Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Solmyr 08-10-04, 02:47 AM	What do you think could be the Eberron equivalent of the Nazis from the Indiana Jones movies? By this I mean a powerful, likely state-supported or at least dragonmarked house-supported organization with plenty of resources, armed forces, and an interest in ancient artifacts used for increasing its power. Please don't argue about Nazi ideology here. I'm only referring to them in the context of the Indiana Jones movies. :)
Save_vs_DM 08-10-04, 02:59 AM	Order of the Emerlad Claw. They have the support of the Blood of Vol. I think that would work well with a few very minor tweaks. Cheers, Save vs DM
Reguba 08-10-04, 04:39 AM	The Blood of Vol is an extinguished, dying "house", man. I'd try maybe getting an informant inside either House Deneith or one of the Shadow-marked houses to fund the "Nazi's". I think it's a pretty badass idea myself. Just don't let your players in on it or they'll be making smartass remarks the whole session. One of the DM's in my area wanted to do a sort of I, Robot campaign when he read up on warforged.....we'll never let him live it down.
JDubTrafficGod 08-10-04, 06:17 AM	Thrane and the Silver Flame. Perfect Nazi's, only better (that’s a contradiction.) They believe in strongly in what they are doing. Because their leaders are also their priests/religious leaders any orders come from not only the monarchy, but also from "God." With their past being involved in genocide and intolerance they remind me of what the Nazi's would have been like should they have been kept in check. I've already used a group of the Silver Flame against my PCs. I made the Silver Flame appear to be deadly and efficient, and one of my players already mentioned that the tactics (hard and fast attacks) they used, and the way they seemed was very Nazi-esk. I know someone will think I'm crazy for thinking they are the Nazi's, but really I'm just using the material I've been given.
JDubTrafficGod 08-10-04, 06:17 AM	Sorry, Double Post.
Myriddian 08-10-04, 08:07 AM	Originally posted by JDubTrafficGod Thrane and the Silver Flame. Perfect Nazi's, only better (that’s a contradiction.) They believe in strongly in what they are doing. Because their leaders are also their priests/religious leaders any orders come from not only the monarchy, but also from "God." With their past being involved in genocide and intolerance they remind me of what the Nazi's would have been like should they have been kept in check. I've already used a group of the Silver Flame against my PCs. I made the Silver Flame appear to be deadly and efficient, and one of my players already mentioned that the tactics (hard and fast attacks) they used, and the way they seemed was very Nazi-esk. I know someone will think I'm crazy for thinking they are the Nazi's, but really I'm just using the material I've been given. This is what I've sort of been doing but I have made the church appear more fractured under the surface there is goodness and kindness but also evil and intolerance.
JDubTrafficGod 08-10-04, 08:24 AM	I'm glad Myriddian agrees with me cause for a minute there I thought I was alone in feeling that the Silver Flame were similar to Nazis. The more you think about the nation of Thrane and its power structure (Church vs Government) the more you realize the similarities of Thrane and Pre-WWII Germany (Nazi Party vs Existing Government.) Well, thats about it.
MarkB 08-10-04, 10:18 AM	Personally, I'd go for Karrnath. King Kaius is genuinely committed to the supremacy of his own people, but also utterly dedicated, ruthless and uncaring of any others. He's got plenty of motivation for finding anything that could defeat certain ancient undead, including powerful old relics, and the Karrnathi undead armies make the perfect 'Indiana Jones nazi' soldiers - faceless, disposable, utterly dedicated, but not too bright.
Sarig the Genie 08-10-04, 11:01 AM	I think I shall use both *g*
Teslacoil1138 08-10-04, 11:51 AM	Hm, what happens when the Silver Flame "Nazi" army meets the Karrn "Nazi" undead army? They are sworn enemies... Other than that I agree on the majority of the points made.
Docrailgun 08-10-04, 12:14 PM	They're called the "Church of the Silver Flame". They've already purged the world of lycanthropes in an Inqusition, and they're not above doing it again. They feel that they're always right, and the end justifies the means. The Church controls the nation of Thrane quite throughly, and they expect all the citizens of Thrane to work in the best interests of the Silver Flame. Originally posted by Solmyr What do you think could be the Eberron equivalent of the Nazis from the Indiana Jones movies? By this I mean a powerful, likely state-supported or at least dragonmarked house-supported organization with plenty of resources, armed forces, and an interest in ancient artifacts used for increasing its power. Please don't argue about Nazi ideology here. I'm only referring to them in the context of the Indiana Jones movies. :)
MarkB 08-10-04, 12:40 PM	Originally posted by Docrailgun They're called the "Church of the Silver Flame". They've already purged the world of lycanthropes in an Inqusition, and they're not above doing it again. They feel that they're always right, and the end justifies the means. The Church controls the nation of Thrane quite throughly, and they expect all the citizens of Thrane to work in the best interests of the Silver Flame. While that's all true, you shouldn't let it overwhelm the fact that they are inspired by a divine consciousness, and except when they take its word too literally (or when the demonic element manages to slip out some bad guidance), they are, generally, doing right - and most of the people of Thrane support them 100%. This is, of course, what makes them all the more dangerous - if they do go off on the wrong course, they follow that course without question, because they believe in the utter rightness of their cause - but Thrane's excesses should be portrayed as an occasional and unpredictable occurance rather than the normal situation, or else they become too one-dimensional, and you risk losing some of what makes them interesting.
Kid SixXx 08-10-04, 12:50 PM	Originally posted by MarkB While that's all true, you shouldn't let it overwhelm the fact that they are inspired by a divine consciousness, and except when they take its word too literally (or when the demonic element manages to slip out some bad guidance), they are, generally, doing right - and most of the people of Thrane support them 100%. If your real-life logic is distrustful of organized religion, then I could see how Thrane could seem to be a bad place. Otherwise, I see Thrane as a fantasy version of Vatican City. ie. a city ruled by a fairly benevolent theocracy... ...depending on whom you ask, naturally...
Pocket Ace Pretender 08-10-04, 12:54 PM	Originally posted by Solmyr What do you think could be the Eberron equivalent of the Nazis from the Indiana Jones movies? By this I mean a powerful, likely state-supported or at least dragonmarked house-supported organization with plenty of resources, armed forces, and an interest in ancient artifacts used for increasing its power. The Aurum. Powerful, lots of resources, plenty of goons, and very power hungry.
Edymnion 08-10-04, 10:42 PM	Agreed, the Church of the Silver Flame is what you want. I was thinking "Children of the Light" from the instant I started reading their entry. For those that aren't Wheel of Time fans, the Children of the Light are supposed to be a group of holy warriors that run around smiting evil and making the world safe for good people everywhere. In reality, they're bigotted, serve their own ends with religious fanatisism, and are not above torturing confessions out of the innocent. They think they're appointed by the Creator to keep the peace, and the power goes right to their heads. Sounds like the Nazi's to me.
Raffadus 08-11-04, 01:13 AM	There are many organizations that are Nazi like but none that are an exact fit. Karrnath with it's millitary dictatorship has the political structure of a Nazi like society. And as MarkB noted their undead army does bear a resemblance to the common nazi foot soldier. karrnath would be an almost perfect fit except that Kaius is the strongest supporter of peace out of any of the monarchs. He was the first to sign the treaty of thronehold and has sent his brother and sister off to Thrane and Breland in an exchange program of sorts to help keep the peace. That and Kaius has outlawed the emerald claw and broken ties with The Blood of Vol. So it doesnt have the merging of government and church that the Nazi's had, plus I dont recall any information about Karrnath believing in racial or ethnic superiority, or espousing genocide. Like others have said Thrane seems to have some of the same qualities as Nazi Germany. It has a very intolerate and genocidal tendencies( I should note that these views are held by a minority of silver flame worshippers), it is a militaristic theocracy, and is very progressive in carrying its views to the outside world. But there is a problem if you have read page 209 of the ECS under Adventuring in Thrane it says " It proclaims to be a bastion of lawful good ideals(and it is), but it fosters as much corruption as any secular nation. Thrane and the church of the silver flame are basicly good with a few bad apples who have committed attrocities in their name. And the current Keeper of the Flame Jaela Daran believes war is a futile effort. That being said you could easily turn Thrane into a more Nazi like state. I would suggest having the council of Cardinals specifically one High Cardinal Krozen (LE male human, cleric 12) take more direct controll over the church and state by controlling or some how relieving the keeper of the flame of her duties through some sort of elaborate plot. This way you can have Thrane be a more Nazi like state with plans for world domination, and you have a way for the pc's to defeat such a powerful organization, i.e return the true keeper of the flame to power. You could say that Krozen is actually a worshipper of the "Crimson Flame", or if you like a follower of the demonic enity within the flame. Krozen has contacted the demon and seeks to replace the true keeper of the flame so that he can subvert the church of the silver flame and free the demon from his prison, and thus become the right hand of the demonic power as it rises to Godhood and plunges the world into darkness. If you dont like that idea dont forget about the nation of Aundair. Both Queen Aurala and her brother Adal want to see the Galifar crwn on the head of an Aundair lord. Add in a bit of ethnic superority, propaganda, and some destinctive looking shock troppers and presto Nazi like state. I am sure you can make a few minor changes to many of the organization with in Eberron and come up with something very close to the Nazi party.
JDubTrafficGod 08-11-04, 05:59 AM	On the note that Thrane is mostly good with a few bad apples spoiling the bunch, so was Germany. I just think the idea of pitching the PCs against enemies who arn't just evil to be evil, but rather are good aligned but doing evil deeds in the name of good. It bends alignment in very much the way the Eberron book describes it. I can't wait for a Paladin to try and use smite on a guy doing something horrid only to find that Mr.Horrids alignment is LG.
ENHenry 08-11-04, 10:17 AM	The thing is, I can't see the Church of Thrane initiating a pogrom against anyone BUT lycanthropes; The Nazis targeted Jews, Catholics, political parties, you name it. A mostly good party of Sovereign Host worshippers might get an evil eye or suspicious glance, but not necessarily have a bunch of Silver flame clerics lining up to threaten them. Plus, if you want "Indiana Jones" style Nazis, they need to be going to other countries even ones they don't control to steal artifacts and break bones of innocent folks. Emerald Claw has already been seen doing all that.
Raffadus 08-11-04, 12:30 PM	I dont think it is so much of a streach to believe the church of the silver flame could adopt a Convert or I'll kill you additude. I think the whole point of the organization is that they are a powerful good aligned force that can become easily misguided. As for the emerald claw they deffenitely have some very Nazi like qualities. They have the storm troopers, the artifact stealing, the large powerful organization, and the semi religious aspect with the blood of Vol. But they do lack a critical aspect. They arent supported by a state. Karrnath has band them and disavowed any dealings with the emerald claw. It would give them alot more strength if they had a country or region which openly and directly supported them. Right now they seem to be part secret society part terrorist organization part crime cartel. But that could be easily fixed by giving them a region of their own. If on the other hand you are just looking for a world wide power group to use to trip up your players and steal artifacts emerald claw may be a better choice than the church of the silver flame
Jinlong 08-13-04, 02:42 AM	I get the feeling the thread originator was looking for a Nazi-esque enemy as far as being power-hungry war-mongering conquerers go, not as far as the racial prejudices (Which featured very little in Indiana Jones). My suggestion would be to simply modify either of the two organizations to fit the role you're looking for more readily. Noone says you can't use DM's perogative and change the campaign world ever so slightly. If you wish, you can set up a campaign world where all the high-clergy of the Silver flame have been possessed by a demon (A la Mephisto in D2) and incite the rest of Thrane into militarisation again. Meanwhile, both the PCs and the demons want certain artifacts- the PCs to sell or put in a museum, the demons because it will secure their power and possession of the clergy in this plane. If the PCs are smart, they'll fit together the bigger picture by finding the common thread in the artefacts sought, realize that there are demonic forces at work, and set out on a quest to exorcise the high priests before the world erupts into a holy war. It's an idea, at least. Or you could just make King Whatshisface drop the whole pacifist act. You're the DM.
Endless_Helix 08-13-04, 08:41 AM	The Emerald Claw would be the easiest fit, but What about the Lord of Blades? He's got all of the Nazi qualities, and he's even got a good reason to go after hidden artifacts and he's got a supremicist policy.
Zen Storm 08-13-04, 12:33 PM	The Emerald Claw has alot of similarities to the Nazi party before it bacame the Nazi party. I believe they were called the "Brown shirts" and were a political/ terrorist type organization that sought to undermine and overthrow the then current German govt. Very similar to how the Emerald Claw are described. The Lord of Blades and the warforged and the parallels to the post WWI/ Pre WWII Germany have been discussed in other threads and make for a great story line that mirrors the war torn land (Germany/Mournlands) and disgruntled and angry and desperate people (Germans/warforged) seeking to regain a glory that has been lost. A charismatically scarry voice with promises of a return to greatness and a military build up that is for the most part unseen and unknown and ignored by any of the neighbors of that land. Well, thats the way I sees it anyway.
CrusaderX 08-15-04, 10:41 PM	Originally posted by Solmyr Please don't argue about Nazi ideology here. I'm only referring to them in the context of the Indiana Jones movies. :) Then it would be the Emerald Claw all the way, for the reasons mentioned above.
ChrisTheS 08-16-04, 01:23 AM	There are a lot of factions that could work for that, but so far, the only ones which seem close to the Jonesian Nazi type are the Emerald Claw (i.e. in search of ancient artifacts for the purposes of iron-fist world domination; the Aurum is more concerned with economic domination, and the other choices don't have the Emerald Claw's total disregard for social stability). Thrane I see as being more like France under Louis XIII, with the Keeper acting the part of both impressionable King and persecuted Queen to Krozen's overbearing and controlling Richelieu. I also have my own views regarding Karrnath, but they're a bit difficult to elaborate at the moment, so I'll hold off until I can explain them better.
Markab 08-31-04, 01:31 AM	the daakani are an almost perfect fit. dictatorship, empire building, militaristic, racial superiority, goons, they hunt for artifacts. they are cocky and you don't have to twist anything for them to fit really. Lesh Volaar is the tribe you want if you want artifact finding missions. second choice is the emerald claw
Lara Flynn 08-31-04, 08:42 AM	Indiana Jones Nazis: The Order of the Emerald Claw. Read "Shadows of the Last War". They are perfect. I won't reason for this, I think it's pretty obvious. But I'll go on with some thoughts on the above mentioned groups and their general style and how to make it more nazi-like. 1) The Order of the Emerald Claw The order is not officially supported by Karranath anymore but that does not mean that no one in the government supports them... servants of the Blod of Vol may be everywhere and bringing Kaius down is probably the aim of more than one sinister "trusted ally" at his court. This gives them support by the government, not completely unlike the attention Hitler received. Furthermore they claim working for the country, helping it, but that'll lead to its destruction. Seems like the Nazis to me. Then there is the base, some crowd of soldiers and pawns really believing to be rogue fighters for Karranath, while there is an elite which guides the actions from behind, the Blod of Vol. The structure of every "good" dictatorship. Plus the Order is always seeking for artifacts and can be found everywhere. What they lack is hatred for other races and the like, especially considering that Vol herself is a half-dragon. But then again Hitlers outward appearance didn't stop him from telling the world that people should have blue eyes and blonde hair. And believing in blood as the key to immortality and stuff it is easily imaginable that certain blood serves better than other. Their only real lack is that they don't rule a country and thus cannot act as huge war machine as Germany did during the Nazi years. and of course doing Diplomacy with the Order could be even more complicated than it was with Germany (Hitler always stating: I want, I want, I want...), because appeasement politics wouln' work on the Order at all. 2) The Lord of the Blades and the renegade warforged They are perfect when it comes to superiority and intolerance. But the Lord of the Blades had only two years time. No doubt that he has his influence and can be a daring opponent to partys but he's not that group you epect to operate big time out of the Mournland (as the Emerald Claw does it in "Shadows of the Last War".) They are more like the Nazis rising in power, not like those we perceive in Indiana Jones, when their power was at full height. 3) Karranath Has its undead soldiers as armed forces. Certainly a +. But Kaius himself is threatened by the Blood of Vol and has his own secret to guard. Plus he aims for peace. Does not work for the typical Nazi. And I doubt that someone else is able to compete in power when it comes to Kaius authority. That's why I assume that some membes of the court support the Order. Final statement: Nah. 4) Thrane Thrane would be cool, because you've such a commitment. But then again Nazi Germany had nothing like the ex-queen wanting her throne back (the resistance was not like that and Stauffenberg and the other would-be assasinators neither). And then there is Jaela, currently ulimately holding the power. If she wants to she can make a decision alone - without the council at all. She does not as to keep her power and sleep without the fear of not waking up the next day I guess, but she is the de facto ruler, if she wants to. Her being much more subtle does not change the very fact. I think Jaela will never allow something like the inquisiton to happen again. That is what makes the Church of the Silver Flame not suitable as a potential Nazi actor. And one should consider that the Flame itself chooses the keeper, not the council. So there is no way to have a puppet holding the throne of Thrane. There will always be someone able to fight the council which makes it difficult. And I assume that the people believe more in the flame and the keeper than in anything else thus overthrowing the system as it works would probably make the people go rioting. So the council is a powerful actor and it can cause a lot of trouble but I doubt that it will ever be able to turn Thrane alone. Though a cool idea would be that demon and an unholy alliance and kinda Nazi enabling act. But that's somehow large scale and has nothing to do with the Nazis presented in Indiana Jones or the Nazis at all. And it would be a huge change in current Eberron, probably unbalancing the equilibrium and acting as a catalyst for a new Last War. 5) The Aurum No. Why? It's too secretive, it's interests are too diverse and too many races in one organisation. Plus there is probably no standing army. 6) Auandair Possible. But they are so traditional. When Germany started the war they were technically superior to the other countries, but Auandair? In addition Auandair does absolutely not suit the flair of Indiana Jones. They don't work large scale and overt outside the country. They are more like Britain which once had an empire and now only a small isle in the middle of nowhere (sorry brits ;)). They could become a Nazi regime, but it's kinda unlikely. 7) The Dhaakani Empire Dargunn first, then the world. They are a very powerful toy in the hands of a DM but also more an emerging thread compared to what the Emerald Claw is already "today".
Slizaro 08-31-04, 11:16 AM	The backing of a nation never realy comes into great effect in Indiana Jones (at least not from what I remember). However if you wanted an orginization that was backed by a powerfull force and has less than questionable motives, the Dreaming Dark is backed by an entire plane of beings seeking world domination. And you don't realy need a non-secritive orginization because the Previlance of Nazi germany again is not of large effect in Indiana Jones, they just have to "somehow always be there". The 3 main groups I see as fiting the bill to interfear with players the way the Nazi's did with Indiana Jones would be : The Emerald Claw, The Arum, and the Dreaming Dark. I don't like the nations because I can't see them poping up in enough diverse locations to have the same effect. Of course if you are adventuring in Xen'drik or such almost Any orginization would work, seperated from the main continent a currupt leader can twist a group toward acting in a more nazi-esq fasion.
lord zog 08-31-04, 12:21 PM	If you're looking at a longer term comapign model, look at the country that got screwed over the most by the war. One of the main reasons the Nazis swept into power was because they helped get Germany back on its feat and gave its populance a scapegoat to focus their attentions on as a means of recovering from the right royal screwing they got from France. Most of the Nazis that Indy ended up fighting were actually just loyal soldiers lead by some evil nutters looking to further their own personal causes by being 'on the winning side' .
Doc Phobia 10-22-04, 09:01 PM	I would say, with maybe a couple of exceptions, that every single power group could be used in the same way as the Nazi's in the Indy films. Every single power group in Eberron is going to want artifact X that will put them in a position of power over everyone else. And remember, too, that the bad-guys in the Indy films were using the Nazi's for their own ends - Belloq in Raiders and Donovan in Last Crusade. All you need is a 'bad apple' group or individual using the otherwise lawful-good (or whatever) organisation to get what they want. The footsoldiers will do what they can to thwart the party once they've been told that the party are the real baddies. ;)