Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wolfwood2 03-28-06, 03:54 PM	I know there are some posters on this board who have played around with having the quori start acting much more directly. Having the Inspired launch an invasion of Khorvaire, starting a new war, that sort of thing. The usual tough bit with that is justifying why the quori are acting so unlike their usual subtle selves. They're all about manipulation and plans that take decades to come to fruition, right? What could change that? Well, it hit me. It's so simple. What if all of a sudden, they ran out of time? Imagine, if you will, a vast meeting chanmber within the Plane of Dreams. The entire Quori race has been assembled to hear terrible news. The scientist J'orel skitters to the center of the chamber. "Gentle-quori, after repeated tests and confirmations, there can be no doubt. The signs are unmistakeable. The Dream of the Age is becoming unstable. A.... transformation is upon us." Pause to allow the crowd's horrifed chittering as they absorb this. "Within ten years, unless something is done, all that we are will be gone. The Wheel will turn and our civilization will be wiped out. Only one last hope remains us." A giant illusionary map of Khorvaire appears in the chamber. Multiple points of sparkling light appear on it. "Within Khorvaire on the world of Eberron lie ancient sites from the Age of Demons. If we can seize control of these sites, our scientists believe we can use the energies within to halt the turning of the wheel. The time for subtley has passed. We must seize control of Khovaire now.... "Or we and everything we love is surely doomed." (Heh.)
Vharuck 03-28-06, 04:24 PM	And it wouldn't be a guaranteed win (like the invasion they might currently be planning to happen centuries down the road), because they would be shaken by a brand new fact: they have become, in effect, mortal. Unless they do something, they know they will die. Pretty obvious, but you have to remember that this is a thought and outlook that no Quori has ever experienced before. Some crazy plans might go off, and even some backstabbing. I dunno, just droning on myself here.
Roxlimn 03-28-06, 07:40 PM	Actually, the obliteration of Cyre proves that Khorvaire is a continent that's developing WMDs. It's incumbent upon the Quori to invade to protect themselves.
Always-Late 03-28-06, 08:25 PM	Actually, the obliteration of Cyre proves that Khorvaire is a continent that's developing WMDs.Only, of course, they don't know it.
Charles Phipps 03-28-06, 08:47 PM	But yes, in the face of guaranteed FAILURE of all their subtle plans, the Quori will ACT Sort of like Wolfram and hart.
DarthMidget 03-28-06, 11:28 PM	Well a Riedran invasion is a great storyline. Of course I don't think the Quori would necessarily have to be faced with total disaster to engage in such an action. While the previous scenario would guarantee an attack I think there are other ways in which to justify it. To me an interesting question would be what way could an invasion be justified without extreme circumstances? We know that, obviously, the Quori want to be overlords of all of Eberron. That is their end goal. Riedra is theirs and at least for the time being Argonnessen is not within their power to seize. Xen'drik is also not an ideal place to attack since the inherent dangers of the continent would drain the Quori of their human slaves. As such the only place they can reasonably expand into is Khorvaire. The tendrils of the Riedran invasion have already begun. They have representatives and agents in Sharn for certain. While I do believe it has been expressly detailed I am positive a group such as the Quori would have a sophisticated intelligence network throughout the whole of Khorvaire. Their unique nature would make this a relatively easy goal to accomplish. The question is then how to bring about a true war with Riedran forces fighting Khorvairans? To me the best locale for this war to begin is in Q'barra. The ECS already details that there are detachments of Riedran troops stationed in Q'barra already. These forces are there, at least superficially, to protect the kingdom of King Sebastes against the other power groups in Q'barra. Let us suppose then that a grave danger faces Q'barra. The Quori could engineer through some means a coalition of lizardmen, pirates, and other degenerates to push the kingdom into near collapse. A wise Riedran ambassador would then subtly point out that more Riedran troops could be called in. When Sebastes acquiesces to this suggestion the Riedran would move in. The 'enemy forces' are beaten back. By the end of the conflict, however, Sebastes finds himself as little more than a Riedran puppet. The conflict could then expand from this secure base of operations. The Lhazaar pirates and the Valenar elves would obviously be threatened by Quori control of Q'barra and could themselves threaten the new Riedran colony of Q'barra. As Riedran troops mass in Adderport tensions increase. Very soon the Riedran garrisons are fighting off strong raids by Valenar elves and Lhazaar corsairs. Would the conflict expand? Would other nations get involved? Would Riedra move further in force against other vulnerable kingdoms? All interesting questions. In any case, which scenario is taken, the concept of a Riedran invasion is a great one. Hmm...I may have to start planning a campaign in more detail. :)
Just another user 03-29-06, 02:19 AM	And if they don't listen to him J'orel will send his son(?) to another plane where the different envirroment will give him incredible powers. ;)
Roxlimn 03-29-06, 06:55 AM	Seriously, I don't think it'll ever come to full scale invasion. The Quori are otherwordly powers of unimaginable might. They deal with primal forces and sociopolitical forces too great for any but the mightiest kings to appreciate, let alone comprehend. If they were to fight a war, it would be a hidden silent war, and their enemies would be the likes of the Kalashtar and the Chamber and the Lords of Dust. If the Quori win, they wouldn't need to invade Khorvaire. The continent would collapse into a Dark Age and the coming of their overlordship would be seen as a blessing (just as it was in Reidra).
Wolfwood2 03-29-06, 07:52 AM	Seriously, I don't think it'll ever come to full scale invasion. The Quori are otherwordly powers of unimaginable might. They deal with primal forces and sociopolitical forces too great for any but the mightiest kings to appreciate, let alone comprehend. If they were to fight a war, it would be a hidden silent war, and their enemies would be the likes of the Kalashtar and the Chamber and the Lords of Dust. If the Quori win, they wouldn't need to invade Khorvaire. The continent would collapse into a Dark Age and the coming of their overlordship would be seen as a blessing (just as it was in Reidra). Well yeah, that was rather the point of my first post! Did you even read it? The Quori have a lot of power, but they're also working under an absolute and inescapable deadline. If they don't stop the turning of the wheel, they and all their unimaginable might are doomed. So the thing that might actually spur them to a real, military invastion rather than a hidden silent war is if they ran out of time. You can't run a hidden, silent war in ten years. It's just not doable.
Roxlimn 03-29-06, 08:39 AM	Begging your pardon, Wolfwood2, but I think that the Quori won't fight a physical invasion of Khorvaire because that's not where their strengths lie. If they're going to win at all, I think that it'll be a shadow war. Bear in mind that Khorvaire isn't simply populated and moved by the humans and their now shattered empire. Vast powers hold sway over the Five Nations, and you don't get rid of those powers just by declaring yourself a master. If they fight a physical invasion, it'll be tantamount to a declaration of defeat on their part, closely followed by actual defeat. I have no doubt that if this is necessary to halt the turning of the Age, then they will do it, but as with other movements on their part, it'll all be part of a Shadow War. The actual war isn't meant to actually conquer Khorvaire. It's only meant to delay the turning of the Wheel, in whatever mysterious fashion that only the Quori understand. Even if they get defeated in the Great War, if the turning of the Wheel is halted or even reversed, they'll be happy, and THEN they'll return to scheming on how to take over Khorvaire again.
Kobold Avenger 03-29-06, 02:50 PM	One scenario I thought of would be what if many of the nations of Khorvaire were taken over by forces influenced from the plane of Xoriat, starting a new war across the continent. The nations not under the control of Xoriat would turn to Reidra for help, and then Reidran forces would pour into Khorvaire as "relief forces" and "liberators". Of course that's a war, they aren't gauranteed to win, but probably necessary as the forces of Xoriat are going to turn towards Sarlona eventually...
Ricohard_Draconis 03-29-06, 03:06 PM	a crazy idea i had that i'll throw out there. an 'insane' Klashtar artificer builds a device that when activated will prevent anyone from sleeping for 24 hours (or insert time here) which will disrupt Dal quor long enough to force the wheel to turn. <opening adventurers are simple item collection ones for this guy> The Dreaming dark, knowing that this is coming but not knowing where go all out, firing off all their plans at once to reignite the War <lots of adventure hooks as the players slowly find out the truth> Do the players stop the invasion by ending the threat, of their former employer, or do they have the right to allow such suffering on 'man'kind for some supposed better in the future?
AvonRekaes 03-29-06, 06:47 PM	I think alot of you are looking at this a bit wrong. There's a way to have it both ways. Quori are subtle and their plans span decades and centuries until they come to fruition. Who's to say those decades and centuries lead up to 998 YK, and their plans are comming to fruition NOW. They've already done all the set up, charmed all the leaders of nations they could, and are now ready to act. I like to point out when the subject comes up that the Dreaming Dark doesn't want to maintain Eberron exactly as they found it, they want to drive it toward a totalitarian rule where they control all thought. They've already done this with Reidra and used a military war to do it. The Inspired rose up from the nations broken by warfare and united them in peace after they started the war to begin with. What's to say they aren't doing the same exact thing? Perhaps they started the Last War (See King Jarot and his crazy paranoid nightmares), and were about to step in as the answer to all of Khorvaire's problems when the Mourning happened and pre-empted them. Perhaps the descision was made to up the anty. They've already moved troops onto the continent by way of Q'barra, maybe (in your campaign) they've done so secretly with other nations as well. I really dislike saying "No" to an idea because "thats not how it works". A DM has the right to say what works in his game, and if he wants to have a Reidran invasion, then there is going to be one in his game, no matter what anyone else's opinion is. This is why Eberron's timeline won't be advanced for at least the forseeable future, because WotC wants us to play with Eberron and not have to worry about "cannon".
Roxlimn 03-31-06, 04:44 AM	Well, for what it's worth, I'm NOT saying what I'm saying because it's canon. Frankly, I couldn't care less. I just think that it somewhat violates the concept of Quori as manipulators if you portray them as purely physical threats - as in invading powers in a war. You already have the Valenar for that. Why involve the Quori? The way I see it, if the Quori are going to ever influence Khorvaire, they're going to do it in much the same way they did Reidra, since that method seems to work just fine. That is - they rule from the shadows while Inspired leaders take up puppet governments. Reidra, after all, isn't directly ruled by the Dreaming Dark. It's ruled by servants of the Dreaming Dark, but these servants know nothing and are not directly connected. If they're going to start with Q'barra (as they indeed seem to be), they'd quietly replace the existing leader with an Inspired one with no obvious ties to either the Quori nor to Reidra. When I say "quietly," I don't mean nonviolent. I mean "nontracable to Reidra." Once Q'barra is nice and progressive, they forment civil war and desolation elsewhere and Q'barra starts looking like a godsend. When they finally move physically, the people will be ready, and the fights will be easy. That's what I meant. Heck, you could even finally have a "Reunited Galifar" ruling over Khorvaire with Khorvairian Inspired as the ruling power.
MarkB 03-31-06, 10:16 AM	My as-yet-undeveloped Riedran Invasion campaign hook starts in the Lhazaar Principalities. The Riedrans engineer a series of raids upon their own shipping (essentially, their agents behind the scenes pay pirate groups to target specific Riedran ships). In response to these atrocities, they are 'forced' to send their navy into Lhazaar waters to 'pacify' the region, and in the process they garrison several of the larger islands, though not ones that have strong legitimate trading links to mainland Khorvaire. Thereafter, each Riedran trading vessel leaves Sarlona somewhat overmanned and returns somewhat under-crewed, the balance of those crews remaining on the occupied islands, and thus Riedra slowly and subtly builds up its garrison forces into a massive army. After that, the humanoid towns in Q'barra begin to be increasingly besieged by lizardfolk - again as a result of Riedran interference behind the scenes, manipulations which began even before their navies attacked the Principalities. The towns send out desperate cries for help, but either those calls go astray or the forces sent in response are hampered by monstrous attacks or bad weather. When the towns become desperate enough to appeal to the Riedrans (at subtle prompting from more Riedran agents), the Riedran army pours into Q'barra and secures the safety of the humanoids by annexing the region. And thus, the Riedran incursion proceeds, always with its armies preceeded by a vanguard of infiltrating agents, preparing the way by whatever means necessary, to ensure that the Riedran presence has just enough legitimacy to face no united opposition by the nations of Khorvaire.
Ohtar Turinson 03-31-06, 11:20 AM	Something else I would expect to see as Dal Quor's power in Khorvaire grows- government persecution of the kalashtar and small cults of the Inspired, or another similar religion. These religions would start in poor places, and would be benevolent on the surface of course-- that's the modus operundi of the Quori anyway.
(Psi)SeveredHead 03-31-06, 11:45 AM	I like the "vs Xoriat" idea. But on that note, there probably aren't enough Riedran warriors to do anything other than act as support forces for Khorvaire militaries. However, someone mentioned the Valenar. Do we know who the Valenar leader is? Perhaps someone with lots of Charisma but not many levels? Not many levels means a low Will save - easy for a relatively high level Quori to charm and use as an invasion force. "Our spies detected a cluster of 'hidden' Xoriat cultists just north of Sharn, so we're sending our forces there." *Mind read* He's not buying my line, and suspects I'm just looking for an excuse to invade Sharn. Okay, changing his mind is going to be pretty easy, though...
DarthMidget 03-31-06, 02:27 PM	The way I see it, if the Quori are going to ever influence Khorvaire, they're going to do it in much the same way they did Reidra, since that method seems to work just fine. That is - they rule from the shadows while Inspired leaders take up puppet governments. Reidra, after all, isn't directly ruled by the Dreaming Dark. It's ruled by servants of the Dreaming Dark, but these servants know nothing and are not directly connected. While the Quori do rule from the shadows it is important to discuss how they gained this ability. The Quori can possess any Inspired at will. This is only because the Inspired have been bred for generations for just such a purpose. Any other human can only be possessed willingly. This is an important distinction, and weakness. So, during the initial Quori advance in Riedra, how did they begin? The most obvious place would have been to appeal to evil rulers who sought power. I am sure not all of the Riedran monarchs would have allowed themselves to be possessed by some otherworldly power. Some, however, might have. Let us suppose, then, that a number of Quori have successfully fooled the leaders of a kingdom into letting them take control. They can't then leave these hosts for when they do they won't be able to resume control unless the host allows them. Since there are a finite number of Quori they couldn't, in all probability, take control of every Riedran kingdom in this way. As such, how would they expand their power? The answer: aggressive force. The Quori could use the kingdom they do have control of to build up a strong military presence. This army would be supplemented by Quori controlled spies in neighboring realms. They would then create a suitable cassus belli and go to war. Of course while these wars of conquest were occuring the Quori would have been busy creating the Riedran religion and breeding the Inspired. The Quori would have centuries to do this. Still it would require military force. I am sure there were Riedran kingdoms dominated by lawful good nobility who resisted their influences. Of course some of these kingdoms could be infiltrated, but never enough that force could be ruled out. Even then there would always be rebel movements, religious orders, etc etc that would not succumb to their wishes. As such the only option would be to destroy these factions using the military forces controlled by their willing puppets. Khorvaire will present the same issues to the Quori. Though the Quori have the Inspired they can't simply take control of powerful rulers overnight. At the time being I can't think of a rule of the Five Nations which would ever allow some otherwordly presence to possess them. Krozen, Boranel, Kaius, and Aurala don't seem like the type of people who would be into that. The Khorvairan experience with demonic possession from beings operating out of the Demon Wastes would likely serve as a strong bulwark against this type of bargain. As such the only people the Quori could reasonably persuade to allow their possession would be criminals or extremist revolutaries. So the Dreaming Dark is in the position of having no major power groups in Khorvaire that they control. They have two options for taking over Khorvaire: 1. Possess those willing and then build up power in Khorvairan kingdoms quietly and over a long period of time. This would basically be through the use of hosts to create some sort of revolutionary front. In the end, however, this group would have to resort to force to depose any of the current Khorvairan governments. The Lords of Karrnath simply aren't going to surrender their power because some rag-tag band of rebels ask them too. The Quori revolutionaries would have to defeat the armies of Karrnath on the battlefield. 2. Use a mixture of diplomacy, subterfuge, and force to topple the Khorvairan nations one by one. This is the policy which the Quori seem to have adopted. They are already using such a strategy in Q'barra. Inspired ambassadors have persuaded the king to allow Riedran troops to help him prop up his kingdom. The Quori will then do all they can in Q'barra to stir up internal/external problems for Q'barra so that the king allows more Riedran troops on his soil. When a critical mass is reached the Riedrans will attack loyalist forces, round up dangerous criminal elements, and try to take over the kingdom. An Inspired governor will be placed in control of the Quori will have their first foothold on Khorvaire. So I would consider it ESSENTIAL for the Quori to use some measure of force to take over Khorvaire. Battles between Quori-manipulated elements and loyalist troops would be inevitable. While the Dreaming Dark won't use brute force immediatly it will be a part of their long term plans. 1. Infiltrate: Gather information and gain allies among the disaffected 2. Disrupt: Weaken the enemy forces through subversive means 3. Invade: Mass strong conventional forces to achieve political control The Dreaming Dark/Quori are really more like a guerilla force that can operate in enemy territory without widespread support. Like all guerilla forces, however, their is almost no way they can achieve their final political ends without the use of force.
Roxlimn 04-04-06, 11:38 AM	I don't think that the Quori are as crass and unsubtle as all that. Being powers of otherwordly might and psionic influence, a Quori invasion scheme can easily make any conflict some kind of victory regardless of how their forces fared on the battlefield. For example, let's say that one Quori plot is to infiltrate and control a much larger kingdom than the one they're currently controlling. They could use force, but that would take months of planning, and they could always lose on the field. It's much easier to ensure failure on their part, since they have control over that. What happens then? Well, then their subtle mind influences come into play. Inspired are touted as the best and most beautiful individuals in their land. They're taken by the enemy as slaves and concubines. By happenstance, it seems, the next King of that Nation is the son of a captured concubine - and is himself an Inspired. Very subtly and easily done, and all within the realm of complete expertise and control by the Quori. Of course, when one has a hammer, one uses it to hammer in a nail. I don't suppose the Quori are shy about using blunt force when that's completely dependable, but they can do without it if they have to. The way I see it, when you fight a Quori force, you have to be asking yourself whether you're playing into their hands or not. Even when you demolish their forces, you have to think about whether they planned it just the way it turned out. Indeed, I'm wondering whether the Quori might be thinking about having Khorvaire invade Reidra instead of the other way around, just so the Inspired blood and cultural influences can work their magic in Khorvaire. Conquerors are much more likely to be friendly to beneficial captured influences than the conquered are to conqueror technology. Now, though, the Quori can possess any human in Reidra, by virtue of the obelisks. I'm not sure about whether this is applicable in Khorvaire. The Quori don't aim to take over Khorvaire overnight. They couldn't care less what happens overnight. They plan for the long view. I'm supposing that the Dreaming Dark is in the relative short term, planning on creating a power base in Q'barra, since it is politically and culturally weak. This power base cannot have overt ties to Reidra, or the other nations might take notice. Depending on the other nations, this newly influenced power base can be friendly or "hostile" to Reidra. It's doesn't matter. As long as the Dreaming Dark has a firm grasp on Q'barra, that's all that matters. 2. Use a mixture of diplomacy, subterfuge, and force to topple the Khorvairan nations one by one. This is the policy which the Quori seem to have adopted. They are already using such a strategy in Q'barra. Inspired ambassadors have persuaded the king to allow Riedran troops to help him prop up his kingdom. The Quori will then do all they can in Q'barra to stir up internal/external problems for Q'barra so that the king allows more Riedran troops on his soil. When a critical mass is reached the Riedrans will attack loyalist forces, round up dangerous criminal elements, and try to take over the kingdom. An Inspired governor will be placed in control of the Quori will have their first foothold on Khorvaire. Too brazen and crass. Too overt. The way I see it, the Quori will to all they can to create internal and external problems for Q'barra, both from the immediate surroundings and from far away. Perhaps they will influence the Valenar to attempt some kind of mad annexing attack. The Reidrans will do nothing but support and show support for the king and his subjects. They will faultlessly and selflessly defend the kingdom from all comers. As their success and popularity rises, the Q'barrans begin to find in Reidran culture the Galifar of the future. Surely, this is the way to go! They're cultured, refined, selfless, and powerful! Reidran goods begin to develop a special quality. Reidrans begin to walk in prestige and honor in Q'barra. Eventually, the Royal Line agrees to intermarriage. The Queen is an Inspired! By luck, her son is also an Inspired. All Reidrans assure the Q'barrans that this is normal. Inspired and Humans tend to give birth to Inspired. This young Insipred eventually takes over the throne and rules Q'barra. Very natural turn of events. Reidra comes across smelling like roses. Meanwhile, Dreaming Dark agents create hell and high water in every other continent in Khorvaire. Whereas peace and prosperity reigns in Q'barra, Breland and Aundair go down in civil war. Do the Reidrans interfere? No! Reidra does not interfere in the soveriegn problems of a foriegn barbaric nation. It has better things to attend to. Even if the Khorvairians ask them to intercede? Well, maybe. Reidran aid has its price, of course. It won't invest in a project that it has absolutely no surety over. A Khorvairian will be king, of course, but a Q'barran advisor (one of Reidra's close allies) surely would be welcome? And on it goes...
DarthMidget 04-04-06, 04:35 PM	Well, Roxxlim, those are good plans, but even if they do 'lose' the fact that they fielded an army is 'force'. Simply because their army 'failed' doesn't mean that they didn't use force. Also, we know that the Quori are willing to use force in some circumstances, because that is the way in which they intend to destroy Adar. They have been trying for centuries to crush the mountain kingdom with armies. So far they have been unsuccesful. So we know that the Quori WILL use force when the situation presents itself. In order to conquer Khorvaire they would HAVE to use force at some point either with Riedran or proxy troops. Even if an army doesn't know it is doing the will of the Quori that is still an example of force. Problems for the Quori in Khorvaire: 1. Thrane: This nation is ruled by the Church. The Cardinals of the Church can never be infiltrated by the Inspired. For one the position of Cardinal is not hereditary. As such even if they had Inspired marry certain Cardinals it would mean nothing. Oh the Inspired wife/husband might be able to influence the Cardinal, but eventually the Cardinal would die and another would take his place. Also I doubt very much the Inspired have the population to marry every Cardinal. The only realistic way the Inspired could attempt to take over the Church would be to join it. If they did this, however, they are forsaking Riedran culture. This would be a Riedran 'reborn spirit' (which is what the Riedrans believe the Inspired are) worshipping a false god. The political fallout for the Quori in this would be so great that they would never try it. As such the Quori would have no choice, but to destroy Thrane, or at least the Church, through force with their own troops or troops they can trick into working for them. 2. Karrnath: Ah the glorious and completely untouchable undead of Karrnath. Kaius, his immediate circle, and his Immortal Elven Queen have no chance of being influenced by the Quori. As such the Quori would have to wait until Kaius was off the throne. Such would fit their long term plans anyway. Of course if Kaius is 'gone' that doesn't mean he is actually gone. I wouldn't put it past Kaius to assume the identity of the 'next' Karrnathi king. Kaius will have many more years to set such a plan in motion. As such Karrnath could, in theory, be ruled by the same man for centuries to come. If this doesn't happen the Blood of Vol are in a very good position to take control of Karrnath. While they might not win the civil war which would follow such a war they could. If the Blood did take control of Karrnath then the Inspired/Quori/Dreaming Dark would have no way of taking it over through subtle means. They would have to use force be it through their own troops or proxies. 3. Aundair: Aundair at first, might seem a good place for the Quori to make use of the 'breed in the Inspired' plan which you recommended. Again, though, it might not work. If Khorvairan nobility are anything like European nobility then you can't marry just anyone. An Inspired, ruler of a continent they might be, are not Aundairan nobility. As such any Aundairan aristocrat who married an Inspired might have to give up all rights to his title and possessions. An Aundairan noble marrying an Inspired would be akin to a European noble of the 17th century marrying the daughter of a Chinese lord. While the two are technically part of a ruling class the fallout would be tremendous. 4. Breland: Breland could be the easiest nation for the Quori to infiltrate, but with that being said it won't be easy. It's entirely possible that when Boranel dies Breland will become a democracy or at least something akin to one. When that happens the Brelish Parliament will take control of the country. As such the Quori won't have to infiltrate just one royal family they'd have to be able to influence the entire nation of Breland. It would be, in many ways, more difficult for an Inspired to become an MP than it might be for them to marry a nobleman and 'taint' the line with Inspired. As well all know politicians come and go. Then there is the other problem of the Quori: their alien nature. This has proven to be an advantage for them in Sarlona since no one knew that they even existed. At that point in Sarlonan history the kalashtar had not yet become the force they are today. The kalashtar, though weak, are present throughout Khorvairan culture. As such if they sense the Quori attempting to infiltrate their new adopted home they can take measures to deal with it. There is another factor which must be taken into consideration. AFAIK the kingdoms taken over by the Quori in Sarlona knew nothing of Xen'drik. As such they did not know that the Giants of Xen'drik had been threatened by a Quori invasion in the distant past. As Khorvairan adventurers and scholars continue to penetrate deeper into Xen'drik this ancient war will come to light. Given the paranoid nature of most government intelligence agencies such information would not be lightly ignored. If this does come out you can count of groups like the Royal Eyes of Aundair, the Argentum, and the King's Citadel to start running down rumors. Inevitably such groups would learn of the kalashtar and find out what exactly rules in Sarlona. When this happens the Quori chances for a subversion of Khorvaire are drastically weakened. Finally there are the warforged. These creatures are immune to any sort of Quori suggestion and do not dream. As such they represent Khorvaire's best defense against the Dreaming Dark. As individual warforged come into greater contact with the kalashtar it is inevitable that some warforged will learn of this dark threat to their brother races. These sentient automatons will be the ultimate anti-Quori weapon as they cannot be turned. So while I do agree that the Quori would attempt subversion in Khoravire over a long period I am not convinced that it would be successful. Khorvaire has many tools which ancient Sarlona did not to combat a Quori infiltration. When it becomes clear to the Quori that they cannot conquer all of Khorvaire through infiltration they will turn, inevitably, to the use of force. As you said when you have a hammer everything starts to look like a nail. The Quori have a very powerful hammer in the Riedran armies and when other options become closed to them they will swing it. The question is: can the hammer swing hard enough to crush Khorvairan independant thought?
Wolfwood2 04-04-06, 07:04 PM	For example, let's say that one Quori plot is to infiltrate and control a much larger kingdom than the one they're currently controlling. They could use force, but that would take months of planning, and they could always lose on the field. It's much easier to ensure failure on their part, since they have control over that. What happens then? Well, then their subtle mind influences come into play. Inspired are touted as the best and most beautiful individuals in their land. They're taken by the enemy as slaves and concubines. By happenstance, it seems, the next King of that Nation is the son of a captured concubine - and is himself an Inspired. Very subtly and easily done, and all within the realm of complete expertise and control by the Quori. What, they're going to do all that in ten years? Indeed, I'm wondering whether the Quori might be thinking about having Khorvaire invade Reidra instead of the other way around, just so the Inspired blood and cultural influences can work their magic in Khorvaire. Conquerors are much more likely to be friendly to beneficial captured influences than the conquered are to conqueror technology. I'd think ten years for cultural influence might be cutting it a bit close. The Quori don't aim to take over Khorvaire overnight. They couldn't care less what happens overnight. They plan for the long view. I'm supposing that the Dreaming Dark is in the relative short term, planning on creating a power base in Q'barra, since it is politically and culturally weak. This power base cannot have overt ties to Reidra, or the other nations might take notice. Depending on the other nations, this newly influenced power base can be friendly or "hostile" to Reidra. It's doesn't matter. As long as the Dreaming Dark has a firm grasp on Q'barra, that's all that matters. Not overnight... but it does have to be within ten years! That's the point of this thread! That's why I posted it in the first place. Say the Quori only have ten years before they lose for good. What would they do then? How would they act? That's the scenario I want to consider. That is the specific modification I made in the regular course of events for the purpose of this thread. All this going on about how subtle the Inspired normally are; we get that. Let me ask you outright to address the starting scenario. Given that they only have ten years to act... how do the quori behave? Though even outside of this scenario, it's worthwhile to consider that the quori don't know how long they have. They can afford to think in the long-term generally, but they aren't the Lords of Dust. They can't wait literally forever.
DarthMidget 04-04-06, 11:08 PM	Let me ask you outright to address the starting scenario. Given that they only have ten years to act... how do the quori behave? Massive invasion - no doubt. ;) Though even outside of this scenario, it's worthwhile to consider that the quori don't know how long they have. They can afford to think in the long-term generally, but they aren't the Lords of Dust. They can't wait literally forever. A good point.
Just another user 04-05-06, 04:57 PM	While the Quori do rule from the shadows it is important to discuss how they gained this ability. The Quori can possess any Inspired at will. This is only because the Inspired have been bred for generations for just such a purpose. Any other human can only be possessed willingly. This is an important distinction, and weakness. So, during the initial Quori advance in Riedra, how did they begin? The most obvious place would have been to appeal to evil rulers who sought power. I am sure not all of the Riedran monarchs would have allowed themselves to be possessed by some otherworldly power. Some, however, might have. The way I see it Inspired where created by a very subtle form of selective breeding. After have found a couple of humanoids that in the quori opinion have the potential to generate an inspired (or the next step to arrive to one) they start to manipulate their dream making appear one in the dream of the other, vivid dreams, intense dreams, dreams made to persuade each other that their are the respective True Love, maybe even with the help of some psionic suggestion to the point where one of the two take and go to search the other, following his dreams so to speak, and then they find each other, nature have his way and a children that is slightly more vulnerable to quori possession is born, rinse and repeat till necessary. As a byproduct this children could have some form of psionic power I believe, or at least some sort of profetic dreams ;) , the quori could influence their dreams and other people dreams to make them gain more influence in Sarlona, making them spread the legend of the powerful extraplanar beings that are "inspiring" them and that only want the good of Sarlona, there won't be need to use violence, people that oppose them will just have problems taking a good night of sleep, maybe even have some really scary nightmare, that could even leave them dead in their bed. With every generations influencing the pseudo inspired is easier and easier for the quori and their power and influence are larger and larger until they arrive to what is the actual situation.
Roxlimn 04-14-06, 04:21 AM	Wolfwood2: They could be more brazen, up the ante a bit on the shadow wars. Given that they have ten years left to act, what would they do? They're probably send hidden agents en masse, to forment revolution all over the place, then take over using what armies they can muster, probably of local stock. Darguun might be a good place to get recruits. My point here is, Khorvaire is portected by more than just its physical kingdoms and I think that the Quori are much too subtle to not have noticed it. That any outright physical or psionic assault would be doomed to utter failure, and that they would know it and plan accordingly. I don't see them launching a suicidal force with absolutely no knowledge of their enemy and hoping to chance that they'll succeed. Even on a clock, they'll work to maximize their advantages, and information gathering is one of those they have in spades. If they attack, it's probably more than simply something that bashes you and forces you to submit to their will (seeing as that approach will probably fail). If all they need is to take control of certain sites, then they can probably do so by forming and controlling locally grown groups that will manage and rule over those sites, whether in actuality, under another power, or in disguise. A Reidran "invasion" simply seeking to control multiple sites over Khorvaire might mobilize three or four different seeming organizations that all seem bent on something else entirely. And it would "just so" happen that these organization would come to control all the sites that the Quori need to. Since the Quori stock in trade is information and misleading, I would say that that's the most likely scenario. For Quori, the time for subtlety is never passed. If you were a spy, what time would your secrecy be expendable? When you're ceased being a spy, that's when. Since a Quori never ceases to be Quori, they will never completely abandon that which gives them strength and power. If they were going to plan an invasion with force, I think it would be direct from their world, planar invasion. Now THAT I can see.
eloth983 04-14-06, 04:15 PM	But yes, in the face of guaranteed FAILURE of all their subtle plans, the Quori will ACT I agree with this because as I see it, the goal of the Inspired is to rule all of Eberron, they just prefer to use subtle methods, howver they do have pleny of muscle if the needed to invade, namely the human population of Sarlona who would gladly fight for the Inspired. so strength is not a problem. I also think think that the most lkeley way that the full scale invasion would happen is a v. the Demons of Daeylkyr scenario. I see the three "big baddies" of the Daelkyr, Demons and Quori (or at least the agents thereof) to be in constant conflict becuse their goals are mutially exclusive. Two groups want to rule the world the third wants to destroy it. I think that what would most likely happen is that the Inspired would see that the Demons or Daelkeyr were close to gainning the upper hand in Khorvair. This would be the failure of the subtle menuverings. In this case the Inspired would be forced to act immidiatley in order to preserve their interests. This invasion senario is interesting as well because then what do you do, do you fight the Reidran invaders, which efectively helps the Demons or do you help the Reidrans and preserve Khorvair.
ChaoticGood 04-15-06, 06:36 PM	Ten years should be enough for the Quori to access their ancient knowledge and build an eldritch machine. I'm not saying they would, but that, for purposes of your story, they might do so... Think of it as a Quori Manhattan Project. In particular, such an eldritch machine would be built in secret in a hideaway deep within the Nightwood of Karrnath by Inspired artificers and wizards. An identical machine is built by a team of Inspired operating from a similar site in Breland's King's Wood. When completed, these devices would be activated to generate a powerful psychic feedback which would force all sentient beings within 250 miles to make a high DC Will save or suffer 2d6 Wisdom damage as the feedback drives them to madness. Within a few minutes of the double blast, the planar invasion begins, entering Eberron through artificial manifest zones in the surrounding cities, dominating everyone in their paths. Sharn and Wroat fall to the southern team, while the northern team seizes control of Korth, Karrlakton, Vedykar, Atur, and possibly Rekkenmark as well. Incapable of recognizing the dominated mortals of Karrn as other than masters, armies of unintelligent Karrnathi undead fall under the sway of the Quori as well. This isn't to say that the Quori would be undisputed masters of these regions, but it provides a gaping hole filled with easily-dominated mortals... easy pickings for a large group of Quori looking to make a fast escape into the Material Plane. Any issues with that idea?
DarthMidget 04-15-06, 07:38 PM	Any issues with that idea? Well, yes! :) Dal Quor can no longer be coterminous due to the magic unleashed by the Giants. I would counter that the Quori have likely been working for centuries to reverse this trend to no avail. As such I don't think it is something they could solve in ten years. Still, an eldritch machine that drives people mad is an interesting idea. Also, FYI, Karrnathi undead are not mindless. As such they would follow Kaius above all others, I would think, and since he can't be dominated the undead will remain loyal to Karrnath. So it would be very difficult for the Quori to gain control of the Karrn legions.
Teron Gorefiend 04-16-06, 12:04 AM	Well, yes! :) Dal Quor can no longer be coterminous due to the magic unleashed by the Giants. I would counter that the Quori have likely been working for centuries to reverse this trend to no avail. As such I don't think it is something they could solve in ten years. Still, an eldritch machine that drives people mad is an interesting idea. To be fair, there's been a very little bit of avail. Centuries after getting the Empty Vessels to breed themselves, they finally managed to do something - the monoliths, most likely - that allowed them to possess willing humans. It used to be they couldn't even do that. As for the madness-inducing eldritch machines (incorporating the Madstone, perhaps?), the Quori might fear that they could cause an undesirable surge of Daelkyr activity. Who knows - the widespread madness might be enough to empower some of them to break the Gatekeeper seals, or at least get them to send every mind flayer and beholder in Khyber topside for a party. And heck, if you're going that crazy, why leave out the Lords of Dust? The spread of insanity might fulfill the prophecy that releases Tul Oreshka, the Truth in the Darkness, the Rajah of madness. Epic three-way fiend apocalypse, anyone? Also, FYI, Karrnathi undead are not mindless. As such they would follow Kaius above all others, I would think, and since he can't be dominated the undead will remain loyal to Karrnath. So it would be very difficult for the Quori to gain control of the Karrn legions. Well, Kaius himself has a nagging feeling that he may not be the undead's true master, but your point stands since Vol wouldn't be any more pliant. For good measure (because the above scenario just doesn't have enough engines of senseless death and destruction), her Project Leviathan can awaken the Tarrasque. Who said Eberron can't do epic? Can you tell I need sleep? I might be unrecognisable if I post while rested, though.
ChaoticGood 04-19-06, 12:39 PM	Dal Quor can no longer be coterminous due to the magic unleashed by the Giants. I thought that only applied to natural manifest zones... I am talking about, essentially, gate spells... they don't work either? Maybe I need to brush up on my Eberron cosmology... Also, FYI, Karrnathi undead are not mindless. Maybe I play it differently than other people, but I assume that the intelligent ones, the ones specifically labeled "Karrnathi zombie" and "Karrnathi skeleton," are elite soldiers, and that there are platoons of regular zombies and skeletons who act as shock troops and grunts... I could be off-canon there, though. So I'm not suggesting that all the armies of Karrnath are magically at Dal Quor's command, but rather that the split between unintelligent undead taking commands from dominated mortal generals and intelligent undead under the command of Kaius and/or Vol would be enough to prevent a military response to the invasion. (because the above scenario just doesn't have enough engines of senseless death and destruction) Ah, much like my Eberron 2006 campaign idea... good times, good times... :D
Twinnings 04-20-06, 09:08 AM	Hitler didnt need to justify the holacost he just did whats to say that the quori arnt as bad as the Fuer. They want land they want slaves there selfish, and they want to move freely on other planes i mean there trapped on dal quor... DAH :eek:
DarthMidget 04-20-06, 11:18 PM	I thought that only applied to natural manifest zones... I am talking about, essentially, gate spells... they don't work either? Maybe I need to brush up on my Eberron cosmology... My understanding is that due to the Giant's magic the only way to reach Dal Quor is through dreaming. I mean if the Quori could flood Eberron with the stuff of nightmares to finally destroy the Kalashtar and Adar then why wouldn't they?