Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Morbid Angel 09-01-06, 05:53 PM	I really like the world of Eberron. The lands and cultures, the atmosphere, the whole high action and dark adventure. Pretty much everything about it I find compelling, full of flavor, and most importantly; Fun! I do not however like its cosmology. I vastly prefer the Great Wheel with the Hells, Sigil, and all that. Balors belong in the Abyss not the Elemental Plane of Fire (ie: Fernia). The problem is if I just go ahead and swap them it presents a problem. Manifest Zones, and the Gods inconveniently living on the Outer Planes (making them accessible which goes against part of what makes Eberron unique as a setting.) I've already changed some things about the setting to fit the campaign I want to run. I've totally revamped Sarlona and created a confederacy of city states (sort of like the Free Cities from a Song of Ice and Fire) in place of the Reidran Empire. I really don't care much for Psionics. The Boromar Clan is also out. Halfling mafia? No thanks -.- Changes like these however are fairly superficial and don't have any real effect on the world's structural integrity so to speak. I have even toned down some of the magic saturation that permeates the setting. I am at a loss here though. I could just swap them and not worry about the far reaching impact such a change would cause. I could get off my lazy bottom and finish working on my homebrew setting. I could just run it as written even though it bugs the everloving crap out of me. Or I could ask the creative community for advice on what to do. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! :) :b: :b: :b:
Nurgan_the_drunked 09-01-06, 06:17 PM	From a personal point of view, I dislike changing the cosmology to standard, as it enforces the feel and style of a world of Good vs Evil and Law vs Chaos, rather than a whole array of seperate sides with morals a secondary concern, if at all. I feel that the "passive" nature of alingment in Eberron is a major factor in the setting, and that the shift in the planes means anyone who knows about planes becomes aware of the conflict, rather than having some political ideal of their own. Game- wise, it doesn't affect that much, except that it implies that there is a massive war of morality going on, of which the world is not a major part: inevitably a bad thing. It also needs some blagging why there isn's a battle over the planes, and about why it doesn't spill into the world. Is there some major reason you don't like the planes other than your regular concepts? If Fernia is a place of burning flame, why shouldn't burning demons come from there? As a side note, why do you object to Riedran psionics? The game as I see seems set up so that the whole Dreaming Dark/ Kalashtar/ Riedra plot line can remain untouched and irrelvant if the DM so wills it. Unless it truly inspires you (a good reason, of course) why change its nature, even away from the feel of what's written?
Balseraph 09-01-06, 06:20 PM	You could ask your players what they'd prefer too. If the cosmology as written is what they'd prefer, then it could very well be a waste of effort to convert to something different. The reason I bring up the point is that I prefer the Eberron cosmology to the great wheel. From the sounds of your changes, you may as well not play Eberron! Particularly with reference to toning down the magic permeating everything.
Morbid Angel 09-01-06, 06:58 PM	From a personal point of view, I dislike changing the cosmology to standard, as it enforces the feel and style of a world of Good vs Evil and Law vs Chaos, rather than a whole array of seperate sides with morals a secondary concern, if at all. I feel that the "passive" nature of alingment in Eberron is a major factor in the setting, and that the shift in the planes means anyone who knows about planes becomes aware of the conflict, rather than having some political ideal of their own. Well, in my mind the main problem is the gods. I have always used alignment more as a guide than something rigid that a given npc must adhere to. It also serves to show contrast between a human who has a much different outlook on life than an outsider who is utterly defined by its alignment. Game- wise, it doesn't affect that much, except that it implies that there is a massive war of morality going on, of which the world is not a major part: inevitably a bad thing. It also needs some blagging why there isn's a battle over the planes, and about why it doesn't spill into the world. Is there some major reason you don't like the planes other than your regular concepts? If Fernia is a place of burning flame, why shouldn't burning demons come from there? I just find them really bland. Kind of like putting the city of Union (ELH) next to Sigil. The Eberron planes just seem to be watered down versions of the standard cosmology. Shavarath, the Battleground where celestials, demons, and devils fight each other for no particular reason. Fernia is the diet coke of Hell. They just don't grab me at all, nor do they seem to be good places for the occasional planar jaunt. I guess I just really like Planescape. /sigh As a side note, why do you object to Riedran psionics? The game as I see seems set up so that the whole Dreaming Dark/ Kalashtar/ Riedra plot line can remain untouched and irrelvant if the DM so wills it. Unless it truly inspires you (a good reason, of course) why change its nature, even away from the feel of what's written? It's not that I consider psionics broken or anything. I don't care for having multiple magic systems and my players hate psionics. Sarlona just seems to be a good place to add in my own personal touches without messing with the main map too much. Oh...and I have no love for the "wee folk" just in case anyone asks. :P I was just wondering if anyone else has tryed to use Eberron with the Planescape setting and how it has worked out for them. :b: :b: :b:
Zuj 09-01-06, 07:09 PM	Well, in my mind the main problem is the gods. I have always used alignment more as a guide than something rigid that a given npc must adhere to. It also serves to show contrast between a human who has a much different outlook on life than an outsider who is utterly defined by its alignment. I just find them really bland. Kind of like putting the city of Union (ELH) next to Sigil. The Eberron planes just seem to be watered down versions of the standard cosmology. Shavarath, the Battleground where celestials, demons, and devils fight each other for no particular reason. Fernia is the diet coke of Hell. They just don't grab me at all, nor do they seem to be good places for the occasional planar jaunt. I guess I just really like Planescape. /sigh It's not that I consider psionics broken or anything. I don't care for having multiple magic systems and my players hate psionics. Sarlona just seems to be a good place to add in my own personal touches without messing with the main map too much. Oh...and I have no love for the "wee folk" just in case anyone asks. :P I was just wondering if anyone else has tryed to use Eberron with the Planescape setting and how it has worked out for them. :b: :b: :b: Let me preface this by saying that I was a long time DM for planescape and I totally understand how you would want to blend the two settings together. However... Alignments in Planescape and alignments in Eberron could not be more opposite. In the Great Wheel, belief is POWER, and you can change your environment by believing in one philosophy or another. The Great Wheel cosmology turns Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos in to tangible forces, something that is very much against the "flavor" of Eberron. I personally think that the change in Cosmology is refreshing. You get an entirely new universe to play with, and you are free to add as much as you want to each plane as you see fit. Have a problem with Fernia? Why not add more aspects that make it like the Abyss or Baator? You can use a lot of noteworthy planar sites from old sourcebooks and easily transpose them into the planes in Eberron. Another problem with incorporating the Great Wheel is it adds in Gods as real, intelligent beings. This undermines the entire religious situation in Eberron. If you aren't yet familiar with how religion works there, I suggest you read up on it more (trust me, you'll understand). Why do you want to change it so much, without giving it a chance? You may enjoy the freedom ;)
Charles Phipps 09-01-06, 07:38 PM	I'd like to state one thing before I give my opinion. Here it is: I really hate when a person comes onto a board and asks a question about changing a setting and the response is akin to "YOU SHOULDN'T DO THAT!" The whole point of D&D is that DMs have the option of changing the stories to suit themseves and that doesn't mean it's any "less" enjoyable for it. He doesn't like Eberron's planes, good for him. Maybe some other aspect of the setting appeals to him. Is it wrong to accent one aspect over another? HELL NO. Now, here's an answer that tries to HELP the original poster. I recommend these aspects for you to preserve as much of the original Eberron feel as possible while simulatenously also incorporating the great wheel. No Gods: The gods are still beyond the Cosmic Planes. Immensely powerful beings live in the various planes of existence but they are somewhat beyond the state of normal human beings. The Gray Waste: Petitioners instead go to Hades where they exist in essentially a limbo like state of depression and lacking any form of human interaction. Manifest Zones: Just continue using the Manifest Zones in vague practice except make their qualities to be related to the Outer Planes themselves. I.e. Arcade replaces the Lord of Order, the Abyss replaces Xoriat, etc. The Elemental Plane of Air for Sharn's manifest zone. Sigil: Just state that it links to Eberron and eberron is one of many Prime Material worlds. Even if you keep the gods, simply make it so that they're distant and removed from the planes of existence. I.e. no mortal being is going to travel to Mount Celestia to go speak with Dol Arrah after all. Even if you did insert them, it's not like it's a major change anyway. I mean, the whole "We don't know if the gods exist or not" is sort of a minor matter anyway. Besides, who would believe a bunch of yokels whom claimed to have braved the dimensions like some weird version of Dante's Inferno. My recommendation is to incorporate the fact that the Planes (according to the Clueless on Eberron) is to rip off Draconic Cosmology a bit. Io was the original god and he was then split into Eberron, Siberys, and Khyber with each creating their own planes of existence as their bodies battled it out and were torn to pieces. Eberron is merely the result of having pieces of Siberys, Eberron's main body, and Khyber thrown together (and the Underdark/Khyber links up with the Abyss and Hells in many places) Demons, Devils, and the like are formed from Khyber's blood. Ditto in reverse for Angels and Khyber while Eberron's blood made mortal species.
ChimericalWolf 09-01-06, 08:16 PM	While I personally think the Eberron cosmology is much more flavorful and fitting to the Eberron world, it doesn't much matter what I think, ne? I'd say, if you want to change it, go for it. Conflict with the whole "Are the gods real" thing? Not really, just say that while Celestia is the most holy place for mortals, the gods are yet beyond. Manifest zones can still easily be connected to the Wheel planes, no problem. Hook Eberron into the Wheel as another Prime, but it's very distant from the other Prime worlds, which is why we haven't had anyone from FR or whatever kicking around. But the Primes are coming closer together, making Prime-jumping easier.
Morbid Angel 09-01-06, 08:38 PM	I'd like to state one thing before I give my opinion. Here it is: I really hate when a person comes onto a board and asks a question about changing a setting and the response is akin to "YOU SHOULDN'T DO THAT!" The whole point of D&D is that DMs have the option of changing the stories to suit themseves and that doesn't mean it's any "less" enjoyable for it. He doesn't like Eberron's planes, good for him. Maybe some other aspect of the setting appeals to him. Is it wrong to accent one aspect over another? HELL NO. Actually quite a bit of the setting appeals to me or else I wouldn't bother with it. Thank you for the words of encouragement. My intention was not to shove a square peg into a round hole just to see if it could be done, nor to create a lightning rail wreck out of a beloved setting. ;) Now, here's an answer that tries to HELP the original poster. I recommend these aspects for you to preserve as much of the original Eberron feel as possible while simulatenously also incorporating the great wheel. No Gods: The gods are still beyond the Cosmic Planes. Immensely powerful beings live in the various planes of existence but they are somewhat beyond the state of normal human beings. This was more or less what I had in mind to deal with the God dilemma. I'll just keep them distant and aloof to the affairs of mortals. I prefer more of the faith based religion anyway. People can't see or talk to the gods and healing comes from divine channeling, quintessance, the Lifestream, or whatever. The Gray Waste: Petitioners instead go to Hades where they exist in essentially a limbo like state of depression and lacking any form of human interaction. I already use a more "World of Darkness" approach ::dodges hurled objects:: to the land of the dead. Wraith the Oblivion is kind of a cross between the plane of shadow and negative energy plane. It actually works quite well as a sourcebook for Hades flavor. Manifest Zones: Just continue using the Manifest Zones in vague practice except make their qualities to be related to the Outer Planes themselves. I.e. Arcade replaces the Lord of Order, the Abyss replaces Xoriat, etc. The Elemental Plane of Air for Sharn's manifest zone. This is exactly what I will do. It's not much of a stretch really. I already have "haunts" where the veil seperating Hades and the living world has grown thin. Such as the necropolis in Sharn. Sigil: Just state that it links to Eberron and eberron is one of many Prime Material worlds. Done and done. I have to have Sigil in there somewhere as I like to have a campaign that spans multiple worlds. Besides I think some dimension hopping fits perfectly with Eberron's theme of exploration. ;) Even if you keep the gods, simply make it so that they're distant and removed from the planes of existence. I.e. no mortal being is going to travel to Mount Celestia to go speak with Dol Arrah after all. Even if you did insert them, it's not like it's a major change anyway. I mean, the whole "We don't know if the gods exist or not" is sort of a minor matter anyway. Besides, who would believe a bunch of yokels whom claimed to have braved the dimensions like some weird version of Dante's Inferno. My recommendation is to incorporate the fact that the Planes (according to the Clueless on Eberron) is to rip off Draconic Cosmology a bit. Io was the original god and he was then split into Eberron, Siberys, and Khyber with each creating their own planes of existence as their bodies battled it out and were torn to pieces. Eberron is merely the result of having pieces of Siberys, Eberron's main body, and Khyber thrown together (and the Underdark/Khyber links up with the Abyss and Hells in many places) Demons, Devils, and the like are formed from Khyber's blood. Ditto in reverse for Angels and Khyber while Eberron's blood made mortal species. This actually helps me out quite a bit. Thank you VERY much for taking the time to type it. :)
Morbid Angel 09-01-06, 08:50 PM	Alignments in Planescape and alignments in Eberron could not be more opposite. In the Great Wheel, belief is POWER, and you can change your environment by believing in one philosophy or another. The Great Wheel cosmology turns Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos in to tangible forces, something that is very much against the "flavor" of Eberron. I'm well aware of the fact. I don't think it will present much of a problem as I don't plan on having the Blood War take center stage of my campaign else I would just run Planescape. I personally think that the change in Cosmology is refreshing. You get an entirely new universe to play with, and you are free to add as much as you want to each plane as you see fit. Have a problem with Fernia? Why not add more aspects that make it like the Abyss or Baator? You can use a lot of noteworthy planar sites from old sourcebooks and easily transpose them into the planes in Eberron. Quite the opposite for me. I had thought of doing this but it just didn't appeal to my sense of aesthetics. I guess I'm just picky like that. :P :b: :b: :b:
Lafarallin 09-01-06, 08:59 PM	Just my opinion here. I think the reason they did not add Eberron as another prime material world connected to the rest is the level disparities. There are quite a few characters from other prime worlds that could basically come to Eberron and rule by force. Eberron NPC's do not gain levels (usually, according to the rules), they are static. So as the characters progress in levels they notice they are starting to become more powerful. Most of the powerful NPC's are levels 12 to 18 or so. Now connect Eberron to the other prime worlds or even the planescape setting alone. There are plenty of 20+ level characters some even 30+. One of those beings could simply cross over and take over. Now I may be wrong, but this is why I figured they made it seperate from the previous style of connecting everything. There is no reason for an evil adventuring group from Dark Sun, Planescape, Forgotten Realms, Dragon Lance, etc..etc.. from taking advantage of a low powered world like Eberron.
Charles Phipps 09-01-06, 09:17 PM	Now I may be wrong, but this is why I figured they made it seperate from the previous style of connecting everything. There is no reason for an evil adventuring group from Dark Sun, Planescape, Forgotten Realms, Dragon Lance, etc..etc.. from taking advantage of a low powered world like Eberron. Except, you really run into "Lex Luthor" syndrome here where it's such a ridiculous idea except via metagaming that you need to take a step back to look at it. I call it "Lex Luthor" syndrome because it's from a famous issue of Superman that I sadly dont remember the issue of. It went something like... Lex Luthor: Okay, Superman, tell me about the culture on Centauris VI (or whatever it was called) Superman: They're doing quite well blah blah blah Lex Luthor: I bet they haven't developed steam technology yet. Superman: Blah blah, it doesn't make them bad. Lex Luthor: Now, Superman, you know I'm smart enough to take over a planet right. Superman: Yes, I'll concede that. Lex Luthor: Now if I wanted to, I could. However, I'd end up taking over a crappy planet while here on Earth weve got billions of hands on the cusp of scientific invention that could...if properly motivated...be used to take over thousands of worlds with no particular drop in population. Superman: Then why don't you take over a world like this? Lex Luthor: That's what I've been trying to do! I.e. the idea that some 30th level guy is going to cross over to Eberron to try and TAKE OVER THE PLANET is pretty out there. Emotional ties aside, do you see Manshoon trying to take over Dragonlance? No. Besides, if Balors and Asmodeus could causally invade the Primes anyway...WOULDN'T they?
Lafarallin 09-01-06, 09:27 PM	I.e. the idea that some 30th level guy is going to cross over to Eberron to try and TAKE OVER THE PLANET is pretty out there. Emotional ties aside, do you see Manshoon trying to take over Dragonlance? No. Besides, if Balors and Asmodeus could causally invade the Primes anyway...WOULDN'T they? I disagree with you 100%. There is no reason why powerful organizations would not send troops over to harvest dragonshards and/or other natural reasources. It is a source of great wealth. You seem to forget that the driving factor of world exploration in our world was money. Silver funded the projects and they explored for profit. Why on earth (no pun intended) would you not send expeditions to new worlds to rape their natural resources and make tons of money? The best part is it "ISN'T" your planet so how great is that. You can decimate the planet to a pile of ash and no harm done to yourself. The Spaniards were quite happy when they reached the new world and realized the natives were primitives and easily defeated with firearms. The fact is high powered characters from other worlds would view Eberron the same way.
Charles Phipps 09-01-06, 09:39 PM	I disagree with you 100%. There is no reason why powerful organizations would not send troops over to harvest dragonshards and/or other natural reasources. It is a source of great wealth So let me understand this. On places that they haven't even explored the other CONTINENTS of the world (in most planets for instance Faerun is ONLY Europe's equivalent and ditto for Ansalom). In fact, Dark Sun, the cited location...they haven't even explored a particularly LARGE PORTION OF THE continent. (This is equivalent to JUST the middle east in size) They will make an active effort to head to another planet? Furthermore, it'll be so tremendously common for people to know about other worlds and visit them that they will do this quite regularly and with sufficient resources? As for Demons and other creatures, they don't enter the world because Demons don't do that. It's part of their storyline. Unless you're running a Buffy game where the object is thwarting their entry. Even in Planescape, crossing planes is not easy and was never meant to be.
Lafarallin 09-01-06, 09:44 PM	So let me understand this. On places that they haven't even explored the other CONTINENTS of the world (in most planets for instance Faerun is ONLY Europe's equivalent and ditto for Ansalom). In fact, Dark Sun, the cited location...they haven't even explored a particularly LARGE PORTION OF THE continent. Lets be realistic man. This is a gimmick for developers to keep adding new expansions and make more money. Of course they don't give you the whole world and say here you got everything, stop buying our books. Duh.... Furthermore, it'll be so tremendously common for people to know about other worlds and visit them that they will do this quite regularly and with sufficient resources? Um...organizations like the Red Wizards of Thay, the Zhentarium, etc....have the resources. The profit they could make would be a hundredfold. Yeah I think they would cough up a few thousand for the proper gate spell components. As for Demons and other creatures, they don't enter the world because Demons don't do that. It's part of their storyline. Unless you're running a Buffy game where the object is thwarting their entry. Even in Planescape, crossing planes is not easy and was never meant to be. I never said anything about demons. I don't know why you are going off on this tangent. We were talking about Planescape...which has the city of Sigil. Sigil is the city of what...yes doors. You can link every 2nd Edition world from that city. If you have the right key, you can easily access other worlds from that city. It is not a difficult thing to do. That was my point. Going from one plane to another is not difficult for an epic level character. It is extremely easy. You think it is really difficult? What rules are you going by? :confused:
Charles Phipps 09-01-06, 09:53 PM	You weren't terribly clear which we were referring to. But yes, the Red Wizards of Thay are a group of individuals that probably have well over a hundred or more people whom can open Gates or even Plane Shift to another reality in which yes, they could end up on Eberron (or some other world). However, if a Red Wizard of Thay DOES show up on Eberron, even at 20th level. He wouldn't necessarily take over the planet anyway. Dragons, Lords of Dust, Haphazardly assembled adventurers, etc. I also think most of those organizations would be more interested in conquering underdeveloped regions on their own planet first.
Lafarallin 09-01-06, 10:01 PM	However, if a Red Wizard of Thay DOES show up on Eberron, even at 20th level. He wouldn't necessarily take over the planet anyway. Dragons, Lords of Dust, Haphazardly assembled adventurers, etc. I also think most of those organizations would be more interested in conquering underdeveloped regions on their own planet first. You are correct, one 20th level Red Wizard of Thay wouldn't necessarily take over the planet. But twenty of them could. The point is a 20th level character "COULD" easily change the history of Eberron. That is a fact, because a group of 10th level characters in Eberron can do that. That is the point of Eberron..to be the heroes. Now throw a 30th level character in Eberron. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that character could conquer the world. Now granted they won't just do it alone but they'd easily find people to work for them. The whole point of my post is to say why I "BELIEVE" they kept Eberron seperate from the rest of the worlds. The Forgotten Realms is full of heroes far more powerful then most players ever will be in Eberron. I'm pretty sure Eberron was made to make the players feel like they aren't in the shadow of "UBER" characters like Elminister, the Simbul, Szass Tam, etc..etc..etc.. Honestly there is no reason why organizations in the Forgotten Realms aren't exploring and pillaging other planets. The only reason is Copyright laws and respect to not destroy another campaign world. In reality, if someone in the forgotten realms found a world low in magic, with primitive natives, there is absolutely no reason they wouldn't exploit it. Open a world history book and you'll see that is how our world economy began and evolved.
Lafarallin 09-01-06, 10:05 PM	I also think most of those organizations would be more interested in conquering underdeveloped regions on their own planet first. ...and no, no, no. You're not seeing my point. Most of those organizations have serious competition on their world. It is a system of checks and balances. Both sides are equally as powerful. They fight back and forth. They do plot and battle but they are more equally matched in their world. The point is if they found a world full of lower level, less powerful (on an average) characters, they would attack. Why wouldn't you? Imagine stealing all the technology from Eberron and bringing it back to the Forgotten Realms. You could strengthen your kingdom with slaves, warforge (and creation forge to make them!), airships...my god you could forge an empire that would be hard to oppose.
Charles Phipps 09-01-06, 10:12 PM	...and no, no, no. You're not seeing my point. Most of those organizations have serious competition on their world. It is a system of checks and balances. Both sides are equally as powerful. They fight back and forth. They do plot and battle but they are more equally matched in their world. The point is if they found a world full of lower level, less powerful (on an average) characters, they would attack. Why wouldn't you? Imagine stealing all the technology from Eberron and bringing it back to the Forgotten Realms. You could strengthen your kingdom with slaves, warforge (and creation forge to make them!), airships...my god you could forge an empire that would be hard to oppose. I hate to be the one whom says this and you're welcome to your version but my take on Forgotten Realms is clearly not as highly powered as yours is. Frankly, 20 20th level wizards leaving the Realms is something I have difficulty imagining and that would take a massive portion of the accumulated magical power in the planet away. Next, no, I don't think the planet would be anything more than a curiosity for Red Wizards of Thay to be honest since all of their technology requires artificiers whom aren't that different from normal Red Wizard magical manufacturers. Even Eldritch machines are no more impressive than the relics of Karsus. The idea that someone would also have the advanced knowledge to travel worlds and single out a single one is also something I think would be massively baroque. My take on the Red Wizards of Thay is also that they could go to Maztica or Al-Quadim and take over just as easily as they could in Eberron since they'd have less compettion on those countries than they would in Eberron. Hell, Chesstnea is even LESS magical than Eberron and by far. Or do you think it's guarded by a bunch of 20th levels. The reason the Red Wizard's don't is because they need most of their power to keep Thay in line and geographical boundaires are still formidable even for Red Wizards. Ditto any other of those magical organizations or similiar from other worlds.
Lafarallin 09-01-06, 10:30 PM	I hate to be the one whom says this and you're welcome to your version but my take on Forgotten Realms is clearly not as highly powered as yours is. Frankly, 20 20th level wizards leaving the Realms is something I have difficulty imagining and that would take a massive portion of the accumulated magical power in the planet away. Next, no, I don't think the planet would be anything more than a curiosity for Red Wizards of Thay to be honest since all of their technology requires artificiers whom aren't that different from normal Red Wizard magical manufacturers. Even Eldritch machines are no more impressive than the relics of Karsus. The idea that someone would also have the advanced knowledge to travel worlds and single out a single one is also something I think would be massively baroque. My take on the Red Wizards of Thay is also that they could go to Maztica or Al-Quadim and take over just as easily as they could in Eberron since they'd have less compettion on those countries than they would in Eberron. Hell, Chesstnea is even LESS magical than Eberron and by far. Or do you think it's guarded by a bunch of 20th levels. The reason the Red Wizard's don't is because they need most of their power to keep Thay in line and geographical boundaires are still formidable even for Red Wizards. Ditto any other of those magical organizations or similiar from other worlds. There are many epic level people in the Forgotten Realms setting. There are many epic level characters in the Planescape setting. There are many epic level characters in homebrew settings. The point is...Eberron is a lower level campaign world. I can't think of one 20th level character in the Eberron Campaign Setting. There is a reason for that. It is part of the flavor. That is why I believe they kept the world seperate from the others. To keep that flavor. If you want I can post as many 20th+ level wizards as I can find from the Forgotten Realms. Now keep in mind, this is just going to be a list of wizards. It is a powerful world with many powerful characters. The Knights of Myth Drannor alone could make such a huge impact on Eberron. The point is powerful organizations with the ability to travel to other worlds would. If it was a real society, they would. The reason the Red Wizards don't just take over primitive locals in their world are organizations like the Harpers. They try and are opposed. The point of going to another planet that has as the highest level character someone like Vol at 16th or so.....is you have very little opposition. Look at the adventure class character population versus normal populace in the books. This is not the case in the realms...there are millions of adventurers....that is how they made the world. Eberron is unique and adventurers are rare. I love that about it. You're entitled to your opinion but if you open up Eberron to the other planes, I honestly can't see why someone wouldn't eventually cross over and realize how rich Eberron is. There are materials here you can't find anywhere else. This makes it extremely valuable. I remember Raymond E. Feists Riftwar Saga. One world with very little metal finds a gate to Midkemia which is rich in metal. It invades and attempts to take over cities and gain a foothold. I really can't see why an organization wouldn't do this from another world. The rewards are just so huge. Just trading form planet to planet without war could give you a "HUGE" profit. More importantly, the main reason you would travel to another planet is for exploration. Why did someone climb a mountain. Why did someone go into space. Why did someone send a land rover to mars. Why did someone sail across the ocean. Why do adventurers travel to Xen'drik. Exploration in itself is a reward for some. When you find something new, different, ancient, or from another world...it is FUN! That is the name of the game.
Charles Phipps 09-01-06, 10:51 PM	Well I can think of Oalian. Then there's the Ascendent Dragon Counsellors... The Deathless are also Epic Level... Eberron is filled with more High Levels than FR actually. It's just they're all Bound Away Rajahs. Basically, my take is that there's trillions of planets out there and its such a mind numbing vista that the idea that anyone would try to conquer one or more with only a single countries worth of resources is a pretty silly one to me. The portals from Sigil are the exception to planewalking being the province of only the most powerful of wizards. And even they are things that can only be crossed in small groups.
Lafarallin 09-01-06, 10:58 PM	Well I can think of Oalian. Then there's the Ascendent Dragon Counsellors... The Deathless are also Epic Level... Eberron is filled with more High Levels than FR actually. It's just they're all Bound Away Rajahs. Basically, my take is that there's trillions of planets out there and its such a mind numbing vista that the idea that anyone would try to conquer one or more with only a single countries worth of resources is a pretty silly one to me. The portals from Sigil are the exception to planewalking being the province of only the most powerful of wizards. And even they are things that can only be crossed in small groups. Well we can argue back and forth all night. The point is I believe Eberron was left detached for some if not all the reasons I stated above. I can only point to world history to show what happens when people find an unexplored world that is rich in resources. Since I'm basing this on real life perhaps I'm comparing apples to oranges. Oh well... I can't speak for the developers but I think their intention was to keep other worlds, gods, and influences out of Eberron. I felt they had a specific view of Eberron and they designed things in ways to keep it this way. In the end as a DM, I agree you can do whatever you want. If you want to cross Eberron with Star Wars...more power to you. Who am I to judge.
Charles Phipps 09-01-06, 11:01 PM	You raise very good points but I'm just pointing out the fact that there's serious issues of geography going on here. People knew about China since Roman times yet you didn't see Europe mass migrating after all. Thanks for your points though
Lafarallin 09-01-06, 11:02 PM	You raise very good points but I'm just pointing out the fact that there's serious issues of geography going on here. People knew about China since Roman times yet you didn't see Europe mass migrating after all. Thanks for your points though I know my friend, but they didn't have teleport spells or airships either. ;)
mhacdebhandia 09-02-06, 02:55 AM	No Gods: The gods are still beyond the Cosmic Planes. Immensely powerful beings live in the various planes of existence but they are somewhat beyond the state of normal human beings. The Gray Waste: Petitioners instead go to Hades where they exist in essentially a limbo like state of depression and lacking any form of human interaction. Manifest Zones: Just continue using the Manifest Zones in vague practice except make their qualities to be related to the Outer Planes themselves. I.e. Arcade replaces the Lord of Order, the Abyss replaces Xoriat, etc. The Elemental Plane of Air for Sharn's manifest zone. Sigil: Just state that it links to Eberron and eberron is one of many Prime Material worlds. Good, useful ideas. I would add the following: The Blood War: has nothing to do with the Material Plane. Like Shavarath in the standard Eberron cosmology, the tanar'ri and baatezu are Hell-bent, pardon the pun, on fighting each other, with regard for little else. Decide that there's no advantage to be gained by having influence over the Material Plane except in extraordinary circumstances (i.e. for high-level adventures), so both sides keep their efforts concentrated on defeating each other.
Charles Phipps 09-02-06, 03:00 AM	You CAN insert the Archon and stuff into it anyway. Also, Gehenna can substitute for Shevalresh. Oh and I recommend the Quori come from the Astral Plane. Just fill it with dreams.
Charles Phipps 09-02-06, 03:00 AM	You CAN insert the Archon and stuff into it anyway. Also, Gehenna can substitute for Shevalresh. Oh and I recommend the Quori come from the Astral Plane. Just fill it with dreams.
Morbid Angel 09-02-06, 11:53 AM	The Blood War: has nothing to do with the Material Plane. Like Shavarath in the standard Eberron cosmology, the tanar'ri and baatezu are Hell-bent, pardon the pun, on fighting each other, with regard for little else. Decide that there's no advantage to be gained by having influence over the Material Plane except in extraordinary circumstances (i.e. for high-level adventures), so both sides keep their efforts concentrated on defeating each other. I really don't see the Blood War presenting much of a problem. Maybe the Yugoloths have reason to keep its influence out of Eberron and thus steer the conflict to other arenas. It might even serve as an interesting plot tie to the "Crimson Ship" that is captained by an Ultraloth. (Explorer's Handbook) The Astral Plane seems the best match for Dal Quor. Thanks again Charles for the suggestion. The Quori actually resemble some of the other monsters there (Astral Dreadnought). Seems to be a perfect fit. Perhaps I can even stir up some conflict between the Githyanki and the Quori. :cool: :b: :b: :b:
The White Sorcerer 09-02-06, 12:38 PM	I see one major problem with putting the quori in the Astral Plane: What's stopping them from physically traveling to Eberron?
ArcTan 09-02-06, 01:08 PM	Two things: 1) Swapping out the existing Outer Planes for the Great Wheel's set of Inner and Outer Planes. It can be done, no big deal, sure. However, adding the Planescape conceit that there are multiple Prime Material Planes, and that one might be able to cross over from one Prime to another using the same means one uses to visit the Astral Plane or Plane of Fire -- hell no. There's a reason the idea of multiple Primes was presented as only a variant option in the current Manual of the Planes. Nothing smashes down the walls of a campaign faster than, "I want to Plane Shift to Greyhawk! Can we find a way to do that?" Yes, this means that I think Sigil itself is a problem for Eberron. If Sigil exists in a campaign then anyone who really wants to be at the center of power and control will want to live there rather than on any of the Primes. That's the central conceit behind the whole Planescape campaign setting, and making Sigil a part of the story will transform your campaign from an Eberron campaign to a Planescape campaign with Eberron in it. 2) Dal Quor is based on the variant plane, the Plane of Dreams, from MotP. It really doesn't fit any other idea. If you don't like using variant planes... tough beans, you kind of have to, because Dal Quor and Xoriat are central to the setting and history of Eberron, and they correspond to the Plane of Dreams and the Far Realm respectively while being very poor fits for anything else. We've been explicitly told by WotC why the Far Realm and Limbo are not the same and why beings from Limbo do not have the reality-shaking powers of beings from the Far Realm. And as for Dream vs. the Astral Plane, the whole idea of not being able to *consciously* control where one goes in Dreamland without very strict training, and the idea, at the same time, that *unconscious* control of the Dream is easy, even automatic, is a big part of what the Region of Dreams and by extension Dal Quor are about. Think a mix of Limbo and the Astral that's unlike either. And a very, very, *very* important part of what the quori are like and what they do is based on the fact that, like dream-creatures from the standard Dream, they can't directly cross over into the Material -- indeed, that the Region of Dreams and the Material Plane are in some kind of opposition where things from the Material are unreal in Dream and Dream-things are unreal in the Material. The existing Astral Plane does not admit of this at all -- the *point* of the Astral Plane is that it's by far the most commonly used Transitive Plane, with anyone who can cast Teleport having the power to zip through it at will. As people have said, the idea of the quori being untouchable and unable to touch you -- only capable of action through dreams and possession, impossible to fight or kill by direct force -- runs directly against how Astral creatures like the githyanki are portrayed (physically powerful and infinitely mobile). BTW, that's the problem with choosing Sarlona -- as opposed to a new continent, or some portion of Aeren or Xen'drik -- to put your homebrew civilization. Unless you forcibly chop out the whole quori/Inspired/Riedran subplot *completely* from the setting, which involves rewriting parts of history (you have to come up with a different cataclysm that destroyed the Giant civilization), the whole point of the quori is lost if there's no Riedra that they're manipulating. I would recommend you either find a way to use or rewrite the Riedra plot using the Region of Dreams, or else decide that quori in your campaign simply don't exist.
ArcTan 09-02-06, 01:11 PM	The Gray Waste: Petitioners instead go to Hades where they exist in essentially a limbo like state of depression and lacking any form of human interaction. ...Keeping in mind, of course, that this is one of the biggest differences between Eberron and the Great Wheel -- that if you're going to do this, *everyone* goes to the Neutral Evil Outer Plane when they die, regardless of their alignment or their patron deity. This is the primary difference between Dolurrh and Hades -- Dolurrh is universal, and thus neutral-aligned rather than evil-aligned. My recommendation is to incorporate the fact that the Planes (according to the Clueless on Eberron) is to rip off Draconic Cosmology a bit. Io was the original god and he was then split into Eberron, Siberys, and Khyber with each creating their own planes of existence as their bodies battled it out and were torn to pieces. Eberron is merely the result of having pieces of Siberys, Eberron's main body, and Khyber thrown together (and the Underdark/Khyber links up with the Abyss and Hells in many places) Demons, Devils, and the like are formed from Khyber's blood. Ditto in reverse for Angels and Khyber while Eberron's blood made mortal species. ...I don't see how this rewrite of the creation myth has anything to do with the Planes at all.
ArcTan 09-02-06, 01:12 PM	You CAN insert the Archon and stuff into it anyway. Also, Gehenna can substitute for Shevalresh. Oh and I recommend the Quori come from the Astral Plane. Just fill it with dreams. "Shavarath". (I'm sorry to be more of an ass than usual about this, but you've been doing things like calling "Shavarath" "Shevalresh" and so on for a remarkably long time.)
ArcTan 09-02-06, 01:19 PM	I already use a more "World of Darkness" approach ::dodges hurled objects:: to the land of the dead. Wraith the Oblivion is kind of a cross between the plane of shadow and negative energy plane. It actually works quite well as a sourcebook for Hades flavor. W:tO is much more similar to the Ethereal Plane, actually -- just an Etheral Plane far more filled with ghosts. It even uses similar terms -- the Shadowlands are the Border Ethereal, while the Tempest is the Deep Ethereal (through which one can find the Far Shores, i.e. Outer Planes or other Primes). But D&D ghosts and Wraiths have quite a bit in common, which is not surprising as Wraith seems to have taken the route of trying to flesh out how ghosts in the Ethereal work in D&D, as opposed to a more traditional (no Ethereal Plane) view of ghosts. Hades is somewhat different from W:tO, since Hades is an Outer Plane with no direct connection to the Material Plane, while in Wraith the Empire of Stygia is ultimately dependent on and directly linked to the world of the Quick in pretty fundamental ways -- harvesting Pathos from hauntings of living people, etc.
Morbid Angel 09-03-06, 01:13 PM	However, adding the Planescape conceit that there are multiple Prime Material Planes, and that one might be able to cross over from one Prime to another using the same means one uses to visit the Astral Plane or Plane of Fire -- hell no. There's a reason the idea of multiple Primes was presented as only a variant option in the current Manual of the Planes. Nothing smashes down the walls of a campaign faster than, "I want to Plane Shift to Greyhawk! Can we find a way to do that?" It's the opposite actually. Characters from our current campaign have been expressing interest in "moving" to Eberron. The next campaign that I run will take place in Eberron. That's why I'm here fishing for ideas. I was under the impression that this was a customizable world. I'm a very meta-dm (for lack of a better word). I like to tinker around with campaign settings. I use things from other worlds, settings, game systems, etc. Yes, this means that I think Sigil itself is a problem for Eberron. If Sigil exists in a campaign then anyone who really wants to be at the center of power and control will want to live there rather than on any of the Primes. That's the central conceit behind the whole Planescape campaign setting, and making Sigil a part of the story will transform your campaign from an Eberron campaign to a Planescape campaign with Eberron in it. I guess I run the risk of this in any game I dm since Sigil has linked to all of my worlds at some point in the past. I've never had the problem before of my players wanting to live there. Mostly it just serves as another exotic city for them to visit. Maybe my players just aren't ambitios enough. :P 2) Dal Quor is based on the variant plane, the Plane of Dreams, from MotP. It really doesn't fit any other idea. If you don't like using variant planes... tough beans, you kind of have to, because Dal Quor and Xoriat are central to the setting and history of Eberron, and they correspond to the Plane of Dreams and the Far Realm respectively while being very poor fits for anything else. You raise some good points. It really is a simple matter to just add these to the cosmology of the great wheel. I am aware of the difference between Limbo and the Far Realms. Xoriat is where all the Call of Cthulu entities will now reside. Problem solved. As for Dal Quor, I'll just add that to the wheel. That was a good catch on the Quori not being able to freely cross over to the Prime. BTW, that's the problem with choosing Sarlona -- as opposed to a new continent, or some portion of Aeren or Xen'drik -- to put your homebrew civilization. Unless you forcibly chop out the whole quori/Inspired/Riedran subplot *completely* from the setting, which involves rewriting parts of history (you have to come up with a different cataclysm that destroyed the Giant civilization), the whole point of the quori is lost if there's no Riedra that they're manipulating. I would recommend you either find a way to use or rewrite the Riedra plot using the Region of Dreams, or else decide that quori in your campaign simply don't exist. That's pretty much what I did. I re-worked the history to make Reidra a fallen civilization (like old Valyria). The Dreaming Dark now works toward machinating the rise to power of the remaining Inspired who lie in Torpor amidst the ruins of their cities.
Morbid Angel 09-03-06, 01:39 PM	W:tO is much more similar to the Ethereal Plane, actually -- just an Etheral Plane far more filled with ghosts. It even uses similar terms -- the Shadowlands are the Border Ethereal, while the Tempest is the Deep Ethereal (through which one can find the Far Shores, i.e. Outer Planes or other Primes). But D&D ghosts and Wraiths have quite a bit in common, which is not surprising as Wraith seems to have taken the route of trying to flesh out how ghosts in the Ethereal work in D&D, as opposed to a more traditional (no Ethereal Plane) view of ghosts. Hades is somewhat different from W:tO, since Hades is an Outer Plane with no direct connection to the Material Plane, while in Wraith the Empire of Stygia is ultimately dependent on and directly linked to the world of the Quick in pretty fundamental ways -- harvesting Pathos from hauntings of living people, etc. I didn't go into much detail explaining what I meant because I didn't expect many here to be familier with Wraith. Basically mortals that die go to the Gray Waste (Dolurrh) as newly formed enfant wraiths. Once they confront their inner darkness, they may transcend to the Upper Planes (far shores). Marraenoloths ferry the River Styx. The city of Stygia replaces Manifest (Ghost Walk). I agree that the Ethereal Plane makes perhaps a better analogue to the Wraith world. However it certaintly shares traits with all three. "The Shadowlands are well named indeed, for they cling to the outlines of the world of flesh, aping it as a shadow apes its caster." "The underworld is inconcievable in its vastness - greater than worlds, it is an anti-universe. Whatever is not of the universe is of Oblivion" Flavor-wise it certaintly begins to sound like the Plane of Shadow / Neg. Energy Plane. It really doesn't matter much since it is an entirely different game world after all. I plan on using Wraith as fluff for Dolurrh/Hades to explain why petitioners all go to the Underworld and what happens to them after that. It is nice to hear from someone else that plays/has played some of the WoD setting though. :cool: :b: :b: :b:
Charles Phipps 09-03-06, 06:27 PM	The Reidrans not being a major power isn't a huge change to be honest. All it really changes is the fact that the Dreaming Dark has the same problem as the Kalashatar in that they're an isolated cult waging a war against the Kalashatar on fairly even terms rather than a massive Empire doing it. Unless the players are Kalashatar, it won't even be a big change. I also think Sigil is actually unimportant in the grand scheme of things in the planes, something the Manual of the Planes was right in pointing out. It's a minor city that just happens to lead everywhere and is free from divine influence. It's nothing more than Casablanca. A minor port city thats utterly NOT where the big decisions that affect the universe are made but where anyone whom wants to hide from the Blood War or the Big Decisions can go to get away from it all. Teleport without Error can accomplish everything Sigil can and with half the grief.
mhacdebhandia 09-03-06, 08:38 PM	I really don't see the Blood War presenting much of a problem. Maybe the Yugoloths have reason to keep its influence out of Eberron and thus steer the conflict to other arenas. I was thinking more along the lines of the typical fashion in which the Blood War affects a game based on the Material Plane: i.e. one or both sides tries to use the PCs' homeland as a battleground/capture an important artefact on the PCs' world/enslave the population of the PCs' region to use for weapon production and as cannon fodder/et cetera. One of the things that gives Eberron its feel is that they have plenty of things to worry about on the Material Plane without also worrying about extraplanar incursions of that nature (as opposed to the differently-motivated incursions of the daelkyr).
ArcTan 09-04-06, 12:05 AM	The Reidrans not being a major power isn't a huge change to be honest. All it really changes is the fact that the Dreaming Dark has the same problem as the Kalashatar in that they're an isolated cult waging a war against the Kalashatar on fairly even terms rather than a massive Empire doing it. Unless the players are Kalashatar, it won't even be a big change. I also think Sigil is actually unimportant in the grand scheme of things in the planes, something the Manual of the Planes was right in pointing out. It's a minor city that just happens to lead everywhere and is free from divine influence. It's nothing more than Casablanca. A minor port city thats utterly NOT where the big decisions that affect the universe are made but where anyone whom wants to hide from the Blood War or the Big Decisions can go to get away from it all. Teleport without Error can accomplish everything Sigil can and with half the grief. Greater Teleport requires that you know where you're teleporting to, as, to some degree, does Plane Shift. Neither spell allows you to freely explore the planes the way Sigil's portals do. And MotP is expressing an opinion there -- an opinion that becomes a lot more believable after the Faction War. Before those metaplot events, the whole point of the Factions existing in Sigil at all and focusing all their efforts there was that they were convinced controlling Sigil was the point behind changing the philosophical nature of the multiverse as a whole.
ArcTan 09-04-06, 12:06 AM	It's the opposite actually. Characters from our current campaign have been expressing interest in "moving" to Eberron. The next campaign that I run will take place in Eberron. That's why I'm here fishing for ideas. I was under the impression that this was a customizable world. I'm a very meta-dm (for lack of a better word). I like to tinker around with campaign settings. I use things from other worlds, settings, game systems, etc. Cool. I would still suggest making Eberron "special" so that arriving there is a cooler event than simply stumbling upon another Prime -- doing something to indicate that Eberron, unlike Realmspace and Greyspace and such, is a Prime world that's been cut off from planar travel from the Great Wheel and other Primes for most of its history. (Which makes sense anyway given modern Eberron's lack of high-level casters.)
Charles Phipps 09-04-06, 03:43 AM	And MotP is expressing an opinion there -- an opinion that becomes a lot more believable after the Faction War. Before those metaplot events, the whole point of the Factions existing in Sigil at all and focusing all their efforts there was that they were convinced controlling Sigil was the point behind changing the philosophical nature of the multiverse as a whole. And it's perfectly within a DM's rights to decide they were wrong ;-) As interesting as the factions were, I always felt they were an organization of people that had some serious issues with hubris. Each of them were causally dismissive of the Primes even though their interpretations of the Multiverse (all of the Factions) were dubious at best.