) or breaks them after they have gone off. These types of solutions for bypassing traps are available to all classes, as mentioned in the DMG. 2. Indy never sings, or tells stories. Never. The closest that he gets is in relating ancient legends or histories, and his recitation is not intended for entertainment, but rather education, and is always rather dry. Further, he never inspires anything except anger in his companions. As Bardic Music has become a signature ability of the bard, this rules out that class. (Note: The 1E bard would be a good fit, IMO, but the 2E and 3.xE bards don't work.) 3. Indy's preferred method of dealing with situations is with his fists. Both rogues and bards are infamous for bluffing and diplomacy, yet Indy fails spectacularly at both. In The Last Crusade, he cannot convince the butler that he is a Scottish lord (great scene, one of my favorites). Every other time he dons a disguise, the result is humorous acceptance of the disguise (the sub dock, or the infamous book-burning scene, or even "No ticket!"), which is not what you would expect from a disguise. Further, Indy never uses a sneak attack. Rather, he most often fights his foes face-to-face, either with his revolver or with his fists. For someone who engages in so much combat rather voluntarily, I can't see him being stuck with a 3/4 BAB. 4. As far as Lasher goes, I don't recall Indy ever inflicting normal damage on an enemy with his whip. Rather, he uses it to disarm (and remember that the whip gives a +2 bonus to disarm), to frighten off foes, or to swing. For real damage, he uses his gun or his fists. While I do believe that Extreme Explorer is a perfect fit, I also believe that Indy has one of the warrior classes as his base class, along with a level of Expert. As I stated earlier, I think that he is a Ranger. Throughout the films, he exhibits a rapport with animals (except snakes), some stealth abilities, some searching abilities, great dungeoneering skills, good wilderness skills (remember in Temple of Doom he leads the group through the jungle after the guides run off), he has decent combat abilites (though not as good as super-fighters, like the big Nazi in RotLA or the big slave-driver in ToD (by the way, that's the same actor)), and has a decent number of skill points. Also, he was a full Boy Scout when he was younger, and back then the Scouts really attempted to teach boys all the skills that American Indian hunters used (it's been watered down, though, in the last few decades), which means that he would know quite a bit about survival. His HP aren't the greatest, but are good enough to last him fight-after-fight against Nazis and Thugees. The only full BAB class that gives all that is the Ranger. I'd place him as a Ranger 3/Expert 1/Extreme Explorer 4. The Expert level would give him 10 Knowledge skills that would forevermore be class skills, the EE would give him Trap Sense +2 and Dodge Bonus +2, as well as Extreme Action (to represent all those crazy stunts he pulls time after time), the Ranger levels give him the aforementioned abilities, and he ends up with a BAB of +6/+1 and proficiency with all martial weapons (he knows how to use every weapon that he comes across in the films). Anyway, that's my analysis of Indy.
Hellcow 07-17-04, 04:21 PM	Originally posted by deganawida 2. As Bardic Music has become a signature ability of the bard, this rules out that class. (Note: The 1E bard would be a good fit, IMO, but the 2E and 3.xE bards don't work.) I must respectfully disagree. All bardic music abilities require at least 3 ranks of Perform. As you point out, there is nothing indicating Indy has any skill with Perform. I never said he was a sensible use of the Bard class; the reason I see Bard is because of the skill set. Looking to Bard Skills, I'd choose Appraise, Balance, Climb, Decipher Script, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (all, but specifically Arcana, History, Dungeoneering, and probably Religion), Listen, Move Silently, Profession (teacher), Tumble. Plus, Bardic Knowledge is actually the big thing that suggested the class to me. I think that there is a lot to suggest Ranger. Survival is, after all, a prereq for EE, and he does fight a lot (although to me, the point of the famous "shoot the swordsman" scene in the first movie is that he's outclassed and he's not going to play fair). But I'll stick to at least 1 level of bard for bardic knowledge alone -- given my observation about lack of Perform, do you really see a reason to take Expert over Bard? The Expert level would give him 10 Knowledge skills that would forevermore be class skills Err... How's that? By page 62 of the PHB, skills that are class skills for any class you possess have a maximum level of character level +3 -- but you still purchase them as class or cross-class skills based on the class level you just advanced in. Just because you have 1 level of rogue doesn't make 75% of the skills in the book class skills for your Rog 1/Ftr9. So with 1 level of expert, Knowledge skills beyond those of the ranger class are still considered cross-class when you take a ranger level -- and remember, Indy is a butt-kicking archaeologist, not a professional soldier who just knows a little bit about archaeology. The Education feat would get you Knowledge as a permanent class skill, but that won't help with things like Decipher Script or Appraise, both of which I'd argue are important for a professional archaeologist (whether it happens in the movies or not, do you really think Indy can't spot a fake?). So I'm willing to buy on the ranger, but I'd split it with bard. And yes, you could split it with expert instead, but I'm assuming we're making him as a PC, and as a PC, why would you? Plus, as I said, it's all about the bardic knowledge for me (and I listed 16 potentially useful bard class skills, not even counting other types of Knowledge...).
deganawida 07-17-04, 04:39 PM	Originally posted by Hellcow But I'll stick to at least 1 level of bard for bardic knowledge alone -- given my observation about lack of Perform, do you really see a reason to take Expert over Bard? Okay, I can see that. I guess that I was giving greater emphasis to the bardic music abilities rather than to the selection of class skills or bardic lore. Err... How's that? By page 62 of the PHB, skills that are class skills for any class you possess have a maximum level of character level +3 -- but you still purchase them as class or cross-class skills based on the class level you just advanced in. D'oh! I've never caught that part before. I had just figured that page 59 was the only section that dealt with it. And here I've been wondering what advantage the Human Paragon Class "permanent class skill" feature was in 3.5. Thanks, Keith, and sorry for dropping the ball on that one. The Education feat would get you Knowledge as a permanent class skill, but that won't help with things like Decipher Script or Appraise, both of which I'd argue are important for a professional archaeologist (whether it happens in the movies or not, do you really think Indy can't spot a fake?). Good point. Indy would be able to tell if something is a fake. So I'm willing to buy on the ranger, but I'd split it with bard. And yes, you could split it with expert instead, but I'm assuming we're making him as a PC, and as a PC, why would you? Plus, as I said, it's all about the bardic knowledge for me (and I listed 16 potentially useful bard class skills, not even counting other types of Knowledge...). Well, the DMG does list Expert as an NPC class that a PC might want to take a few levels in. I'll freely admit, though, that it is sub-optimal when compared to some other classes; but, as I said before, I was too focused on the bardic music issue and not other issues. As for split-level progression with ranger, sure, your arguments have convinced me. Maybe R3/B3/EE3? Don't want him to be too powerful. Thanks for sharing your opinion.
deganawida 07-17-04, 04:45 PM	Originally posted by Hellcow (although to me, the point of the famous "shoot the swordsman" scene in the first movie is that he's outclassed and he's not going to play fair) This doesn't really fit in with the previous post, but have you heard the real reason that scene was shot in that manner? Originally, he was supposed to duke it out with the guy and win, but Ford was suffering from dysentary and couldn't do any action scenes without, ahem, "messing" them up. So, right before they shot the scene, he approached Spielburg and suggested the alteration, and they went for it. It ended up being one of the most memorable scenes of the series. As far as I view it, it was Indy not wanting to fight the guy and demonstrating contempt for him bringing a sword to a gun-fight (that's derived from the curl of his lip as he looks as the dude).
Hellcow 07-17-04, 04:51 PM	Originally posted by deganawida Maybe R3/B3/EE3? Don't want him to be too powerful. That's exactly what I was getting on to suggest. Draw his eductation skills from bard and his physical skills from ranger. He gets a +5 BAB from the base classes (as opposed to a +6 if he went straight ranger). And it avoids the issue of animal companion or any real magical strength (and as far as magic goes, I could certainly see giving him identify and perhaps expeditious retreat for when he's outrunning boulders!) And for what it's worth, while he's not supposed to be an accurate depiction by any means, Halas Martain in Chapter Nine is indeed a Belloc homage. Originally, he was supposed to duke it out with the guy and win, but Ford was suffering from dyssentary and couldn't do any action scenes without, ahem, "messing" them up. So, right before they shot the scene, he approached Spielburg and suggested the alteration, and they went for it. In the version I heard, he didn't even talk it out with Spielberg -- he just did it and they liked it. But either way, I heard the story and thought it was great!
simon brumat 07-17-04, 05:20 PM	i wouldn't spoil a perfecty good character with levels in....B.b....ba...bar......d!!!! :twitch: :twitch: :twitch: no disrespect B..bardic knowledge is understandable. How about artificer...artificer knowledge may make sence as he generally seeks items.;) human paragon sounds good. OOOhh and favoured enemy snakes for ranger sorry if i seem a bit insane.:D
galon101 07-18-04, 12:02 AM	All i can say is thank you. I love Indiana Jones, and am trying to model my character after Dr. Jones, and to even hear from the Creator himself on my thread. Wow. thanks!!! scott :angel: "We named the dog Indiana."
Templar_Prime 07-18-04, 12:03 AM	Originally posted by deganawida This doesn't really fit in with the previous post, but have you heard the real reason that scene was shot in that manner? Originally, he was supposed to duke it out with the guy and win, but Ford was suffering from dysentary and couldn't do any action scenes without, ahem, "messing" them up. So, right before they shot the scene, he approached Spielburg and suggested the alteration, and they went for it. It ended up being one of the most memorable scenes of the series. As far as I view it, it was Indy not wanting to fight the guy and demonstrating contempt for him bringing a sword to a gun-fight (that's derived from the curl of his lip as he looks as the dude). Yup. And the swordsman was rather angry at being cut out.
Auburn 07-18-04, 01:37 AM	Don't know if this will affect anyone's statting of Dr. Jones or even how it would affect it if it did, but he seemed like he wasn't a very good teacher. He couldn't get anyone's grades in on time, and the students were mobbing his office if I remember Last Crusade correctly. It certainly seemed like the college or university he worked for kept him on for his research skills far more than for his teaching skills. I think the school president or the museum curator even makes a comment in Last Crusade about how his discoveries keep the donations rolling in.
KCDinc 07-18-04, 02:29 AM	I don't think Doctor Jones should have skill points reduced from teaching just because he never stays at his office and is thus swamped. And yes its true that the shooting the swordsman scene WAS changed last minute because Ford was sick. BUT there is a scene in Temple of Doom paroding this very same scene as Indy is confronted by swordsmen and reaches for his gun...whoops its not there! So he is forced to fight, and win against the swordman. But I do agree he is most definently not of a pure fighter class, as he still gets his butt kicked by several characters over the movies, often winnning through brains over brawn. On the idea of character levels, there are two inherent problems. The first being that no single class can cover all the abilities of characters like Indy, they are singular heros that more or less do it all. On top of that we are talking about D&D classes designed around a different time period then Pre-WWII earth. You cant make an argument that he cant be X class because they cast spells, all D&D classes have acess to UMD and magical devices, the whole point is what a character uses. There is much from the bards class that would seem logical for Indy, but there are parts that are not. All classes have parts that would not fit though, so its not a negating factor. And saying he wouldnt be a bard just cause you do not like bards is silly.
Banshee 07-18-04, 08:53 PM	Originally posted by Dauntless Dr. Jones? Probably a rogue/expert/lasher (sword and fist whip using prestige class) There is no real "ideal party" except whatever fits your play style. personally I like starting at first level (or second level occasionally) simply because you're building the characters from the ground up. A first level fighter or wizard is still much better than a common warrior or magewright, so it isn't like the players are just rank and file commoners. I sometimes use second level characters to start simply to give the characters the extra oomph to survive (and also it allows people to start off as 1/1 multi-classed if they like, instead of a warrior mage starting as a first level fighter, adventuring for a while, then spontaneously learning magic...). You're correct in that Eberron doesn't use the silly high-leveled NPCs of certain other campaign worlds. Players should be able to reach the pinacles of power and fame without needing to go into epic levels, imho. It's kind of disheartening in FR when you reach 20th level, become an archmage, and figure out that there are a couple dozen NPCs who are still vastly superior to you. When I finally do start my Eberron game, I plan on slowing down the XP gain early on. I find that some groups tend to fly through the first few levels a bit too quickly for my liking. To make up for this, I plan to start with a few low-combat adventures to minimize combat XP. Depending on what sort of game my players end up deciding on: Combat - Mercenaries for House Deneith, probably a sort of "special operations" unit. Travel - For the players who want a chance to see the world! The House Orien Courier's guild always needs a few more able bodied folks for the tougher and more "interesting" assignments. Dungeon crawl/exploration - Morgrave University is always looking for folks to man (or protect) their expeditions. This is one aspect that I actually don't like about Eberron. I like the idea of not having everyone and their grandmother being high level....but I don't think Eberron has *enough* high level characters....there is tonnes of magic in the setting, and somebody has to have created it all....and a bunch of lvl 1 magewrights won't have the ability to do so. FR seems like a lot, and probably does have a lot....but if you take a look at it, there are how many *million* people in Faerun to generate those numbers of high level characters? I don't think it's out of reason. For Eberron to have so few high level characters makes the world more feel somewhat more static, and more....I don't know....feels like the whole world revolves around the PCs.....kind of self-centered. That's not quite a feel that I like. It also causes problems....ie. the aforementioned difficulties with having enough people to generate the magic that's around. Or problems with training. I use the training system from the DMG in my games....but with so few high level characters, it makes it really difficult for the characters to find anyone with more knowledge than themselves. This all having been said, before someone jumps on me, I do *really* like the Eberron setting. It seems to have a lot going for it, and it's refreshing to see. Not quite a Planescape or Dark Sun, but there is some cool stuff going on, and I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with the setting. With regards to the numbers of high level characters, I'll probably change that for my own campaign. As to Indiana Jones, I think he'd be a rogue/expert/extreme explorer. However, given the opportunity to use any prestige classes from D20 sources, I'd actually make him either a rogue/archaeologist/extreme explorer (archaeologist prestige class from Swashbuckling Adventures) or a rogue/adventuring scholar (adventuring scholar from the Monsternomicon, Iron Kingdoms setting). Banshee
ENHenry 07-19-04, 10:01 AM	Bah. Indiana Jones was a Warrior/Expert/Extreme Explorer, and that's all there is to it. ;)
demonpunk 07-19-04, 10:26 AM	I'd say he was an Unfettered from Arcana Unearthed. :D