Is alignment a problem for Eberron? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is alignment a problem for Eberron? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SJE
05-29-04, 05:27 PM The old D&D concept of alignment has begun to bother me more and more in recent years. As a kid you didnt notice it- you stuck down 'Chaotic Good' on yer character sheet because that meant you could do want you wanted, but you were still a good guy.

Then you grow up a bit and theories of moral relativism hit you- portrayals of sympathetic villains and acknoledgement that people dont always live up to their own ideals are part of the maturing process. While there is certainly a lot of evil out there in the world, very few people consider themselves evil.

Now I'm at the point where I think there is clearly Right & Wrong, but that human personalities are too complex to assign to 9 permenant categories. Some people do the right thing some of the time and the wrong at other times. Sometimes right after each other.

Yet alignment doesnt seem to capture the transitive nature of people's personalities, beliefs and actions. Yet if you take it out of D&D, huge swathes of the mechanics are invalidated (who does your Smite Evil work on?)

But will this be a specific problem for Eberron? As described its a Noir game. And the Noir genre is filled with moral relativism, a setting where sometimes it is impossible to tell the good people from the bad until the very end.

This doesnt seem compatible with 3.5, where a single spell tells you if a beautiful dame has a heart of gold, or one of ice.

Thoughts?

SJE
Azer Firelord
05-29-04, 05:33 PM The spell tells you her moral position at that moment in time Its not like its a permanent fixed thing.

Just out of interest, which spell is this? Maybe I'm dumb, but I think Know Alignment got axed in 3.5. Of course, the 4 Detects will do the same.

Alignment is not a very good tool for describing humans: they will tend to move categories like yo-yos, especially in Eberron's grey world.

But its essential for certain sorts of monster- the Rakshasa and Couatl are an important Eberronian case in Point.

In Eberron, just like in D&D generally, Good and Evil, Law and Chaos, are real forces that stalk the land and impact everyone's lives. Hey, some people belive that about real life too:angel:
SJE
05-29-04, 05:45 PM Except in D&D alignment is fixed into a long held set of moral beliefs. You cant generally switch alignments every 10 minutes, especially with class driven alignment features that require you to atone every time you do.
Azer Firelord
05-29-04, 05:49 PM Ok, maybe I was exaggerating there. I don't think you /have/ to play alignment that way: Your character should have a guiding set of values- this helps roleplaying. It can be one of the nine handy ones that Wotc thoughtfully put in the PHB. But it doesn't have to. And regardless of his set of values, his actual alignment will tend to vary quite a bit.

Of cours, if you have an ethos to follow, things are different and you need to stick to your ethos if you want to keep your special powers. The ethos, again, should not be exactly the same thing as your alignment, except in the broadest sense.

That is, I have made Paladins atone when they were still LG, because they broke the particular ethos of the Paladin- which only takes one act- while still being LG overall (a sum of many acts).

Just my thoughts.
Hellcow
05-29-04, 06:17 PM The role of alignment in Eberron is something that has been discussed in considerable detail in the past. If you want to see my thoughts, you can find them at Johnny O'Neal's Eberron site.I think it's a topic that can always benefit from more discussion -- unfortunately I'm under too much time pressure to actively participate at the moment.
Harmony's Sorrow
05-29-04, 06:25 PM Time pressure hellcow? Tell me they don't have you working on memorial weekend!

Didn't you tell us before Hellcow that the CSB has gone to print?
Hellcow
05-29-04, 06:47 PM Originally posted by Harmony's Sorrow
Time pressure hellcow? Tell me they don't have you working on memorial weekend!
Risk of being a freelancer. No one to blame but myself.
Didn't you tell us before Hellcow that the CSB has gone to print?
Yes, and it has. My work on the CSB was done long ago, though I was still involved during the editing period. I'm working on other projects at the moment.
Green Gilled Dragon
05-29-04, 08:37 PM I've never seen alignment as a problem for playing or directing character actions, and I'm glad Eberron has a more 'active' idea towards alignment. Infernal Cud-Chewer has been pretty good at saying how alignments should be a guideline for players, not a baseball bat to them.

For me, alignment is less "what you do every moment of your life", but more "what is the base line for your character."

Good: these people will take a few minutes out of their day to lend a hand or do something nice for people. They'll bring their boss a treat, but also try and bring one in for their subordinate once and a while.

Still, they can have bad days where the weight of the world makes them snapish and grumpy. Deep down they may believe in better things, but they may be worn down by the weight of all the troubles they face.

Neutral: These guys take the world as it comes, but really are directed towards the self. They're probably not likely to bring the boss a treat unless it was to suck up. Subordinates, probably not unless there was something in it for them. Money and time are better spent on making their own life more pleasant.

Still, they can be moved by personal experience and do have a heart, although it might be a bit more difficult to reach.

Evil: These people are in it for themselves and casualties don't matter, although getting your own hands dirty might not be for you. They'll bring treats to their boss, and maybe poison it (if really evil) or more likely pass on snide comments or rumors about their fellows in order to gain an advantage over them.

Evil can do 'good' things, as they have emotions, but it usually is somewhat selfish expressions of 'good.' ("The Keeper of the Flame has brought light and learning to her followers. I love the Keeper, and if exterminating these heratics will allow people the clarity to see the Keeper's greatness without confusion... what's the problem?")

Lawful: These people tend to have patterns and daily scheduals. They like conformity and consistancy. (Think of the lead female from the 80's movie "The Sure Thing." That was a Lawful character.)

Still, while not really confortable with being spontaneous, they can step out of their shell and act wild. They just step back into their comfortable world when they're done.

Chaos: They don't jump of bridges as soon as walk over them, but plans? Who needs plans? Take the world as it comes and deal with it as it happens. (Probably not too many chaotic bankers.)

Even so, they need a place to live and food. So making sure they have enough to eat by the end of the month is probably a good idea.

Each of these are the 'basics' of alignment, but within each a person can have an off day, or just suffer a crisis of faith.

So a good person can hit an innocent, and an evil person can be moved to give to charity.

Still... a good person is unlikely to make a habit out of hitting innocents, and an evil person is unlikely to make a real sacrific to help people.

A lawful person can suddenly quit their guild and try being an adventuerer, and a chaotic person could be so moved to ask to plan the king's corronation.

The lawful character might seriously wonder, "What the *&%$ am I doing?", and the chaotic planner might think a royal coach pulled by a hundred untrained monkeys would add a nice element of mystique to the party.

Give PCs and NPCs chances to be alive... but use alignment simply as a shorthand to build lives from. I found it works well.
Docrailgun
05-29-04, 10:51 PM Originally posted by Green Gilled Dragon
I've never seen alignment as a problem for playing or directing character actions, and I'm glad Eberron has a more 'active' idea towards alignment. Infernal Cud-Chewer has been pretty good at saying how alignments should be a guideline for players, not a baseball bat to them.

For me, alignment is less "what you do every moment of your life", but more "what is the base line for your character."

Good: these people will take a few minutes out of their day to lend a hand or do something nice for people. They'll bring their boss a treat, but also try and bring one in for their subordinate once and a while.

Still, they can have bad days where the weight of the world makes them snapish and grumpy. Deep down they may believe in better things, but they may be worn down by the weight of all the troubles they face.

Neutral: These guys take the world as it comes, but really are directed towards the self. They're probably not likely to bring the boss a treat unless it was to suck up. Subordinates, probably not unless there was something in it for them. Money and time are better spent on making their own life more pleasant.

Still, they can be moved by personal experience and do have a heart, although it might be a bit more difficult to reach.

Evil: These people are in it for themselves and casualties don't matter, although getting your own hands dirty might not be for you. They'll bring treats to their boss, and maybe poison it (if really evil) or more likely pass on snide comments or rumors about their fellows in order to gain an advantage over them.

Evil can do 'good' things, as they have emotions, but it usually is somewhat selfish expressions of 'good.' ("The Keeper of the Flame has brought light and learning to her followers. I love the Keeper, and if exterminating these heratics will allow people the clarity to see the Keeper's greatness without confusion... what's the problem?")

Lawful: These people tend to have patterns and daily scheduals. They like conformity and consistancy. (Think of the lead female from the 80's movie "The Sure Thing." That was a Lawful character.)

Still, while not really confortable with being spontaneous, they can step out of their shell and act wild. They just step back into their comfortable world when they're done.

Chaos: They don't jump of bridges as soon as walk over them, but plans? Who needs plans? Take the world as it comes and deal with it as it happens. (Probably not too many chaotic bankers.)

Even so, they need a place to live and food. So making sure they have enough to eat by the end of the month is probably a good idea.

Each of these are the 'basics' of alignment, but within each a person can have an off day, or just suffer a crisis of faith.

So a good person can hit an innocent, and an evil person can be moved to give to charity.

Still... a good person is unlikely to make a habit out of hitting innocents, and an evil person is unlikely to make a real sacrific to help people.

A lawful person can suddenly quit their guild and try being an adventuerer, and a chaotic person could be so moved to ask to plan the king's corronation.

The lawful character might seriously wonder, "What the *&%$ am I doing?", and the chaotic planner might think a royal coach pulled by a hundred untrained monkeys would add a nice element of mystique to the party.

Give PCs and NPCs chances to be alive... but use alignment simply as a shorthand to build lives from. I found it works well.
Green Gilled Dragon
05-30-04, 12:22 AM Not that I don't like to see people slavishly following my examples... ;) but Docrailgun? What was your point for copying my examples?
stone_dog
05-30-04, 04:49 PM Next time you are at your FLGS, check out Swashbuckling adventures by Alderac entertainment Group. There is an Inquisitor class in there that just might make for an interesting evil NPC devoted to the Silver Flame.
Ch@pel
06-01-04, 12:08 AM I tend to think of alignment as what my character was like BEFORE I started playing (you do choose alignment upon character creation, so it makes sense). It represents basically what this person is like, based on the background info you've created.

Once you start playing though, anything goes, and you're free to act however you want. However the DM may say that certain actions, specifically repeated actions, may deviate from that original concept so much that a new alignment is needed.

Just my opinion.
Yamael
06-01-04, 06:54 AM I pretty much licked how alignment was handled in Neverwinter Nights, so I use more or less the same system.

Each character is given a Law-Chaos axis and a Good-Evil axis, with alignement points ranging from 0 to 100 in each. Each axis is divided in three sections at 33 and 67 like this:

0
|
| Chaos / Evil
|
-33
|
| Neutrality
|
-67
|
| Law / Good
|
100

Characters start in the center of the region for their chosen alignment (a Paladin would be at 84 in both the Law/Chaos and the Good/Evil axis for example) and depending on their actions I award them points in either axis so the character can see he is steering from the chosen path. If a character gains or loses enough points to move into another region, his alignement changes to that of that region, which may result in the loss of class habilities. In that case, the character must first return to his former alignment and then atone.
Moonlion
06-01-04, 08:21 PM I could do without alignments altogether. Feh.
N'wah
06-02-04, 11:05 PM On the topic of alignment detection...

It's kind of rude to cast a divination spell on someone you just met. I mean, sure, if the PCs are Sharn's equivalent of gumshoes, it may be expected that they check out prospective employers, which may involve an alignment once-over or some other sort of divination "background check", but misdirection is only a 2nd-level spell, and it lasts three hours minimum, depending on what arcane class you are. So it's not too hard to imagine a key NPC using that spell to hide that they're evil to the core.

But if someone runs up to the Paladin on the street corner and explains that their brother was just kidnapped and dragged into the spooky abandoned building around the corner, he's probably not going to spend a few rounds to use detect good on them. At least, unless he's really paranoid.

Also, most spellcasters will only use one of the detect alignment variations. Just because he checks out as "not evil" doesn't say much. He may stab you in the back, but he probably won't poison the blade, too.

But that's just me.
Azer Firelord
06-02-04, 11:27 PM Well, actually Hellcow has talked about this from another angle.

Detecting someone is evil does not mean you have the right to arrest them, even if you are a Paladin. It doesn't even necesssarily mean that they are a threat to you. In fact, it is pretty useless (almost). As well as, certainly in my campaign, extremely rude.

In fact one of my Pcs has recently become very paranoid (its entirely his own fault that everyone is out to get him, mind). He has a priest follower whose sole job is to max-memorise detect evils and cast them on the player's paladin guards each morning!

The irony is, the player is himself evil, and the paladins are guarding him for more than one reason.:smirk:

Anyway, besides that interlude- my point is had he detected someone as evil, he wouldn't have been right to conclude they were definitely an enemy. In the morally grey world of Ebberon, that is doubly true.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SJE 05-29-04, 05:27 PM	The old D&D concept of alignment has begun to bother me more and more in recent years. As a kid you didnt notice it- you stuck down 'Chaotic Good' on yer character sheet because that meant you could do want you wanted, but you were still a good guy. Then you grow up a bit and theories of moral relativism hit you- portrayals of sympathetic villains and acknoledgement that people dont always live up to their own ideals are part of the maturing process. While there is certainly a lot of evil out there in the world, very few people consider themselves evil. Now I'm at the point where I think there is clearly Right & Wrong, but that human personalities are too complex to assign to 9 permenant categories. Some people do the right thing some of the time and the wrong at other times. Sometimes right after each other. Yet alignment doesnt seem to capture the transitive nature of people's personalities, beliefs and actions. Yet if you take it out of D&D, huge swathes of the mechanics are invalidated (who does your Smite Evil work on?) But will this be a specific problem for Eberron? As described its a Noir game. And the Noir genre is filled with moral relativism, a setting where sometimes it is impossible to tell the good people from the bad until the very end. This doesnt seem compatible with 3.5, where a single spell tells you if a beautiful dame has a heart of gold, or one of ice. Thoughts? SJE
Azer Firelord 05-29-04, 05:33 PM	The spell tells you her moral position at that moment in time Its not like its a permanent fixed thing. Just out of interest, which spell is this? Maybe I'm dumb, but I think Know Alignment got axed in 3.5. Of course, the 4 Detects will do the same. Alignment is not a very good tool for describing humans: they will tend to move categories like yo-yos, especially in Eberron's grey world. But its essential for certain sorts of monster- the Rakshasa and Couatl are an important Eberronian case in Point. In Eberron, just like in D&D generally, Good and Evil, Law and Chaos, are real forces that stalk the land and impact everyone's lives. Hey, some people belive that about real life too:angel:
SJE 05-29-04, 05:45 PM	Except in D&D alignment is fixed into a long held set of moral beliefs. You cant generally switch alignments every 10 minutes, especially with class driven alignment features that require you to atone every time you do.
Azer Firelord 05-29-04, 05:49 PM	Ok, maybe I was exaggerating there. I don't think you /have/ to play alignment that way: Your character should have a guiding set of values- this helps roleplaying. It can be one of the nine handy ones that Wotc thoughtfully put in the PHB. But it doesn't have to. And regardless of his set of values, his actual alignment will tend to vary quite a bit. Of cours, if you have an ethos to follow, things are different and you need to stick to your ethos if you want to keep your special powers. The ethos, again, should not be exactly the same thing as your alignment, except in the broadest sense. That is, I have made Paladins atone when they were still LG, because they broke the particular ethos of the Paladin- which only takes one act- while still being LG overall (a sum of many acts). Just my thoughts.
Hellcow 05-29-04, 06:17 PM	The role of alignment in Eberron is something that has been discussed in considerable detail in the past. If you want to see my thoughts, you can find them at Johnny O'Neal's Eberron site.I think it's a topic that can always benefit from more discussion -- unfortunately I'm under too much time pressure to actively participate at the moment.
Harmony's Sorrow 05-29-04, 06:25 PM	Time pressure hellcow? Tell me they don't have you working on memorial weekend! Didn't you tell us before Hellcow that the CSB has gone to print?
Hellcow 05-29-04, 06:47 PM	Originally posted by Harmony's Sorrow Time pressure hellcow? Tell me they don't have you working on memorial weekend! Risk of being a freelancer. No one to blame but myself. Didn't you tell us before Hellcow that the CSB has gone to print? Yes, and it has. My work on the CSB was done long ago, though I was still involved during the editing period. I'm working on other projects at the moment.
Green Gilled Dragon 05-29-04, 08:37 PM	I've never seen alignment as a problem for playing or directing character actions, and I'm glad Eberron has a more 'active' idea towards alignment. Infernal Cud-Chewer has been pretty good at saying how alignments should be a guideline for players, not a baseball bat to them. For me, alignment is less "what you do every moment of your life", but more "what is the base line for your character." Good: these people will take a few minutes out of their day to lend a hand or do something nice for people. They'll bring their boss a treat, but also try and bring one in for their subordinate once and a while. Still, they can have bad days where the weight of the world makes them snapish and grumpy. Deep down they may believe in better things, but they may be worn down by the weight of all the troubles they face. Neutral: These guys take the world as it comes, but really are directed towards the self. They're probably not likely to bring the boss a treat unless it was to suck up. Subordinates, probably not unless there was something in it for them. Money and time are better spent on making their own life more pleasant. Still, they can be moved by personal experience and do have a heart, although it might be a bit more difficult to reach. Evil: These people are in it for themselves and casualties don't matter, although getting your own hands dirty might not be for you. They'll bring treats to their boss, and maybe poison it (if really evil) or more likely pass on snide comments or rumors about their fellows in order to gain an advantage over them. Evil can do 'good' things, as they have emotions, but it usually is somewhat selfish expressions of 'good.' ("The Keeper of the Flame has brought light and learning to her followers. I love the Keeper, and if exterminating these heratics will allow people the clarity to see the Keeper's greatness without confusion... what's the problem?") Lawful: These people tend to have patterns and daily scheduals. They like conformity and consistancy. (Think of the lead female from the 80's movie "The Sure Thing." That was a Lawful character.) Still, while not really confortable with being spontaneous, they can step out of their shell and act wild. They just step back into their comfortable world when they're done. Chaos: They don't jump of bridges as soon as walk over them, but plans? Who needs plans? Take the world as it comes and deal with it as it happens. (Probably not too many chaotic bankers.) Even so, they need a place to live and food. So making sure they have enough to eat by the end of the month is probably a good idea. Each of these are the 'basics' of alignment, but within each a person can have an off day, or just suffer a crisis of faith. So a good person can hit an innocent, and an evil person can be moved to give to charity. Still... a good person is unlikely to make a habit out of hitting innocents, and an evil person is unlikely to make a real sacrific to help people. A lawful person can suddenly quit their guild and try being an adventuerer, and a chaotic person could be so moved to ask to plan the king's corronation. The lawful character might seriously wonder, "What the *&%$ am I doing?", and the chaotic planner might think a royal coach pulled by a hundred untrained monkeys would add a nice element of mystique to the party. Give PCs and NPCs chances to be alive... but use alignment simply as a shorthand to build lives from. I found it works well.
Docrailgun 05-29-04, 10:51 PM	Originally posted by Green Gilled Dragon I've never seen alignment as a problem for playing or directing character actions, and I'm glad Eberron has a more 'active' idea towards alignment. Infernal Cud-Chewer has been pretty good at saying how alignments should be a guideline for players, not a baseball bat to them. For me, alignment is less "what you do every moment of your life", but more "what is the base line for your character." Good: these people will take a few minutes out of their day to lend a hand or do something nice for people. They'll bring their boss a treat, but also try and bring one in for their subordinate once and a while. Still, they can have bad days where the weight of the world makes them snapish and grumpy. Deep down they may believe in better things, but they may be worn down by the weight of all the troubles they face. Neutral: These guys take the world as it comes, but really are directed towards the self. They're probably not likely to bring the boss a treat unless it was to suck up. Subordinates, probably not unless there was something in it for them. Money and time are better spent on making their own life more pleasant. Still, they can be moved by personal experience and do have a heart, although it might be a bit more difficult to reach. Evil: These people are in it for themselves and casualties don't matter, although getting your own hands dirty might not be for you. They'll bring treats to their boss, and maybe poison it (if really evil) or more likely pass on snide comments or rumors about their fellows in order to gain an advantage over them. Evil can do 'good' things, as they have emotions, but it usually is somewhat selfish expressions of 'good.' ("The Keeper of the Flame has brought light and learning to her followers. I love the Keeper, and if exterminating these heratics will allow people the clarity to see the Keeper's greatness without confusion... what's the problem?") Lawful: These people tend to have patterns and daily scheduals. They like conformity and consistancy. (Think of the lead female from the 80's movie "The Sure Thing." That was a Lawful character.) Still, while not really confortable with being spontaneous, they can step out of their shell and act wild. They just step back into their comfortable world when they're done. Chaos: They don't jump of bridges as soon as walk over them, but plans? Who needs plans? Take the world as it comes and deal with it as it happens. (Probably not too many chaotic bankers.) Even so, they need a place to live and food. So making sure they have enough to eat by the end of the month is probably a good idea. Each of these are the 'basics' of alignment, but within each a person can have an off day, or just suffer a crisis of faith. So a good person can hit an innocent, and an evil person can be moved to give to charity. Still... a good person is unlikely to make a habit out of hitting innocents, and an evil person is unlikely to make a real sacrific to help people. A lawful person can suddenly quit their guild and try being an adventuerer, and a chaotic person could be so moved to ask to plan the king's corronation. The lawful character might seriously wonder, "What the *&%$ am I doing?", and the chaotic planner might think a royal coach pulled by a hundred untrained monkeys would add a nice element of mystique to the party. Give PCs and NPCs chances to be alive... but use alignment simply as a shorthand to build lives from. I found it works well.
Green Gilled Dragon 05-30-04, 12:22 AM	Not that I don't like to see people slavishly following my examples... ;) but Docrailgun? What was your point for copying my examples?
stone_dog 05-30-04, 04:49 PM	Next time you are at your FLGS, check out Swashbuckling adventures by Alderac entertainment Group. There is an Inquisitor class in there that just might make for an interesting evil NPC devoted to the Silver Flame.
Ch@pel 06-01-04, 12:08 AM	I tend to think of alignment as what my character was like BEFORE I started playing (you do choose alignment upon character creation, so it makes sense). It represents basically what this person is like, based on the background info you've created. Once you start playing though, anything goes, and you're free to act however you want. However the DM may say that certain actions, specifically repeated actions, may deviate from that original concept so much that a new alignment is needed. Just my opinion.
Yamael 06-01-04, 06:54 AM	I pretty much licked how alignment was handled in Neverwinter Nights, so I use more or less the same system. Each character is given a Law-Chaos axis and a Good-Evil axis, with alignement points ranging from 0 to 100 in each. Each axis is divided in three sections at 33 and 67 like this: 0 \| \| Chaos / Evil \| -33 \| \| Neutrality \| -67 \| \| Law / Good \| 100 Characters start in the center of the region for their chosen alignment (a Paladin would be at 84 in both the Law/Chaos and the Good/Evil axis for example) and depending on their actions I award them points in either axis so the character can see he is steering from the chosen path. If a character gains or loses enough points to move into another region, his alignement changes to that of that region, which may result in the loss of class habilities. In that case, the character must first return to his former alignment and then atone.
Moonlion 06-01-04, 08:21 PM	I could do without alignments altogether. Feh.
N'wah 06-02-04, 11:05 PM	On the topic of alignment detection... It's kind of rude to cast a divination spell on someone you just met. I mean, sure, if the PCs are Sharn's equivalent of gumshoes, it may be expected that they check out prospective employers, which may involve an alignment once-over or some other sort of divination "background check", but misdirection is only a 2nd-level spell, and it lasts three hours minimum, depending on what arcane class you are. So it's not too hard to imagine a key NPC using that spell to hide that they're evil to the core. But if someone runs up to the Paladin on the street corner and explains that their brother was just kidnapped and dragged into the spooky abandoned building around the corner, he's probably not going to spend a few rounds to use detect good on them. At least, unless he's really paranoid. Also, most spellcasters will only use one of the detect alignment variations. Just because he checks out as "not evil" doesn't say much. He may stab you in the back, but he probably won't poison the blade, too. But that's just me.
Azer Firelord 06-02-04, 11:27 PM	Well, actually Hellcow has talked about this from another angle. Detecting someone is evil does not mean you have the right to arrest them, even if you are a Paladin. It doesn't even necesssarily mean that they are a threat to you. In fact, it is pretty useless (almost). As well as, certainly in my campaign, extremely rude. In fact one of my Pcs has recently become very paranoid (its entirely his own fault that everyone is out to get him, mind). He has a priest follower whose sole job is to max-memorise detect evils and cast them on the player's paladin guards each morning! The irony is, the player is himself evil, and the paladins are guarding him for more than one reason.:smirk: Anyway, besides that interlude- my point is had he detected someone as evil, he wouldn't have been right to conclude they were definitely an enemy. In the morally grey world of Ebberon, that is doubly true.