Interesting Khorvaire Facts [Archive] - Wizards Community

Interesting Khorvaire Facts [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TwoSix26
09-25-04, 09:43 PM I was bored tonight, so I put together a little geographic spreadsheet from the information in the ECBS. A few interesting tidbits I gleaned about Khorvaire:

1) Khorvaire (not counting Aerenal) is almost exactly the size of South America, coming in at 6.70 million sq. mi. It is 1 million sq. mi. smaller than North America, and about half the size of Asia. Khorvaire is also roughly the size of Faerun on Toril.

2) Khorvaire (counting Aerenal) has a population of 18,271,000. Humans are the most predominant race on Khorvaire, account for 37% of the population. Elves are second, at 16%. 70% of all elves live on Aerenal. Rounding out the top 5 are dwarves, half-elves, and gnomes, at 7.9%, 7.5%, and 6.0%, respectively.

3) Races defined as other account for 3.4% of the overall population.

4) Strictly by the numbers, half-orcs have no business being a PC race. There are only 47,000 half-orcs in Khorvaire, per straight population listings. While the "other" category certainly holds some half-orcs, particularly in Droaam, the Eldeen Reaches, Breland, Karrnath, and the Mror Holds, it seems unlikely that the half-orc population exceeds 75,000. This puts their numbers well behind such races as bugbears, kobolds, lizardfolk, and demons. In Khorvaire, there are two demons around for every half-orc. :devil:

5) There are 500,000 undying on Aerenal. No wonder the dragons don't try to fight them anymore.

6) Breland is the largest country in Khorvaire, with 1,360,000 sq. mi., covering almost 20% of Khorvaire's land area. Breland is larger than India.

7) Pre-Last War, Aundair was the second largest of the Five Nations (since it controlled the Eldeen Reaches) Cyre was third (since Valenar and Darguun were both Cyran territory), followed by Karrnath and Thrane, the runt of the bunch. I'm not sure if Thrane lost a lot of ground during the war (maybe to Breland? Hmmm....), but assuming the borders were roughly similar pre-war, Thrane was 4 times smaller than any of the other Five Nations.

8) If you want to play a non-Aerenal elf, don't assume you have to be from Valenar. The Valenar elves make up less than 4% of the elven population on Khorvaire, and Khorvaire only has 30% of the elven population. There are 10 times as many elves in Breland as there are in Valenar. Aundair and Karrnath also have elven populations exceeding 200,000.

9) Outside of the remaining 4 Nations, the highest concentration of humans is found in the Demon Wastes. :eek:

10) Not to harp on a point made by others, and this point has been argued over both here and at ENWorld, but Khorvaire is massively underpopulated. A society supposed to model 16th century Europe, with magical advances that duplicate 19th century technology, couldn't survive with a population density under 2.5. At the populations given, and with the very large size of cities in relation to the country's population, the countryside consists of large cities surrounded by a few sq. miles of magically enhanced farmland, and then hundreds of miles of nothing. I know there was a protracted war, but it wasn't continuous war, and before the war there were almost 900 years of peace and prosperity. I'm not saying this to affect anyone else's game, but to satisfy my own personal desire for demographic realism, I'll be uping the populations. Plus, to me, it makes Eberron feel more modern and bustling, which is a good thing. There's still tons of empty space to place adventures, even if I increase the population 10-fold.
DwarvinJedi
09-25-04, 10:03 PM Interesting, but I have to ask, WHY?, but still, I am amazed at most of those numbers, now I am thinking something is wrong, really less than 4% of elves on Khorvaire are living in Valenar.
:bow: Here's to you for using your time for the betterment of others instead of sitting and reading these boards too much :bow:
:cookie:
WotC_Doog
09-25-04, 10:16 PM Cool stuff, 26. :thumbsup: I thought the comparisons of landmass were especially interesting/useful -- knowing that Breland is larger than India really puts it in perspective. Post again if you get bored again! :D
Edymnion
09-25-04, 10:45 PM Hmmm... only 18.2 million people in essentially the entire campaign setting?
That seems really, really low. I think you're right, increasing the population 10 fold would bring it around to a more believable number.
TwoSix26
09-25-04, 11:07 PM Just for you, Doog. :D

1) Karrnath, currently the second biggest nation on Khorvaire, is about the size of Congo, the second biggest country in Africa. It is slightly larger than Greenland. It is roughly the size of Texas and Alaska (the two largest U.S. States) combined.

2) Valenar, the smallest of the nations at about 150,000 sq. mi. , is slightly smaller than California, third largest of the U.S. States.

3) The Mournland is the size of Quebec, Canada's largest province (besides semi-autonomous Nunavut), and slightly smaller than Alaska. At its longest length, it extends for 1300 miles, about the distance between New York City and Lincoln, Nebraska.

4) Pre-War, the size of the 5 Nations combined was 4.7 million sq. mi., an area 30% larger than the entire United States, and 60% larger than Australia. If it existed on Earth, Galifar would be the second largest nation in the world, behind Russia.
Hellcow
09-25-04, 11:29 PM I was bored tonight, so I put together a little geographic spreadsheet from the information in the ECBS.
Impressive!

4) Strictly by the numbers, half-orcs have no business being a PC race... In Khorvaire, there are two demons around for every half-orc. :devil:
Well, the very first sentence of the half-orc description is "half-orcs are rare on Khorvaire." Traditionally, half-orcs have always been a rare race, right? And at 47K, there's still more half-orcs than warforged (or should be). I've never seen a high population as a requirement for being a PC race; the rarity of the race makes the hero exotic and unusual!

5) There are 500,000 undying on Aerenal. No wonder the dragons don't try to fight them anymore.
I don't think the dragons are done with Aerenal. Remember, most of those are undying soldiers and the like; they aren't all councilors.

7) Pre-Last War, Aundair was the second largest of the Five Nations (since it controlled the Eldeen Reaches)
Bear in mind that while Aundair may have laid claim to the Eldeen Reaches, it never controlled the woods in any meaningful way. Aundair had a presence along the trade road and from Mossmantle east. But just as Breland never actually settled Droaam, Aundair never ventured into the woods. The Reaches were always wild.

7) Cyre was third (since Valenar and Darguun were both Cyran territory)
Indeed... though again, Valenar was always a frontier nation, which is one reason the elves have been able to maintain control. The settlers of the area were only loosely associated with the Cyran crown.

but assuming the borders were roughly similar pre-war, Thrane was 4 times smaller than any of the other Five Nations.
Indeed. But Thrane has actually had people spread throughout most of its land, while the other nations have always claimed territory they've never actually inhabited.

10) Not to harp on a point made by others, and this point has been argued over both here and at ENWorld, but Khorvaire is massively underpopulated... I'm not saying this to affect anyone else's game, but to satisfy my own personal desire for demographic realism, I'll be uping the populations.
And I think you should. Following those ENWorld threads, I agree with the poster who said "In my game, the population density will be whatever the scene requires." I didn't set the numbers in the ECS, and when I run my campaign, I don't actually calculate it out and say "Darn, there's just not enough half-orcs in Sharn for me to have three in this fight." If the numbers as they exist don't work for you, by all means change them!

However, I will note that in my view of the world, there IS a lot of empty space in Khorvaire. This is why there are still Dhakaani ruins that humans have yet to explore, why monsters could still find a place in some of the wilds.

But you should certainly adjust it to fit your desires!

I am thinking something is wrong, really less than 4% of elves on Khorvaire are living in Valenar.
The elves of Valenar are fundamentally an army, and an elite army at that. The Tairnadal have always been a minority on Aerenal, and the Valenar represent a fraction of the Tairnadal (not to mention suffering their own losses during the war). The remainder of the elven population includes the elves of Phiarlan and Turanni, but also the descendants of other lines that left Aerenal in the wake of the destruction of the line of Vol. That conflict caused a significant rift in Aerenal, and most of the elven population of Karrnath are descended from houses sympathetic to Vol. This does not mean that they all support the Blood of Vol or the Emerald Claw; many were simply repulsed by the fact that elves had shed the blood of elves, and felt that the soil of Aerenal had been forever tainted.

And, of course, the population also includes Aereni and Tairnadal traders, ambassadors, and the like. While the majority of the Tairnadal are concentrated in Valenar, a small number are spread across the nation.

But yes, there is a large group of elves on Khorvaire that have no ties to Aerenal or Valenar.
Darkest90
09-25-04, 11:48 PM Do you think we could get numbers for all of the races?

I personally would increase everything five or ten-fold, and after that increase the population of certain cities (*coughSharncough*) tenfold again. Also, I want warforged to be a little more popular, so after I am done with all of THAT, I will multiply their population two or three-fold. I don't want them to die out by crazy anti-warforged cults.

Those are just my opinions. Hope you think about them.
Neofish
09-25-04, 11:51 PM I thought that Keith said there was around 50,000 warforged in Khovaire.
TwoSix26
09-26-04, 12:13 AM Humans: 6709600
Aerenal Elves: 2040500
Dwarves: 1448500
Half-Elves: 1366000
Gnomes: 1091000
Halflings: 989500
Khorvaire Elves: 873100
Orcs: 734000
Other: 618320
Undying: 503500
Goblins: 452000
Changelings: 264000
Hobgoblins: 235500
Shifters: 165000
Demons: 150000
Goblinoids: 148000
Lizardfolk: 120000
Kobolds: 110500
Bugbears:104000
Gnolls: 100000
Half-Orcs: 47000
Warforged: 980

The listing for "goblinoids" comes from the Breland entry where they are listed as "goblinoids, all types." The other countries with goblinoid populations had it broken down by goblin, hobgoblin, and bugbear. My personal feeling is that the Brelish goblinoids are about 80-85% goblin (mostly in Sharn), 10-15% hobgoblin, and 5% bugbear (towards Darguun).

And I've heard the 40-50K number being bandied about for warforged...those would be under "other", I'm guessing, leaving behind about 570-580K unidentified "other."
Hellcow
09-26-04, 12:15 AM I thought that Keith said there was around 50,000 warforged in Khovaire.
I may have, at that. :) In which case, there are more warforged than half-orcs (but hey, it's not like there were armies of half-orcs in the war!).

I personally would increase everything five or ten-fold, and after that increase the population of certain cities (*coughSharncough*) tenfold again.
As I said, I certainly think you should adjust the numbers to fit your needs. Frankly, I do agree that 18 million is pretty low. Around 1450 AD (admttedly, followingthe Black Death), the population of Europe was around 50 million (and that's including Russia). So 180 million is still more than I see, since I see a lot of frontier and empty space in Khovaire. But set it where you want! It's not something I ever imagine Wot deciding to consider as errata, but what matters is that you have enough people in the world to make your scenes work.

As a side note on Sharn, in 1500 AD the population of London was around 50,000, so Sharn's beating that by a bunch -- but again, all that really matters is that you're happy with the numbers you end up with.

(And yes, one can certainly argue that livng conditons in Khorvaire are generally presented as being far better than 15th century Europe; as I said, they're not my numbers and I'm not going to fight for them. It's not an issue that affects my personal enjoyment of the game. If it bothers you, you should certainly change it.)
TwoSix26
09-26-04, 12:29 AM Impressive!

I was going to go with "rather scary," but thanks. :D

Well, the very first sentence of the half-orc description is "half-orcs are rare on Khorvaire." Traditionally, half-orcs have always been a rare race, right? And at 47K, there's still more half-orcs than warforged (or should be). I've never seen a high population as a requirement for being a PC race; the rarity of the race makes the hero exotic and unusual!

I definitely agree, I have a half-orc barbarian in my party right now. There's nothing wrong with rare races for heroes. Half the people on the FR boards seem to be playing half-dragon fey'ri, and I don't think they're overwhelming the census takers. ;) The only thing the numbers have shown me is that I definitely want full orc to be a strong option for my players to take.

And I think you should. Following those ENWorld threads, I agree with the poster who said "In my game, the population density will be whatever the scene requires." I didn't set the numbers in the ECS, and when I run my campaign, I don't actually calculate it out and say "Darn, there's just not enough half-orcs in Sharn for me to have three in this fight." If the numbers as they exist don't work for you, by all means change them!

However, I will note that in my view of the world, there IS a lot of empty space in Khorvaire. This is why there are still Dhakaani ruins that humans have yet to explore, why monsters could still find a place in some of the wilds.

But you should certainly adjust it to fit your desires!

Another thing I totally agree with. I would never use the numbers in my game to say, "Oh, this type of encounter would never happen." An adventure, almost by definition, should be full of out of the ordinary encounters.

The issue with the numbers for me is one of bringing the campaign world fully to life. I think a lot of us on these boards (especially the DMs) don't simply think about our campaigns while we're playing. The campaign, and by extension the campaign world, especially one as new and exciting as Eberron, is something that takes up a lot of our thinking. Part of the fun of D&D isn't just playing, it's the planning and dreaming and imagining of the whole world. I know people who buy the books even though they haven't had a group, simply for that aspect of the game. And for me, numbers and figures help bring a world alive, just like the art and words of a campaign book or adventure. For me, those numbers have a real meaning...that's why I want them to be "right." Their discrepancy intrudes on the fantasy that I need to create in order to be a good DM. Because if I can't see the world in my mind, and really get a sense of how it runs, I'll never be able to bring Eberron to life for my players.
Hellcow
09-26-04, 12:32 AM And I've heard the 40-50K number being bandied about for warforged...those would be under "other", I'm guessing
Indeed. 10-16,000 warforged still don't add up to 1% of the population in any of the Five Nations.

I will say that I personally think 1,000 warforged in the Mournland is too low. It's a large place and a good place for warforged seeking solitude from humanity; I'm inclined to put a few small waforged communities spread about, and raise that number to the range of 4-5,000. So see? Even i'm adjusting population numbers. ;)
Darkest90
09-26-04, 01:06 AM Of course, I will use as many as I wish for any scene I wish to have. Still, I would like to change the numbers, if only to make myself feel comfortable. Small warforged communities in the Mournlands? Cool, I am adding that to my map. :)
The_other
09-26-04, 02:27 AM 1) Karrnath, currently the second biggest nation on Khorvaire, is about the size of Congo, the second biggest country in Africa. It is slightly larger than Greenland. It is roughly the size of Texas and Alaska (the two largest U.S. States) combined.

Noooooooo!!!! :(

My beloved Karrnath will someday crush Breland with Kaius III(or Kaius I) leading the crusade! And then Karrnath will be the largest nation! And then we can hunt the Blood of Vol and their damnable Order of the Emerald Claw.
And after that we will finaly have enough strength to crush Thrane and their false prophet of the demon bound Sliver Flame!

Muhahahahahahaha...haha...ha..he..uhh... er......what?

Though seriously good work. :thumbsup:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TwoSix26 09-25-04, 09:43 PM	I was bored tonight, so I put together a little geographic spreadsheet from the information in the ECBS. A few interesting tidbits I gleaned about Khorvaire: 1) Khorvaire (not counting Aerenal) is almost exactly the size of South America, coming in at 6.70 million sq. mi. It is 1 million sq. mi. smaller than North America, and about half the size of Asia. Khorvaire is also roughly the size of Faerun on Toril. 2) Khorvaire (counting Aerenal) has a population of 18,271,000. Humans are the most predominant race on Khorvaire, account for 37% of the population. Elves are second, at 16%. 70% of all elves live on Aerenal. Rounding out the top 5 are dwarves, half-elves, and gnomes, at 7.9%, 7.5%, and 6.0%, respectively. 3) Races defined as other account for 3.4% of the overall population. 4) Strictly by the numbers, half-orcs have no business being a PC race. There are only 47,000 half-orcs in Khorvaire, per straight population listings. While the "other" category certainly holds some half-orcs, particularly in Droaam, the Eldeen Reaches, Breland, Karrnath, and the Mror Holds, it seems unlikely that the half-orc population exceeds 75,000. This puts their numbers well behind such races as bugbears, kobolds, lizardfolk, and demons. In Khorvaire, there are two demons around for every half-orc. :devil: 5) There are 500,000 undying on Aerenal. No wonder the dragons don't try to fight them anymore. 6) Breland is the largest country in Khorvaire, with 1,360,000 sq. mi., covering almost 20% of Khorvaire's land area. Breland is larger than India. 7) Pre-Last War, Aundair was the second largest of the Five Nations (since it controlled the Eldeen Reaches) Cyre was third (since Valenar and Darguun were both Cyran territory), followed by Karrnath and Thrane, the runt of the bunch. I'm not sure if Thrane lost a lot of ground during the war (maybe to Breland? Hmmm....), but assuming the borders were roughly similar pre-war, Thrane was 4 times smaller than any of the other Five Nations. 8) If you want to play a non-Aerenal elf, don't assume you have to be from Valenar. The Valenar elves make up less than 4% of the elven population on Khorvaire, and Khorvaire only has 30% of the elven population. There are 10 times as many elves in Breland as there are in Valenar. Aundair and Karrnath also have elven populations exceeding 200,000. 9) Outside of the remaining 4 Nations, the highest concentration of humans is found in the Demon Wastes. :eek: 10) Not to harp on a point made by others, and this point has been argued over both here and at ENWorld, but Khorvaire is massively underpopulated. A society supposed to model 16th century Europe, with magical advances that duplicate 19th century technology, couldn't survive with a population density under 2.5. At the populations given, and with the very large size of cities in relation to the country's population, the countryside consists of large cities surrounded by a few sq. miles of magically enhanced farmland, and then hundreds of miles of nothing. I know there was a protracted war, but it wasn't continuous war, and before the war there were almost 900 years of peace and prosperity. I'm not saying this to affect anyone else's game, but to satisfy my own personal desire for demographic realism, I'll be uping the populations. Plus, to me, it makes Eberron feel more modern and bustling, which is a good thing. There's still tons of empty space to place adventures, even if I increase the population 10-fold.
DwarvinJedi 09-25-04, 10:03 PM	Interesting, but I have to ask, WHY?, but still, I am amazed at most of those numbers, now I am thinking something is wrong, really less than 4% of elves on Khorvaire are living in Valenar. :bow: Here's to you for using your time for the betterment of others instead of sitting and reading these boards too much :bow: :cookie:
WotC_Doog 09-25-04, 10:16 PM	Cool stuff, 26. :thumbsup: I thought the comparisons of landmass were especially interesting/useful -- knowing that Breland is larger than India really puts it in perspective. Post again if you get bored again! :D
Edymnion 09-25-04, 10:45 PM	Hmmm... only 18.2 million people in essentially the entire campaign setting? That seems really, really low. I think you're right, increasing the population 10 fold would bring it around to a more believable number.
TwoSix26 09-25-04, 11:07 PM	Just for you, Doog. :D 1) Karrnath, currently the second biggest nation on Khorvaire, is about the size of Congo, the second biggest country in Africa. It is slightly larger than Greenland. It is roughly the size of Texas and Alaska (the two largest U.S. States) combined. 2) Valenar, the smallest of the nations at about 150,000 sq. mi. , is slightly smaller than California, third largest of the U.S. States. 3) The Mournland is the size of Quebec, Canada's largest province (besides semi-autonomous Nunavut), and slightly smaller than Alaska. At its longest length, it extends for 1300 miles, about the distance between New York City and Lincoln, Nebraska. 4) Pre-War, the size of the 5 Nations combined was 4.7 million sq. mi., an area 30% larger than the entire United States, and 60% larger than Australia. If it existed on Earth, Galifar would be the second largest nation in the world, behind Russia.
Hellcow 09-25-04, 11:29 PM	I was bored tonight, so I put together a little geographic spreadsheet from the information in the ECBS. Impressive! 4) Strictly by the numbers, half-orcs have no business being a PC race... In Khorvaire, there are two demons around for every half-orc. :devil: Well, the very first sentence of the half-orc description is "half-orcs are rare on Khorvaire." Traditionally, half-orcs have always been a rare race, right? And at 47K, there's still more half-orcs than warforged (or should be). I've never seen a high population as a requirement for being a PC race; the rarity of the race makes the hero exotic and unusual! 5) There are 500,000 undying on Aerenal. No wonder the dragons don't try to fight them anymore. I don't think the dragons are done with Aerenal. Remember, most of those are undying soldiers and the like; they aren't all councilors. 7) Pre-Last War, Aundair was the second largest of the Five Nations (since it controlled the Eldeen Reaches) Bear in mind that while Aundair may have laid claim to the Eldeen Reaches, it never controlled the woods in any meaningful way. Aundair had a presence along the trade road and from Mossmantle east. But just as Breland never actually settled Droaam, Aundair never ventured into the woods. The Reaches were always wild. 7) Cyre was third (since Valenar and Darguun were both Cyran territory) Indeed... though again, Valenar was always a frontier nation, which is one reason the elves have been able to maintain control. The settlers of the area were only loosely associated with the Cyran crown. but assuming the borders were roughly similar pre-war, Thrane was 4 times smaller than any of the other Five Nations. Indeed. But Thrane has actually had people spread throughout most of its land, while the other nations have always claimed territory they've never actually inhabited. 10) Not to harp on a point made by others, and this point has been argued over both here and at ENWorld, but Khorvaire is massively underpopulated... I'm not saying this to affect anyone else's game, but to satisfy my own personal desire for demographic realism, I'll be uping the populations. And I think you should. Following those ENWorld threads, I agree with the poster who said "In my game, the population density will be whatever the scene requires." I didn't set the numbers in the ECS, and when I run my campaign, I don't actually calculate it out and say "Darn, there's just not enough half-orcs in Sharn for me to have three in this fight." If the numbers as they exist don't work for you, by all means change them! However, I will note that in my view of the world, there IS a lot of empty space in Khorvaire. This is why there are still Dhakaani ruins that humans have yet to explore, why monsters could still find a place in some of the wilds. But you should certainly adjust it to fit your desires! I am thinking something is wrong, really less than 4% of elves on Khorvaire are living in Valenar. The elves of Valenar are fundamentally an army, and an elite army at that. The Tairnadal have always been a minority on Aerenal, and the Valenar represent a fraction of the Tairnadal (not to mention suffering their own losses during the war). The remainder of the elven population includes the elves of Phiarlan and Turanni, but also the descendants of other lines that left Aerenal in the wake of the destruction of the line of Vol. That conflict caused a significant rift in Aerenal, and most of the elven population of Karrnath are descended from houses sympathetic to Vol. This does not mean that they all support the Blood of Vol or the Emerald Claw; many were simply repulsed by the fact that elves had shed the blood of elves, and felt that the soil of Aerenal had been forever tainted. And, of course, the population also includes Aereni and Tairnadal traders, ambassadors, and the like. While the majority of the Tairnadal are concentrated in Valenar, a small number are spread across the nation. But yes, there is a large group of elves on Khorvaire that have no ties to Aerenal or Valenar.
Darkest90 09-25-04, 11:48 PM	Do you think we could get numbers for all of the races? I personally would increase everything five or ten-fold, and after that increase the population of certain cities (coughSharncough) tenfold again. Also, I want warforged to be a little more popular, so after I am done with all of THAT, I will multiply their population two or three-fold. I don't want them to die out by crazy anti-warforged cults. Those are just my opinions. Hope you think about them.
Neofish 09-25-04, 11:51 PM	I thought that Keith said there was around 50,000 warforged in Khovaire.
TwoSix26 09-26-04, 12:13 AM	Humans: 6709600 Aerenal Elves: 2040500 Dwarves: 1448500 Half-Elves: 1366000 Gnomes: 1091000 Halflings: 989500 Khorvaire Elves: 873100 Orcs: 734000 Other: 618320 Undying: 503500 Goblins: 452000 Changelings: 264000 Hobgoblins: 235500 Shifters: 165000 Demons: 150000 Goblinoids: 148000 Lizardfolk: 120000 Kobolds: 110500 Bugbears:104000 Gnolls: 100000 Half-Orcs: 47000 Warforged: 980 The listing for "goblinoids" comes from the Breland entry where they are listed as "goblinoids, all types." The other countries with goblinoid populations had it broken down by goblin, hobgoblin, and bugbear. My personal feeling is that the Brelish goblinoids are about 80-85% goblin (mostly in Sharn), 10-15% hobgoblin, and 5% bugbear (towards Darguun). And I've heard the 40-50K number being bandied about for warforged...those would be under "other", I'm guessing, leaving behind about 570-580K unidentified "other."
Hellcow 09-26-04, 12:15 AM	I thought that Keith said there was around 50,000 warforged in Khovaire. I may have, at that. :) In which case, there are more warforged than half-orcs (but hey, it's not like there were armies of half-orcs in the war!). I personally would increase everything five or ten-fold, and after that increase the population of certain cities (coughSharncough) tenfold again. As I said, I certainly think you should adjust the numbers to fit your needs. Frankly, I do agree that 18 million is pretty low. Around 1450 AD (admttedly, followingthe Black Death), the population of Europe was around 50 million (and that's including Russia). So 180 million is still more than I see, since I see a lot of frontier and empty space in Khovaire. But set it where you want! It's not something I ever imagine Wot deciding to consider as errata, but what matters is that you have enough people in the world to make your scenes work. As a side note on Sharn, in 1500 AD the population of London was around 50,000, so Sharn's beating that by a bunch -- but again, all that really matters is that you're happy with the numbers you end up with. (And yes, one can certainly argue that livng conditons in Khorvaire are generally presented as being far better than 15th century Europe; as I said, they're not my numbers and I'm not going to fight for them. It's not an issue that affects my personal enjoyment of the game. If it bothers you, you should certainly change it.)
TwoSix26 09-26-04, 12:29 AM	Impressive! I was going to go with "rather scary," but thanks. :D Well, the very first sentence of the half-orc description is "half-orcs are rare on Khorvaire." Traditionally, half-orcs have always been a rare race, right? And at 47K, there's still more half-orcs than warforged (or should be). I've never seen a high population as a requirement for being a PC race; the rarity of the race makes the hero exotic and unusual! I definitely agree, I have a half-orc barbarian in my party right now. There's nothing wrong with rare races for heroes. Half the people on the FR boards seem to be playing half-dragon fey'ri, and I don't think they're overwhelming the census takers. ;) The only thing the numbers have shown me is that I definitely want full orc to be a strong option for my players to take. And I think you should. Following those ENWorld threads, I agree with the poster who said "In my game, the population density will be whatever the scene requires." I didn't set the numbers in the ECS, and when I run my campaign, I don't actually calculate it out and say "Darn, there's just not enough half-orcs in Sharn for me to have three in this fight." If the numbers as they exist don't work for you, by all means change them! However, I will note that in my view of the world, there IS a lot of empty space in Khorvaire. This is why there are still Dhakaani ruins that humans have yet to explore, why monsters could still find a place in some of the wilds. But you should certainly adjust it to fit your desires! Another thing I totally agree with. I would never use the numbers in my game to say, "Oh, this type of encounter would never happen." An adventure, almost by definition, should be full of out of the ordinary encounters. The issue with the numbers for me is one of bringing the campaign world fully to life. I think a lot of us on these boards (especially the DMs) don't simply think about our campaigns while we're playing. The campaign, and by extension the campaign world, especially one as new and exciting as Eberron, is something that takes up a lot of our thinking. Part of the fun of D&D isn't just playing, it's the planning and dreaming and imagining of the whole world. I know people who buy the books even though they haven't had a group, simply for that aspect of the game. And for me, numbers and figures help bring a world alive, just like the art and words of a campaign book or adventure. For me, those numbers have a real meaning...that's why I want them to be "right." Their discrepancy intrudes on the fantasy that I need to create in order to be a good DM. Because if I can't see the world in my mind, and really get a sense of how it runs, I'll never be able to bring Eberron to life for my players.
Hellcow 09-26-04, 12:32 AM	And I've heard the 40-50K number being bandied about for warforged...those would be under "other", I'm guessing Indeed. 10-16,000 warforged still don't add up to 1% of the population in any of the Five Nations. I will say that I personally think 1,000 warforged in the Mournland is too low. It's a large place and a good place for warforged seeking solitude from humanity; I'm inclined to put a few small waforged communities spread about, and raise that number to the range of 4-5,000. So see? Even i'm adjusting population numbers. ;)
Darkest90 09-26-04, 01:06 AM	Of course, I will use as many as I wish for any scene I wish to have. Still, I would like to change the numbers, if only to make myself feel comfortable. Small warforged communities in the Mournlands? Cool, I am adding that to my map. :)
The_other 09-26-04, 02:27 AM	1) Karrnath, currently the second biggest nation on Khorvaire, is about the size of Congo, the second biggest country in Africa. It is slightly larger than Greenland. It is roughly the size of Texas and Alaska (the two largest U.S. States) combined. Noooooooo!!!! :( My beloved Karrnath will someday crush Breland with Kaius III(or Kaius I) leading the crusade! And then Karrnath will be the largest nation! And then we can hunt the Blood of Vol and their damnable Order of the Emerald Claw. And after that we will finaly have enough strength to crush Thrane and their false prophet of the demon bound Sliver Flame! Muhahahahahahaha...haha...ha..he..uhh... er......what? Though seriously good work. :thumbsup: