Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sulaco 07-20-04, 12:39 PM	Given the size and complexity of city I belive that Sharn is, essentially, unmappable in any satisfying or successful way. It combines all the problems of trying to map a city, a massive building complex, and a labyrinth all in one, multiplied exponentially because of the 3D aspect, and magnified several times over again by the tremenous size. I picture Sharn as being vey much like a 3D labyrinth in many ways. Rather than being broken up into clearly stratified leves, and every structure being relegated to a single level, I see it as far more likely that dwellings and shops would have evolved in spread to adjoining spaces on multiple levels and to the sides very much like some of the locations in the city of Vivec in the game Morrowind. Also, I would imagaine that there are many large, open spaces and levels with full buildings constructed within or upon them rather than every place simply being a room leading off from a corridor or foyer. Again, this is illustrated in the top-levels of the sections of Vivec in Morrowind or like the city-world of Taris in KOTOR. Given those two factors, mapping Sharn is not simply a matter of drawing a floorplan for a very large tower with lots of little rooms. Simply drawing such a plan for a complex capable of housing 200,000 people would be an incredibly daunting task alone, but Sharn is infinitely more complex than that. So how do you think Sharn can be mapped for RPG use? I think the best, and possibly only, way to do it is a three-phased approach: First, we need a plan and a series of elevations (one each from all for cardinal points) showing the layout and how the towers relate. On these would be coded the general areas and layers of the towers as one would show neighborhoods on a traditional city map. Second, typical plans for a "typical" floorplan representative of each section of the city. Third, full plans of both vital and important structures/complexes like government offices and dragonmarked houses, and also plans of useful but commonplace structures/complexes like inns, shops, artisan's workshop, dwelling (per social/financial class) etc… Fully detailing Sharn could (and should) warrant a book unto itself.
Pallis 07-20-04, 12:44 PM	We're should count ourselves as fortunate that there's a Sharn sourcebook coming towards the end of the year! I guess we'll see then whether it is mappable or not... Really looking forward to the book - and the CD as well! :cool:
Sulaco 07-20-04, 12:58 PM	Originally posted by Pallis We're should count ourselves as fortunate that there's a Sharn sourcebook coming towards the end of the year! I guess we'll see then whether it is mappable or not... Really looking forward to the book - and the CD as well! :cool: Granted. But when I wrote that it needs it's own book to detail it, I was speaking entirely of mapping. I fear that the maps will be woefully inadequate and will fall into the "apartment block" style that, IMO, doesn't fully represent the way that a city like this would realistically develop over the many centuries of it's exisitence. I do hope I am wrong though, or at the very least that the designers read this thread and say "Crap, he's right! We'd better redo it.". ;)
Takasi 07-20-04, 01:19 PM	Not sure how you play, but since this is PnP and not a video game I don't think it's necessary to map out every square inch of Sharn. I would just like a list of the common areas and descriptions of how they relate to each other. From reading the material so far, here's what I've gathered: Upper Menthis - upper district of Thurias Tower, aka "Little Xen'drik" for antiquity sales Downstairs - rowdy tavern district above Cogs Cogs - heavy industry district in lower Sharn Dorasharn Ruins - human city, Sharn built upon Ja'shaarat Ruins - goblin city, Dorasharn built upon Heart of the Dragon - mystical paradise sought after by Cult of the Dragons Below For the most part, I wouldn't map out the entire city for adventures. As a DM I would give a list of locations they could visit. A helpful sourcebook would provide these lists for me, with names, events, purposes and other fluff. The only time I really need a map is for combat and custom adventure modules, both of which I don't think I'll need to see in the Sharn sourcebook. Maybe a few examples of typical combat areas and maybe one "dungeon" (the cogs would be cool). Otherwise just give me an overview and artwork of various areas around the city. An aerial view would be awesome!
Sulaco 07-20-04, 02:41 PM	Originally posted by Takasi Not sure how you play, but since this is PnP and not a video game I don't think it's necessary to map out every square inch of Sharn. I was not suggesting that Sharn needs to be mapped out to the square inch, and I was simply using the video game examples as they are ones that many people are likely to have moved through in a virtual 3D so as to best illustrate the spatial relationships I was discussing. What I was saying is that, given the complexity of the city, that mapping it out in any sort of verisimilar detail was virtually impossible. Thus, rather than attempting to do so and producing unsatisfactory results, I was suggesting a more workable solution. As to "how I play", I do so quite well thank you very much.
Sarig the Genie 07-20-04, 02:45 PM	When I read about Sharn, Coruscant (or whatever it's called, the capital) from Star Wars popped into my mind. Of course, that covers a whole planet...
Sereno 07-20-04, 03:27 PM	In the ECS, there are numerous references to different towers (as Takasi mentions) and the only picture I've seen gives it a sort of "goth" NYC feel. Perhaps several of the main towers (which will probably work like "neighborhoods") will be detailed; with additional details for important "levels" or areas. Having a "okay, you're in Sharn, where do you want to go" campaign will be hard. But, having a "Meet the shadowy guy in the Broken Flagon tavern, it's midway up the Tower of Dawn Rising, at the far east of Sharn who then tells you to go down to the Cogs, etc" would be much easier and flavorful. I think it would work as sort of a localized version of "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade" (US, Venice, Germany, Austria, Alexandretta, etc, didn't matter how he got there, the audience knew where he was going and what mattered is what happened at each place). So long as you have a rough idea of where the places are (relative to Sharn, or relative to the world) the players (most likely) won't care that they have to take bridge X to Skyway Y to Lift J, etc. to get there.
D+1 07-20-04, 04:04 PM	While it may not be a video game you CAN use video-game mapping techniques to your advantage. What you need is a wide but perhaps still limited assortment of prefabricated map pieces that could be randomly connected together to form typical areas of the city with more specific maps only for more specific locations. Thus you could have map sections to depict typical round towers, square, octagonal, of various diameters, with or without walkways of varying widths to other towers, open market areas, all in a variety of sizes, shapes, and architectural styles. Much as we used to do back in the old days to make dungeon crawls - we used prefab dungeon map blocks that simply were randomly interconnected. Sharn would be the same way, just on mulitple stacked levels. For the city overall it wouldn't be too difficult to merely indicate the location of specific sites, define the tower diameters and heights, as well as styles of a particular area. Once you have a particular area "mapped" using these prefabricated map parts you should be able to record in a fairly simple fashion which parts are used in which arrangement, perhaps on a piece of graph or hex paper. That way the DM could replicate quickly any given area that he's mapped out before. With enough variety and a bit of forethought to the prefab designs you can easily and rapidly lay down an instant map of any area to the point where you could really run a chase across the city over any level and have the look and feel of the areas change as the characters move through them.
Sulaco 07-20-04, 04:07 PM	On the topic of Sharn, how many towers are there exactly? The writeup mentions two - the Glass Tower and the Fourteenth Tower - so I think it is safe to assume that there are at least 14.
Saurenda 07-20-04, 04:12 PM	I'm not sure what it is you want here or what your complaining about. Here you are telling us that the source book for Sharn may fall short of your expectations, and yet you still don't want every single inch of the map of Sharn and go as far to tell us that it is not the greatest detail you need. What exactly is it do you want? All I can think of is a district listing and such that one person generously provided in a previous post to this thread. A sort of district, by district description that lists some of the more prominant businesses, and low end thieves guild houses as they appear level by level, and of course a sort of few secret chambers like the one containing the creation forge just below Sharn that Merrix d'Cannith himself controls. Though you seem to be asking for general description and mapping system of the city, how is it you want it organized? Level, sublevels, by towers themselves? There are a few towers of interest, but looking at an entire 300,000 metrolpolis is a bit overwlheming for the players, and espically the GM. A city like NY for example is just too big even for more crime organizations to fully control, and I doubt anyone who lives in Sharn all of thier life even sees more than half of the city. I'm still confused. Please clarify as to what you are asking for. It sounds like people have been trying to help you, but you don't seem to be satisfied regardless of any sort of answer. I myself still can't understand what type of 'map' you want, or if your trying to prove it just isn't worth mapping out Sharn at all. Oo; Then again I've only been GMing for months now, please make this discussion a bit easier to understand for my fragile mind.
Sulaco 07-20-04, 04:16 PM	Originally posted by D+1 While it may not be a video game you CAN use video-game mapping techniques to your advantage. What you need is a wide but perhaps still limited assortment of prefabricated map pieces that could be randomly connected together to form typical areas of the city with more specific maps only for more specific locations. The only probelm I see with this is the one I mentioned before, this method is largely 2D. Think about it. This is a vertical city that has been around for many centuries. There are doubtless shops and residences which have been continuously occupied for as long. As they need to grow and expand they may not have the luxury of doing so simply on single level. Far more likey, a merchant or resident who wishes to purchase new space will do so as it becomes available be it beside, above, or below their current location. So where in a normal city buildings sprawl in 2 dimensions, in Sharn they would sprawl in 3 dimensions. You'd end up with labyringthine complexes spreading upwards and sideways spanning many levels. A great merhcant house may have a mansion that takes up all of levels 43-46, offices on the north section of evel 42, servants areas to the north and east on levels 40-41, and storage areas to the eat on level 39, and guest quarters to the west on level 47 and the south on level 48, all of which is connected by numerous lifts, staircases and passages that wind above, below, and around the shops and residences of their neighbours.
Takasi 07-20-04, 04:18 PM	Sorry if I sound rude; please don't take this the wrong way. I lurk on the mini's boards and you make great posts. This thread just struck me as odd. You say it's impossible to map Sharn: What I was saying is that, given the complexity of the city, that mapping it out in any sort of verisimilar detail was virtually impossible. Thus, rather than attempting to do so and producing unsatisfactory results, I was suggesting a more workable solution. But earlier you requested an entire book just on mapping Sharn: Fully detailing Sharn could (and should) warrant a book unto itself. But when I wrote that it needs it's own book to detail it, I was speaking entirely of mapping. What I'm saying is that this isn't necessary. I don't need a lot of maps, either as a player or a DM. I just need a lot of locations and a general sense of how the city works. Maps should be reserved for a few sample combat areas and maybe a dungeon or two. I agree with D+1. Put in a few maps of common areas. DM's can rescale these to fit mini's and mix them up to simulate a chase scene. Need 3D? Put in some spots for stairs. What you don't need is to move mini's around the city like a video game just to get to a location. If there's no combat then I use abstract travel to locations. If the Sharn sourcebook has enough fluff to describe the city then it doesn't need a lot of maps. "Woefully inadequate" is a harsh term. So long as you have a rough idea of where the places are (relative to Sharn, or relative to the world) the players (most likely) won't care that they have to take bridge X to Skyway Y to Lift J, etc. to get there. I agree. This is exactly why a "Sharn atlas" isn't on top of my wish list.
Sulaco 07-20-04, 04:29 PM	Originally posted by Takasi Sorry if I sound rude; please don't take this the wrong way. I lurk on the mini's boards and you make great posts. This thread just struck me as odd. You say it's impossible to map Sharn: But earlier you requested an entire book just on mapping Sharn: What I'm saying is that this isn't necessary. I don't need a lot of maps, either as a player or a DM. I just need a lot of locations and a general sense of how the city works. Maps should be reserved for a few sample combat areas and maybe a dungeon or two. I agree with D+1. Put in a few maps of common areas. DM's can rescale these to fit mini's and mix them up to simulate a chase scene. Need 3D? Put in some spots for stairs. What you don't need is to move mini's around the city like a video game just to get to a location. If there's no combat then I use abstract travel to locations. If the Sharn sourcebook has enough fluff to describe the city then it doesn't need a lot of maps. "Woefully inadequate" is a harsh term. I never sugegsted the need to create maps on whihc ot move minis around. I don't "want" anything and neither am I "complaining". It was simply a discussion on whether or not Sharn could be accurately mapped and one possible method whereby Sharn could be mapped in such a way as to be useable and accessible without the need for minute and excruciating detail but without simply resorting to broad and largely-undefined suggestions. I suggested that the task of creating a fully detailed map of Sharn could in and of itself warrant its own book, not that I either desire or require such a book or such detailed maps for my own RPG use. I am a fan of maps in general (I collect antique maps) and I would enjoy such a thing on its own merits. I created this thread simply to discuss the phsyical complexity of the city of Sharn and how DMs could deal with it in thier games. For whatever reason this seems to have been translated by some as either that I am demanding an infinitely detailed map of Sharn, that I am absolutely oppopsed to the same, or that I am some kind of mindless dolt who can't comprehend anything beyond video games or miniatures.
Takasi 07-20-04, 04:46 PM	You're far from a mindless dolt Sulaco. You are very articulate, and I would also like to read ideas on how to map Sharn. However, I think some in the thread took issue when you said Sharn "needs it's own (mapping) book" and implied that Sharn's nature would make the maps in the upcoming sourcebook "woefully inadequate". Also, the title of the thread is a bit flammable; it attracts arguments because it sounds contraversial. Is Sharn mappable? I think so. It would take a lot of work, and I think you would need to make a 3D computer simulation to do it justice. What type of maps are used by Sharn's residents? Like you said, there are probably a number of towers and levels. Maps are probably overhead, with towers named. Once you get to a tower the layers are probably marked on the buildings. I think you sparked another good topic. How much of Sharn should be mapped out in the upcoming sourcebook?
Jhaelen 07-20-04, 08:06 PM	Actually I hope there will be no map of Sharn in the Sharn sourcebook. I doubt any map could do it justice and besides you'll neither need nor want one: All you need are lots of memorable places that you can drop into your adventures wherever and whenever you happen to need them (maybe including maps in some cases). By not mapping the city you can just keep adding interesting places. I also believe there'll be a lot of flux. Sharn's not only growing, there will also be a lot of changes to existing features over time: Shops close down or move elsewhere, new owners set up shop, rooms and buildings are added or modified, old bridges and elevators fall into disrepair, while new ones pop up elsewhere, etc. Unless you're making a living by playing guide to visitors looking for places you won't have a chance to know about every little corner of Sharn. And any previous knowledge you may have had about Sharn would be quickly outdated (if your campaign is a typical one, the PCs will do a lot of traveling all over Khorvaire and beyond which takes a looong time unless money is of no concern for them).
Sebby 07-20-04, 09:14 PM	Any of you ol' farts out there might remember an AD&D 1st ed. module, DL3 Dragons of Hope, part of the original Dragonlance serie that started it all. In there, they used geomorphic sections to map out the entire Kingdom of Thorbardin. Each section (there were 16) was 300'x300', could be placed in any orientation and could be placed next to almost any other one. There were sections mapping shop quarters, gardens, citadels, public squares, residential, etc. There were "meta-maps" showing how these geomorphs were arranged to describe every dwarven colony in the kingdom. The largest, an enormous hollowed out stone column in the middle of an underground sea, the Life Tree of the Hylar, was 30 levels high, with its highest level using 89 geomorphs. I think this technique could be used to map Sharn, because it would lend well to mapping skyscrapers and you can map a lot of stuff in a few pages. There is a certain amount of repetitiveness, but that is easy to overlook unless you are looking at it from high up.
Simon Jester 07-20-04, 10:09 PM	Originally posted by Sebby There were "meta-maps" showing how these geomorphs were arranged to describe every dwarven colony in the kingdom. The largest, an enormous hollowed out stone column in the middle of an underground sea, the Life Tree of the Hylar, was 30 levels high, with its highest level using 89 geomorphs. I think this technique could be used to map Sharn, because it would lend well to mapping skyscrapers and you can map a lot of stuff in a few pages. There is a certain amount of repetitiveness, but that is easy to overlook unless you are looking at it from high up. The same idea was also used for the Waterdeep City System and Lankhmar supplements, at least in parts. As for repetitiveness, that's almost necessary in a building more than two or three stories. You need the walls of the levels underneath to support the walls above. There can be some variation of the lesser, non-loadbearing walls, but most of them would stay the same from level to level. The mental image I get of the Sharn towers is of stalagmites, with a wide base and the body narrowing as it rises to the top. As the tower grows, the lower levels spread out and eventually connect to the lower levels of the other, neighboring, towers. This would explain the totally covered lower levels of Sharn, and also would give an indication of how new towers might start. Someone in one of the lower levels of a tower might start building an addition out and above his residence or shop and it sticks out from the side of the tower. People build around it, adding rooms and passages, as they would normally, and the growth protrudes more and more. If it grows upward fast enough, it might be able to separate itself from it's originating tower, becoming a tower of Sharn in it's own right. Similarly, if a tower doesn't keep expanding as fast as it's neighbors, it risks being absorbed by it's neighbors, or simply sinking into the slowly but steadily rising "ground level". Another idea the Sharn towers gives me is a rendition of Block Mania, from the 2000AD "Judge Dredd" comic book. But that might be a bit too extreme. Simon Jester :devil:
Bluebrush 07-20-04, 10:13 PM	The Solution: The Sharn sourcebook will be the first official Pop-up-book made for D&D 3.5.
lugnut71 07-20-04, 10:16 PM	I tend to argree Sharn would be almost impossible to map. I mean there are towers everywhere that you can enter,go around, use to go up or down. Not to mention platforms running from towers. Towers built on platforms. Elevators all over the place. It would only get worst as you travel down to. The best way to think of it is to take New York's biggest tower infested area and combine them all with walkways then multiply that by 10. And the amount of towers I tend to think they number in the hundreds. All of them different heights.
Docrailgun 07-20-04, 10:43 PM	Citybooks are very important to games such as Shadowrun, which, of course, has much more then 200K people in it in the late 21st Century. Those books have maps in them, but pruposefully don't try to map the entire city... partially because the task is too daunting, but also because by doing so, they're taking away too many of the GM's story possibilities. All we need is some idea of the various levels, who lives in them, what's interesting and different about important towers and levels, and some points of interest. This is exactly like Shadowrun's Seattle books: an overview map, a map of each sub-city/neighborhood, what's interesting in each section, who lives there, and some points of interest (for story hooks). Luckily, the pulp adventure theme allows for the "following the red line" style of travel as Keith mentioned in the recent "Dragonshards" article, so there's almost no need for a map. Originally posted by Sulaco I was not suggesting that Sharn needs to be mapped out to the square inch, and I was simply using the video game examples as they are ones that many people are likely to have moved through in a virtual 3D so as to best illustrate the spatial relationships I was discussing. What I was saying is that, given the complexity of the city, that mapping it out in any sort of verisimilar detail was virtually impossible. Thus, rather than attempting to do so and producing unsatisfactory results, I was suggesting a more workable solution. As to "how I play", I do so quite well thank you very much.
ENHenry 07-20-04, 11:27 PM	Originally posted by Simon Jester As for repetitiveness, that's almost necessary in a building more than two or three stories. You need the walls of the levels underneath to support the walls above. There can be some variation of the lesser, non-loadbearing walls, but most of them would stay the same from level to level. The mental image I get of the Sharn towers is of stalagmites, with a wide base and the body narrowing as it rises to the top. As the tower grows, the lower levels spread out and eventually connect to the lower levels of the other, neighboring, towers. This would explain the totally covered lower levels of Sharn, and also would give an indication of how new towers might start. However, in Sharn, they don't need to do this. The whole city is situated on a Manifest Zone to Syrania; due to the magics involved, these towers may well be parallel or may even expand as they go up. As for how to map it, the only way I could conceive would be similar to mapping the hells - mark it in districts, and mark it according to height. I for one would LOVE to see a card stock gatefold, showing the towers layed out in landscape fashion on the gatefold, and what districts are at what levels. :D
stembolt 07-20-04, 11:40 PM	A flowchart map is probably the best approach to use to map out the districts. Also you can list out connections from district to district. For example: “Downstairs” Description – A district of taverns and service related businesses located underground but above the cogs. Connections: The Cogs by lift and by tunnel Ja'shaarat Ruins by tunnel Tower X and Tower Y by lift Ground level by tunnel The Map is a little tricky to use but you get an idea of what to do.
LordofIllusions 07-21-04, 08:17 AM	Originally posted by Sarig the Genie When I read about Sharn, Coruscant (or whatever it's called, the capital) from Star Wars popped into my mind. Of course, that covers a whole planet... LoL! I had said the very same thing a few days after the setting appeared in stores. It really does look like Coruscant. ~~~
Sulaco 07-21-04, 03:03 PM	Originally posted by LordofIllusions LoL! I had said the very same thing a few days after the setting appeared in stores. It really does look like Coruscant. Or, as I mentioned in my earliier posts, Taris from KOTOR. Taris is also a multi-level, world-spanning city very much in the vein of Coruscant. However, since it was in a video game rather than a movie I used it as an example cos I figured more people would have first-hand (albeit virtual) experience of moving around in Taris as opposed to Coruscant.
Roo 07-21-04, 03:19 PM	Correct, as well as the undercity, the upper crust, etc... But I still envision the city in Blade Runner (was that NYC?) - and of course, Blade Runner is a great noir film. :)
Ishbel 07-21-04, 04:18 PM	I think the best 'Map' for my purposes would be a map like the ones used for the Underground [Subway]. It gives you the rough physical layout of important sites (the stations/towers) and an indication of the best route to get there. Even if the lines on the map don't represent air-coach or tram lines between towers, they can represent the sequence of walkways you must take and the colour-coding could represent altitude in a way. Then you as the DM or as players could see if in getting from Tower A to Tower B you would have to go through the Cogs or past the Palace. As I say, for my purposes that would be excellent. YMMV. Ish.
perringaiden 07-21-04, 09:46 PM	I always envisiaged something like the city out of "The Fifth Element" , or Cloud City from the Empire Strikes Back. It can't be evening all the time, and some parts like temples to the Church of the Silver Flame etc have to be clean and bright. As for a map, I think the best thing you could ever expect or want would be maybe one detailed neighbourhood to give an idea of how an area fits together with bridges etc, and then major points of intrest to give a feel for the city. I intend to set my first campaign in Sharn, but I don't want every inch mapped out as I need my GMing space. Otherwise I have to wait till November before I can start. PerrinGaiden
St23aM 07-21-04, 11:57 PM	do you think that it is always dark down at the bottom of Sharn? It said somewhere that the towers span 1 mile high so do you guys think its possible for it to be dark all day long at ground and sewer level of Sharn like the City Taris in KOTOR?
LordofIllusions 07-22-04, 08:13 AM	Originally posted by Sulaco Or, as I mentioned in my earliier posts, Taris from KOTOR. Taris is also a multi-level, world-spanning city very much in the vein of Coruscant. However, since it was in a video game rather than a movie I used it as an example cos I figured more people would have first-hand (albeit virtual) experience of moving around in Taris as opposed to Coruscant. Wait a minute was Taris the place where you had to race those bikes and the first spot were you met Calo Nord ? I remember the poor people having to live underground or something like that. Also wasn't there some mutates or something that they had in a closed off area underground ? I remember some guy guarding it and at one time they tried to get out of the gate or something. ~~~
Kid SixXx 07-22-04, 09:30 AM	Sharn follows in the fine pulp novel tradition of gigantic spired ciites such as Opar (from the Tarzan books) and the capital of Barsoom (John Carter, Warlord of Mars) from Edgar Rice Burrough's various works. Sharn does share a great many simiarities with Taris, but Taris seems to draw heavily from other established pulp cities from other sources, as does Sharn. I agree: it will take an entire book just to flesh out Sharn. The city has infinite potential for continual production of adventure hooks. The Sharn sourcebook will be the first official Pop-up-book made for D&D 3.5. As big as Sharn appears to be, that pop-up would probably engulf my entire living room. :(
St23aM 07-22-04, 09:30 AM	Yes it was.
MarkB 07-22-04, 09:58 AM	I agree with the comparison to Manhattan as portrayed in The Fifth Element - that's how I tend to envision Sharn. Especially that very brief shot you get looking back at the city as the spaceliner leaves, where you see that the sea-level's dropped, and Manhattan Island is now a massive cliff, with an extensive port complex at its base. There are a couple of other neat ideas to lift from that movie for Sharn - the travelling food vendor in his hovering sampan, the standardised cubicle-like look for low-rent accomodation that lets as many people as possible be packed into a vertical space, the stacked lanes of flying traffic, the dense fogs that brew up to obscure the city's lower reaches. However, I can't imagine Sharn being laid out in such regular, orderly rows as Manhattan. Another nice bit of source material would be Millenium City from the Tom Strong comic series by Alan Moore - a fictional city built with tallness as a design ethic, in which the upper levels are interconnected by multiple cable car routes that serve the same function as subways in Manhattan.
St23aM 07-22-04, 10:04 AM	about the fog thing... it makes since in a Sci-Fi setting but, what could we use to rationalize the fog and darkness in the lower levels of Sharn ?
LordofIllusions 07-22-04, 10:18 AM	Originally posted by St23aM do you think that it is always dark down at the bottom of Sharn? It said somewhere that the towers span 1 mile high so do you guys think its possible for it to be dark all day long at ground and sewer level of Sharn like the City Taris in KOTOR? I would think so. Maybe we can get an official stance on this question over on the Ask Keith Baker thread ? ~~~
Kid SixXx 07-22-04, 10:52 AM	Originally posted by St23aM about the fog thing... it makes since in a Sci-Fi setting but, what could we use to rationalize the fog and darkness in the lower levels of Sharn ? To combine a couple of analogies. If Sharn is similar to Taris from KoTOR (ie the lower you go, the poorer you get), then the fog is made up of permanent Fog Clouds placed there by mages hired by the city's richer patrons. Obviously it would take tons of wealth to bring the lower levels up to code with the upper city, but the richer families obviously don't want that kind of parity. The magical fog is there to obscure the lower levels from sight so that the dwellers of the upper city can pretend that the lower city does not exist. Out of sight = Out of mind
St23aM 07-22-04, 10:55 AM	could also be there to cast the Eternal Night on the lower levels ... perhaps Sharn throws OutCasts down there as well once there jails get full. Kind of like exile to Austrila but, austrila is in your basement type thing.
Kid SixXx 07-22-04, 11:11 AM	Originally posted by St23aM could also be there to cast the Eternal Night on the lower levels ... perhaps Sharn throws OutCasts down there as well once there jails get full. Kind of like exile to Austrila but, austrila is in your basement type thing. I don't see why there can't be such permanent Darkness spells in place, but I'd think that like Taris, Sharn would have some underground facilities for the housing of such people. Taris' Undercity, where the Outcasts lived, was eternally dark because it was deep underground, IIRC. The rich people of Sharn would just blot out the slums with fog as the folks living there would be poor, but not menaces to society. Outcasts, OTOH, could be potentially dangerous so they'd need to be kept as far away from society as physically possible (ie. underground).
MarkB 07-22-04, 11:16 AM	Well, Sharn is a coastal city, and it's likely to get fogs, low clouds etc. I think this is one case where you don't need to reach for a magical explanation - there could be perfectly natural reasons why fogs form lower in the city. If you want magical explanations, though - perhaps in order to make this a permanent, rather than intermittent, phenomenon - I'd make it an effect of the Syrania manifest zone. In Syrania, the sky is always a clear blue, and the maifest zone attempts to re-create that status within Sharn. As a result, any clouds that encounter the zone have their moisture precipitated downwards as it passes into the zone, to build up in great banks of fog at the lower-mid-levels, then precipitate into rain at the lowest levels. One advantage of this is that it lets you place a wide variety of city settings within the one venue. The upper levels are the brightly-lit cityscapes of Coruscant or The Fith Element's Manhattan, the mid-levels are the foglit streets of Victorian London or 20s Chicago, the roaming ground of iconic detectives, gangsters and the like, and the lowest levels are the always-dark, rainswept streets of Bladerunner.
Kid SixXx 07-22-04, 11:45 AM	MarkB's synopsis is by far the more satisfying one, as it uses elements from Sharn itself, instead of trying to shoehorn Taris into Sharn. I'd go with his point-of-view.
dragontreeje 07-22-04, 11:54 AM	dose this realy work, because in the Forgotten Forge, it is raining down on too the towers at the begining of the adventure.....as far as the outcast, I agree that they would most likly be put underground....
MarkB 07-22-04, 12:03 PM	Originally posted by dragontreeje dose this realy work, because in the Forgotten Forge, it is raining down on too the towers at the begining of the adventure..... This is where you can put your deliberate, human-based magic. There are probably plenty of gardens on top of the towers, and the easiest way to water them are a few weather-control spells.
Sulaco 07-22-04, 01:17 PM	Originally posted by St23aM about the fog thing... it makes since in a Sci-Fi setting but, what could we use to rationalize the fog and darkness in the lower levels of Sharn ? In The Fifth Element the fog was largely composed of off-gasses from rotting garbage. Remember the airport scene with all the piles of rotting garbage? Apparently there was a garbage strike that was in something like its 10th year. The first several levels of the city were completely filled with uncollected waste. Another thing which is interesting, which could work in the magical context of Sharn, is that the apartments in The Fifth Element were modular. When you wanted to move you unplugged your unit from the building and took the whole place with you.
Sulaco 07-22-04, 01:25 PM	Originally posted by MarkB The upper levels are the brightly-lit cityscapes of Coruscant or The Fith Element's Manhattan, the mid-levels are the foglit streets of Victorian London or 20s Chicago, the roaming ground of iconic detectives, gangsters and the like, and the lowest levels are the always-dark, rainswept streets of Bladerunner. That's the best one yet. I like it! And below even that, among the ancinet foundations of the city, you get the multi-layered subterranean tunnels and labyrinths of Cleopatra 2525 (did anyone else watch that show?) or Zion (from The Matrix films). In the Blade Runner vein, I could see it pretty much raining all the time at the lower leves as well. Sharn is in a pretty warm and moist location. I could forsee that part of the magical enhancement on the towers include climate control, particularly at the topmost levels, which would lead to a lot of moisture condensing out of the air onto these huge towers. By the time all this moisture makes it down to the streets thousands of feet below it is falling as rain, which really helps to set the pulp/noir mood.
the_fools_wildhunt 07-22-04, 07:42 PM	As big as Sharn appears to be, that pop-up would probably engulf my entire living room. :( Hey, if we pay a little more, can we get one to scale?:D :D Time to get LARPing in our very own City of Sharn. Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt (all in 6 six seconds) If you don't get, be thankful. :D
D+1 07-25-04, 12:12 PM	Originally posted by Roo But I still envision the city in Blade Runner (was that NYC?) - and of course, Blade Runner is a great noir film. :)It was Los Angeles. Said so in a text label right in the movie IIRC. Regarding the rest of the debate here I can only say that form follows function. What is it that you need a map of Sharn for? That determines how much detail you need for maps and whether it's possible or practical to map it. For red-line/pulp purposes all you need is neighborhood overviews - a general description of who lives there and why, the architecture (if distinctive), and places of interest (which may or may not have detailed maps for them.) For people who need instant maps for ad-hoc adventures or running battles in the "streets" you have to have a LOT of generic maps that you can adapt, a random generation system, or a modular kind of system that can be assembled on the fly. Also useful for those who DO feel that they must have the entire city mapped. Of course, having no kind of detailed maps at all is a viable approach. Why? Because then it leaves it to individual DM's to individualize the entire city. The look and feel of MY Sharn is different from anyone elses because of how I describe it, how I run adventures in it, and how I do or don't map it leaving more to the imagination of the players - who fill in the details with their own perceptions of Blade Runner's Los Angeles, The Fifth Element's New York, Corsuscant from Star Wars, or whatever other appropriate city from film or fiction leaps to their mind. My guess is that a Sharn sourcebook would defintely be more maps of specific locations, lots of NPC details, some generic shops, organizations, and lots of general information to provide potential adventure hooks. For practical purposes it is just too big and too unwieldly in its very nature to bother mapping to any significant extent. I personally see it as a mix of many of the mentioned sources with it's own elements as well. The sci-fi references are more for visual tone and mood. Bladerunner is a slightly more real-world feel but much darker and grittier; very noir. It differs from the other sci-fi cities mentioned in that most people DON'T move about the city by flight. In Fifth Element and Star Wars they do. Coruscant is very clean and very open, which draws a natural comparison to another Star Wars location not yet mentioned - Cloud City. Cloud City is much more like a real-world city with skyscrapers and while it has plenty of landing pads and aerial traffic it's still mostly foot traffic that we see. Flying vehicles within the city seem to be the pod-car patrols. Fifty Element of course is more pulp and less noir with a great many more pop culture references giving it a much more distinctive, individual character. Combine all that with a decidedly more pedestrian-friendly archictecture and you have my vision of the city. It needs to be pedestrian-friendly unless you're intending the city to be a Stairmaster from HELL - the towers are thousands of feet tall after all. Even though the place has special rules about levitation and flight magic I don't care for the idea of making a fantasy city look and feel like one of the aforementioned science fiction cities. I like a little SF in my fantasy but don't care for fantasy that thinly masquerades AS science fiction.
Joni-san 07-26-04, 01:16 PM	Sharn is a bit like Hong Kong in certain regards. In both cities the wealthy who climb up in social rang also move up physicaly by moving up a few apartments in the tower/skyscraper they live in. Eventualy the top-dogs live in the highest possible place. Both are known as centers of commerce in the region.