Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ThatOneMonk 05-05-05, 03:16 PM	I'm... I'm just baffled. My player rolled stats with the intention of being a kalashtar monk. I just... argh. I don't know... here's the conversation...the blue is me... This Isnt Not JT: oh noes! The Samurai Haro: and I decided to totally change my character! The Samurai Haro: weeeeee This Isnt Not JT: yay! The Samurai Haro: new race class and everythingness This Isnt Not JT: what is it now? The Samurai Haro: Warforgde Fighter This Isnt Not JT: the reason i want people to write pasts is so they become attached to the character This Isnt Not JT: ok The Samurai Haro: He is an elite from the Last War but now has nothing to do so just wanders The Samurai Haro: I just need a cooool name like This Isnt Not JT: what do you mean just wanders? The Samurai Haro: that is not Destructor like my first instinct The Samurai Haro: he just goes from place to place looking for some where he can live a normal peaceful life The Samurai Haro: but he is so use to war that he doesn't know how to do anything but fight This Isnt Not JT: grrr This Isnt Not JT: as long as he is prone to adventure The Samurai Haro: yeah This Isnt Not JT: guess what today is The Samurai Haro: it is like being back at the war The Samurai Haro: your mom day This Isnt Not JT: 5-5-5 The Samurai Haro: i dunno The Samurai Haro: oh yeah The Samurai Haro: it was in theory senior skip day The Samurai Haro: but no one really skipped The Samurai Haro: almost everyone was there This Isnt Not JT: because its dumb This Isnt Not JT: where's he from? This Isnt Not JT: cyre? The Samurai Haro: Cyre The Samurai Haro: yeah This Isnt Not JT: p*** This Isnt Not JT: ok The Samurai Haro: why am I a p*** now This Isnt Not JT: because your other character was cooler The Samurai Haro: yeah but my rolls just didn't work The Samurai Haro: they where to weighted This Isnt Not JT: horse*** The Samurai Haro: you have to make a character around your rolls not the other way aroung This Isnt Not JT: that horse is ****ing This Isnt Not JT: those were monk stats! The Samurai Haro: and 16, 16, 12, 12, 12, 8 The Samurai Haro: is weighted This Isnt Not JT: so? This Isnt Not JT: that work This Isnt Not JT: s The Samurai Haro: not really This Isnt Not JT: strength 16, dex 12, con 12, int 12, wis, 16, cha 8 The Samurai Haro: eerrrrrr yeah The Samurai Haro: that monk would suck This Isnt Not JT: whatev The Samurai Haro: something like This Isnt Not JT: you can do what you want The Samurai Haro: 14, 13, 13, 10, 15, 10 The Samurai Haro: is monk stats This Isnt Not JT: thats not any better This Isnt Not JT: at all The Samurai Haro: no it is definatly more balanced This Isnt Not JT: thats worse! The Samurai Haro: not huge stats against weak ones The Samurai Haro: I can balace out strength dex and con This Isnt Not JT: +3's to +2's? The Samurai Haro: I don't need +3's This Isnt Not JT: and keep +1's? This Isnt Not JT: it doesn't matter at all This Isnt Not JT: you are out of your mind The Samurai Haro: what ever dayne agrees with me The Samurai Haro: he knows my stats are weighted This Isnt Not JT: i dont understand how worse stats make a better monk The Samurai Haro: you just are want my Kalashtar character really bad for some reason This Isnt Not JT: but theyre weighted in your favor This Isnt Not JT: no This Isnt Not JT: yer being silly The Samurai Haro: monks want rounded stats The Samurai Haro: you are being silly This Isnt Not JT: but if they can get a few that are better, why not? The Samurai Haro: monks are like rogues they have three needed stats The Samurai Haro: and no super dump area This Isnt Not JT: the do not need cha This Isnt Not JT: *they This Isnt Not JT: at all The Samurai Haro: no they don't need it directly The Samurai Haro: but cha always helps This Isnt Not JT: it helps anybody! This Isnt Not JT: thats the point This Isnt Not JT: the only thing they need int for is skills This Isnt Not JT: and you could say that about anyone The Samurai Haro: which are important The Samurai Haro: they are more important for monks than normal This Isnt Not JT: why The Samurai Haro: because you their support role The Samurai Haro: jump, climb, balance, tumble, all help This Isnt Not JT: they help everyone This Isnt Not JT: plus they get more than fighters to make up for that The Samurai Haro: yeah but if you have a low int then it doesn't matter how big your class modifer is This Isnt Not JT: fighters tend to have low int anyways This Isnt Not JT: heres what your telling me "My monks stats are too unbalanced. If i make them worse, then they are better" This Isnt Not JT: i dont udnerstand that The Samurai Haro: true but they really don't need skills The Samurai Haro: they are better The Samurai Haro: because they are roung This Isnt Not JT: they need jump and all that just as much as monks The Samurai Haro: the modifiers don't matter if i cover up the weakness This Isnt Not JT: but theyre WORSE! The Samurai Haro: uhg The Samurai Haro: nevermind This Isnt Not JT: you only got rid of one weakness This Isnt Not JT: and barely The Samurai Haro: i don't understand why this is a big deal to you The Samurai Haro: I don The Samurai Haro: ' The Samurai Haro: t This Isnt Not JT: because youre being a dumb*** The Samurai Haro: suuure This Isnt Not JT: its so silly This Isnt Not JT: this is so going on the wizards boards So, what's the deal? Is it really better to have worse but more balanced stats for a monk? blah... I'm done...
Charles Phipps 05-05-05, 03:23 PM	Actually, I hate to say it but you come off worse. Let the poor guy play what he wants.
ThatOneMonk 05-05-05, 03:27 PM	he can play what he wants! Im just talking about the concept of a monk being better with lower, but more balanced stats.
Uglak 05-05-05, 03:38 PM	I'm... I'm just baffled. My player rolled stats with the intention of being a kalashtar monk. I just... argh. I don't know... here's the conversation...the blue is me... This Isnt Not JT: oh noes! The Samurai Haro: and I decided to totally change my character! The Samurai Haro: weeeeee This Isnt Not JT: yay! The Samurai Haro: new race class and everythingness This Isnt Not JT: what is it now? The Samurai Haro: Warforgde Fighter This Isnt Not JT: the reason i want people to write pasts is so they become attached to the character This Isnt Not JT: ok The Samurai Haro: He is an elite from the Last War but now has nothing to do so just wanders The Samurai Haro: I just need a cooool name like This Isnt Not JT: what do you mean just wanders? The Samurai Haro: that is not Destructor like my first instinct The Samurai Haro: he just goes from place to place looking for some where he can live a normal peaceful life The Samurai Haro: but he is so use to war that he doesn't know how to do anything but fight This Isnt Not JT: grrr This Isnt Not JT: as long as he is prone to adventure The Samurai Haro: yeah This Isnt Not JT: guess what today is The Samurai Haro: it is like being back at the war The Samurai Haro: your mom day This Isnt Not JT: 5-5-5 The Samurai Haro: i dunno The Samurai Haro: oh yeah The Samurai Haro: it was in theory senior skip day The Samurai Haro: but no one really skipped The Samurai Haro: almost everyone was there This Isnt Not JT: because its dumb This Isnt Not JT: where's he from? This Isnt Not JT: cyre? The Samurai Haro: Cyre The Samurai Haro: yeah This Isnt Not JT: p*** This Isnt Not JT: ok The Samurai Haro: why am I a p*** now This Isnt Not JT: because your other character was cooler The Samurai Haro: yeah but my rolls just didn't work The Samurai Haro: they where to weighted This Isnt Not JT: horse*** The Samurai Haro: you have to make a character around your rolls not the other way aroung This Isnt Not JT: that horse is ****ing This Isnt Not JT: those were monk stats! The Samurai Haro: and 16, 16, 12, 12, 12, 8 The Samurai Haro: is weighted This Isnt Not JT: so? This Isnt Not JT: that work This Isnt Not JT: s The Samurai Haro: not really This Isnt Not JT: strength 16, dex 12, con 12, int 12, wis, 16, cha 8 The Samurai Haro: eerrrrrr yeah The Samurai Haro: that monk would suck This Isnt Not JT: whatev The Samurai Haro: something like This Isnt Not JT: you can do what you want The Samurai Haro: 14, 13, 13, 10, 15, 10 The Samurai Haro: is monk stats This Isnt Not JT: thats not any better This Isnt Not JT: at all The Samurai Haro: no it is definatly more balanced This Isnt Not JT: thats worse! The Samurai Haro: not huge stats against weak ones The Samurai Haro: I can balace out strength dex and con This Isnt Not JT: +3's to +2's? The Samurai Haro: I don't need +3's This Isnt Not JT: and keep +1's? This Isnt Not JT: it doesn't matter at all This Isnt Not JT: you are out of your mind The Samurai Haro: what ever dayne agrees with me The Samurai Haro: he knows my stats are weighted This Isnt Not JT: i dont understand how worse stats make a better monk The Samurai Haro: you just are want my Kalashtar character really bad for some reason This Isnt Not JT: but theyre weighted in your favor This Isnt Not JT: no This Isnt Not JT: yer being silly The Samurai Haro: monks want rounded stats The Samurai Haro: you are being silly This Isnt Not JT: but if they can get a few that are better, why not? The Samurai Haro: monks are like rogues they have three needed stats The Samurai Haro: and no super dump area This Isnt Not JT: the do not need cha This Isnt Not JT: *they This Isnt Not JT: at all The Samurai Haro: no they don't need it directly The Samurai Haro: but cha always helps This Isnt Not JT: it helps anybody! This Isnt Not JT: thats the point This Isnt Not JT: the only thing they need int for is skills This Isnt Not JT: and you could say that about anyone The Samurai Haro: which are important The Samurai Haro: they are more important for monks than normal This Isnt Not JT: why The Samurai Haro: because you their support role The Samurai Haro: jump, climb, balance, tumble, all help This Isnt Not JT: they help everyone This Isnt Not JT: plus they get more than fighters to make up for that The Samurai Haro: yeah but if you have a low int then it doesn't matter how big your class modifer is This Isnt Not JT: fighters tend to have low int anyways This Isnt Not JT: heres what your telling me "My monks stats are too unbalanced. If i make them worse, then they are better" This Isnt Not JT: i dont udnerstand that The Samurai Haro: true but they really don't need skills The Samurai Haro: they are better The Samurai Haro: because they are roung This Isnt Not JT: they need jump and all that just as much as monks The Samurai Haro: the modifiers don't matter if i cover up the weakness This Isnt Not JT: but theyre WORSE! The Samurai Haro: uhg The Samurai Haro: nevermind This Isnt Not JT: you only got rid of one weakness This Isnt Not JT: and barely The Samurai Haro: i don't understand why this is a big deal to you The Samurai Haro: I don The Samurai Haro: ' The Samurai Haro: t This Isnt Not JT: because youre being a dumb*** The Samurai Haro: suuure This Isnt Not JT: its so silly This Isnt Not JT: this is so going on the wizards boards So, what's the deal? Is it really better to have worse but more balanced stats for a monk? blah... I'm done... You're a total jerk. I'm glad I'm not in your campaign.
Gishsarath 05-05-05, 03:41 PM	Calling your players names because they refuse to play the concept that you think is "cool" or "better" is generally not very cool. As for the actual topic: I think it is important for character concepts to built only AFTER stats are rolled. That way, you know what numbers you have to work with. Either that, or switch to the point-buy system ... which is more balanced in many ways. And for the record, your player is right. Monks are better (and more effective) when they have more balanced stats. They are all about moderation, remember?
Bluebrush 05-05-05, 03:44 PM	I could make a decent monk with them statistics. But let him go with what he likes. If you'd prefer the monk character, mention that. If you had plot plans based on having a monk, mention that too without going into specifics. After one "Aw, go on" let the issue drop. The life of a DM is sometimes tricky, but this you can deal with.
ThatOneMonk 05-05-05, 03:56 PM	darn it. alright, Ill apologize to my player then. That's the reason i wanted to know. It is me. The cursing is just something we do just because. Sorry if I offended anyone.
madteuton 05-05-05, 04:01 PM	You're a total jerk. I'm glad I'm not in your campaign. Wow, I can't believe you quoted that entire exchange for *this* comment. hehe
Charles Phipps 05-05-05, 04:08 PM	It doesn't matter really whether a character's stats are better or not. Maybe he thinks that it better reflects his character (perfection in all areas) type deal
Bard06 05-05-05, 04:16 PM	I'l I have to say is that he didnt want to feel that he was cheating by having good ability scores. I try to kinda do that when i make a character but it never works out that well. :D
Kid SixXx 05-05-05, 04:26 PM	Chalk up another one for the unreasonable DM column. I know you listed your proposal in the "Am I An Evil GM" thread, so I'm assuming that your player is drafting the character for that particular campaign. If you guys were arguing about whether or not he should be a spellcaster or a psion vs. a melee, I'd argue in your favor, as only you know what classes are in the final party, and should nudge the player to adopt the class that will best compliment the party's established makeup. A WF Fighter with "balanced stats" will not balance a party in which the other players also drafted melee types. He wouldn't realize this, as you're keeping the party roster a secret, so you'd have to hint your reasons without giving away your campaign. Since you're arguing melee vs. melee, then I have to go with the folks who argue that you're being overly difficult.
Naudachu 05-05-05, 04:48 PM	The argument aside, I'm impressed you laid it all out there and honestly looked for an opinion. Many people would have colored the conversation to make themselves look better. As for the question, I think its all a matter of personal taste. I can understand the frustration with having a character change his concept after you've already fit it into the story. But its much worse when they do it mid-campaign, so you can at least feel lucky that its out now.
Edymnion 05-05-05, 05:06 PM	And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why God invented point buy...
SirLoin 05-05-05, 05:19 PM	And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why God invented point buy... Darn. There goes my theory about it being invented by a rabbit who made a wrong turn at Albaquerque.
Gurv 05-05-05, 07:53 PM	Darn. There goes my theory about it being invented by a rabbit who made a wrong turn at Albaquerque. No, no...it still works. Where do you think God got the idea? I'm with Edy on this. Point buy. Even if you give more than the normal amount of points, it will make sure that everyone got the same opportunities as anyone else, and allow them to have a high stat in whatever they can afford to. I DM a monk with straight 14s.
Mandarbgrim 05-05-05, 08:52 PM	I don't really see how he is being a jerk to the player..I joke around like that with friends all the time. And they do really innane things that I make fun of them for..unfortunately I tend to do even stupider stuff..so..yeah... I think I would agree that he should have went with a monk with those stats and he didn't know what the other players were playing.. A few ranks in Diplomacy fixs the Charisma problem. Point Buy does make playing the character concept the player plans out ahead of time a lot easier, though. A group I played with rolled for their stats..and then converted it into point buy..and then made their character from those points. You could let him do something like that...although he will probably end up more powerful.
KP91 05-05-05, 09:02 PM	Well I like point buy but it doesn't work well for multiclass characters or artificers.
Wrathamon 05-05-05, 10:30 PM	man I am glad I am not in your game... but I would love to have that guy as a player :) Monks are better off if they are balanced or have super high stats. You can get away with Dex and Wis but that is pretty much just for AC reasons
Edymnion 05-05-05, 11:11 PM	Well I like point buy but it doesn't work well for multiclass characters or artificers.Ha, try doing a Warforged Paladin on point buy :P
ThatOneMonk 05-05-05, 11:43 PM	man, i just wanted to know if i was wrong or not, now i just feel like a total jerk. I even bought the player an apology soda... he seemed to like like, and he didn't rub it in... :(
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 05-06-05, 12:32 AM	First off, there is not a single class in the game that doesn't in some way benefit from high stats. An "unbalanced" monk may excel in a certain area, but excelling in one way does not diminish the strength of other abilities. Monks, however, still need a high Dex for acrobatic skills, and a monk with Str 12 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 16 Cha 8 would be a pretty good monk, certainly better than the one with the higher Strength score, since with one feat Dex can give a higher bonus to attack and . That said, you did come off a bit poorly. I would allow him to balance out his scores at their point buy value. Off the top of my head, that's 32 points to balance as he sees fit. That could get him four 13's and two fourteens, or two 10's , three 14's, and a 16.
DanjaNinja 05-06-05, 12:37 AM	Why is everyone calling the original poster a jerk? I got the impression he was just "messin' around" with his buddy. I casually insult my friends all the time, there's nothing wrong with it, in fact I'm only "polite" to people I don't know.
Mandarbgrim 05-06-05, 01:50 AM	Why is everyone calling the original poster a jerk? I got the impression he was just "messin' around" with his buddy. I casually insult my friends all the time, there's nothing wrong with it, in fact I'm only "polite" to people I don't know. Yeah..that was what I was saying earlier. If you are being polite to someone..it means they aren't good enough of a friend to not be polite.
Tanvalis 05-06-05, 02:10 AM	Yeah, I don't get why he's a jerk either... that same conversation with a LOT more cursing and name calling could have gone on between me and any of my friends if we had a differing of opinion about something. Personally I think the DM had the higher ground on this one. WORSE stats can't be better than BETTER stats... it just doesn't make sense. BUT I also don't think I'd have argued the point... maybe just let it slip to everyone else that he had rolled higher but decided to play lower ability scores... in my group.. he'd have gotten a slap on the back of the head from everyone.
Pinky's brain 05-06-05, 02:24 AM	Well I like point buy but it doesn't work well for multiclass characters or artificers.Why doesnt pointbuy work well for artificers? If the DM allows UMD boosting items then after he survives first few levels (no more difficult for him than other casters) he wont have trouble with 14 cha (ie. cheap on pointbuy). His primary casting stat doesnt need to be high either unlike with other casters.
Wrathamon 05-06-05, 02:27 PM	He was a jerk for bringing it to the boards to embarrash his friend. :p But, he seems like he learned his lesson :) You redeemed yourself with the apology soda :D now let the kid play his warforged ;)
PoeticJustice 05-06-05, 03:28 PM	We don't know enough to totally condemn either party. Does the Player often change characters? I flit around from character to character until I find something I like, rather than letting something grow on me. My DM and buddies are kind enough to forgive me for it, but if they ever asked me to stop I would listen. I think the DM did the mature thing by letting the Player know how he felt, which gives the player a guideline for future decisions. He could have done it without swearing and done it a little more directly, but that's neither here nor there. The DM also did the mature thing by acceding to the Player's demand, as well as not burning any bridges, or assuming he was right without opening it for further discussion. In the end the player gets what he wants while learning what irks his DM, the two are still on friendly terms, and the DM doesn't feel like a doormat. A good resolution, if you ask me.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 05-06-05, 11:46 PM	Why does the monk benefit from having lower stats with odd numbers? Because when he levels up, he'll be able to raise those modified 13's to 14's for less points than raising those unbalanced 12's to 14's.
RadicalTaoist 05-07-05, 11:02 PM	Try 4d4 + 2 for all stats. It's a fun rolling method with safer averages. Really high or low stats are raaaaaaaare though. Other favored methods: 28 point buy One 18 assigned, then the rest organic stats (3d6, you don't choose which result goes to which stat).
ILL34GL3 05-08-05, 04:33 PM	Player: I don't know why this such a big deal to you DM: Because you're being a dumb :censored: Nice argument jerkwad. That little exchange right there sums up what's wrong with your side of the story. You are right about the first set of stats making for a better monk though.
ThatOneMonk 05-08-05, 04:42 PM	Nice argument jerkwad good lord... that is not an argument, it's an exchange of frustration. The actual argument is the real issue. This is done.
Torgrim 05-09-05, 05:06 AM	I don't think you are a jerk. If I posted a conversation between myself and my players who are also some of my best friends, every other word would be an expletive and you would think we hate each other. All that aside, I am not a fan of rolling stats. The same thing always seems to happen one guy goes broken, one guy gets pretty good scores, and everyone else is middle of the road or worse. Those guys tend to be pretty dissatisfied with their characters and it makes for a short lived game. This is the point buy system I use: Everyone gets 23 points. All ability scores start at 10. After racial ability modifiers no score may be above 21 or below 3. 11 = 1pt 12 = 2pt 13 = 3pt 14 = 4pt 15 = 5 pt 16 = 7 pt 17 = 9 pt 18 = 12pt 19 = 15pt 20 = 19pt 21 = 23pt You can take a score below 10 and get extra points (ex. drop Cha from 10 to 7 and get 3 extra points). It seems to work really well and you can get some pretty intersting characters. We had a guy play a human wizard and dropped all 23 points in INT, needles to say he was a wrecking ball.
P33KAJ3W 05-09-05, 05:46 PM	Actually, I hate to say it but you come off worse. Let the poor guy play what he wants. nuff said
Xaraan 05-12-05, 08:44 PM	I can see why you get frustrated. I do when my players make up bland characters or something that just doesn't mesh at all with my campaign. But they are the players, the one thing they get control of is their character, so I work with it. Just let them play what they like and maybe they will get into the game even more.