Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Splendide 07-28-05, 12:39 AM	Had a re-read of the ECS the other day, and it mentions that Eberron, Khyber and Siberys were the three most powerful dragons, not the only ones. Presumably the others are the gods of the Sovereign Host? And are there any others unaccounted for?
Charles Phipps 07-28-05, 12:51 AM	Had a re-read of the ECS the other day, and it mentions that Eberron, Khyber and Siberys were the three most powerful dragons, not the only ones. Presumably the others are the gods of the Sovereign Host? And are there any others unaccounted for? I think the assumption is actually they are referring to "dragondom proper" rather than the Sovereign Host. Nothing has yet been shown to me that indicates the Sovereign Host is anything like the Dragonlance pantheon where they are all dragons. Instead, it seems we know very little about the Dragons of Eberron and its possible there's some pretty "epic" ones out there (Keith has already confirmed there's Demigod dragons on their continent). The hugest of their kind were just large enough to either be associated with the Khyber, Siberys, or Eberron or there was some serious "Ymir" like things going on and it was like Galactus Fighting Unicron when they died. The Sovereign Host is basically ambigious it seems for a reason. While we have not had confirmation that there are other gods other than them. We've got confirmation that people who worship things like the Lord of Blades also have spells....so its possible they dont' actually exist while there's evidence that the Three Great Dragons did.
AvonRekaes 07-28-05, 01:06 AM	I think the assumption is actually they are referring to "dragondom proper" rather than the Sovereign Host. Nothing has yet been shown to me that indicates the Sovereign Host is anything like the Dragonlance pantheon where they are all dragons. Instead, it seems we know very little about the Dragons of Eberron and its possible there's some pretty "epic" ones out there (Keith has already confirmed there's Demigod dragons on their continent). The hugest of their kind were just large enough to either be associated with the Khyber, Siberys, or Eberron or there was some serious "Ymir" like things going on and it was like Galactus Fighting Unicron when they died. The Sovereign Host is basically ambigious it seems for a reason. While we have not had confirmation that there are other gods other than them. We've got confirmation that people who worship things like the Lord of Blades also have spells....so its possible they dont' actually exist while there's evidence that the Three Great Dragons did. First of all, not all the Dragonlance gods were dragons. I forget his name, but the True Neutral god with the book, Gilean or something, he has only ever appeared as a human. It's been a while, so I can't name other gods I know of, but trust me they aren't all dragons. Bahamut and Tiamat are the only ones known to have dragon forms. On the other hand ALL of the Sovereign Host have draconic forms, or at the very least, are dragons in their oldest legends. Personally, I feel that the Sovreign Host is some sort of weird, humanocentric version of the draconic pantheon of standard DnD, but I havn't really done detailed check on all the inconsistencies that causes. However, I do think that the Sovereign Host= Other Progenitors theory is a good one.
Splendide 07-28-05, 01:12 AM	I seem to recall reading (either in the ECS or a Keith comment) that the Sovereign Host appears in various forms across all races. That says to me that there must be some proper substance to them....and if we're working with a mythology that dragons can become dirt, air or gemstones, there's a lot of room for the Host to be dragons too.
Charles Phipps 07-28-05, 01:16 AM	Forgive me, I believe that Gilean is the Dragon of Neutrality in one adventure where you must prevent his destruction. All the Dragonlance Gods are also linked to a draconic type. However, I leave it to Keith for a more confirmed answer as your theory is perfectly viable. I tend to think that it's just "one of those mysteries" that no one knows the answer too.
Fordel 07-28-05, 04:22 AM	I'm sure the Dragons certainly like to believe that the Host are asscended Dragons from the ancient past.
dracogen 07-28-05, 04:29 AM	In my game the Sovereign Host are not dragons or any other creatures either. They may sometimes appear as dragons, humans, dwarves, burning bushes etc. They do not however have a true form. I like Eberron's approach that dismissed the racial pantheons and statted the gods. If you want to kill a god, you don't do the deed with spells and swords. Also limiting the number of gods is a good idea that I approve of wholeheartedly. The host appeared as dragons because they wanted dragon worshippers back then when humans lived in caves and hunted dinosaurs.
Missekat 07-28-05, 05:01 AM	In my campaign there is a whole lot of doubt on wether they actually excist, or are just ideas. As they dont appear, and never bother to do ANYTHING to prove they exist, i treat them as most christians treat God of modern religion. Sure, we say we belive, but we dont think some bearded guy watch our every step, and rain thunder on our heads if we dont behave. Religion in my Eberron is more principles like "love thy neighbor" and "be just and fair", than any "real" gods. The only exception to this is The Traveller. Im not sure yet what he is and how he became what he is today, but he defenetely excist.
Missekat 07-28-05, 05:03 AM	I like the whole idea of the sove. host to be dragons though.. dragons powerful enough to be known and remembered as gods. Not as powerful as the prog. dragon though. I might use it still. In that case the reason for the silence of the gods could be that not even dragons THAT powerful lives forever, and they have long since died from old age. What is left is the legends and myths.
polt 07-28-05, 07:02 AM	In my campaign no one knows. Does the gods even exists? Perhaps, perhaps not.
Splendide 07-28-05, 07:20 AM	I just kind of assumed the Age of Dragons is pretty much like the Aboriginal Dreamtime. All sorts of spirits did things, and then for various reasons they turned into regular things, usually animals. As such, the reason why they may be the gods is because they weren't powerful enough! Eberron, Siberys and Khyber were powerful enough to be real things, and create real things, after the shattering of the world referred to in the ECS...what of the lesser (but still powerful) progenitors? They're not the ancestors of modern dragons, as Siberys is considered to be their creator. None of the big three are dead...so why would these others be? It makes a lot of sense to me that they exist purely as spirits, though even the term spirits gives them too much substance. But certainly, there's enough of them left to be the Host and Dark Six. Persistent echoes of a great thing perhaps. You could question their existence, but along those lines, you might as well question the existence of Khyber, Siberys and Eberron.
polt 07-28-05, 07:43 AM	Well, the whole Syberis, Khyber and Eberron thing IS legend. So it's up to the DM to decide, if he wants to, if it actually happend.
Deadguy 07-28-05, 08:09 AM	Well, the whole Syberis, Khyber and Eberron thing IS legend. So it's up to the DM to decide, if he wants to, if it actually happend. Quite! All we are told are legends about the origins of Eberron. No-one knows for sure what truly happened, and no-one can even prove if there are really any gods at all. That there are similar gods across multiple races says nothing about the nature of those gods. They are more likely equivalencies than actually factual statements. A dwarven follower of a god of war recognises the same god in the worship of a human. That's pretty typical in a polytheistic environment. It's one of the strongest elements of Eberron to me: no certain deities, only power, followers and events.
Splendide 07-28-05, 08:29 AM	Quite! All we are told are legends about the origins of Eberron. No-one knows for sure what truly happened, and no-one can even prove if there are really any gods at all.Are we talking in-game or meta-game here? To the best of my knowledge, pretty much every character does indeed know what truly happened, and that the three dragons is considered to be core fact. It's one of the strongest elements of Eberron to me: no certain deities, only power, followers and events.I guess I read it differently. Deities are certainly there; they're just not as interventionist as other cosmologies.
polt 07-28-05, 08:34 AM	Are we talking in-game or meta-game here? To the best of my knowledge, pretty much every character does indeed know what truly happened, and that the three dragons is considered to be core fact. I guess I read it differently. Deities are certainly there; they're just not as interventionist as other cosmologies. I disagree with everything you said :P A lot of people on Khovaire have heard the legend about Syberis, Eberron and Khyber. If they belive? If it's true? That's not to be known. I guess some belive, some don't. But I won't tell my players if it's true or not, I as a DM haven't even decided if it's true or not. Same goes for the gods. I'll never decide if they really exist or not. It's up to the individuel player to decide. It's lame for a player to make a character who doesn't belive in the gods, when I can say "NO NO, HE'S REAL! He's a lvl 40 Wizard/Cleric. LOOK! Here's his sheet!". No way, they may exist, they may not. No one will ever know.
Splendide 07-28-05, 08:41 AM	I disagree with everything you said :PI reckon thats because I'm talking about in-game, and you're talking about meta-game. It makes no difference to the athiest character if the gods are statted or not.
polt 07-28-05, 08:56 AM	Okay. Remove the stats part. INGAME, nobody knows if the legend about the three dragons are true or now. Some people may claim to know that IT IS TRUE! While other will tell you, it's all lies. And some just don't know. Same goes for the gods.
The White Sorcerer 07-28-05, 10:56 AM	None of the big three are dead... Except for Siberys.
makeshiftwings 07-28-05, 12:29 PM	I think the Soveriegn Host is similar to the Roman pantheon and how it subsumed a bunch of other religions like the Greek. The Romans basically went around and every time they found a cool sounding god from another religion, they said "Oh yeah, we've got one of them too", and changed its name and form slightly, or, if they already had a god that was similar, they'd tell the other religions "Oh yeah, we already know about that god, but we call him this, and he also does this". Kindof a gross oversimplification, but that's sort of how it worked. So the Soverign Host is a mostly human-centric religion that fused a lot of the ideas that originated with the ancient Draconic religion, incorporated a lot of beliefs from the Dwarven/Halfling/Gnomish religions, and mixed it all together to try and create a one-religion-fits-all that was inclusive of all the other cultures but still sort of showed themselves as the center of it all, just like the Romans.
nyysjan 07-28-05, 12:39 PM	Except for Siberys. or is said to be ;) but with gods omnipotent beings and the like, one can never be certain :D and even if Siberys is dead, He/She might not stay that way :rolleyes:
LordThasmudyan 07-28-05, 12:58 PM	In my campign the only "active" gods who have influenced anything is the The Fury, The Mockery, and The Traveler (also known as in my game as: The Burning Woman, The Skinless Man, and The Dark One). The way I see it is they are there just some of them don't care about mortals. As to the whole being able to worship the ground or a rock or a warforged and still gaining spells. Well I don't know. Mayhaps the world is so rich in both divine and arcane magic that one just has to belief (in something or someone) in order to gain the spells/prayers. As to the Dragons = Sovreign Host.There is a strong possiblity this could be true. What with how much we don't know about the beginning of the world aside from Kyber, Siberys and Eberron fighting. I will remain open-minded to this possibility.
Calibim 07-28-05, 03:27 PM	I seem to remember in the ECS there being 2 pages with star constellation of Tiamat and Bahamut (Sorry if I spelled those wrong). These are the only areas where these old skool “dragon gods” are mentioned but it leads one to believe that there more to the “Dragons - Sovereign Host – Progenitor Dragons” than meets the eye. (That last line brought to you by Captain Obvious and Readily Apparent Boy)
Siran Dunmorgan 07-28-05, 03:29 PM	To be perfectly honest, we don't have any evidence that the stories of the three Progenitors are true, either. I mean, really, c'mon! Where did the stories come from? Syberis was dead, or fragmented, Eberron had solidified, and Khyber was bound. Who was there to remember what actually happened? Even the Quor Tarai was different then, so none of the Quori really remember. Some of the daelkyr might remember, but they'd be as inclined to lie about it as tell the truth. The angels of Syrania might have memories of those days, but over the intervening ten million years, even they are likely to have been destroyed and regenerated several times. All of the important things happened ten million years ago—and not even the aboleths remember things that happened before they were spat out of Khyber. And why do the daelkyr, the gods, and the rajahs have similar names and attributes? We have a daelkyr recently described in one of the Dragonshards—Belashyrra. Creation of the lycanthropes is attributed to Bashalaera, a Rajah who specializes in animal attributes, as does the god Balinor! Is it possible that tales of the gods, the progenitors, the rajahs, and the daelkyr have, over the eons, been conflated with one another, so that latter-day scholarship cannot distinguish them? What if Eberron is not "the Dragon Between", but simply a lonely little planet, not millions, but billions of years old, having seen generations of life come and go like every other planet it its lonely universe? And the stories of titanic struggles between progenitor dragons are just… stories? —Siran Dunmorgan
Charles Phipps 07-28-05, 04:29 PM	What if Eberron is not "the Dragon Between", but simply a lonely little planet, not millions, but billions of years old, having seen generations of life come and go like every other planet it its lonely universe? And the stories of titanic struggles between progenitor dragons are just… stories? —Siran Dunmorgan It'd be boring as hell?
polt 07-28-05, 04:36 PM	I disagree. It's the world as we know it now that makes it cool. Not some old legend. Although the legend ARE cool. And we DON'T know if the dragons are dead, alive, exists or have ever existed.
Charles Phipps 07-28-05, 04:41 PM	I disagree. It's the world as we know it now that makes it cool. Not some old legend. Although the legend ARE cool. And we DON'T know if the dragons are dead, alive, exists or have ever existed. I disagree, in my mind making the Silver Flame the Voice of Eberron and accepting this ancient conflict as FACT is interesting. That they're just some story merely makes them no longer important in the setting and thus...I repeat...boring. Everything needs to have importance in D&D that's mythic. That's why it's good.
Siran Dunmorgan 07-28-05, 04:42 PM	What if Eberron is not "the Dragon Between", but simply a lonely little planet, not millions, but billions of years old, having seen generations of life come and go like every other planet it its lonely universe? And the stories of titanic struggles between progenitor dragons are just… stories?It'd be boring as hell? Why? It's not functionally different from the Eberron we have now, and that's one of the most exciting, dynamic environments I've ever seen in print. —Siran Dunmorgan
Charles Phipps 07-28-05, 04:47 PM	Why? It's not functionally different from the Eberron we have now, and that's one of the most exciting, dynamic environments I've ever seen in print. —Siran Dunmorgan No offense but that's a fallicious arguement. Let me draw you an example. Dragonlance is a great setting. Dragonlance has copper coins. Therefore, copper coins contribute to the fact Dragonlance is a great setting. It's a great setting but it's a great setting IN SPITE of this aspect than because of it There's nothing more "realistic" about it being a planet than a Dragon's body with the fact that the setting is already filled with all manner of whacky creatures. Also the existence of Eberron in truth adds plenty of interesting and whacky adventure hooks. So, please, by all means explain to me how it could make a good adventure or hook?
Siran Dunmorgan 07-28-05, 04:53 PM	I disagree, in my mind making the Silver Flame the Voice of Eberron and accepting this ancient conflict as FACT is interesting. That they're just some story merely makes them no longer important in the setting and thus...I repeat...boring. Everything needs to have importance in D&D that's mythic. That's why it's good. But the Silver Flame isn't the Voice of Eberron—it's the life-spirit of the couatl race who gave up their freedom in order to confine the rajahs. I'm not suggesting that the Dragon/Demon War didn't happen—that's well documented, and there are enough survivors and evidence from that era that we have at least the vague notion that things are more or less as they claim to be. The problem is before that—in the era before the millions of years of the Age of Demons. No one doubts that the rajahs exist—there are rakshasas in Ashtakala and night hags elsewhere who remember them specifically. But they can't tell us anything about the gods, except that some of the stories and some of the attributes of the gods are superficially similar to those of the rajahs. All I'm asking is—where did the stories about the progenitors come from, if they were all dead or quiescent before the other creatures who could really remember emerged? And why are the names and attributes of the gods so similar to those of the rajahs and daelkyr? I'm not saying that there isn't an amazing tale of mythic proportions underlying the creation of the world—I'm offering the possibility that it's not the one we've already heard. —Siran Dunmorgan
makeshiftwings 07-28-05, 05:03 PM	No offense but that's a fallicious arguement. Let me draw you an example. Dragonlance is a great setting. Dragonlance has copper coins. Therefore, copper coins contribute to the fact Dragonlance is a great setting. It's a great setting but it's a great setting IN SPITE of this aspect than because of it There's nothing more "realistic" about it being a planet than a Dragon's body with the fact that the setting is already filled with all manner of whacky creatures. Also the existence of Eberron in truth adds plenty of interesting and whacky adventure hooks. So, please, by all means explain to me how it could make a good adventure or hook? I disagree; one of the things I like about Eberron is that no one knows the truth of the gods. I hate that the gods in Dragonlance and FR walk around sipping tea with mortals every weekend and that "faith" in those worlds amounts to walking into the bar and saying hi to the god sitting across the bar from you. Gods walking around everywhere with no mystery at all to them is far more boring to me. Eberron is one of the only d&d worlds where you can actually create plots that have to do with legitimate faith, which is a pretty important part of all religions that have ever existed in the real world.
polt 07-28-05, 05:06 PM	I agree. In almost every other setting than Eberron, gods are just high lvl NPCs.
Siran Dunmorgan 07-28-05, 05:10 PM	No offense but that's a fallicious arguement. Let me draw you an example. Dragonlance is a great setting. Dragonlance has copper coins. Therefore, copper coins contribute to the fact Dragonlance is a great setting. It's a great setting but it's a great setting IN SPITE of this aspect than because of it There's nothing more "realistic" about it being a planet than a Dragon's body with the fact that the setting is already filled with all manner of whacky creatures. Also the existence of Eberron in truth adds plenty of interesting and whacky adventure hooks. So, please, by all means explain to me how it could make a good adventure or hook? Because it's unknown. That's the hook. When you've read the book cover to cover and you know it all by heart, and it all makes sense, and suddenly you discover that there was another book hidden in the binding that gives the story a whole new beginning: that's the hook. When you find out that the rabbit hole is a lot deeper than you thought—that's the hook. When you've read through all of the scholarship, when you've satisfied yourself that you know exactly why the progenitors collected the planes and attached them to Eberron—and then discover that you were all wrong. That there weren't any progenitors—but there is a universe out there for the taking. There are a thousand worlds still under the tentacle/thumbs of the daelkyr, waiting to be set free. That the engines(!) that bound the planes in place have relatively simple controls, and you can manipulate them (!!). That there were creatures of unimaginable grace who flew in the skies of the young world before the ancestors of the dragons had yet learnt to crawl, and did battle with creatures beside whom the rajahs are as kittens. And you ask how it could make a good adventure or hook… sad. Just sad. —Siran Dunmorgan
Charles Phipps 07-28-05, 05:29 PM	But the Silver Flame isn't the Voice of Eberron—it's the life-spirit of the couatl race who gave up their freedom in order to confine the rajahs. I did not know that. It was an example of what kind of stories can be told though. I'm not suggesting that the Dragon/Demon War didn't happen—that's well documented, and there are enough survivors and evidence from that era that we have at least the vague notion that things are more or less as they claim to be. The problem is before that—in the era before the millions of years of the Age of Demons. I have no problem with that. No one doubts that the rajahs exist—there are rakshasas in Ashtakala and night hags elsewhere who remember them specifically. But they can't tell us anything about the gods, except that some of the stories and some of the attributes of the gods are superficially similar to those of the rajahs. I don't mind the "Rajahs are maybe the Sovereign Host" idea actually. I mind the idea that there's a benefit to being more 'normal.' Part of my problem is basically we don't seem to have any disagreement on the nature of the gods here. I have no problem with the Sovereign Host and the Silver Flame but shouldn't we have plenty of other religions that either merged with the above or are still out there that are irreconsiable if it's more like Greyhawk and it's the priest's faith rather than the gods behind it? All I'm asking is—where did the stories about the progenitors come from, if they were all dead or quiescent before the other creatures who could really remember emerged? A very good question. You'd think that the religions would have vastly different takes on a story that benefits none of them. And why are the names and attributes of the gods so similar to those of the rajahs and daelkyr? An interesting question. Perhaps they were made in image of them like morgoth and the leves or perhaps something Cthulhey is going on.
Charles Phipps 07-28-05, 05:30 PM	Because it's unknown. That's the hook. When you've read the book cover to cover and you know it all by heart, and it all makes sense, and suddenly you discover that there was another book hidden in the binding that gives the story a whole new beginning: that's the hook. When you find out that the rabbit hole is a lot deeper than you thought—that's the hook. When you've read through all of the scholarship, when you've satisfied yourself that you know exactly why the progenitors collected the planes and attached them to Eberron—and then discover that you were all wrong. That there weren't any progenitors—but there is a universe out there for the taking. There are a thousand worlds still under the tentacle/thumbs of the daelkyr, waiting to be set free. That the engines(!) that bound the planes in place have relatively simple controls, and you can manipulate them (!!). That there were creatures of unimaginable grace who flew in the skies of the young world before the ancestors of the dragons had yet learnt to crawl, and did battle with creatures beside whom the rajahs are as kittens. And you ask how it could make a good adventure or hook… sad. Just sad. —Siran Dunmorgan I don't get it, what does that have to do with anything? Of course there's going to be millions of other worlds, whether they are the result of other great dragons fighting or whether they are created some other method is the question here and which works better.
Liane the Wayfarer 07-28-05, 05:51 PM	Of course there's going to be millions of other worlds But how does your character know that? I like the fact that, on Eberron, you never have any solid evidence that what someone else is saying to you about the Gods and the nature of reality is true. Sure, the priest thinks he knows, he believes that when he was young, and he saw Balinor chase away the wolf that crept into his room, that that is evidence that the gods exist. But what if it was just his imagination? What if it was something else, a shifter or some other being? In Eberron, the really important mysteries can never be truly, completely unravelled - you just keep peeling back layers to find more layers beneath. It forms a nice contrast to some of the more superficial settings, where, when you scratch the surface, you just find more surface...
polt 07-28-05, 05:56 PM	Of course there's going to be millions of other worlds No! Only if you want there to be, and thing it has a purpose! I see no way of telling if there's other worlds out there or not. Except maybe for the Daelkyr, which are known as "Destroyer of worlds", so there might be some. But this is fantasy, not the real world. Perhaps Eberron is the only exisiting planet ever, with the only moons and the only sun.
makeshiftwings 07-28-05, 06:14 PM	I don't get it, what does that have to do with anything? Of course there's going to be millions of other worlds, whether they are the result of other great dragons fighting or whether they are created some other method is the question here and which works better. What he's trying to say is that it's the mystery of the unknown and the PCs being the first to figure it out which makes it interesting. If in your Eberron, "everybody knows" that the progenitors are real, the gods exist, and "of course there are a million other worlds", then it's not very mysterious.
Charles Phipps 07-28-05, 06:21 PM	What he's trying to say is that it's the mystery of the unknown and the PCs being the first to figure it out which makes it interesting. If in your Eberron, "everybody knows" that the progenitors are real, the gods exist, and "of course there are a million other worlds", then it's not very mysterious. Touche. I concede on this end.
Splendide 07-28-05, 07:26 PM	I still don't think my point is being understood, as regards regular people knowing that Khyber vs Eberron vs Siberys being the origin of the world. If you ask a blacksmith who follows Onatar, he'll tell you that that is the true story. If you ask a cultist of the Dragon Below, he'll tell you that that is the true story. If you ask a paladin of the Silver Flame, there is certainly nothing contrary in his doctrine to say that this didn't happen, though he will underrate its importance. If you ask a kalashtar following the Path of Light, same again. As much as anyone knows anything in the world, they know that the world was created by these three dragons. I'm unaware of any groups actively questioning it in any of the source material I've seen. Now ultimately, they might even be wrong, but thats not what they all know. This isn't an atheistic world, it just doesn't have interventionist gods.
polt 07-29-05, 04:16 AM	Well, I still think any of the people you are mentioning could say something like: "So the legend is, but I don't know if I belive it." or "We all live on the belly of drrragon? Aye mate, if you belive that I have a crystal tower I'd like to sell you"
Missekat 07-29-05, 05:31 AM	The cool thing about the lack of solid evidence is that u can take the way faith, religion, myth and legend work in the "real world" and use it. U can implement plots from movies like Indiana Jones where no one knows for sure what is going to happend if someone drinks of the grail or opens the arc, and if its really the hand/tools of god, or some nasty demon. The mystery. I love it. U can have real crisis of faith when playing a cleric or paladin, without having people telling you: "But how can u question your faith in God when u saw him fix the plumbing of the Tower of the Ibis last month??" Faith is like in the real world. U can have atheists too. U can have evil people use whatever church for their own nasty scheming without having a god smiting them. Is that not cool? As for the legends and myths. I live in Denmark. I grew up with the tales of Thor and Odin. I "know" that Odin, Vile and Ve created the world out of the body of Ymer. But that doesnt make it true in an absolute sense. If i want to i can make the world of Eberron a normal planet, created like our own. Or i can make it an amalgam of the legend and reality, or even make the legend everyone belive into the propaganda of evil races trying to calm down the intelligent races. Or whatnot. The possibilities are numerous and that rocks! I can understand if it annoys some DM's that some of the very basic things like the gods existence isnt planned, mapped and written in stone, 'cos it makes it hard to determine if the decision they take will take the story of Eberron in another direction than the official. But please.. just enjoy the freedom! U have all the ideas, the inspiration and the rough outline of a truly amazing setting.. u just have to fill in the blanks yourself. Or let them stand and them wing it if need arise. And that is exactly how i want my setting to be.
Splendide 07-29-05, 05:37 AM	Well, I still think any of the people you are mentioning could say something like: "So the legend is, but I don't know if I belive it." or "We all live on the belly of drrragon? Aye mate, if you belive that I have a crystal tower I'd like to sell you" Absolutely, they could. But, lets not lose sight of the fact that the majority most likely wouldn't, judging from what material we have been provided with.
Splendide 07-29-05, 05:41 AM	I live in Denmark. I grew up with the tales of Thor and Odin. I "know" that Odin, Vile and Ve created the world out of the body of Ymer.No, you don't. Your upbringing is tainted by science. What you do consider yourself to know is that the earth spins around the sun, gravity pulls you to hold you down, and that light is both a particle and a wave. Same thing on Eberron. From all we can see, Ebberon+Siberys+Khyber are taken as being fact. I haven't read of any factions disputing this, or offering alternate creation myths. If i want to i can make the world of Eberron a normal planet, created like our own. Or i can make it an amalgam of the legend and reality, or even make the legend everyone belive into the propaganda of evil races trying to calm down the intelligent races. Or whatnot. The possibilities are numerous and that rocks!Yep. Though really, you can do that with any game world, if you're changing big chunks of the setting as written.
polt 07-29-05, 05:48 AM	Same thing on Eberron. From all we can see, Ebberon+Siberys+Khyber are taken as being fact. I haven't read of any factions disputing this, or offering alternate creation myths. I strongly disagree. Pick up your ECS and look at page 129. "Mytholgy suggests that the three parts correspond to three great dragons of legendary times" I agree that most people on Khovaire have heard the legend, but do not think it's common fact. It is legend, it is mytholgy. Some people will belive it, some will not. And BTW, Missekat, I'm from denmark to. Hej med dig!
Calibim 07-29-05, 05:33 PM	Schooling in Khoviare, to a certian level, is free to those that can get to it. This is per the ECS. This means that if you are in a village or town or city you go to school when your young and then go on to apprentace some where else, or if your family has money/You have a patron/etc. you can go on to one of the Univeristies. Now that being the case, when these kids ask the questions kids ask the teacher will answer it. And they will give the answer there teacher gave them. So when a kid ask "how did we get here?" the answer is going to be the creationism theory of Ebberon. This would explian why this theory is so wide spread ans widely believed. Just some thoughts to throw in to the soup.....
polt 07-29-05, 05:35 PM	Of course I think it's very likely that many peasents won't send their children to school, but rather have them working to supply a poor family. Of course there are other ways to get the legend told. Like an old weird looking man in an Tavern, telling tales about the Dragon above and it's fights against it's dragon below.
Splendide 07-30-05, 04:06 AM	I strongly disagree. Pick up your ECS and look at page 129. "Mytholgy suggests that the three parts correspond to three great dragons of legendary times" You got that far, so why didn't you read the next sentence? "This figurative interpretation makes its way into religion, philosophy, and folklore, and every culture has a version of the legend of the creator dragons." I agree that most people on Khovaire have heard the legend, but do not think it's common fact.But where are you getting that second part from? I'm not seeing anywhere that people don't consider it fact.
polt 07-30-05, 05:52 AM	But where are you getting that second part from? I'm not seeing anywhere that people don't consider it fact. I'm not seeing anywhere saying it is?
makeshiftwings 07-30-05, 04:02 PM	I guess it depends on how you interperet the descriptions of faith and religion in Eberron. I guess it doesn't specifically say there are atheists in the world, but I certainly took it to mean that. They do talk about "scholarly debates" among whether or not certain aspects of the gods are real or science-based (Lair of the Keeper, for instance). It always seemed to me that the intention was that there are a lot of scholars who see the myths as nothing more than myths, and that there are wizards who would say "Yes, the power of the Eberron shard comes from the delicate resonance of its crystalline structure interacting with their coplanar state of flux..." rather than "Eberron crystals are magic because they come from the belly of a big dragon". I see religion in Eberron, due to the lack of any factual evidence of gods, to be similar to Earth's religions: there are certainly some people who take their religion entirely as fact, some who see the stories as somewhat true but more important for what they represent than any actual fact behind them, and some who don't believe it at all or only feign belief when Christmas rolls around. I think the fact that ECS doesn't go into detail about the agnostics and casual religious folks is because they're a pretty boring group; a determined fanatic cult that follows its religion to the letter is a far more interesting adversary or ally than some people who only sort of believe in the gods and mostly go about their daily lives without thinking about it much.
KP91 07-30-05, 04:56 PM	I don't feel like reading all the posts to see if this was mentioned before, but the gnome who started Korranberg library started it for two reasons. To prove all the Sovereign Host were dragons and to replace Aureon as God of Knowledge. And it makes sence. Vol=Half-dragon, Silver Flame started by a coatl (to help the dragons and they do look similar to dragons), and several of the Dark Six fit the profile of a dragon (Keeper= Dragons like to keep hordes of treasure, this dragon's treaure are souls, Shadow= Dragons like magic, Travelar= Some dragons can shapechange, ect).
Missekat 07-30-05, 05:08 PM	I see religion in Eberron, due to the lack of any factual evidence of gods, to be similar to Earth's religions: there are certainly some people who take their religion entirely as fact, some who see the stories as somewhat true but more important for what they represent than any actual fact behind them, and some who don't believe it at all or only feign belief when Christmas rolls around. I agree so completely that it almost hurts :P And Hej tilbage Polt :cool:
nyysjan 07-30-05, 05:32 PM	i'd see the atheists and agnostics as a small fringe group found mostly among the well educated populace wizards, artificers and so on and even among them they would not constitute a majority, a significant minority at most. the peasants would still be religious and supersticious (probably wrote that wrong) if those two are related is anybodys gues and the ECS doesn't mention a dragon form for the Traveller, he doesn't seem to be part of the pantheon at all except by association not related as others seem to be where did he come from why did he come who the hell is he anyway it ads to the mystery (my favority god (who might not even exist) in Eberron)
polt 07-30-05, 05:40 PM	it ads to the mystery (my favority god (who might not even exist) in Eberron) Well, maybe none of the gods exist :)
nyysjan 07-30-05, 05:56 PM	Well, maybe none of the gods exist :) so they are just like any real world religion :D (and you can see how succesfull and popular they are :P )
KP91 07-30-05, 06:14 PM	where did he come from why did he come who the hell is he anyway it ads to the mystery (my favority god (who might not even exist) in Eberron) It has a good chance of being a she, Sora Kell is thought to be the Traveller. Many of the stories of the traveller are also stories of Sora Kell and she does travell around the planes.
Aris Stormdragon 07-31-05, 08:50 AM	Edit: Basically, I agree with what makeshiftwings said. Note to self: In the future. remember to read the entire thread before posting. Whoopsies. ....and it was like Galactus Fighting Unicron when they died. That is a great visual.
Darrek 07-31-05, 09:32 PM	I seem to remember in the ECS there being 2 pages with star constellation of Tiamat and Bahamut (Sorry if I spelled those wrong). These are the only areas where these old skool “dragon gods” are mentioned but it leads one to believe that there more to the “Dragons - Sovereign Host – Progenitor Dragons” than meets the eye. Actually, I had that misconception too. If you look around in that section, you can find that the entire old school dragon pantheon is still out there and being worshipped by the dragons of Argonessen. Not only that, but they are recognizable constellations in the night sky. As to the original poster's question, I agree that the host must be progenitors on par with the Big 3. If you add the Big 3 plus all the Sovereigns and Dark Six with described dragon forms, you come up with a particular, significant number... 13... And of course, to fit the Eberron pattern, one is "missing" or in this case, The Shadow is nothing more than the shadow of one of the Sovereigns (Aureon?)
The White Sorcerer 07-31-05, 09:48 PM	If you look around in that section, you can find that the entire old school dragon pantheon is still out there and being worshipped by the dragons of Argonessen. Really. Point me to the reference. If you add the Big 3 plus all the Sovereigns and Dark Six with described dragon forms, you come up with a particular, significant number... 13... More like 17, actually.
Siran Dunmorgan 07-31-05, 09:55 PM	Really. Point me to the reference. The table on page 130 of the Eberron Campaign Setting, entitled "Constellations (Gods of the Dragons)." Note that this does not state—but does imply—that these gods are revered by the dragons. —Siran Dunmorgan
Darrek 08-01-05, 10:02 AM	Thanks Siran, for covering the constellation issue. Really. Point me to the reference. More like 17, actually. Working this up on the fly... Arawai = bronze : 1 Aureon = blue : 2 Balinor = green : 3 Boldrei = copper : 4 Dol Arrah = red : 5 Dol Dorn = silver : 6 Kol Korran = white : 7 Olladra = black : 8 Onatar = brass : 9 Fury = "snakelike wyrm of Khyber" Keeper = skeletal dragon : 10 Mockery = half-fiend red : 11 Shadow = shadow dragon : 12 Traveler = "consumate shapeshifter" Aha. Now I remember how I reached my obviously incorrect conclusion. I discounted the Shadow as nothing more than a shadow, and misread the Mockery as a half-red fiend. From there, add 3 progenitors, and with the Keeper being all skeletal like, my theory arose. Now, I think I'll just slink off to the shadows and count the number of times the Blood of Vol is mentioned in each sourcebook I own...
a_psh 08-01-05, 10:53 AM	Fury = "snakelike wyrm of Khyber" That might be a reference to Deep Dragons (see Monsters of Faerun, which is worth referencing for the Shadow Dragon). They have an alternate snakey form.
AvonRekaes 08-02-05, 03:39 PM	Pretty sure Shadow Dragons (and maybe Deep Dragons) are fully updated to 3.5 in the Draconomicon. (Along with the Fang dragons).