Iron Heroes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Iron Heroes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Eberik
02-03-06, 09:59 PM Has anyone else read into this book yet? I am really liking what I see in the way of skill use, groups, feat use and groups, not to mention stunts and challenges for them all. I really think this picks up the batton as it were for adding in the action for Eberron and I am working in the rules for use in my next campaign right now. Has anyone else thought or doing this in their game, anything I should keep an eye out for?
Just for note, I am not bringing in the classes, or the tokens.

Jym
alder_zeal
02-04-06, 12:49 AM The feat progression, and all the other flavor of iron heroes are omni important. The classes are designed for the book. Now the thing is that no magic in iron heroes. or very little. suggest you check out conversions. I suggest you look at Arcana Evolved for the magic side and be very careful about how you utilize these books. Iron heroes states there are no standard races because you choose traits. and apply them to your character. i suggest you look at the publisher's web site and post on the forums there.
Eberik
02-04-06, 03:00 AM Already am on their boards, and I know all about the whole no races and all, I have the book. And if you even bothered to see in my post, I want info on skill/feat groups, stunts, challnges and all. My question still remains, for those who have it and have read it.
I am well aware the game is more skill orientated, and Feat orientated, but I am looking for anything that would make for a pain in bringing it to Eberron because I think it captures the action and all that the normal rules fall short with, Action points alone to not make it all that much more dramatic in my opinion and I have been looking for a way to make it so, and so far I see IH as the best tool for this.

Jym
Lurkalot
02-04-06, 02:16 PM Hi,

If you look on the Iron Heroes boards, you'll see a post from me discussing this (under my name userid knasser). Iron Heroes fits with Eberron in many ways. The system is perfect for heroics and Indiana Jones stunts. The real potential of death also fits Eberron well.

But if you're looking for show-stoppers, I have one for you - Magic. The Iron Heroes classes are balanced to work without magic items, frequent spell buffs and heavy spell artillery. I'll dismiss the last one, because IH never really managed to deal with the absence mass-destruction spells and compensates by playing down monsters. Add back in the spells, add back in the beholders, et al. But the fact that (a) IH contains no [viable] magic using class and (b) the IH character classes would be very out of balance if they had access to magic items, then you have a problem. Because Eberron would not be Eberron without Magewites and common magic.

I did hit upon one rather radical solution that I believe will work, though I've yet to try it in practice. Ban magic item use for any character that isn't a magic user of some kind! It's pretty much that simple.

Just to be clear on that, classes such as Wizards, Sorcerors, Magewrites, et al, have "the Spark" and can wield those wands, rings, magical armours, etc. You might allow non-magic users to get away with charged items that don't require activation, such as those feather fall tokens in Sharn, but swords +3 are right out.

Now lets consider the consequences. Immediately the IH classes become balanced once again. Your Harrier can do his sword dance through the midst of the enemy warriors whilst the wizard chucks magic missiles about - not a problem. That same Harrier with a flaming longsword or a Ring of Invisibility would be a nightmare for the DM. Does this alter the setting in any radical way? Actually not so much... most people don't own any magic items and when they want something done, they just go to the magewright anyway. I actually quite like the way this sounds and it's my intention to at least try an Eberron campaign this way.

D&D classes will balance with IH classes if the D&D ones have access to magic boosters, but it doesn't make sense for a Fighter to be able to use a magic sword and a Man-At-Arms not to be able to when the concept for both classes is so similar. For a fighter-type that did use magic, I'd limit things to more magical classes, such as the Paladin or even better, the Mage Blade from Arcana Evolved. This latter class especially would make a good class for those with "the Gift" that channel it not into spells but into martial ability.

I'm not sure how spell-buffs will impact this, but I think I can live with them. Yes - you'll get some mighty warriors, but each buffed Man-At-Arms is one less lightening bolted enemy. Finger's crossed, it will balance out.

IH is also more geared to a lack of cleric support so this fits well with Eberron's holy-shortage.

There are three aspects I haven't quite resolved and I welcome suggestions from people. The first is multi-classing. If an IH warrior type takes a level in Wizard, what do I do? Can they henceforth pick up the Holy Avenger sword? I actually like the idea of multiclassing opening up magic item use because it adds another reason to fear those Valenar that I adore so much. I think what I'll do is remove the favoured class option for humans. I don't mind them getting access to magic items if they're forced to keep their magic using class up to a similar spec to their IH class. In IH you really want those class levels for the Mastery Feats.

The second issue I haven't resolved (and this is the first of the two big ones) is the race option. IH is basically human-focused. There are conversion rules for races on the IH boards, essentially creating background traits for each of the races. IH background traits are quite powerful, so I could go with this. The other option is to make demi-humans leval adjusted. I like this, as it does away with the artificial "all races are equal" balancing, but integrating it with the non-IH classes could be a headache. So I'll probably go with one of the background trait conversions,

The final issue that I really have yet to solve is party wealth. With some of the classes unable to use most magic items, half the party is going to have wealth piling up and half the party will want every last coin. There are some in-game ways of handling this, as well as giving out more of the treasure already in the form of items. It's still a potentially big problem.

These are my ideas, but like you, I'm also seeking suggestions on how to do this. IH and Eberron are like a perfect Hollywood movie romance. We can all see how perfect they are for each other, if we can just remove the absurd differences between them (like wedding a magic-everywhere campaign setting with an almost zero-magic rules system).

:)

EDIT: I've read your post a bit more closely and realised that you're not bringing in the classes or feats of IH. I'd say that without this, there's not much point in putting the work in, personally. If you really do want this, then the thing I'd watch out for is that IH has a different AC system. That suit of platemail doesn't make you harder to hit anymore, it gives you damage reduction. I haven't thought out all the consequences of this but I think you might have to consider it carefully. Especially when you introduce your first dragon. A beast like that is not going to be hard to hit, but will be a literal monster to bring down.
Wraith428
02-04-06, 09:44 PM I use a number of IH systems in my Eberron Age of Worms Campaign.

We use standard D&D classes and feats with:

IH Hit Point system (1d4+???)

IH Skill System (mechanics, skill challenges and skill groups. There are no class or cross class skills). I've found that the Knowledge skill in IH gets a little out of hand. By 7th level I got a character with just about every knowledge possible. In hindsight I'd go back to the way D&D works knowlege skills. Note that the use of the IH skill mechanics causes some problem with regular D&D. Track is no longer needed so Rangers need a new feet at 1st level. Many bard abilities are already covered in the perform skill, etc. I give D&D classes access to a number of skill groups equal to their base skill points per level divide by two. Fighters get access to one skill group, rouges get four. I base skill groups for each class on their class skills. Fighters get athletics, rangers get wilderness, perception and athletics.

IH attack/defense challenges & stunts. Been playing since 1st level. The players have used challenges about thirty or fourty times. Used stunts exactly 0. Everytime we think of using a stunt the mechanics feel clunky and you don't get enough bang for your buck. On the flip side monsters and opponents have found stunts and challenges quite benificial.

I used IH Traits as well but probably wouldn't again. I allowed humans two traits rather than a feat at 1st level and every other race got one trait. Unfortunately most players went for the stat boosts which didn't have a lot of flavor for me as DM.

That's my experience.

Wraith428
Lurkalot
02-05-06, 06:54 AM Wraith - thanks for those insights. I haven't "gone live" with IH yet, and I've clearly not paid enough attention to the differences in the skills. I particularly hadn't paid any attention to the revised Perform skill... Wow!

I've decided to go with background traits to represent races. I'm coming from a different angle to you in that I veyr much do want the IH classes in the game. It seems such a waste not to have those Harriers and Weapon Masters. But then I'm also using Arcana Evolved classes (some of them), like the Magister, mainly because I want AEv's lovely spell system. If you're human, you'll be entitled to two traits as normal, although I shall scrap the ability mod traits such as Dextrous and Resiliant Toughness. These will be replaced with Racial Traits (e.g. Elf and Dwarf). I'll make most of the racial traits doubles - e.g. it'lll use up both of your trait slots, except half-elf, which I think can have a single trait block. I like this because it abandons some of the artificial balancing between human and demi-humans without introducing level adjustments. You can be an elf or an exceptional human. I don't think it completely balances, I'll look at any fine-tuning I need for balance and re-post them here. I think the concept is sound though.

I think elves will definitely be a two-trait racial block, because I'm leaving them their favoured class: Wizard. Combining a level of Wizard / Magister with an IH class and not having to keep them in line will be a big plus with my magic restrictions.

Good idea with the skill groups - I'll be using that one for sure.
Tom McCarthy
02-06-06, 03:54 PM I rather like the idea of limiting magic item use to specific classes.

I might allow exceptions based on feats, rituals, or roleplaying requirements and only for specific items.

That could get very interesting, actually.

I always figured the challenges, stunts, and regions/areas (forget term) would work well, and the feat system that didn't have a feat tree was appealing (although a little voice told me there might be exploitable loopholes or broken bits).
mhacdebhandia
02-06-06, 07:47 PM Many of the elements of Iron Heroes first appeared in the Book of Iron Might, also by Mike Mearls but a "straight D&D" supplement rather than a full game. Stunts, for instance.

Ironically, for Eberron, it also contains a construct race - the ironborn. I also highly recommend the battlemind and arcane battle feats.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eberik 02-03-06, 09:59 PM	Has anyone else read into this book yet? I am really liking what I see in the way of skill use, groups, feat use and groups, not to mention stunts and challenges for them all. I really think this picks up the batton as it were for adding in the action for Eberron and I am working in the rules for use in my next campaign right now. Has anyone else thought or doing this in their game, anything I should keep an eye out for? Just for note, I am not bringing in the classes, or the tokens. Jym
alder_zeal 02-04-06, 12:49 AM	The feat progression, and all the other flavor of iron heroes are omni important. The classes are designed for the book. Now the thing is that no magic in iron heroes. or very little. suggest you check out conversions. I suggest you look at Arcana Evolved for the magic side and be very careful about how you utilize these books. Iron heroes states there are no standard races because you choose traits. and apply them to your character. i suggest you look at the publisher's web site and post on the forums there.
Eberik 02-04-06, 03:00 AM	Already am on their boards, and I know all about the whole no races and all, I have the book. And if you even bothered to see in my post, I want info on skill/feat groups, stunts, challnges and all. My question still remains, for those who have it and have read it. I am well aware the game is more skill orientated, and Feat orientated, but I am looking for anything that would make for a pain in bringing it to Eberron because I think it captures the action and all that the normal rules fall short with, Action points alone to not make it all that much more dramatic in my opinion and I have been looking for a way to make it so, and so far I see IH as the best tool for this. Jym
Lurkalot 02-04-06, 02:16 PM	Hi, If you look on the Iron Heroes boards, you'll see a post from me discussing this (under my name userid knasser). Iron Heroes fits with Eberron in many ways. The system is perfect for heroics and Indiana Jones stunts. The real potential of death also fits Eberron well. But if you're looking for show-stoppers, I have one for you - Magic. The Iron Heroes classes are balanced to work without magic items, frequent spell buffs and heavy spell artillery. I'll dismiss the last one, because IH never really managed to deal with the absence mass-destruction spells and compensates by playing down monsters. Add back in the spells, add back in the beholders, et al. But the fact that (a) IH contains no [viable] magic using class and (b) the IH character classes would be very out of balance if they had access to magic items, then you have a problem. Because Eberron would not be Eberron without Magewites and common magic. I did hit upon one rather radical solution that I believe will work, though I've yet to try it in practice. Ban magic item use for any character that isn't a magic user of some kind! It's pretty much that simple. Just to be clear on that, classes such as Wizards, Sorcerors, Magewrites, et al, have "the Spark" and can wield those wands, rings, magical armours, etc. You might allow non-magic users to get away with charged items that don't require activation, such as those feather fall tokens in Sharn, but swords +3 are right out. Now lets consider the consequences. Immediately the IH classes become balanced once again. Your Harrier can do his sword dance through the midst of the enemy warriors whilst the wizard chucks magic missiles about - not a problem. That same Harrier with a flaming longsword or a Ring of Invisibility would be a nightmare for the DM. Does this alter the setting in any radical way? Actually not so much... most people don't own any magic items and when they want something done, they just go to the magewright anyway. I actually quite like the way this sounds and it's my intention to at least try an Eberron campaign this way. D&D classes will balance with IH classes if the D&D ones have access to magic boosters, but it doesn't make sense for a Fighter to be able to use a magic sword and a Man-At-Arms not to be able to when the concept for both classes is so similar. For a fighter-type that did use magic, I'd limit things to more magical classes, such as the Paladin or even better, the Mage Blade from Arcana Evolved. This latter class especially would make a good class for those with "the Gift" that channel it not into spells but into martial ability. I'm not sure how spell-buffs will impact this, but I think I can live with them. Yes - you'll get some mighty warriors, but each buffed Man-At-Arms is one less lightening bolted enemy. Finger's crossed, it will balance out. IH is also more geared to a lack of cleric support so this fits well with Eberron's holy-shortage. There are three aspects I haven't quite resolved and I welcome suggestions from people. The first is multi-classing. If an IH warrior type takes a level in Wizard, what do I do? Can they henceforth pick up the Holy Avenger sword? I actually like the idea of multiclassing opening up magic item use because it adds another reason to fear those Valenar that I adore so much. I think what I'll do is remove the favoured class option for humans. I don't mind them getting access to magic items if they're forced to keep their magic using class up to a similar spec to their IH class. In IH you really want those class levels for the Mastery Feats. The second issue I haven't resolved (and this is the first of the two big ones) is the race option. IH is basically human-focused. There are conversion rules for races on the IH boards, essentially creating background traits for each of the races. IH background traits are quite powerful, so I could go with this. The other option is to make demi-humans leval adjusted. I like this, as it does away with the artificial "all races are equal" balancing, but integrating it with the non-IH classes could be a headache. So I'll probably go with one of the background trait conversions, The final issue that I really have yet to solve is party wealth. With some of the classes unable to use most magic items, half the party is going to have wealth piling up and half the party will want every last coin. There are some in-game ways of handling this, as well as giving out more of the treasure already in the form of items. It's still a potentially big problem. These are my ideas, but like you, I'm also seeking suggestions on how to do this. IH and Eberron are like a perfect Hollywood movie romance. We can all see how perfect they are for each other, if we can just remove the absurd differences between them (like wedding a magic-everywhere campaign setting with an almost zero-magic rules system). :) EDIT: I've read your post a bit more closely and realised that you're not bringing in the classes or feats of IH. I'd say that without this, there's not much point in putting the work in, personally. If you really do want this, then the thing I'd watch out for is that IH has a different AC system. That suit of platemail doesn't make you harder to hit anymore, it gives you damage reduction. I haven't thought out all the consequences of this but I think you might have to consider it carefully. Especially when you introduce your first dragon. A beast like that is not going to be hard to hit, but will be a literal monster to bring down.
Wraith428 02-04-06, 09:44 PM	I use a number of IH systems in my Eberron Age of Worms Campaign. We use standard D&D classes and feats with: IH Hit Point system (1d4+???) IH Skill System (mechanics, skill challenges and skill groups. There are no class or cross class skills). I've found that the Knowledge skill in IH gets a little out of hand. By 7th level I got a character with just about every knowledge possible. In hindsight I'd go back to the way D&D works knowlege skills. Note that the use of the IH skill mechanics causes some problem with regular D&D. Track is no longer needed so Rangers need a new feet at 1st level. Many bard abilities are already covered in the perform skill, etc. I give D&D classes access to a number of skill groups equal to their base skill points per level divide by two. Fighters get access to one skill group, rouges get four. I base skill groups for each class on their class skills. Fighters get athletics, rangers get wilderness, perception and athletics. IH attack/defense challenges & stunts. Been playing since 1st level. The players have used challenges about thirty or fourty times. Used stunts exactly 0. Everytime we think of using a stunt the mechanics feel clunky and you don't get enough bang for your buck. On the flip side monsters and opponents have found stunts and challenges quite benificial. I used IH Traits as well but probably wouldn't again. I allowed humans two traits rather than a feat at 1st level and every other race got one trait. Unfortunately most players went for the stat boosts which didn't have a lot of flavor for me as DM. That's my experience. Wraith428
Lurkalot 02-05-06, 06:54 AM	Wraith - thanks for those insights. I haven't "gone live" with IH yet, and I've clearly not paid enough attention to the differences in the skills. I particularly hadn't paid any attention to the revised Perform skill... Wow! I've decided to go with background traits to represent races. I'm coming from a different angle to you in that I veyr much do want the IH classes in the game. It seems such a waste not to have those Harriers and Weapon Masters. But then I'm also using Arcana Evolved classes (some of them), like the Magister, mainly because I want AEv's lovely spell system. If you're human, you'll be entitled to two traits as normal, although I shall scrap the ability mod traits such as Dextrous and Resiliant Toughness. These will be replaced with Racial Traits (e.g. Elf and Dwarf). I'll make most of the racial traits doubles - e.g. it'lll use up both of your trait slots, except half-elf, which I think can have a single trait block. I like this because it abandons some of the artificial balancing between human and demi-humans without introducing level adjustments. You can be an elf or an exceptional human. I don't think it completely balances, I'll look at any fine-tuning I need for balance and re-post them here. I think the concept is sound though. I think elves will definitely be a two-trait racial block, because I'm leaving them their favoured class: Wizard. Combining a level of Wizard / Magister with an IH class and not having to keep them in line will be a big plus with my magic restrictions. Good idea with the skill groups - I'll be using that one for sure.
Tom McCarthy 02-06-06, 03:54 PM	I rather like the idea of limiting magic item use to specific classes. I might allow exceptions based on feats, rituals, or roleplaying requirements and only for specific items. That could get very interesting, actually. I always figured the challenges, stunts, and regions/areas (forget term) would work well, and the feat system that didn't have a feat tree was appealing (although a little voice told me there might be exploitable loopholes or broken bits).
mhacdebhandia 02-06-06, 07:47 PM	Many of the elements of Iron Heroes first appeared in the Book of Iron Might, also by Mike Mearls but a "straight D&D" supplement rather than a full game. Stunts, for instance. Ironically, for Eberron, it also contains a construct race - the ironborn. I also highly recommend the battlemind and arcane battle feats.