Post/Author/DateTime	Post
davethebrave371 04-07-06, 12:41 AM	This is a paired set of questions for all those sociologists and hypothetical Eberronian historians out there. 1) What evidence would it take for Kaius to believe that the Inspired/Quori/Dreaming Dark were a threat, and that the information was valid (and not just "terrorist misinformation", as the Riedran ambassadors would likely inform him it all is)? 2) If he could be convinced, how do you think he'd react? If he, for instance, believed what a kalashtar told him (or, in the case of my campaign, the word of a Lord-Colonel in his army, who is also a member of the Order of Rekkenmark and a well-known and strong Kaius loyalist), what action would he take? He's undead, so the mind-bending influences don't affect him. Obviously he'd want to protect Karrnathi interests. But how? Making everyone undead isn't his thing anymore, he learned his lesson...but would this make him reconsider? I doubt it. Someone devoted to the tenents of the Blood of Vol might think it reasonable, however...and it's questionable if he still believes in the ideas. He may. This is such a brain teaser for me, with so many things to consider. Reason I'm asking? My group is RP intensive, and four out of six players currently participating are of a caliber that should be on the silver screen (or, given film quality these days, maybe an independant film). One of those is playing the above-mentioned character, and has recently come into the realization that the Inspired are, in fact, nightmarish creatures from where people go when they sleep, attempting to take over the world. Having an atavist kalashtar in the party hasn't helped assauge his fears, or cause him to doubt such dubious claims. A recent...intervention...in the life of his wife at his estate in Atur has lead to his main short-term character goal of meeting with Kaius, no matter how long it takes, and informing him of this threat. I'm going to be NPCing Kaius at his most dubious, and try and have him trusting the Inspired perhaps more than he normally would, given that he's a smart man. But if he call pull it off (and as I said, excellent RPer, and his background affords him even more leverage), I just don't know what would happen. Or rather, don't know what of the millions of possibilities swirling in my head should happen.
Splendide 04-07-06, 12:57 AM	1) Information coming from his own people. No-one takes what ambassadors say as anything more than the official line. 2) Find out how they work, find out what they want, find out how they can be used to his advantage.
Ellorin 04-07-06, 03:22 AM	1)Try to capture a few(a strike team perhaps?) and have them discreetly and "politely" interrogated..then having an accidental accident.Catching them red-handed with a trustworthy Karrnath citizen by your side as a witness could help too. 2)Make their position in Karrnath fainter and fainter.Make deals with other nations istead of Riedra.Sabotage them.Orchestrate events so that other forces learn about them too.Anonymously support the Path of Light.Maybe even mind-control some of them.
aelryinth 04-07-06, 04:48 AM	Remember, Kaius is the man who got Karrnath into the Last War...he's the actual son of the last Galifar king. So he knows the stories about nightmares and things, and given his intellect, putting the information together isn't going to be difficult. If a kalashtar starts talking to him about how the INspired came to power in Sarlona, he's going to start drawing parallels very quickly. Which leaves you with a vampire king, immune to manipulation by the Inspired and the QUori, and so probably the best person to head the defense of Khorvaire against the influence of the Inspired. It's almost like if he lost his throne, it'd be a great boon to the rest of the nations. Give him the Inspired to hunt down...I'm sure they'd like a ruthless, undreaming vampire ex-monarch hunting them down for what their manipulations did to his people.. ==Aelryinth
davethebrave371 04-07-06, 12:01 PM	Great answers, got a few more questions though. Splendide and ael (to a lesser extent) 1) Playing Devil's Advocate here, would he believe someone he's never met in person? Yeah, it's a Karrnathi citizen. But this is something huge. Neither Kaius nor my player have Knowledge (planes), and it probably sounds like a bunch of mumbo-jumbo. Would he honestly believe it? If there was physical evidence, some sort of thing to be laid bare, sure. But would Kaius risk war with an entire continent over what could be the kalashtar-brainwashed propaganda of a Colonel who has taken to adventuring? I think saying "no one takes what ambassadors say as anything more than the official line" is a little different with Riedra. So far, on an international level, the Reidrans have insinuated themselves in every culture, and people love them. Even people who are suspicious would probably laugh or grunt grumpily and wave a dismissive hand if someone tried to tell them pure nightmare rules Sarlona, and could competely supplant peoples' minds (the kalashtar in the party encountered the mind seeded head of the Blackened Book in Sharn). And, I should mention, all of this information is just words. That's why I asked what evidence he'd require. All the Lord-Colonel has is the gut feeling that this kalashtar has it right, and that his wife is in danger of being mind seeded. This is essentially someone saying, "This Kalashtar said to me blah blah blah and I believe them." Kaius, I think, would be perfectly within his rights to say, "...well, I don't." I can't think of a single world leader in Khorvaire, or head of an intelligence org in Khorvaire who would actually believe that, just based on someone saying, "I heard it from a friend." Specifically for ael, what stories about nightmares and things would Kaius know? I'm not sure I know what you mean. Ellorin 1) But what would prompt him to send out people to capture and interrogate "strike teams"? Remember, any DD or Inspired "strike teams" are likely completely unknown, and I doubt anyone would believe that they existed. The Riedrans render medical and materiel aid, not troops. They seem (to the leaders of Khorvaire) to be a peaceful, if not pacifist nation (or at worst, pragmatists with a lot of surplus medical supplies). What would be evidence enough for Kaius to believe that there were people to go out there and interrogate. Everybody 2) I think these answers are excellent...but remember that while he is certainly undead, as are a lot of people close to him, there are very important movers and shakers in Karrnath who are not. I'm sure if Kaius was convinced this threat was real, he would realize that potentially anyone who was not undead could be possessed by Quori, mentally dominated by psion Inspired, or even mind seeded. How would he react knowing that any agent he sends out to do his dirty work in the examples set out by Splendide and Ellorin could be compromised. If he can be convinced of their extraplanar nature (and, just for context, the Colonel has been informed that you can't kill them, as they just come back at the heart of Dal Quor), he might even be willing to believe that they'd sacrifice a few operations to make the agents look effective, and there'd be no way to know his agents had been mind seeded. How would Kaius react to that kind of knowledge? I think ael's is a little closer to reality. Ruthless hunt. The only problem is, how to build up to that hunt. How soon would he want to try and reveal this to other nations? How would his undead nature come into play? Would he try and convince people that the undead, being immune to the quori powers, would work wonders? Or would he be too wary of Vol and her machinations? Would he be willing to fight a "two-front war" with two secret powers no one else knows about all by himself? Would he be willing to wage all out war, and if so, what would be the minimum number of nations on his side that he'd require to feel secure in doing so? I suppose I see his answer to knowing what's going on to be quiet build up to war...but the question I have is, how does he build up, and how long does he build up?
DoveArrow 04-07-06, 12:50 PM	If Kaius believes that Sarlona is a threat to his power, then his first act would probably be to deny the Sarlonan ambassadors an audience in the Karrnathi government and to ask for the immediate deportation, imprisonment, or, in extreme cases, the execution of any citizens of Sarlona. He would then probably engage in diplomatic conversations with Breland, in order to convince them to do the same thing. This may seem like a fairly lukewarm reaction, but keep in mind that Karrnath is currently in no condition to engage in another costly war. Meanwhile, the Dreaming Dark agents rely primarily on covert operations, rumor, and suggestion in their efforts to take over Khorvaire. By denying the Sarlonans an audience, it would go a long way towards keeping them at bay.
SiouLubb 04-07-06, 03:36 PM	If the PC managed to convince him, I'd say his first move would be to keep his knowledge of the threat very, very quiet. No grand gestures, no immediate actions, just the start of a slow, relentless examination of his inner circle for any Quori influence. After that, he's start looking to balance hiding his awareness of the quori threat with taking action against it- primarily to see Karnaath protected. Kaius knows that if the Quori become aware of his knowledge, Karnaath will likely become more of a target. Plus, if the Quori focus more attention on him, they might well discover his secret. Kaius doesn't have to take any aggressive action right away. He can wait years if necessary. He doens't have the resources to declare a war on the Inspired right now. I doubt that he'd get rid of the Riedran ambassador at all. Keep your enemies close- and if they don't know you're aware of them, they may make foolish mistakes you can exploit. Kaius will also ask himself how he can turn the quori threat to his own ends. Can he get the Quori to go after the other states and spend their resources and influence there? Can he stir up conflict between other states and the Riedrans? The more they can be directed against each other, the better for Kaius. If necessary, the knowledge of the Quori threat can be used as a bargaining chip for his own ends, to be traded with others for what he needs, or manipulated to fall into the hands of others so they will take action. Hmmmm another question he'd have -did the Quori have anything to do with the Mourning? The king might start to think about expanding the ranks of his undead advisors again. He'll also be aware that one of the weaknesses of the Quori in Khorvaire is that they have no massed forces and likely don't have that many agents. If he becomes aware of a Quori conspiracy in a villiage, he might well raze it entirely, thinking the trade of a village for removing the Quori taint is a fair trade. Under no circumstances is Kaius going to broadcast the news of the Quori threat. Paranoia between the nations is bad enough at the moment without proving to everyone that the other rulers may be slaves of alien powers. That would likely plunge the continent back into war.
davethebrave371 04-07-06, 08:18 PM	The first thing I thought Kaius would think was, oddly enough, did the Quori have anything to do with the Mourning? Of course, such investigation would have to come second to simply securing Karrnath's future. I like your take, for sure.
aelryinth 04-07-06, 08:33 PM	The Last War began because the Last King had nightmares about all manner of external threats, and went on a rampant military build-up. His children would certainly known about the dreams dad was having. When he died, all that military power was around waiting to be used...and it was. The queen of Breland was especially affected by dreams of liberating the continent. As her biggest supporter, Kaius probably knows about those dreams. Indeed, since becoming undead and dreamless has changed his own ambitions tremendously...he isn't a rampant conqueror anymore. Is it because he's undead...or because something isn't messing with his dreams? Kaius doesn't need to have ranks in K(tP). He needs to have a trusted advisor who does...like members of the Twelve, or some of his more powerful mage underlings. There are Kalashtar natives of Karrn, too...he has the resources to verify this. What would he do? He'd be smart. Play one enemy against another. I can imagine letting it subtly become known that the intelligent undead acting against the Riedrans won't be hindered by Kaius...a nice outlet for the Blood of Vol. I can also see a quiet purge in his ranks by undead agents looking for Mind seeds...overt action isn't the best way of handling things. Karrnath might end up being remarkably free of Riedran influence while at the same time taking advantage of their purely temporal offerings (more food? thanks!). I can also see a quiet investiture in Prot/Evil devices or similar to ward against external dream-shaping and the like...and Kaius would be a fool not to learn about the tactical applications of psionics once he knows of the options it presents. Imagine an elite corps of undead psions being secretely mustered to fight the Riedrans...heh! ===Aelryinth
DarthMidget 04-07-06, 11:22 PM	The queen of Breland was especially affected by dreams of liberating the continent. As her biggest supporter, Kaius probably knows about those dreams. Indeed, since becoming undead and dreamless has changed his own ambitions tremendously...he isn't a rampant conqueror anymore. Is it because he's undead...or because something isn't messing with his dreams? Excellent point, Ael, one that I hadn't caught until now. Of course this does beg the question: if the Quori are influencing the dreams of powerful Khorvairan leaders, then what do they think about a leader whose dreams they can't (i.e. Kaius) influence? Obviously the Dreaming Dark would notice that Kaius didn't have a dream presence. This leads them to two conlusions: 1. He has shielded his mind while dreaming for some reason. 2. Given the amount of undead in Karrnath one could assume that Kaius is himself undead. Of the two I'd say they would most likely suspect the first one. Kaius doesn't need to have ranks in K(tP). He needs to have a trusted advisor who does...like members of the Twelve, or some of his more powerful mage underlings. There are Kalashtar natives of Karrn, too...he has the resources to verify this. Agreed. If Kaius set his mind to it he could easily come up with a way to determine who is influenced and who isn't. It did occur to me that a threat such as the Quori might inspire Kaius to make more intelligent undead (loyal family members only of course). Imagine an elite corps of undead psions being secretely mustered to fight the Riedrans...heh! Psionic vampire shifter monk f3r teh w1n!!!
davethebrave371 04-08-06, 12:47 AM	The Last War began because the Last King had nightmares about all manner of external threats, and went on a rampant military build-up. His children would certainly known about the dreams dad was having. When he died, all that military power was around waiting to be used...and it was. The queen of Breland was especially affected by dreams of liberating the continent. As her biggest supporter, Kaius probably knows about those dreams. Indeed, since becoming undead and dreamless has changed his own ambitions tremendously...he isn't a rampant conqueror anymore. Is it because he's undead...or because something isn't messing with his dreams? Kaius doesn't need to have ranks in K(tP). He needs to have a trusted advisor who does...like members of the Twelve, or some of his more powerful mage underlings. There are Kalashtar natives of Karrn, too...he has the resources to verify this. What would he do? He'd be smart. Play one enemy against another. I can imagine letting it subtly become known that the intelligent undead acting against the Riedrans won't be hindered by Kaius...a nice outlet for the Blood of Vol. I can also see a quiet purge in his ranks by undead agents looking for Mind seeds...overt action isn't the best way of handling things. Karrnath might end up being remarkably free of Riedran influence while at the same time taking advantage of their purely temporal offerings (more food? thanks!). I can also see a quiet investiture in Prot/Evil devices or similar to ward against external dream-shaping and the like...and Kaius would be a fool not to learn about the tactical applications of psionics once he knows of the options it presents. Imagine an elite corps of undead psions being secretely mustered to fight the Riedrans...heh! ===Aelryinth ...ael...you're brilliant.
aelryinth 04-08-06, 03:31 AM	Impossible! Too many people argue with me about it! I don't believe you!!!!! :) ==Aelryinth
DarkWarriorKarg 04-08-06, 09:26 AM	Imagine an elite corps of undead psions being secretely mustered to fight the Riedrans...heh! And so begins the Necropolitan for Eberron.
Aneul 04-08-06, 12:41 PM	This point was brought up by someone else on another Dreaming Dark related thread, but it bears mentioning again: The Houses of Shadow are elves, and as such don't sleep, and therefore don't dream If Kaius became concerned with the possibility of Inspired manipulations within his court and country, it seems like one of the first groups he might turn to for aid would be the Shadow Houses, who are A) Immune to the primary weapon of the Inspired (And that +2 vs encahntments and similar effects will certainly be handy too), and B) Already highly skilled at gathering information and similar clandestine opperations. With Phairlan or Thuranni agenst out assesing the situation, and intelligent undead at his back should a direct confrontation ever become nessesary, Kaius would be well prepared to wage a secret war with the Dreaming Dark.
Aloïsius 04-08-06, 04:52 PM	This point was brought up by someone else on another Dreaming Dark related thread, but it bears mentioning again: The Houses of Shadow are elves, and as such don't sleep, and therefore don't dream But are not immune to mind seed. As for the dreams... while the quori are obviously master at using them, what about the LoD/Rajah ? I'm quiet sure they may have some magic to influence the mortals. quori are of course N°1 suspects, as the Last War looked very like the conflict that gave them control over Sarlona.
Aneul 04-08-06, 06:14 PM	Granted, the elves aren't immune to mind seed, but then again, how many agents do the Inspired have who can manifest it- its an 8th level power, and so requires a psion of atleast 15th level to use it. I can't imagine that there are more than a handful of 15+ level psions in Khorvaire, or even ascociated with the Dreaming Dark. As for a power other than the Dreaming Dark having inspired the last king (Jarlot?)'s dreams- it seems to me that regardless of who actualy did it, Kaius will automaticaly suspect the Inspired as soon as he discovers exactly what they are up to- for that matter, does he even know about the Lords of Dust, seeing as they are a fairly secretive group themselves?
aelryinth 04-09-06, 02:17 AM	He's the King of an entire nation. It's a fairly safe presumption he knows all the major players. ==Aelryinth
Euangelion 04-09-06, 09:17 PM	However, the Shadow Houses may actually posses rare knowledge in Khorvaire, records of first hand accounts of the first quori invasion. They may indeed be helpful to Kaius, and likely to believe that the quori pose a threat. But then again, they probably already know that!
Ellorin 04-10-06, 03:42 AM	He might even dominate the embassy...possibly with the aid of Moranna.Let them taste their own medicine.Of course, the ambassadors know little about the plans of the Dreaming Dark, but dominating them would mean that a)he can learn about the nature of the Inspired B)he could have the act in a way that exposes Riedra-let's frame them.Give them the impression that there are traitors in their own ranks.After all, Kaius is not bound by the rules of morality... By the way, have the Inspired tried to enter Aerenal society too?If so, Etrigani's ties might prove quite valuable.
Ellorin 04-10-06, 03:50 AM	Ellorin 1) But what would prompt him to send out people to capture and interrogate "strike teams"? Remember, any DD or Inspired "strike teams" are likely completely unknown, and I doubt anyone would believe that they existed. The Riedrans render medical and materiel aid, not troops. They seem (to the leaders of Khorvaire) to be a peaceful, if not pacifist nation (or at worst, pragmatists with a lot of surplus medical supplies). What would be evidence enough for Kaius to believe that there were people to go out there and interrogate. I assumed that even the possibility that his nation is threatened by a far more powerful force would be enough.It is the cause of his life and unlife.A little paranoia is not out of the question.He could at least make some research.
TheNegaDruid 04-10-06, 09:19 AM	Kaius is one of the best people to deal with the threat of the Inspired, besides Vol. I am in definite agreement with that. If Kaius does start taking them really seriously, after all the secret investigation and all that... he'd definitely keep it hush hush. He's arrogant enough to think only /he/ could deal with them. The Undead, immune to their powers, can do some terrible things to the Reidrans. If Kaius does eventualy start taking them seriously, the easiest solution for him would be to send several of his more powerful vampiric servants to Reidra and start making Covens. The obvious targets would be at least one vampiric coven in each major city, targeting highborn Inspired and vampirizing them. That'll both expell the Quori possession and give weaken their power structure. Further, the other fun thing to do would be to target the Work Gangs that are building those giant monoliths across the country. A good strike force of Vampires could start turning workers and their taskmasters, and force them, with their new vampiric might, to dismantle the very things they've been creating. No matter what domination their under, these people would become Vampiric Thralls to Kaius and his servants... oh the fun. I always approve of one 'evil' attacking and destroying another. One wonders how Vol would react to the news too... she wouldn't want Dal'Quor returning either. I'm sure she'd find out, too, if Kaius took an active interest. And the idea of using the Necropolitans as an order of Psionic Undead to fight the Quori/Inspired is a great idea! Good luck to your group. I hope they and you have serious fun with this.
darkthought 04-10-06, 11:31 AM	Just a quick note here, the Inspired would lose their ability to be possessed by the Quori once they're vamped. All you have to do is infect one that hasn't been used / still in training and have him infect the rest of his line. Viola, that's one Quori who has no hosts he can possess at will.
DarkWarriorKarg 04-10-06, 12:15 PM	Sarlona: The New Order The kalashtar and human monks of Adar stare in shock as the remnants of the mighty Reidran empire seek shelter from their vampiric overlords. "We must meditate on your request," said the Adar leader, Babaorom. Meanwhile, over in Agonessen, the great Ascended worm, Kuchikuchikoo awakens with a headache: "I feel a disturbance, as if a million fanboys cried out in horror."
Naudachu 04-10-06, 01:43 PM	Its also possible that Kauis already knows about the Inspired. So your party may gain a lot of unwanted attention if your Lord-Colonel mentions it. His Kalashtar "friend" will probably be the most suspect. Kauis will probably be very interested to "meet" him. This could either go very badly for them (Kauis sends an extermination squad) or if they gain his trust, then he'll probably want to use their resources. Of course a little of both could happen (the assassination attempt fails and he's forced to listen to your group). Either way I do aggree he'd start training psions, probably in a remote area of Karnnath. Maybe near Icewood with access to the sea and Lhazaar via the Iceflow River. Dealing with the Madborn here could be a cover for psychic experimentation. Of course it would still be top secret. Using House Thuranni and Phiarlan is a great idea. Although depending on your world, Thuranni may have ties to the Blood of Vol, known or unknown.
Splendide 04-10-06, 07:16 PM	Maybe he's already working against the Inspired, and the real reason why Karrnathi are made into undead troops is because its the best way to neutralise someone who has been got at by the Inspired without losing them as an asset to Karrnath. There's probably undeath camps where those suspected of Inspired influence are taken, killed and reanimated.
davethebrave371 04-12-06, 11:13 AM	Good luck to your group. I hope they and you have serious fun with this. With all the ideas in this thread, I'm sure they will. See, this is what I love about Eberron. We got Ask Keith, and then we got fans who are as good if not better in some areas. Not that I wouldn't mind Hellcow's opinion on this matter, just that these are all really good ideas, and I never cease to be impressed with Eberron fans and their crazy brains. Although, I still don't think the Lord-Colonel has evidence enough to convince him.
davethebrave371 07-11-06, 07:53 PM	Sort of on-topic, Keith Baker answered my question as the first in his new column: http://www.bossythecow.com/askthedreamingdark.htm