Information Networks: Who's better than who? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Information Networks: Who's better than who? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AvonRekaes
11-09-07, 06:30 AM The Trust, The Serpentine Table, the Shadow Network, the Royal Eyes of Aundaire, the King's Dark Lanterns...

All of these organizations are basically made up of spies, assassins, and information gatherers. Sometimes I find it difficult, as a DM, to decide on the spot whether any of them know about a certain clandestine operation that, say, the PCs are trying to stop. Whether they have concurrent plans in motion to aid the PCs, aid the operation, or are completely neutral to the outcome (or even if they know about it in the first place), would be pretty handy to know.

Sometimes these clandestine operations might involve other organizations of the same kind.

In short, I was looking for opinions on which is the best intelligence agency, who's better than who, who's as good as who, who needs work in some areas, and the like.

For example, the King's Dark Lanterns are described as the best national intelligence agency. Except the Royal Eyes of Aundaire make better use of scrying magic and the Order of the Emerald Claw (when it was legal) was able to assassinate Cyre's ruler twice. And they don't compare it to either Dragonmarked house of the Mark of Shadow.

I'm not even sure of all the intelligence agencies out there. I'm pretty sure there's something in Thrane, but I don't know what it's called. Also, the Lords of Dust could be considered an intelligence agency of sorts, as they're spread out and infiltrated in all levels of society.

So basically, I'm looking for a list of who's most likely to know about a given clandestine event, in descending order.
Identitystolen
11-09-07, 08:59 AM My opinion and really is arbitrary:

*Dreaming Dark- Heavily psionic based and has access to peoples dreams. Also immortal, so they can afford to stretch plans across centuries if need be.
*Lords of Dust- Very much like the Dreaming dark, but without the psionic resources and much more prone to infighting.
*The Trust- Gnomes have a great history of espionage, both domestic and foreign , and see it as a great game.
*The Chamber- Always trying to gather information about the prophecy, The Chamber has come across tons of information and put several plots into motion over the centuries. The extremely long life span and indirect informaion obtained via the Prophecy also gives the dragons an edge.
*House Philarlan- Mark of the Shadow and a long history of gathering and providing information for a price makes Philarlan a major player in any spy game.
*House Thuranni- The splinter house from Philaran is more for wet work than intelligence gathering in my belief, but still very good at gathering info and selling it.
*The Aurum- Knowledge is power, and power is something the Aurum definitely wans more of. Using high placed connections, and tons of gold and platinum, the Aurum specializes in blackmail and to a lesser extent infiltration. Also other resources (such as artifacts and ancient tomes) provided by its members make the Aurum a force in the shadows.
*The Citadel (Breland)- Probably the most active and largest espionage agency in the five nations. Active threats are always common inside and outside of Breland, thus the Citadel is always busy.
*Royal Eyes of Aundair- Currently very active in foreign espionage and has a lot of arcane based resources on hand. Also, I don't believe the Eyes are exactly the largest agency either.
*Order of the Emerald Claw- More of a smash and grab type agency, but can be subtle when need be. While maybe not as great as a information gathering sources as Breland and Aundair, it has much larger pool of resources to draw from.
*Karrnath Sercret Police- Group I made up as nothing named popped up in the books. Loyal the the Crown of Karrnath, the KSP is used to find and neutralize any threat to the crown and country. Given how divided Karrnath is currently, the KSP is really tied down to domestic problems to engage in any foreign espionage.
*House Medani- Not truly a spying agency, Medani does investigates across every spectrum of society in Khorvaire and comes across lots of information. Knocked down in the ranks as they don't spread this information but probably will retain it for leverage and for future investigative use.

I'm sure I've seen a Thranish agency somewhere, but I forget where.... But its never come up in my campaigns so I don't care! :P
Also there are a ton of localized espionage groups through out the world. The Cabinet of Faces would be a good example in Sharn. Also The Twelve and the Arcane Congress can come into play if it involves a powerful artifact or arcane information.
Alex_
11-09-07, 11:40 AM In short, I was looking for opinions on which is the best intelligence agency, who's better than who, who's as good as who, who needs work in some areas, and the like...

So basically, I'm looking for a list of who's most likely to know about a given clandestine event, in descending order.

I go with, "who's going to be in the campaign, and what do I want them to do." Cuts down on a lot of planning and concerns for stuff I'm not going to use.

Why do I care what the Dreaming Dark knows about the PCs being in Xen'drik if I have no intention of introducing them into the game? Same for the Royal Eyes of Aundair, or even the Chamber. They could know nothing, or they could know everything. It doesn't matter.

However, I may want the Trust to be in the game, so they'll know ABC, because this will give them enough justification to do XYZ, which is what I want them to do in this campaign.
AvonRekaes
11-09-07, 11:57 AM I like to keep my bases covered for when the PCs jump the rails. So I usually plan for as many eventualities as possible.

Also, I like to keep internal consistency in my gameworld, so I like to get a handle on which groups I could most likely introduce, depending on which groups are more likely to know something.
Yakman
11-09-07, 01:23 PM I like to keep my bases covered for when the PCs jump the rails. So I usually plan for as many eventualities as possible.

Also, I like to keep internal consistency in my gameworld, so I like to get a handle on which groups I could most likely introduce, depending on which groups are more likely to know something.

to keep the discussion completely academic, i would make the following remarks:

* the Trust - well-nigh all-powerful within Zilargo. They know what's going on for pretty much everything going on within the settled regions with a good number of agents scattered throughout the rest of Khorvaire, but their capacities beyond Zilargo and Breland are fairly limited. They have a sizeable operation in Stormreach as well.

* the Lords of Dust - they know pretty much everything that they need to know. their problem is the distribution of the information, because they don't share data between differing power structures. but their theoretical capacities are pretty incredible.

* the Dreaming Dark - they know most everything occurring in Sarlona save Adar. in khorvaire, their capacity fluctuates wildly as different quori switch in and out of empty vessels. they have a small, but powerful cell in Stormreach, but many of their members have been lost exploring the wilds of Xen'drik, although their efforts have not been diminished by failure.

* Phiarlan/Thuranni - peerless. can't be beat in the acquisition of information. this is partially why the Riedrans have been exceptionally anxious with elves and foreigners coming to their empire - they aren't quite clear about what the house of shadows can do, but they have learned of their reputation in khorvaire and are a bit concerned.
RedRider
11-09-07, 01:23 PM Well, I'd say the top three in terms of sheer competence, active in Khorvaire would be:

1: The Dreaming Dark
2: The Lords of Dust
3: The Trust

Now the Trust would probably trump the first two in Zilargo itself, but while they're masters of espionage, in Greater Khorvaire they're a little weaker since they don't dedicate as much top-to-bottom effort since they don't enforce the law there.

The Dreaming Dark probably focus on the big players, such as kings and queens, generals and dragonmarked barons, while the Lords of Dust have to work a little lower than that to avoid being spotted by the Silver Flame. (And of course, most intelligence agencies are aware of the Lords of Dust since they've been active for so long.)
Hellcow
11-11-07, 01:57 PM I do think the home field advantage is key. No one beats the Trust in Zilargo. The Citadel will be stronger in Breland than in Aundair. Phiarlan and Thuranni may be roughly equal - though I agree with Identitystolen that Phiarlan places greater emphasis on information gathering while Thuranni are better when it comes to assassination - but even they have territories where they are stronger (Karrnath, Lhazaar, Droaam, and Q'barra for Thuranni, while Phiarlan holds sway in Aundair, Breland, and Thrane).

Setting aside groups like the Lords of Dust, Chamber, and Dreaming Dark and focusing on the mortal agencies, I personally put the Trust and the Shadow Houses at the top of the list. While the Trust is peerless in Zilargo, in my opinion it's also extremely effective beyond Zilargo. Ruthless subterfuge is a part of Zil culture, and information is the weapon they use so they won't have to fight wars; per page 212 of the ECS, intelligence services were one of the things the gnomes provided to Breland as part of their alliance in the war, suggesting that the forces of the Trust are superior to the Citadel in at least some circumstances. So I put the Trust as the top of the national agencies, with the Shadow houses on roughly equal footing.

Below that, I personally go with the King's Citadel (Dark Lanterns). In my opinion, the Citadel was the original intelligence service of Galifar itself; Karrnath had Rekkenmark, Aundair the Arcane Congress, Thrane had Flamekeep, and Breland was the seat of the King's Citadel - which back in the day would have served the King of Galifar, not the King of Breland. Breland obviously had to purge the ranks during the Last War, but nonetheless inherited a very effective agency used to operating across the continent - while groups like the Royal Eyes needed to be built up to greater strength. Of course, just as many generals at the start of the war trained at Rekkenmark, you can assume that many secret agents at the start of the war were one-time Dark Lanterns.

So I'd personally put the Trust/Shadow Houses at the top, with Phiarlan holding a slight edge over Thuranni; the King's Dark Lanterns below that; Aundair next, aided by its excellent scrying and divination capabilities; and other nations below. The Shaarat'khesh are extremely skilled operatives, but simply lack the resources and scope of the others; one to one, a shaarat'khesh assassin may be a match for Thuranni, but they just don't have the network of safehouses and the storehouse of knowledge Thuranni can draw on.

But I agree that the best answer is the one that fits the story you want to tell.
Cavienn
11-11-07, 03:33 PM I've made pretty much the same judgments for my campaign as Hellcow made (which pleases me somewhat ;)). The most important thing, of course, is the story you want to tell. (Of course, the story I'm telling involves almost all of them, but there you go.)

Also:

*Karrnath Sercret Police- Group I made up as nothing named popped up in the books. Loyal the the Crown of Karrnath, the KSP is used to find and neutralize any threat to the crown and country. Given how divided Karrnath is currently, the KSP is really tied down to domestic problems to engage in any foreign espionage.

According to Five Nations (I believe) Karrnath has the Royal Swords, which basically fits the exact description you gave for your KSP.
Identitystolen
11-11-07, 05:49 PM According to Five Nations (I believe) Karrnath has the Royal Swords, which basically fits the exact description you gave for your KSP.

Ooops, musta missed that one. :embarrass

Eh, it was a one shot deal anyhow and it did it's job very well. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AvonRekaes 11-09-07, 06:30 AM	The Trust, The Serpentine Table, the Shadow Network, the Royal Eyes of Aundaire, the King's Dark Lanterns... All of these organizations are basically made up of spies, assassins, and information gatherers. Sometimes I find it difficult, as a DM, to decide on the spot whether any of them know about a certain clandestine operation that, say, the PCs are trying to stop. Whether they have concurrent plans in motion to aid the PCs, aid the operation, or are completely neutral to the outcome (or even if they know about it in the first place), would be pretty handy to know. Sometimes these clandestine operations might involve other organizations of the same kind. In short, I was looking for opinions on which is the best intelligence agency, who's better than who, who's as good as who, who needs work in some areas, and the like. For example, the King's Dark Lanterns are described as the best national intelligence agency. Except the Royal Eyes of Aundaire make better use of scrying magic and the Order of the Emerald Claw (when it was legal) was able to assassinate Cyre's ruler twice. And they don't compare it to either Dragonmarked house of the Mark of Shadow. I'm not even sure of all the intelligence agencies out there. I'm pretty sure there's something in Thrane, but I don't know what it's called. Also, the Lords of Dust could be considered an intelligence agency of sorts, as they're spread out and infiltrated in all levels of society. So basically, I'm looking for a list of who's most likely to know about a given clandestine event, in descending order.
Identitystolen 11-09-07, 08:59 AM	My opinion and really is arbitrary: Dreaming Dark- Heavily psionic based and has access to peoples dreams. Also immortal, so they can afford to stretch plans across centuries if need be. Lords of Dust- Very much like the Dreaming dark, but without the psionic resources and much more prone to infighting. The Trust- Gnomes have a great history of espionage, both domestic and foreign , and see it as a great game. The Chamber- Always trying to gather information about the prophecy, The Chamber has come across tons of information and put several plots into motion over the centuries. The extremely long life span and indirect informaion obtained via the Prophecy also gives the dragons an edge. House Philarlan- Mark of the Shadow and a long history of gathering and providing information for a price makes Philarlan a major player in any spy game. House Thuranni- The splinter house from Philaran is more for wet work than intelligence gathering in my belief, but still very good at gathering info and selling it. The Aurum- Knowledge is power, and power is something the Aurum definitely wans more of. Using high placed connections, and tons of gold and platinum, the Aurum specializes in blackmail and to a lesser extent infiltration. Also other resources (such as artifacts and ancient tomes) provided by its members make the Aurum a force in the shadows. The Citadel (Breland)- Probably the most active and largest espionage agency in the five nations. Active threats are always common inside and outside of Breland, thus the Citadel is always busy. Royal Eyes of Aundair- Currently very active in foreign espionage and has a lot of arcane based resources on hand. Also, I don't believe the Eyes are exactly the largest agency either. Order of the Emerald Claw- More of a smash and grab type agency, but can be subtle when need be. While maybe not as great as a information gathering sources as Breland and Aundair, it has much larger pool of resources to draw from. Karrnath Sercret Police- Group I made up as nothing named popped up in the books. Loyal the the Crown of Karrnath, the KSP is used to find and neutralize any threat to the crown and country. Given how divided Karrnath is currently, the KSP is really tied down to domestic problems to engage in any foreign espionage. House Medani- Not truly a spying agency, Medani does investigates across every spectrum of society in Khorvaire and comes across lots of information. Knocked down in the ranks as they don't spread this information but probably will retain it for leverage and for future investigative use. I'm sure I've seen a Thranish agency somewhere, but I forget where.... But its never come up in my campaigns so I don't care! :P Also there are a ton of localized espionage groups through out the world. The Cabinet of Faces would be a good example in Sharn. Also The Twelve and the Arcane Congress can come into play if it involves a powerful artifact or arcane information.
Alex_ 11-09-07, 11:40 AM	In short, I was looking for opinions on which is the best intelligence agency, who's better than who, who's as good as who, who needs work in some areas, and the like... So basically, I'm looking for a list of who's most likely to know about a given clandestine event, in descending order. I go with, "who's going to be in the campaign, and what do I want them to do." Cuts down on a lot of planning and concerns for stuff I'm not going to use. Why do I care what the Dreaming Dark knows about the PCs being in Xen'drik if I have no intention of introducing them into the game? Same for the Royal Eyes of Aundair, or even the Chamber. They could know nothing, or they could know everything. It doesn't matter. However, I may want the Trust to be in the game, so they'll know ABC, because this will give them enough justification to do XYZ, which is what I want them to do in this campaign.
AvonRekaes 11-09-07, 11:57 AM	I like to keep my bases covered for when the PCs jump the rails. So I usually plan for as many eventualities as possible. Also, I like to keep internal consistency in my gameworld, so I like to get a handle on which groups I could most likely introduce, depending on which groups are more likely to know something.
Yakman 11-09-07, 01:23 PM	I like to keep my bases covered for when the PCs jump the rails. So I usually plan for as many eventualities as possible. Also, I like to keep internal consistency in my gameworld, so I like to get a handle on which groups I could most likely introduce, depending on which groups are more likely to know something. to keep the discussion completely academic, i would make the following remarks: * the Trust - well-nigh all-powerful within Zilargo. They know what's going on for pretty much everything going on within the settled regions with a good number of agents scattered throughout the rest of Khorvaire, but their capacities beyond Zilargo and Breland are fairly limited. They have a sizeable operation in Stormreach as well. * the Lords of Dust - they know pretty much everything that they need to know. their problem is the distribution of the information, because they don't share data between differing power structures. but their theoretical capacities are pretty incredible. * the Dreaming Dark - they know most everything occurring in Sarlona save Adar. in khorvaire, their capacity fluctuates wildly as different quori switch in and out of empty vessels. they have a small, but powerful cell in Stormreach, but many of their members have been lost exploring the wilds of Xen'drik, although their efforts have not been diminished by failure. * Phiarlan/Thuranni - peerless. can't be beat in the acquisition of information. this is partially why the Riedrans have been exceptionally anxious with elves and foreigners coming to their empire - they aren't quite clear about what the house of shadows can do, but they have learned of their reputation in khorvaire and are a bit concerned.
RedRider 11-09-07, 01:23 PM	Well, I'd say the top three in terms of sheer competence, active in Khorvaire would be: 1: The Dreaming Dark 2: The Lords of Dust 3: The Trust Now the Trust would probably trump the first two in Zilargo itself, but while they're masters of espionage, in Greater Khorvaire they're a little weaker since they don't dedicate as much top-to-bottom effort since they don't enforce the law there. The Dreaming Dark probably focus on the big players, such as kings and queens, generals and dragonmarked barons, while the Lords of Dust have to work a little lower than that to avoid being spotted by the Silver Flame. (And of course, most intelligence agencies are aware of the Lords of Dust since they've been active for so long.)
Hellcow 11-11-07, 01:57 PM	I do think the home field advantage is key. No one beats the Trust in Zilargo. The Citadel will be stronger in Breland than in Aundair. Phiarlan and Thuranni may be roughly equal - though I agree with Identitystolen that Phiarlan places greater emphasis on information gathering while Thuranni are better when it comes to assassination - but even they have territories where they are stronger (Karrnath, Lhazaar, Droaam, and Q'barra for Thuranni, while Phiarlan holds sway in Aundair, Breland, and Thrane). Setting aside groups like the Lords of Dust, Chamber, and Dreaming Dark and focusing on the mortal agencies, I personally put the Trust and the Shadow Houses at the top of the list. While the Trust is peerless in Zilargo, in my opinion it's also extremely effective beyond Zilargo. Ruthless subterfuge is a part of Zil culture, and information is the weapon they use so they won't have to fight wars; per page 212 of the ECS, intelligence services were one of the things the gnomes provided to Breland as part of their alliance in the war, suggesting that the forces of the Trust are superior to the Citadel in at least some circumstances. So I put the Trust as the top of the national agencies, with the Shadow houses on roughly equal footing. Below that, I personally go with the King's Citadel (Dark Lanterns). In my opinion, the Citadel was the original intelligence service of Galifar itself; Karrnath had Rekkenmark, Aundair the Arcane Congress, Thrane had Flamekeep, and Breland was the seat of the King's Citadel - which back in the day would have served the King of Galifar, not the King of Breland. Breland obviously had to purge the ranks during the Last War, but nonetheless inherited a very effective agency used to operating across the continent - while groups like the Royal Eyes needed to be built up to greater strength. Of course, just as many generals at the start of the war trained at Rekkenmark, you can assume that many secret agents at the start of the war were one-time Dark Lanterns. So I'd personally put the Trust/Shadow Houses at the top, with Phiarlan holding a slight edge over Thuranni; the King's Dark Lanterns below that; Aundair next, aided by its excellent scrying and divination capabilities; and other nations below. The Shaarat'khesh are extremely skilled operatives, but simply lack the resources and scope of the others; one to one, a shaarat'khesh assassin may be a match for Thuranni, but they just don't have the network of safehouses and the storehouse of knowledge Thuranni can draw on. But I agree that the best answer is the one that fits the story you want to tell.
Cavienn 11-11-07, 03:33 PM	I've made pretty much the same judgments for my campaign as Hellcow made (which pleases me somewhat ;)). The most important thing, of course, is the story you want to tell. (Of course, the story I'm telling involves almost all of them, but there you go.) Also: *Karrnath Sercret Police- Group I made up as nothing named popped up in the books. Loyal the the Crown of Karrnath, the KSP is used to find and neutralize any threat to the crown and country. Given how divided Karrnath is currently, the KSP is really tied down to domestic problems to engage in any foreign espionage. According to Five Nations (I believe) Karrnath has the Royal Swords, which basically fits the exact description you gave for your KSP.
Identitystolen 11-11-07, 05:49 PM	According to Five Nations (I believe) Karrnath has the Royal Swords, which basically fits the exact description you gave for your KSP. Ooops, musta missed that one. :embarrass Eh, it was a one shot deal anyhow and it did it's job very well. :)