Is this character evil? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is this character evil? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Siduakal
03-11-05, 08:39 PM A character who worships the Keeper, because he wants to make sure he never faces his enemies in the afterlife. (He's killed so many.. and will kill so many more...) So he prays to the keeper to take their souls.....

Now is that evil? I personally think he's Neutral. Since he doesn't go around raping/looting/pillaging/etc... He just worships an evil deity.
Bluebrush
03-11-05, 08:48 PM Well, there are non-evil reasons to worship the Keeper, but this isn't one of them.

Asking an evil god to take the souls of people into an eternity of torment with little hope of release is pretty darn evil. Even if they were evil themselves.
Euangelion
03-11-05, 08:52 PM Do you mean worship, as in put your absolute highest trust in the Keeper as your source of identity and purpose, or do you mean placate, paying off the Keeper so that you'll dodge a bolt in the afterlife?
I think it would be rather difficult to truly worship the Keeper without being evil in inclination, but I'm sure lots and lots of neutrals and some who are good seek to placate the Keeper from time to time. Also, Keith just posted a few things on the AKB thread that pertain to your question.
Siduakal
03-11-05, 08:53 PM More or less, he's paying off the keeper. Not devoting his life to him.
Euangelion
03-11-05, 08:56 PM Well, there are non-evil reasons to worship the Keeper, but this isn't one of them.

Asking an evil god to take the souls of people into an eternity of torment with little hope of release is pretty darn evil. Even if they were evil themselves.

Rereading the original post, I have to agree for the most part with Bluebrush, unless the people he killed were so evil that only in the Keeper's grasp is the universe ultimately safe. Sort of a cosmic death penalty vs. life in prison parallel, I suppose. Telling us more about the people he killed would be helpful. Last War? Simple soldiers following the orders of the enemy nation probably don't deserve to be with the Keeper, and probably would understand that your character was just following orders himself, so revenge isn't necesssarily something to worry about. Anyway, tell us more.
Edymnion
03-11-05, 09:03 PM Generally, damning anyone's soul to eternal torment is a pretty evil thing to do.
Especially considered the character is doing it just so they won't have to put up with them in the afterlife?

Lets see, the character is showing no respect for the wellbeing of others, as long as they themselves get off okay.

Yeah, I'd call that evil.
Eternal damnation just so you can escape some inconveniences later on.

Yeah...
Euangelion
03-11-05, 09:07 PM Lets see, the character is showing no respect for the wellbeing of others, as long as they themselves get off okay.

Yeah, I'd call that evil.

Unless, as I suggested, that those trapped are so evil that for the well-being of others one cannot risk the possibility of raise dead or resurrection, but that sure doesn't sound like what we're dealing with here. :D
Edymnion
03-11-05, 09:12 PM Unless, as I suggested, that those trapped are so evil that for the well-being of others one cannot risk the possibility of raise dead or resurrection, but that sure doesn't sound like what we're dealing with here. :DWell, the key line here is:because he wants to make sure he never faces his enemies in the afterlife.They're not doing it because these people are the ultimate evil in the universe, they're doing it because they don't wanna be in the same afterlife as them. Never even really said that these people are evil, just that they were enemies.

Its like saying you tell the cops that the high school bully is murdering people because you don't want to have to work in the same business as them one day, that somehow sending them off to life imprisonment is acceptable just because you don't want to face them later on.

Yeah, I'd call that really, REALLY evil.
Heck, most of the things we call evil still let the person go on to their just reward in the after life (well, in settings where people actually GET a just rewward). This isn't only killing them, this is damning their souls for all of eternity just because you don't want to talk to them in the afterlife!

REALLY evil.
Charles Phipps
03-11-05, 09:16 PM I agree that its not necessarily evil.....

He's just PRAYING for it and there's plenty of mitigating circumstances all round that might balance the scales.

In D&D you can be horrifically evil in one thing but good elsewise and it comes out the other ways
Siran Dunmorgan
03-11-05, 09:38 PM Not evil... just stupid.

There is no "facing your enemies" in Dolurrh... your greatest love, your worst enemy... just shades. Indistinguishable one from the other. People you never knew in life... street beggars from the ancient Sarlonan homeland of humanity, Dhakaani Emperors... doesn't matter. You're all the same, once you're dead, once Dolurrh claims you.

Worshiping the Keeper doesn't help, one way or another. Just puts things off a bit.

—Siran Dunmorgan
Edymnion
03-11-05, 09:42 PM Not evil... just stupid.

There is no "facing your enemies" in Dolurrh... your greatest love, your worst enemy... just shades. Indistinguishable one from the other. People you never knew in life... street beggars from the ancient Sarlonan homeland of humanity, Dhakaani Emperors... doesn't matter. You're all the same, once you're dead, once Dolurrh claims you.

Worshiping the Keeper doesn't help, one way or another. Just puts things off a bit.

—Siran DunmorganWell, we know that. Nothing to say that the individuals in the setting know that.
Power of the Horde
03-11-05, 11:38 PM What's he like apart from this? Your alignment isn't necessarily based on just one aspect of your personality.
Siduakal
03-11-05, 11:54 PM Meh I was just asking. THat's all I had. I was just arguin with DM. I said it's not evil cause they're evil people. He said it's still really evil.
Gunrock
03-12-05, 01:09 AM Meh I was just asking. THat's all I had. I was just arguin with DM. I said it's not evil cause they're evil people. He said it's still really evil.
He's right for two reasons. First, the GM is always right (even when they aren't). Second, praying for the people you've killed to burn in Hell (or it's Eberronian equivalent) is a rotten thing to do. That one does it to avoid having to deal with them in the after life, not because they earned such punishment but for personal gain, just makes it worse.

In short, your character is evil. That may be the only thing that makes him evil, but someone that would do that could easily justify killing dozens of orphans to avoid being arrested (it he thought that would work). He's not neccessarily a bad guy, he's just evil.
Doctor X
03-12-05, 04:52 AM He's right for two reasons. First, the GM is always right (even when they aren't).
:dancin:
Siduakal
03-12-05, 09:04 AM Gee, Thanks Gun.. Inflate his ego for me.. -mumbles- .. Now he's going to think he's important again!

:surrender :surrender :surrender
Doctor X
03-12-05, 04:52 PM Gee, Thanks Gun.. Inflate his ego for me.. -mumbles- .. Now he's going to think he's important again!

:surrender :surrender :surrender

Hey, I am important. :weep:
Gunrock
03-12-05, 09:18 PM Okay, kids, settle down. We're all here to play nice together. :P
Sid, this is one of those times you should have obeyed Gunrock's rule of questions. If you don't want an honest answer, don't ask the question.

(Note: I don't care if you're 9 or 90, for the purpose of this post, I am calling you kids. :cool: )
Siduakal
03-12-05, 09:23 PM lol, I don't mind honest answers. I figured he was evil, I was just hoping for a way to spin it to Neutral. =P
Bluebrush
03-12-05, 09:41 PM If you wanted a neutral cleric of the keeper, you could maybe try for someone who tries to appease the keeper to make sure his loved ones don't get stuck in eternal torment.

Though how you choose to go about this might make you evil anyway.
Lokiyn
03-13-05, 01:06 AM Hmm i wouldn't say this was "evil" per se, i Assume that the enemies he's killing are things like monstrous beings who attack him or muggers and the like. Now even though we know the fate of the dead its possible that the character might have some concept of heaven and hell with hell being the domain of the keeper. Now seeing as the character views his enemies as bad people he is naturally going to assume that they are going to go to "hell" while he as a good person will go to "heaven". Not all that far off from what some people believe.

he's basically just praying that for bad people to recieve thier proper punishment for being bad in life. Without ranks in knowledge(religion) or some such he probably wouldn't know much about the keeper except he imprisons bad people, or some such twist or the truth. Of course if he learns the truth and then continues to pray that might be another matter.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Siduakal 03-11-05, 08:39 PM	A character who worships the Keeper, because he wants to make sure he never faces his enemies in the afterlife. (He's killed so many.. and will kill so many more...) So he prays to the keeper to take their souls..... Now is that evil? I personally think he's Neutral. Since he doesn't go around raping/looting/pillaging/etc... He just worships an evil deity.
Bluebrush 03-11-05, 08:48 PM	Well, there are non-evil reasons to worship the Keeper, but this isn't one of them. Asking an evil god to take the souls of people into an eternity of torment with little hope of release is pretty darn evil. Even if they were evil themselves.
Euangelion 03-11-05, 08:52 PM	Do you mean worship, as in put your absolute highest trust in the Keeper as your source of identity and purpose, or do you mean placate, paying off the Keeper so that you'll dodge a bolt in the afterlife? I think it would be rather difficult to truly worship the Keeper without being evil in inclination, but I'm sure lots and lots of neutrals and some who are good seek to placate the Keeper from time to time. Also, Keith just posted a few things on the AKB thread that pertain to your question.
Siduakal 03-11-05, 08:53 PM	More or less, he's paying off the keeper. Not devoting his life to him.
Euangelion 03-11-05, 08:56 PM	Well, there are non-evil reasons to worship the Keeper, but this isn't one of them. Asking an evil god to take the souls of people into an eternity of torment with little hope of release is pretty darn evil. Even if they were evil themselves. Rereading the original post, I have to agree for the most part with Bluebrush, unless the people he killed were so evil that only in the Keeper's grasp is the universe ultimately safe. Sort of a cosmic death penalty vs. life in prison parallel, I suppose. Telling us more about the people he killed would be helpful. Last War? Simple soldiers following the orders of the enemy nation probably don't deserve to be with the Keeper, and probably would understand that your character was just following orders himself, so revenge isn't necesssarily something to worry about. Anyway, tell us more.
Edymnion 03-11-05, 09:03 PM	Generally, damning anyone's soul to eternal torment is a pretty evil thing to do. Especially considered the character is doing it just so they won't have to put up with them in the afterlife? Lets see, the character is showing no respect for the wellbeing of others, as long as they themselves get off okay. Yeah, I'd call that evil. Eternal damnation just so you can escape some inconveniences later on. Yeah...
Euangelion 03-11-05, 09:07 PM	Lets see, the character is showing no respect for the wellbeing of others, as long as they themselves get off okay. Yeah, I'd call that evil. Unless, as I suggested, that those trapped are so evil that for the well-being of others one cannot risk the possibility of raise dead or resurrection, but that sure doesn't sound like what we're dealing with here. :D
Edymnion 03-11-05, 09:12 PM	Unless, as I suggested, that those trapped are so evil that for the well-being of others one cannot risk the possibility of raise dead or resurrection, but that sure doesn't sound like what we're dealing with here. :DWell, the key line here is:because he wants to make sure he never faces his enemies in the afterlife.They're not doing it because these people are the ultimate evil in the universe, they're doing it because they don't wanna be in the same afterlife as them. Never even really said that these people are evil, just that they were enemies. Its like saying you tell the cops that the high school bully is murdering people because you don't want to have to work in the same business as them one day, that somehow sending them off to life imprisonment is acceptable just because you don't want to face them later on. Yeah, I'd call that really, REALLY evil. Heck, most of the things we call evil still let the person go on to their just reward in the after life (well, in settings where people actually GET a just rewward). This isn't only killing them, this is damning their souls for all of eternity just because you don't want to talk to them in the afterlife! REALLY evil.
Charles Phipps 03-11-05, 09:16 PM	I agree that its not necessarily evil..... He's just PRAYING for it and there's plenty of mitigating circumstances all round that might balance the scales. In D&D you can be horrifically evil in one thing but good elsewise and it comes out the other ways
Siran Dunmorgan 03-11-05, 09:38 PM	Not evil... just stupid. There is no "facing your enemies" in Dolurrh... your greatest love, your worst enemy... just shades. Indistinguishable one from the other. People you never knew in life... street beggars from the ancient Sarlonan homeland of humanity, Dhakaani Emperors... doesn't matter. You're all the same, once you're dead, once Dolurrh claims you. Worshiping the Keeper doesn't help, one way or another. Just puts things off a bit. —Siran Dunmorgan
Edymnion 03-11-05, 09:42 PM	Not evil... just stupid. There is no "facing your enemies" in Dolurrh... your greatest love, your worst enemy... just shades. Indistinguishable one from the other. People you never knew in life... street beggars from the ancient Sarlonan homeland of humanity, Dhakaani Emperors... doesn't matter. You're all the same, once you're dead, once Dolurrh claims you. Worshiping the Keeper doesn't help, one way or another. Just puts things off a bit. —Siran DunmorganWell, we know that. Nothing to say that the individuals in the setting know that.
Power of the Horde 03-11-05, 11:38 PM	What's he like apart from this? Your alignment isn't necessarily based on just one aspect of your personality.
Siduakal 03-11-05, 11:54 PM	Meh I was just asking. THat's all I had. I was just arguin with DM. I said it's not evil cause they're evil people. He said it's still really evil.
Gunrock 03-12-05, 01:09 AM	Meh I was just asking. THat's all I had. I was just arguin with DM. I said it's not evil cause they're evil people. He said it's still really evil. He's right for two reasons. First, the GM is always right (even when they aren't). Second, praying for the people you've killed to burn in Hell (or it's Eberronian equivalent) is a rotten thing to do. That one does it to avoid having to deal with them in the after life, not because they earned such punishment but for personal gain, just makes it worse. In short, your character is evil. That may be the only thing that makes him evil, but someone that would do that could easily justify killing dozens of orphans to avoid being arrested (it he thought that would work). He's not neccessarily a bad guy, he's just evil.
Doctor X 03-12-05, 04:52 AM	He's right for two reasons. First, the GM is always right (even when they aren't). :dancin:
Siduakal 03-12-05, 09:04 AM	Gee, Thanks Gun.. Inflate his ego for me.. -mumbles- .. Now he's going to think he's important again! :surrender :surrender :surrender
Doctor X 03-12-05, 04:52 PM	Gee, Thanks Gun.. Inflate his ego for me.. -mumbles- .. Now he's going to think he's important again! :surrender :surrender :surrender Hey, I am important. :weep:
Gunrock 03-12-05, 09:18 PM	Okay, kids, settle down. We're all here to play nice together. :P Sid, this is one of those times you should have obeyed Gunrock's rule of questions. If you don't want an honest answer, don't ask the question. (Note: I don't care if you're 9 or 90, for the purpose of this post, I am calling you kids. :cool: )
Siduakal 03-12-05, 09:23 PM	lol, I don't mind honest answers. I figured he was evil, I was just hoping for a way to spin it to Neutral. =P
Bluebrush 03-12-05, 09:41 PM	If you wanted a neutral cleric of the keeper, you could maybe try for someone who tries to appease the keeper to make sure his loved ones don't get stuck in eternal torment. Though how you choose to go about this might make you evil anyway.
Lokiyn 03-13-05, 01:06 AM	Hmm i wouldn't say this was "evil" per se, i Assume that the enemies he's killing are things like monstrous beings who attack him or muggers and the like. Now even though we know the fate of the dead its possible that the character might have some concept of heaven and hell with hell being the domain of the keeper. Now seeing as the character views his enemies as bad people he is naturally going to assume that they are going to go to "hell" while he as a good person will go to "heaven". Not all that far off from what some people believe. he's basically just praying that for bad people to recieve thier proper punishment for being bad in life. Without ranks in knowledge(religion) or some such he probably wouldn't know much about the keeper except he imprisons bad people, or some such twist or the truth. Of course if he learns the truth and then continues to pray that might be another matter.