Just how evil are evil races? How justified is racism? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Just how evil are evil races? How justified is racism? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Charles Phipps
08-05-05, 11:21 PM Hello folks!

This is a double thread because the two are related in content but basically examines the role of both racism in the context of Eberron being justified and the nature of ethnicity as it relates to the Monstrous Manual.

Kobolds, Goblins, and even Orcs (DRUIDS) have been given something of a makeover but we know very little about them still largely.

Do they worship the Dark Six or are they primitive tribesman? Do they serve the Dragon Below or they have their own versions of the Sovereign Host? What about those of Droam vs. those of elsewhere.

I was wondering how much fear can be justified and in what races.
makeshiftwings
08-06-05, 12:11 AM I think from what we've seen so far, goblinoids tend towards evil, but not EVIL evil. So in general they may be greedy, rude, and ill-tempered, but not homicidal and violently xenophobic like they are in other worlds. Also, Eberron seems to imply that it's mostly a case of nurture vs nature: the goblin society in Darguun is pretty violent and poor, so the ones raised there tend towards banditry. But the goblinoids in the big cities tend to be relatively harmless.

As for racism, I think there is some, but it's mostly minor. Goblinoids are pretty pervaisve: House Deneith uses hobgoblin mercenaries all the time, and Sharn is full of goblins. So I don't think there's a "Goblins? Die!" belief like in Forgotten Realms, but the elite and wealthy probably think of the goblinoids of "lower class savages". There probably aren't many mobs of humans trying to kill the goblins in Sharn, but I also doubt that goblins get invited to the royal balls either.
Charles Phipps
08-06-05, 12:31 AM I'm alot more flexible in my views here than I have been in other threads and I largely think what you say makes sense makeshiftwings.

I think Keith is going with largely the assumption that no one is innately evil or good save those whom are basically embodied ideals. The Kalashtyr ARE the good/neutral Quori after all and we already know his embodiments of ideals opinions on most outsiders.

I'm somewhat less clear on religious matters though. While we know the basics seem to exist about many races....Kobolds are clannish, live in caves, and set traps....the details vary.

Would Goblins worship the Dark Six and have Devourers and Fury revered places because of their nature (and possibly their evil being the result of their being originally goblin gods) or would they worship their own version?

It's tough to decide.

LArgely it's a question of whether the Dark Six are always the enemy save for the really degenerate.
Hellcow
08-06-05, 01:07 AM I think Keith is going with largely the assumption that no one is innately evil or good save those whom are basically embodied ideals.
Correct. There are good goblins. If you check my Kech Volaar party on my website, they are mostly neutral. Inherently, goblins are no different from humans. In my opinion, racism in terms of actual SPECIES takes a back seat to bigotry based on nationality. I don't care whether or not you're an elf: what I care about is whether you're a Karrn elf or Thrane elf. City goblins are often despised for the same reason that beggars and homeless folks are often despised. It's not because they're EVIL - it's class conflict, and the people who spit on goblins may be just as likely to spit on a halfling beggar from Fallen. The difference is that people have a higher expectation that a goblin will BE a member of the underclass, because statistically there are more impoverished goblins than halflings. But again, it's not because of inherent evil - it's socio-economics. And in the case of Darguuls, it's fear and anger based on the "theft" of Darguun. Not all hobgoblins are evil: they believe that they had a right to their territory. What they did was in many ways no more evil than what any of the Five Nations did to each other: war is hell. But it can still lead to fear and suspicion.

I'm somewhat less clear on religious matters though. While we know the basics seem to exist about many races....Kobolds are clannish, live in caves, and set traps....the details vary.
Have you read the Kobold Dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050321a)? The iredar kobolds are more likely to be neutral than evil. The irvhir are violently xenophobic and this is the basis of their agressive behavior.

Would Goblins worship the Dark Six and have Devourers and Fury revered places because of their nature (and possibly their evil being the result of their being originally goblin gods) or would they worship their own version?
You need to consider what the gods represent. To take a few examples:
The Shadow "devotes its energy... to the corruption of nature." It creates monsters. To humans, that makes the Shadow an evil, scary god. To MONSTERS, it makes the Shadow a benevolent creator. A medusa gives thanks to the Shadow for granting her the gift of petrification. She does not fear the Shadow: she embraces the god as the source of her power.
For the sahuagin, the Devourer sinks the ships of the outsiders and sends their corpses and treasure down to the bottom where the sahuagin can pluck the wreckage clean. Most humans fear the Devourer: the sahuagin revere the god and revel in his blessings.
The Mockery is a war god who advocates treachery as a means to victory. Many people of ALL races - including humans - feel that the teachings of the Mockery are simply common sense, and the chivalrous ideals of Dol Arrah are foolish concepts that will result in defeat.
The Fury is a goddess of madness - but also of passion and inspiration. Consider the maenads of Greece as one example of her followers. But she is also worshipped by those who believe that passion is life, and must come before all things. Not all of her followers give into madness, and some of the greatest artists in all cultures are secretly followers of the Fury.
Like the Fury, the Traveler inspires people to new heights. It forces people to break their patterns, to stay on their toes. It lends cunning and wit to its followers. The doppelgangers and others who follow the Traveler see themselves as agents of change and evolution. The Traveler actually has a small, hidden following in House Cannith, based on its role as a deity of artifice and innovation; some say that it was the Traveler who truly created the warforged.
As page 250 of the ECS says, an Eberron campaign should force people to reconsider their views of alignment. "Evil" is not always cut and dried, and what's evil to one person or culture may be good to another. Humans who worship the Shadow may do so out of fear, or out of a desire to learn dark secrets. But for the medusa, the Shadow is the heroic creator - and it is Aureon who is reviled, for seeking to enforce his tyrannical ideals of "purity" on the world.
Charles Phipps
08-06-05, 01:44 AM Straight from the horse's mouth.

I like that Keith. A part of what I've noticed about Eberron is that it keeps the facts but twists them. In this case, a Tribe of Orcs might worship the Fury and Devourer as the "Gods of Evil" but essentially, its from their point of view to be quite beneficent entities.

...and none of the blatantcy of "Gruumash good, Corellon sucks"
Edymnion
08-06-05, 02:22 AM Yup, and even the Evil goblins and hobgoblins can be evil for a good reason.
The humans are running around all over THEIR old empire. They could be wanting to drive the humans (and elves, and dwarves, etc) out of Khorvaire so that they can rebuild their own civilization. They were here first, after all. They are Evil, however, for the same reason a corrupt priest of the Silver Flame would be evil. They are willing to do whatever they see as necissary to achieve their goals. And if that means the wholesale murder of men, women, and children (human/elven/dwarve/etc men women and children), so be it.

They are of Evil alignment, those kinds of goblinoids, but they have an honorable goal. To us, they're evil little backstabbers. To them, they're freedom fighters.

Heh, the minute you think something is cut and dry in Eberron is the minute you realize that somebody has set you up for a major plot twist ;)
Hellcow
08-06-05, 03:25 AM In this case, a Tribe of Orcs might worship the Fury and Devourer as the "Gods of Evil" but essentially, its from their point of view to be quite beneficent entities.
Bear in mind that many orcs worship variations of the Sovereign Host. Baalkan is a god of nature and the hunt, typically depicted as a fierce orc with the horns of a tribex. But his rituals are almost identical to those of Balinor. The orc says that the humans of Sharn simply don't realize that Baalkan is an orc, and that this Balinor is a confused reflection of the true god.

And, of course, the Gatekeepers and Cults of the Dragon Below are powerful forces among the orcs of the Shadow Marches.
Teron Gorefiend
08-06-05, 10:15 AM By the way, since goblins and their beliefs were specifically inquired about, it's worth noting that the Dhakaani are agnostic. However, many other goblins worship and Dark Six. I assume the Mockery is popular, and the Fury might be a popular patron among the Marguul.

What the heck, one can never read the Dragonshards too many times. This may be of interest. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050321a)
Hellcow
08-06-05, 12:31 PM However, many other goblins worship and Dark Six...
Though as a note, Lhesh Haruuc has encouraged the worship of the Sovereigns, and there are temples to Dol Dorn, Balinor, and Dol Arrah in Rukhaan Draal.
Ogre4Hire
08-06-05, 01:50 PM Eberron's take on alignment is, IMO, one of the absolutely coolest things about the world. The fact that orcs saved the world is pretty good, too.
nyysjan
08-06-05, 02:10 PM what i like about Eberron is that Dragons are, for once, shown as smart as they are by the rules, and that they cant be killed by any Tom Dick or Harry that just happened to get his hand on +1 Toothpick of Dragonsbane
PoeticJustice
08-06-05, 08:07 PM I like that Eberron is easy. The FRCS is, in my opinion, must be studied, while ECS reads almost like a comic book. There's something on every page that says: "Hey you! Take the hint!"

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 08-05-05, 11:21 PM	Hello folks! This is a double thread because the two are related in content but basically examines the role of both racism in the context of Eberron being justified and the nature of ethnicity as it relates to the Monstrous Manual. Kobolds, Goblins, and even Orcs (DRUIDS) have been given something of a makeover but we know very little about them still largely. Do they worship the Dark Six or are they primitive tribesman? Do they serve the Dragon Below or they have their own versions of the Sovereign Host? What about those of Droam vs. those of elsewhere. I was wondering how much fear can be justified and in what races.
makeshiftwings 08-06-05, 12:11 AM	I think from what we've seen so far, goblinoids tend towards evil, but not EVIL evil. So in general they may be greedy, rude, and ill-tempered, but not homicidal and violently xenophobic like they are in other worlds. Also, Eberron seems to imply that it's mostly a case of nurture vs nature: the goblin society in Darguun is pretty violent and poor, so the ones raised there tend towards banditry. But the goblinoids in the big cities tend to be relatively harmless. As for racism, I think there is some, but it's mostly minor. Goblinoids are pretty pervaisve: House Deneith uses hobgoblin mercenaries all the time, and Sharn is full of goblins. So I don't think there's a "Goblins? Die!" belief like in Forgotten Realms, but the elite and wealthy probably think of the goblinoids of "lower class savages". There probably aren't many mobs of humans trying to kill the goblins in Sharn, but I also doubt that goblins get invited to the royal balls either.
Charles Phipps 08-06-05, 12:31 AM	I'm alot more flexible in my views here than I have been in other threads and I largely think what you say makes sense makeshiftwings. I think Keith is going with largely the assumption that no one is innately evil or good save those whom are basically embodied ideals. The Kalashtyr ARE the good/neutral Quori after all and we already know his embodiments of ideals opinions on most outsiders. I'm somewhat less clear on religious matters though. While we know the basics seem to exist about many races....Kobolds are clannish, live in caves, and set traps....the details vary. Would Goblins worship the Dark Six and have Devourers and Fury revered places because of their nature (and possibly their evil being the result of their being originally goblin gods) or would they worship their own version? It's tough to decide. LArgely it's a question of whether the Dark Six are always the enemy save for the really degenerate.
Hellcow 08-06-05, 01:07 AM	I think Keith is going with largely the assumption that no one is innately evil or good save those whom are basically embodied ideals. Correct. There are good goblins. If you check my Kech Volaar party on my website, they are mostly neutral. Inherently, goblins are no different from humans. In my opinion, racism in terms of actual SPECIES takes a back seat to bigotry based on nationality. I don't care whether or not you're an elf: what I care about is whether you're a Karrn elf or Thrane elf. City goblins are often despised for the same reason that beggars and homeless folks are often despised. It's not because they're EVIL - it's class conflict, and the people who spit on goblins may be just as likely to spit on a halfling beggar from Fallen. The difference is that people have a higher expectation that a goblin will BE a member of the underclass, because statistically there are more impoverished goblins than halflings. But again, it's not because of inherent evil - it's socio-economics. And in the case of Darguuls, it's fear and anger based on the "theft" of Darguun. Not all hobgoblins are evil: they believe that they had a right to their territory. What they did was in many ways no more evil than what any of the Five Nations did to each other: war is hell. But it can still lead to fear and suspicion. I'm somewhat less clear on religious matters though. While we know the basics seem to exist about many races....Kobolds are clannish, live in caves, and set traps....the details vary. Have you read the Kobold Dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050321a)? The iredar kobolds are more likely to be neutral than evil. The irvhir are violently xenophobic and this is the basis of their agressive behavior. Would Goblins worship the Dark Six and have Devourers and Fury revered places because of their nature (and possibly their evil being the result of their being originally goblin gods) or would they worship their own version? You need to consider what the gods represent. To take a few examples: The Shadow "devotes its energy... to the corruption of nature." It creates monsters. To humans, that makes the Shadow an evil, scary god. To MONSTERS, it makes the Shadow a benevolent creator. A medusa gives thanks to the Shadow for granting her the gift of petrification. She does not fear the Shadow: she embraces the god as the source of her power. For the sahuagin, the Devourer sinks the ships of the outsiders and sends their corpses and treasure down to the bottom where the sahuagin can pluck the wreckage clean. Most humans fear the Devourer: the sahuagin revere the god and revel in his blessings. The Mockery is a war god who advocates treachery as a means to victory. Many people of ALL races - including humans - feel that the teachings of the Mockery are simply common sense, and the chivalrous ideals of Dol Arrah are foolish concepts that will result in defeat. The Fury is a goddess of madness - but also of passion and inspiration. Consider the maenads of Greece as one example of her followers. But she is also worshipped by those who believe that passion is life, and must come before all things. Not all of her followers give into madness, and some of the greatest artists in all cultures are secretly followers of the Fury. Like the Fury, the Traveler inspires people to new heights. It forces people to break their patterns, to stay on their toes. It lends cunning and wit to its followers. The doppelgangers and others who follow the Traveler see themselves as agents of change and evolution. The Traveler actually has a small, hidden following in House Cannith, based on its role as a deity of artifice and innovation; some say that it was the Traveler who truly created the warforged. As page 250 of the ECS says, an Eberron campaign should force people to reconsider their views of alignment. "Evil" is not always cut and dried, and what's evil to one person or culture may be good to another. Humans who worship the Shadow may do so out of fear, or out of a desire to learn dark secrets. But for the medusa, the Shadow is the heroic creator - and it is Aureon who is reviled, for seeking to enforce his tyrannical ideals of "purity" on the world.
Charles Phipps 08-06-05, 01:44 AM	Straight from the horse's mouth. I like that Keith. A part of what I've noticed about Eberron is that it keeps the facts but twists them. In this case, a Tribe of Orcs might worship the Fury and Devourer as the "Gods of Evil" but essentially, its from their point of view to be quite beneficent entities. ...and none of the blatantcy of "Gruumash good, Corellon sucks"
Edymnion 08-06-05, 02:22 AM	Yup, and even the Evil goblins and hobgoblins can be evil for a good reason. The humans are running around all over THEIR old empire. They could be wanting to drive the humans (and elves, and dwarves, etc) out of Khorvaire so that they can rebuild their own civilization. They were here first, after all. They are Evil, however, for the same reason a corrupt priest of the Silver Flame would be evil. They are willing to do whatever they see as necissary to achieve their goals. And if that means the wholesale murder of men, women, and children (human/elven/dwarve/etc men women and children), so be it. They are of Evil alignment, those kinds of goblinoids, but they have an honorable goal. To us, they're evil little backstabbers. To them, they're freedom fighters. Heh, the minute you think something is cut and dry in Eberron is the minute you realize that somebody has set you up for a major plot twist ;)
Hellcow 08-06-05, 03:25 AM	In this case, a Tribe of Orcs might worship the Fury and Devourer as the "Gods of Evil" but essentially, its from their point of view to be quite beneficent entities. Bear in mind that many orcs worship variations of the Sovereign Host. Baalkan is a god of nature and the hunt, typically depicted as a fierce orc with the horns of a tribex. But his rituals are almost identical to those of Balinor. The orc says that the humans of Sharn simply don't realize that Baalkan is an orc, and that this Balinor is a confused reflection of the true god. And, of course, the Gatekeepers and Cults of the Dragon Below are powerful forces among the orcs of the Shadow Marches.
Teron Gorefiend 08-06-05, 10:15 AM	By the way, since goblins and their beliefs were specifically inquired about, it's worth noting that the Dhakaani are agnostic. However, many other goblins worship and Dark Six. I assume the Mockery is popular, and the Fury might be a popular patron among the Marguul. What the heck, one can never read the Dragonshards too many times. This may be of interest. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050321a)
Hellcow 08-06-05, 12:31 PM	However, many other goblins worship and Dark Six... Though as a note, Lhesh Haruuc has encouraged the worship of the Sovereigns, and there are temples to Dol Dorn, Balinor, and Dol Arrah in Rukhaan Draal.
Ogre4Hire 08-06-05, 01:50 PM	Eberron's take on alignment is, IMO, one of the absolutely coolest things about the world. The fact that orcs saved the world is pretty good, too.
nyysjan 08-06-05, 02:10 PM	what i like about Eberron is that Dragons are, for once, shown as smart as they are by the rules, and that they cant be killed by any Tom Dick or Harry that just happened to get his hand on +1 Toothpick of Dragonsbane
PoeticJustice 08-06-05, 08:07 PM	I like that Eberron is easy. The FRCS is, in my opinion, must be studied, while ECS reads almost like a comic book. There's something on every page that says: "Hey you! Take the hint!"