Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ccerose 04-17-05, 10:28 PM	How do I do it? The PCs in my campaign don't seem to grasp the concept of diplomacy and gather information. It's all about bashing heads in first, ask questions later. They started off their adventure on somewhat positive terms. The PCs made some gather information checks. But when they found someone who had some information, the warforged smashes the guys head into the side of a building and throws him off the docks into Dagger River. Mind you, they're in Sharn, so it's not like the city guard didn't notice. The warforged gets arrested and imprisoned. The other PCs then argue with the magistrate who offered them a job to give the warforged a get out of jail free card. The magistrate didn't care because he had offered the same job to any adventures who were interested. The bail to get the forged out is way more than the 1st level PCs have. The rogue enters the jail and cold cocks one of the guards and gets locked up with the idea that he can escape from his cell, free the warforged, and then bypass 10 guards positioned between the holding cells and the only exit in the jail. I was half tempted to let them rot in jail, call it a night, and let the other DM go back to running his epic level campaign. I somewhat conceded and had the magistrate make them an offer. Release from prison, but the reward dropped by 50%. The PCs agreed to this. The group made a few more gather information checks, and were approached by an NPC with information. Fortunately they agreed to his price. I was actually shocked they didn't attempt to make an intimidate check after their diplomacy check failed. I was expecting the warforged to attempt his skills at negotiating again putting us back at square one again. Part of the adventure takes place on a ship. Even though I tell them that a rope ladder was lowered as the PCs made their way to the ship in a skiff they hired, when they arrive at the ship, the Psion decides he wants to blast a hole in the side, then have the warforge rip open the planks so they can enter "undetected". Seeing where this was going, I had one of the NPC sailors hail the party before the Psion had a chance to act. When the captain declarted that he didn't want a group of landlubbers snooping around his ship, their first reaction was to rough him up despite the fact that half of the 20 sailors had formed a small circle around the PCs. The actual story arc hasn't started, I just wanted to introduce them to Eberron. They say they want to continue, so I've got a few more sessions of encounters and story planned out. Can anyone educate me on the best way to enable my PCs to understand the flavor and gaming style of Eberron?
Puppy 04-17-05, 10:46 PM	Oh dear God, man. You have my most sincere sympathies. However, if I was in you shoes (which I thank God, Allah, Mystra, the Traveller and Ollandra for I'm not, and I'm an atheist) I would probably go about solving the problem in much the same way as you are. You seem to be getting the point across pretty well, let's hope the players pick up on it. However, despite Eberron being a world where alignment is underplayed, in your case I would strike down on any character with a Lawful or even Neutral alignment who behaves in this way. Just as a tool to get the message across. If this goes on, tell the players (out of character) what you expect of them. And if it still doesn't work, as a last option, withhold xp. Hope this was helpful.
Methos of Aundair 04-17-05, 11:01 PM	One thing my continuous players know plus I make sure to inform any new players to my table is that the encounters are not tailor made for them. In other words I've had 11th level characters go up against an ECL 3 encounter. I've also put 4th level characters against an ECL 8 encounter. Because of this my players know that not all encounters are meant to be battles. Because of this my players don't go into every encounter assuming it's going to be a fight. Obvious terrain conditions not withstanding of course (as in a dungeon). This gets the players to pay more attention towards the encounter rather than towards what their going to attack with. BTW, I give xp for non-combat encounters. My suggestion, put your characters up against something that is way too tough for them. Don't kill them, just make it an encounter they can't win. I would suggest another group of good alignment that came too discuss something. After the players attack the group and get whomped have this other group have a little 'talk' with them.
Alac Luin 04-17-05, 11:27 PM	It is very hard to break a hack and slash mentality. Another good thing about Eberron, it lends itself to this type of play also. The use of action points and feats like action surge and raging luck are hack and slash candy. Part of the “pulp” aspect is the being set upon by overwhelming odds. My answer, suggestion here is Darguun. Almost limitless supply of goblins and hobgoblins pouring out of the Seawall Mountains, they can hack and slash till the cows come home. Diplomacy can be included, contact with the various tribes, making friendly contact with shadowy characters that took refuge there.
DwarvinJedi 04-17-05, 11:52 PM	I am borrowing this from someone on the boards, I jsut can't remember who(I think it was on the UA and House-rules board), give "goal-based" XP, set an XP award for completing their "goal", determined by you of course, no matter how they accomplished it, even if they completley destroyed every Inspired on Sarlona to do it, when they could of jsut talked to the ambassador. I am thinking of implementing this in my next campaign.
Kaleanae en'i Mori 04-18-05, 12:45 AM	Gee I'd be cringing at these guys. Simply there action will justify the outcomes. If they end up in jail and then some hair-brianed attempt to escape then if you kill them off its their own stupid fault. Perhaps you could explain to them where the jail is in Sharn? Full of Citadel Agent and Dark Lantern. Or perhaps give them a chance meeting with the Knight Marshal. If this is the way they wish to play then I'd give them what they want and if they all die, tough luck! I'd not hesitate. If they have just finished playing Epic lvl they are probably still in Epic mode, time to brain that out of them.
nick012000 04-18-05, 01:30 AM	Mind you, they're in Sharn, so it's not like the city guard didn't notice. The warforged gets arrested and imprisoned. Depends on where in Sharn they are. If they're in a bad neighborhood, it's entirely possible that the Watch would notice, or for that matter, care. Well, they might care enough to get a bribe from the PCs, but that's about it. And in Breland, imprisonment tends to be temporary. You either get executed, fined, whipped, or whatever, then get your ID marked and sent on you merry way.
ccerose 04-18-05, 03:04 AM	My suggestion, put your characters up against something that is way too tough for them. Don't kill them, just make it an encounter they can't win. I would suggest another group of good alignment that came too discuss something. After the players attack the group and get whomped have this other group have a little 'talk' with them. I like this idea. I had been toying around with the idea of having a party of NPCs searching for clues in a related story arc. I'm almost positive that the PCs will see the encounter as a fight and not an opportunity to gather more information. But having a party of good NPCs to educate them will hopefully bring them more in line of how to conduct themselves.
Setherial 04-18-05, 08:06 AM	They do seem a hard crowd to DM :) a few options of which some were already suggested above : - grant extra XP for social encounters and comming up with a "SMART" answer - lower XP of combat encounters - create a good mix of challenge ratings so that not every encounter can be solved with violence. - have a merchant they roughed up hire some Daask thoughguys to return the favour and deliver them the message they won't live too long if they keep up their way of living. If they do insist on playing evil characters that often run into law you might want to change the direction of your campaign towards that end. For instance : - the party is arrested a few times and their reputation is spreading not only among the law (they should feel that the law no longer considers them welcome in Sharn) but also in underground circles. Soon they are approached by the Boromar Clan who insist they come work for them. (this can get very interesting) - the party meets a fellow in jail who offers them great wealth if they get him out - the party gets involved with some occult organization of the Dragon Below, getting themselves deeper and deeper into a situation they wish they had never got themselves into. Not long from now they'll be eating out of the hand of some mindflayer overlord. - The party insists on breaking the law time and time again until they assassinate the wrong person and get themselves a free ride to Dreadhold :) (again a wealth of opportunity)
Smiley 04-18-05, 09:44 AM	Excellent replies... o.O I'd say keep your style going. If you know they are about to do something stupid, try to avoid it (with a minimum of I'm-not-letting-you-do-that play). Just like you did with the ship... If they rough up people and get smacked in jail, then that's their punishment, they can either work their way to freedom, or rot in there, and start over as new chars, who are hired to free them, and get their old chars to do a job... If they feel too mighty in some cases, have them make will-checks not to be frightened/unnerved/panicked.. (Which was the case with a mage player, who calmly thought out which spells would work on the hydra 5 feet away from him, instead of running away.) As said before, reward them when doing smart things etc. But as a fellow DM, I'll have to warn you though, my group is usually hack'n'slash minded, although they're not so stupid as to wander in if they know they don't have a chance(which they need to help to realize). But I remind myself, that even though I want to have fun, I'm also responsible for delivering the fun to my players... So if they crave hack'n'slash, give them some, if only for a brief time once in a while... That way you keep them happy, and on their toes if those are tough battles, especially ones they don't expect or aren't looking for. I'll give you a free idea for some hack'n'slash: Blood Asylum: An Asylum in Sharn is throwing out more bodies than usual. Several of these seem to be drained of blood, or mising limbs, unfortunately for you, your contact is in there. Tales of insane blood drinkers/Tales of large walking dead made of corpses, infest the neighborhood. Why the contact is inside: The information they need is known only by one of the inhabitants of the Asylum, who has gone mildly insane, or so the saying goes. But is he truly insane, or are the horrors he speaks of something he has seen? What will they encounter: Some crazed vampire spawn are roaming the asylum at night, but they are shifty and make sure they are not noticed. OR The owner of the asylum has created several creatures from the corpses of the asylum. These are puny constructs though, compared to the true flesh-golem he is building now. What is the purpose: To put some fright into your players, let them know that they're in danger of something they can't see, or rarely see. How is it hack'n'slash: After a good while of suspence, have the party trapped and send flocks of either spawns, zombies or flesh constructs against them. I know it's a corny half-assed plot made up from old movies, but this *works*. It has worked on my group every single time I've used it at least, not that one exactly, but something like it. I hope you find it useful or inspiring.
Talon Blackhart 04-18-05, 11:37 AM	Well, first, I sympathize with you. I would really not like to be in your position. My group is (for the most part) really good at the diplomacy/ gather info/ etc. stuff. The problem comes up in that I have 2 players who really like that stuff, and 1 who is almost purely hack-n-slash. This means that he doesn't role-play much at all. If it isn't fighting, he isn't really interested. My method of dealing with this: Bonus XP for role-playing, cinematics, etc. More bonus XP for coming up with a "smart" solution. I do that on the spot, so everyone at the table knows what I thought of the person's action. Lowering XP for combat. Encounters they can't survive, to encourage thinking. Not every encounter is actually at their challenge rating. And (and this will probably get me shot for admitting this on the boards) I occasionally dock XP for really stupid in-game actions. Usually not much, just enough to get the point across. I also do that on the spot. However, I will also say that usually if a group prefers hack-n-slash, especially if they've played that way for a long time, it's very difficult to break them of that habit. I have noticed that most people have a preferred style of playing, and they aren't very willing to actually change that style.
Grynn 04-18-05, 02:11 PM	Depends on where in Sharn they are. If they're in a bad neighborhood, it's entirely possible that the Watch would notice, or for that matter, care. Well, they might care enough to get a bribe from the PCs, but that's about it. And in Breland, imprisonment tends to be temporary. You either get executed, fined, whipped, or whatever, then get your ID marked and sent on you merry way. He mentioned that it was at the docks, so there should be at least a small watch presence to take bribes from smugglers and arrest the ones that don't have the good sense to use bribes.
ekomega 04-18-05, 06:20 PM	I would suggest talking to your players about everything. Forget all this passive-aggressive round-about nonsense with changing XP awards and doing a lot of work. Clearly you want a game that is more roleplay oriented, and the people you play with seem to want a hack n' slash fest. Both styles of play are okay, as long as the group enjoys it. Seems like you don't enjoy it, but they do. So tell them. Work it out, hear their opinions on it. At the next game, just bring it up. Ask them if they want more roleplay, or more hack, or whatever, and see what they say. Hopefully it coincides with what you want, and your DM style. If they say they want roleplay, ask them why they always try and hack everything up if they want roleplay. Ask them if that is what roleplay is to them, and explain what roleplay means to you. If they want all hack, decide if you want to DM that way. If you don't, maybe someone else can DM, or your group can break up. You can't just go and make adventures that you enjoy and you think your players will enjoy, you have to figure out what they like and also figure out what you like. Seems like you have differing ideas from your players. There's no wrong way to play the game, and I am confused by the "sympathy" shown by the other posters. What exactly is wrong with their ideas? So they want to blow a hole in a ship, instead of being subtle. They seemed to enjoy trying to get out of jail as well. If they complained about the consequences of their actions, I'd say there was a problem. But they seem to be having fun doing whatever, and having fun living through the consequences of their interesting ideas. In fact, I'd say doing outlandish stuff and having fun is what that group of characters is all about. But again, it seems that isn't "fun" to the DM. "Eberron" doesn't seem to be the issue, since the campaign can be however you want it. Eberron does lean towards certain kinds of games and certain storylines, but it doesn't have to. It is really easy, as others have suggested, to make an entirely hack game in Eberron. I offer another example: The PCs are those paladin orcs in the labyrinth in the Demon Wastes. They are young and inexperienced, and they need to constantly hack up demons until they get better. They could hack for the rest of their orc lives. I don't think it's fair, or right (obviously), to try and design a game a certain way and force the players to do it your way by giving penalties (or bonuses) because they play differently than you, and don't play the encounter how you want. That's part of my definition of being a bad DM. Encounters can lean towards one solution, but can be solved by ingenuity an entirely different way. That's roleplaying, and having creative players running characters, and part of the fun (for me, anyway).
JohnnyONeal 04-19-05, 09:55 AM	It sounds to me like your players are rebelling against a play style they're not tremendously interested in. They like Eberron -- and your DMing -- enough to keep playing, but they're looking for something that moves more like an action movie than an episode of the West Wing. Balance between combat encounters and social encounters is key. If you have three social encounters in a row, your players are likely to get restless. Compared to gathering information all night, a jailbreak sounds like fun to me, too. And I always play socially-oriented rogues and bards! So next time you get together, kick things off with a combat encounter. Whatever they're doing, you can always have some agents of an opposing organization or faction ambush them. If they're going to meet an NPC, have them walk in on some bad guys (or a summoned or intelligent monster) attacking that NPC. If the PCs have to protect or rescue an NPC, they're a lot less likely to toss the NPC into a wall when they find them. After a couple of challenging battles, they're likely to be hurting enough that they won't want to start unnecessary fights. They'll have a better sense of who the actual enemies are. That's the perfect time for the social encounters. Based on the actions you describe, another type of encounter they might enjoy is one based on stealth or infiltration. (They might not be good at it, but that's anothr matter.) Social, stealth, and combat: that's a good mix of encounter types for any urban adventure. Finally, make sure the PCs have a compelling reason to stay involved in the adventure. If their only reward is cash, they might as well be treasure-hunting in Xen'drik. Appeal to their sense of right and wrong, put a loved one in jeopardy, or simply present an intriguing mystery. As ekomega said, Eberron has tons of opportunity for hack-and-slash adventures. Ancient ruins, bad goblin neighborhoods, aberration-infested marshes, haunted Last War garrisons, teeming jungles, the depths of Khyber... all of these hack-and-slash adventure sites are 100% Eberron. Of course, so is a socially-oriented adventure set entirely in Sharn. Just keep in mind that what's at issue here is a question of style rather than setting. Try to prioritize your players' fun over the story you're trying to tell. If the PCs don't have productive applications for the feats and skills they've chosen, they'll find disruptive ways to use them. It sounds like you're a good DM, and like your players are willing to be flexible. Tailor your adventure to their interests and I'm sure you'll have a great time.
Ithamar 04-19-05, 11:42 AM	I thought I would just drop my two cents down. I took over DM'ing my group that had previously been pure hack and slash. Under the prior DM, I don't think any of the PC's besides mine even had a backstory. But that is what the group liked. I knew that Eberron would be a different focus for them, but when I presented it to the group, they wanted to give it a try. Something I found immensely helpful were the module adventures, the one included in the ECS, and also the three additional printed ones. They have a good mixture of fighting and social interraction, and there are some challenges that require thinking more than swordplay. In general I feel that the modules are very well written, and I know that my players have enjoyed going through them. Plus, the players knew that I had spent my own money buying the modules, so they were much more willing to give them a try. They were frustrated at times because they were not used to making skill checks all that much. In the prior group we used to just use 4 skills (spot, search, hide, move silently), but all of a sudden I had players putting ranks in Diplomacy and Gather Information! I was thrilled. In between modules, when I started introducing more social interraction, and a few twists and turns based upon their perceived stereotypes, it made it really fun. So my advice: don't give up, try the modules, and if need be, force them into combat that HAS to lead them into social interractions. :twocents:
lugnut71 04-19-05, 11:45 AM	I agree if they want to play Hack n Slash you can't force diplomacy on them. After a while you will only get disgruntled players. After a time perhaps you can ease them into it slowly. I suggest a lot of fighting early on and slowly work you way towards a more settled adventure. If your lucky they may find out they like this. On the other hand they may find out they don't but then you will know what kind of adventures to give them. What happens next depends on whether your having fun DMing for them. If you still are continue with the Hack n Slash. If your not having fun then stop DMing.
Smiley 04-19-05, 12:22 PM	If your not having fun then stop DMing. I hate DM'ing usually. I find it a task, rather than enjoyment. I find it to be a loathesome task at that, having to prepare myself for the next session etc. it's like doing homework. But I do it because there are no other *good* ones in our group and nearest circle of friends, and because when I do finally DM, I get to see a group be amazed, scared, have fun and watch their characters die a tragic death when things go awry or if they utterly deserve it... Enjoyment of a kind, but not exactly "fun". So you don't always have a choice for DM'ing... just thought I'd mention it =/ :twocents: and all...
ccerose 04-19-05, 02:47 PM	Thanks for all the great responses. We just played through the second Eberron session. Things went from slightly better, to pretty good. The game started off with some very brief gather information checks which sent the PCs on their way. The gather information checks sent them in the direction of The Fallen district where they encountered a gang of Goblin/Hobgoblin thugs. It almost had an old western at sundown feel to it. I described the residents of this district, mostly goblins, orcs, and gnolls, as clearing the street and shuttering their windows as the gang of hobgoblins began to surround the PCs. The PCs enjoyed the challenge. But they also made the decision to beat a hasty retreat when more of the "residents" started to exit their homes. There was a brief interlude as the PCs discussed what to do next. One of the PCs who is more of the fight now, ask questions later types, decided to go into a pub and pick a fight. I described the patrons of the bars he had entered as commoners, but he wanted someone who would be a challenge. I had prepared about 1/2 a dozen NPCs who had class levels 3-4 higher than the PCs. I had the PC roll a d6 to see which one was in the pub. The PC challenged the NPC to a fight in the form of a wager. When the NPC stated that she wasn't interested, the PC attacked. When he was at a single hit point, the NPC gave him a choice. The PC decided to beat a hasty retreat with his tail between his legs (literally, he's a shifter). The adventure resumed the following morning, with the PCs coming across a group of NPCs. One of whom was the same one who put the beat down on the shifter. The encounter went great. Some pretty good role playing took place. The shifter PC played his part very humbly. The PCs made some Diplomacy checks and got some information. I immediately awarded them ad-hoc exp for the non combat encounter. When they came upon the next encounter, I was a little bit surprised how they approached it. Rather than approaching stealthily, the rogue in the party went tromping up to this walled compound with orc sentries clearly posted on towers some 20 feet tall. Several of the other PCs were equally dismayed. Despite this, the encounter went great. Lots of action. When they realized that the orc drummer was actually a bard playing inspire courage, they focused their attention on him. The rogue in the party was initially shocked and frustrated that his roguish skills weren't having much effect on the orc rogue who's level surpassed the PC. The party managed to bring the leader of these orcs down to just a few hit points. The NPC pleaded for his life in exchange for information. Once again, this exchange went really well. They not only spared him his life, but after making some sense motive checks, diplomacy checks, and intimidate checks released the orc who agreed that "cooperation" in the future might benefit the both of them. Even though they had fun with the first two fights of the evening, I wanted to make sure they got their weekly dose of hack and slash. After the encounter at the orc encampment, they did some searching and found a freshly dug tunnel that led to remains below Sharn. This allowed me to throw some dungeon crawl encounters their way. The session ended with them on board a mine cart that was plummeting out of control down a pitch black corridor. The first session just ended, and for the second session I wanted to throw the "cliffer hanger" in. They definitely wanted to keep going. I told them that this gave them a week to figure out what they were going to do. We also talked about the direction the game was going. For the most part they were enjoying the way things were going. They felt there was a good balance between combat and non-combat encounters.
Dragom 04-19-05, 04:22 PM	This is a counter hack and slash game I ran for a hack and slash player. Set in Koranberg. There where a lot of members of the trust with hold person wands I'll tell you. The artificer was lounging around in his upstairs office when a brunette came in. A teary eyed Sivis gnome brunette. Who asked kindly and offered generously if he could please please clear her name and keep house Sivis from killing her. It went on to an ambushed caravan of Dhaakani relics, and the only clue a single copper Aurum ring that no one could identify. And on to how every one in korranberg from the library, to a currupt Sivis/Aurum beurocrat, to an party of Aurum members, to the Dhaakhani knowledge seekers to Haruk Lhesh himself wanted one specific artificact.
Xaraan 04-23-05, 07:32 PM	One thing my continuous players know plus I make sure to inform any new players to my table is that the encounters are not tailor made for them. In other words I've had 11th level characters go up against an ECL 3 encounter. I've also put 4th level characters against an ECL 8 encounter. Because of this my players know that not all encounters are meant to be battles... I have always loved to do this myself. I had a bunch of 10th level guys running from some 3rd level group for half a campaign because they just thought they must be as powerful as they were. It was cool when they finally decided to fight them and demolished them of course. But otherwise, yea I try the same thing. Sometimes fights are easy, sometimes even, sometimes too hard, just like real life. Always nice to kill someone off, let's 'em realize their mortality.