Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SSj3goblin 02-19-07, 10:31 AM	So I finished reading The Gates of Night yesterday while I was on my 10 hours shift (:weep: ) and I will post my comments: Overall, the dreaming dark was a better series than Marked for death, even though the writing style was, to my taste, inferior, the story was still more interesting. My main problem with that trilogy (and just like the Marked for death trilogy, do I see a pattern here?) is that some events/parts of the story take WAY TOO LONG and just seem to drag on the storyline. The sharn part of the story barely had had meaning to the plot (Well, I know it does but not in a way that deserved a whole book just to introduce flashbacks and mysteries) that made it look like the series only started at book 2. The Dal Quor part was supposed to the climax of the series but it looked "rushed" and unfinished. That was a real anti-climax. What should have been the pinnacle of the book was a disapointement to me. And that leads me to TOO MUCH THELANIS. It seems to me as If all the the space Thelanis took could've went to Dal Quor instead. My last complaint about the ending: Too heroic, everything ends so well (with a deus ex machina, making it even worse) and the heroes defeat a titanic army of 350 000 years old nigthmare creatures, :rolleyes: ... If at least, Daine had been caught in Dal Quor, that would have been a nice twist of events (The lost mark series had the same problem, Everyone's happy in the sunshine ending). I mean, I thought Eberron was all "NOIR" and "gray", but there was no grayness in that book, no real ambiguity (Even lakasthai betraying Daine was not really ambiguous since she only went from on extreme to another). Even the ECS says "Stories don't always end well"... Well, in the Eberron novels, it seems they do, and that's really the main problem i have with the Eberron lines, they feel like children stories. On the good part though (I don't want this to turn into a rant): This trilogy has more "meat and bones" than the lost mark, and gives a nice insight into Sharn, Xen'drik, the drows and Dal'Quor.At least Keith Baker had the courage to "kill" one of his characters and that was unexpected, but in a good way. The characters were interesting too, had their misteries intreging when it was not overdone. Shira and Pierce were one of the most interesting duo I ever read in a book. Too bad she's turned into an evil nightmare now. Lei was "meh", her lectures were interesting but she seemed to get angry all the time. Also, here mistery was the strangest, what is she exactly? A really advanced living construct? The book is not really clear. Overall, it's still a good trilogy despite its flaws, i'd give it 8/10. the best Dungeon and dragon related series i've ever read (expect maybe for Kendermore ;) ).
tallric_kruush 02-19-07, 11:40 AM	So I finished reading The Gates of Night yesterday while I was on my 10 hours shift (:weep: ) and I will post my comments: You might want to copy and move your comments over to the novel discussion thread in this same general discussion board.
The Dreaming Duck 02-19-07, 12:27 PM	the heroes defeat a titanic army of 350 000 years old nigthmare creatures... But to be fair, they DON'T. They don't defeat that army on any level. They don't fight the Quori. And they don't DESTROY the quori - all they do is stall them. They prevent them from opening gates to Eberron. But the quori are still there, still working in Sarlona. It's like Raiders of the Lost Ark - Indiana Jones doesn't "defeat the Nazis", but he stops this particular scheme. It's not as if they waded into the midst of the army and took them out one on one. They snuck past them and broke their secret weapon. It's a heroic action, but hardly superhuman. What sort of victory would have seemed more realistic to you? If at least, Daine had been caught in Dal Quor, that would have been a nice twist of events (The lost mark series had the same problem, Everyone's happy in the sunshine ending). Wow, you're the first person I've seen posting complaining about this being a happy ending. You REALLY believe that's Daine in the epilogue? * The last time we saw Daine, Jode says "You're trapped in Dal Quor." * Thelania promises Daine "You'll never see me again." * When Lei wakes up, Xu'sasar's been knocked out, Kin is gone, Daine's wearing the scabbard, and he's in what looks like a SUMMONING CIRCLE. * Lei does her little trick and he wakes up and says "It's good to be home." Do you REALLY think that's the first thing Daine would say under the circumstances? I'd expect him to either say "Where's Jode", or to grab her and kiss her. To me, it seems pretty clear that Daine HAS been trapped in Dal Quor, and we're left with something else - who knows what! - in Daine's body. Is it Lakashtai? The Sleeper? Something else entirely? The common complaint I've seen on the boards is that it's not right to end the series on such a huge cliffhanger... not so much about it being a happy ending. I mean, I thought Eberron was all "NOIR" and "gray"... It's also pulp, and this was much heavier on the pulp side. The noir elements tied to things like working with Alina and such. But yes, it was MUCH more Raiders of the Lost Ark towards the end. Even the ECS says "Stories don't always end well"... Again, it's pretty clear to me that this story HASN'T ended well - we just don't know how bad it is yet. Likewise, Pierce has lost Shira - not as serious as Jode dying, but death of a character nonetheless. Shira and Pierce were one of the most interesting duo I ever read in a book. Too bad she's turned into an evil nightmare now. Agreed, though at the same time it's that "story doesn't end well" element. Personally, I really liked Thelanis... but I do agree, it would have been nice to see more of Dal Quor!
SSj3goblin 02-19-07, 01:00 PM	Wow, you're the first person I've seen posting complaining about this being a happy ending. You REALLY believe that's Daine in the epilogue? * The last time we saw Daine, Jode says "You're trapped in Dal Quor." * Thelania promises Daine "You'll never see me again." * When Lei wakes up, Xu'sasar's been knocked out, Kin is gone, Daine's wearing the scabbard, and he's in what looks like a SUMMONING CIRCLE. * Lei does her little trick and he wakes up and says "It's good to be home." Do you REALLY think that's the first thing Daine would say under the circumstances? I'd expect him to either say "Where's Jode", or to grab her and kiss her. To me, it seems pretty clear that Daine HAS been trapped in Dal Quor, and we're left with something else - who knows what! - in Daine's body. Is it Lakashtai? The Sleeper? Something else entirely? The common complaint I've seen on the boards is that it's not right to end the series on such a huge cliffhanger... not so much about it being a happy ending. PAGE 353 "Daine clasped his hand, and the two of them faded away". From that sentence I guessed that the summoning circle was from someone (Lashatar?) who decided to bring Daine's soul back in his body, hence the summoning circle. But yeah, your interpretation makes more sense than mine. I'm not a native english speaker so I sometimes misinterpret what I read (but rarely :D ) . But wheter or not it's Daine. My main complain stays: Too much deus ex machina (they didn't sneak up on the Quori's, they got teleported somehow in a dream by Lei's mother IIRC), too much "mysteries" (Litteraly everyone has a secret agenda). This would probably make perfect sence in someone's campaign, but fiction should be a little more "coherent" in a sense. It always amount to the same thing, as much as I love Eberron, it just tries too hard. It tries too hard to be "pulp" and "noir". Those are, in my eyes, Keith's works major flaws. (and going off topic: What is pulp? I mean, I know the whole deal about the cheap paper comics/magazines from the beggining of the 20th century. But what makes Eberron so Pulpy? Aren't all D&D games, By definition "pulp"? I see this word thrown around a lot but without any real forethought it seems.) Also, I still think the Series is a must read to get a good feel of the setting and the artwork is wonderful (especially the Tsucora quori on the cover of the Gates of Night).
The Dreaming Duck 02-19-07, 01:39 PM	What is pulp? ... what makes Eberron so Pulpy? Aren't all D&D games, By definition "pulp"? I see this word thrown around a lot but without any real forethought it seems. All D&D games can be pulpy. Eberron was designed to support pulpy games. What is pulp? How does Eberron support it? In my mind, there are a few key features. Heroes are larger than life. Doc Savage. Conan. Pulp heroes stand head and shoulders above the people around them. They are remarkable individuals who achieve things no one else can. In Eberron, this is achieved by giving PCs action points and by emphasizing that most NPCs use NPC classes and are typically low-level. Thus, even a low to mid-level character is a remarkable person - as opposed to FR, where you can't throw a rock without hitting an 18th level wizard. Over the top action. This is really in the hands of DM and players. But action is SUPPOSED to be as dramatic as possible; check Keith Baker's Swashbuckling dragonshard for further ideas on this. Yes, this could appen in any game; what Eberron does is provide action points, in order to ALLOW heroes to make the impossible possible. Pulp Heroes simply get away with more than normal people - they DO get the deus ex machina. Action points are an in-game representation of that. Exotic locations. Ancient ruins! Lost cities! Alien horrors! Again, Eberron is a SPECTRUM of pulp and noir. Sharn? More noir. Xen'drik? Pure pulp. Forgotten civilizations, savage drow, relics of great power (Ark of the Covenant, anyone?)... that's what Xen'drik is about. If you want the Maltese Falcon, run your game in Sharn. If you want Raiders of the Lost Ark, do it in Xen'drik. And as you say, ANY game can do this; Eberron was just designed with specifically pulpy regions in place. Recurring villains. This one's entirely in the DM's hands, but it's suggested there in the ECS. The villain who makes the miraculous escape and returns to fight another day - in other words, the villain who ALSO has deus ex machina on his side - is a pulp staple. To a large degree, deus ex machina IS a pulp theme; look back to the serials, and almost everyone ends with a cliffhanger followed by a remarkable (and often implausible) escape. It may be a flaw to attempt to replicate this in D&D or fantasy fiction, but I think that's why you see it there.
tallric_kruush 02-19-07, 02:00 PM	From that sentence I guessed that the summoning circle was from someone (Lashatar?) who decided to bring Daine's soul back in his body, hence the summoning circle. SPOILERS Kin would be my guess. Remember "the Bier of the Sleeper", whose face was there but no one could quite bring into focus? And the sleeper's scabbard, which Kin was carrying? I'm pretty sure that, if Xu had been able to make out the sleeper's features, she'd have been looking at Daine. As to Daine waking and saying "it's good to be home," I would think he'd been travelling throughout the fringes of Dal Quor for some time with Jode. He wasn't disoriented and looking for Jode because it wasn't some sudden and shocking awakening from his perspective. You have to remember time runs much faster in Dal Quor than in Eberron. Just my take on things. I should add that I loved the series. This and "The Dragon Below"were very good, in my opinion. I really wasn't impressed at all with "The Lost Mark". I won't air my complaints about it here, though.
The Dreaming Duck 02-19-07, 05:31 PM	Kin would be my guess. It's a logical choice, but I disagree. The thing about Kin is that he's a changeling. Lei KNOWS he's a changeling. Clearly something weird has happened while everyone was asleep. Unless they can figure out exactly what happened to Kin, I'd think the first thing Lei would do would be to punch out Daine and see what happened - after all, changelings revert to true form when unconscious. Now, you may mean that Kin has somehow merged with Daine... if so, that's certainly a different story. Remember "the Bier of the Sleeper", whose face was there but no one could quite bring into focus? And the sleeper's scabbard, which Kin was carrying? I'm pretty sure that, if Xu had been able to make out the sleeper's features, she'd have been looking at Daine. Interesting thought. I certainly think the Sleeper is a logical choice - I just see Kin facilitating that transition as opposed to merging with Daine. To me, it's all tied to the dragons. Between the "We'll never meet again" and the mystery of the missing Kin, I think Thelania was an active participant. However, the key to me is the conversation between Daine and the Draconic Eidolon. I don't have the book here, so I can't quote it exactly, but essentially, the Dragon(s) say: "Our business is not yet concluded. The way has been prepared. Take our gift, and walk this world once more"... and breathe on Daine. Afterwards, Daine feels this new sense of energy - the "dragonfire". This energy then vanishes after the defeat of Lakashtai... which is to say, the moment Daine is separated from his body. The Draconic Eidolon is, essentially, souls preserved after death. I think that Thelania was making a deal with the eidolon to release a soul it was holding (dragon? human?) - that Daine had been prepared to be a suitable vessel for this spirit ("The way has been prepared"), and Kin's actions with the circle and scabbard were the final preparations. When the dragons say "Take our gift", they're talking ABOUT Daine, not to him. The next question is what was involved in this "preparation". Just Kin's work? Or was the dragonmark a part of this? If so, was the death of Jode actually planned to produce this result? And if the preparations for the spirit's returned required a vessel with a Siberys-level aberrant dragonmark, what does that say? Anyhow, all just speculation. Kin or Lakashtai are equally valid possibilities.
Charles Phipps 02-19-07, 05:40 PM	Yeah, I think the idea that the ending was too heroic is completely nuts. Eberron is also the one setting where low level player characters MAKE A DIFFERENCE. It's not the setting where everyone good is supposed to lose. That was SUPPOSED to be Dark Sun (until Troy Denning made it the setting of genuine Hope----against the entire theme) and Ravenloft (where every Novel ended with the Dark Lord kicking their ass) Frankly, did you read the same book I did? Daine is now a freak of nature with a schizophrenic voice in his head, Pierce has murdered his own kind along with his only chance for love, Daine's girlfriend is a :censored: robot! Seriously, the heroes are :censored: every which way from Sunday!
Roland the Crownbreaker 02-19-07, 06:25 PM	You forgot to mention that they are stuck in Riedra, after all that they had done to unravel thier plans.
Charles Phipps 02-19-07, 06:27 PM	Yeah. They're heroes who get horribly screwed over as opposed to the usual "love interest and ticker tape parade" in Dragonlance. Let's face it, they saved all of Eberron from alien invasion and what's their reward? No one had any idea it was even going to happen
SSj3goblin 02-20-07, 10:12 AM	Yeah, I think the idea that the ending was too heroic is completely nuts. Eberron is also the one setting where low level player characters MAKE A DIFFERENCE. It's not the setting where everyone good is supposed to lose. That was SUPPOSED to be Dark Sun (until Troy Denning made it the setting of genuine Hope----against the entire theme) and Ravenloft (where every Novel ended with the Dark Lord kicking their ass) Frankly, did you read the same book I did? Daine is now a freak of nature with a schizophrenic voice in his head, Pierce has murdered his own kind along with his only chance for love, Daine's girlfriend is a :censored: robot! Seriously, the heroes are :censored: every which way from Sunday! Those two things are, in fact, my main complaints with the series. It's fun to have a setting where "normal" people can have a real influence on the world. But that's just taken too far, IMO. Reminds me of those early D&D game we played when we were 12 years old and we would save the world every session. And for the characters being in poor "conditions", that's overdone too, stripping the characters of their believabelity (sp?). That's what I didn't like about the books (and most Eberron supplements too), it just tries too hard. But of the feel I got of the setting from that series, I'd give the books a 9/10. That's what I was looking for in reading the novels anyways.
Charles Phipps 02-20-07, 11:38 AM	I must confess, it's mostly like my game to be honest. Where at 7th level, the characters blew up the Beholder Spelljammer fleet by sabotaging it rather than attempting to battle the Beholders directly. I think Keith is better having player characters sneak in and screw up the villains plans than big epic battles.