Kalaraq Mind Seed Antics [Archive] - Wizards Community

Kalaraq Mind Seed Antics [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Titanic Ego
08-31-06, 12:22 AM The Kalaraq Quori from Keith's great Dragon article are some holy terrors (although their mental stats in the article are erroneously 10 points too low). Any Kalaraq (or Kalaraq-inspired), including the Devourer of Dreams and Taratai, possesses the psilike ability to implant a mind seed. This creates a being that is a "mental duplicate," with the host's physical ability scores and eight negative levels. It's fairly clear how this works when an ordinary psion uses it, but analyzing the effects of use by a Kalaraq boggles the mind:

1. First, if a free-floating Kalaraq invader mind seeded a human, would the human have the psilike abilities of the kalaraq? If known powers would transfer, why not abilities?

2. A kalaraq has mental abilities, skills, and HD that are far superior to those of the tsucora, tsoreva, dream master, hasalaq, and du'ulora Quori. Why don't the kalaraq lords simply copy their superior consciousnesses into their lesser minions and greatly enhance the might of Dal Quor? In many ways, such mind seeds would be superior to mind-seeded humans: they would not face a mortal existence and so would be less likely to resent the loss of potential immortality. Admittedly, higher charisma scores make it harder to breed suitable vessels, but the enhanced minor Quori could harass dreams, plan, and perform other tasks on Dal Quor. Regardless, such vessels CAN be bred, as the DoD demonstrates.

3. Does a mind seeded Quori revert to its original personality if it is slain and reformed? Does a Quori boosted to 12+ HD by mindseeding reform with full memories if slain?

4. With possession brought into the picture things become even murkier. A 17th level Inspired telepath has a certain set of psionic powers known, powers that the possessing Quori lacks on its own and that are retained even in its absence, as well as additional skill ranks added to the Quori's. All reports of mindseeded victims make clear that these telepath levels (minus 8) transfer. But we are also told that the mind seed has a true Quori consciousness, personality, and memories. So does it get the same skill ranks as the Inspired performing mind seed (Quori plus 17th level empty vessel's), or just those of the empty vessel? If the former, what happens when the same (or another) Quori possesses the mindseeded vessel? How do you avoid an infinite loop for increasing skill ranks

5. Mind seed grants the target the user's mental ability scores, including CHARISMA, which determines whether a normal human can be willingly possessed. So why doesn't the DoD go around mind seeding random normal humans (not just in espionage schemes), who would then allow themselves to be possessed? With this process the empty vessels would become almost superfluous, as piles of charisma 20+ humans could be created to hold even powerful quori spirits.
Hellcow
08-31-06, 02:30 AM Actually, this is the result of a slip-up in editing. Note that the ability is called "focused mind seed". Well, what's the "focused" mean? The explanation got pulled from the article, apparently. This ability alters the personality of the character to match that of the quori, but does not alter skills or class. In some ways, it's a major advantage for infiltration, because the character still possesses all of the skills he used to and can continue to perform his previous job without any awkward "Um, yes, I USED to be an artificer, but suddenly I don't have those skills." On the down-side, you can't manufacture 12th-level telepaths or perfect hosts. With FMS, all that changes is personality and motivation.

Quori use of mind seed - when they use it, why they might not, what its strengths and weaknesses are - is a subject that will be explored in Secrets of Sarlona. Of course, that's many months away, so please, keep discussing... but answers are coming. ;)
Titanic Ego
08-31-06, 03:22 PM Thanks Keith, I had wondered about the 'focused,' and that modification certainly does reduce the problems greatly, but what about Inspired telepaths who use the ability as a known power rather than a psilike ability? Tirashana, the level 17 telepath from City of Towers, produces mind seeds who are 9th level telepaths, so she clearly seems to be using the regular mind seed as a known psion power. What would be the mental ability scores and skill ranks of those mind seeds relative to Tirashana the Empty Vessel and relative to the Inspired EV/Quori fusion?

Actually, this is the result of a slip-up in editing. Note that the ability is called "focused mind seed". Well, what's the "focused" mean? The explanation got pulled from the article, apparently. This ability alters the personality of the character to match that of the quori, but does not alter skills or class. In some ways, it's a major advantage for infiltration, because the character still possesses all of the skills he used to and can continue to perform his previous job without any awkward "Um, yes, I USED to be an artificer, but suddenly I don't have those skills." On the down-side, you can't manufacture 12th-level telepaths or perfect hosts. With FMS, all that changes is personality and motivation.

Quori use of mind seed - when they use it, why they might not, what its strengths and weaknesses are - is a subject that will be explored in Secrets of Sarlona. Of course, that's many months away, so please, keep discussing... but answers are coming. ;)
Hellcow
08-31-06, 04:33 PM Tirashana, the level 17 telepath from City of Towers, produces mind seeds who are 9th level telepaths, so she clearly seems to be using the regular mind seed as a known psion power. What would be the mental ability scores and skill ranks of those mind seeds relative to Tirashana the Empty Vessel and relative to the Inspired EV/Quori fusion?
In my opinion, the ability scores and skill ranks would be based on those of Tirashana the Empty Vessel, because technically, she's the being manifesting the power. The quori may be controlling her actions, enhancing her Charisma and knowledge, and providing her with access to psi-like abilities, but it's the vessel that has developed the class levels (albeit under the mental guidance of the Inspired), and those are what are used as the basis of the mind seed. Actually, the nature of Inspiration is slightly more complicated than this, and will be explored in Secrets of Sarlona, but I'm going to leave it alone for now; regardless, use the mental stats of the empty vessel, and the base ranks and class levels of the EV without adding in all of the ranks of the spirit.

One thing I will note about this is that this is a limiting factor on Quori "immortality". If you kill Tirashana, the quori spirit will survive (unless you have some other trick up your sleeve). But it may not have another 17th-level vessel ready to go. Inspired do advance rapidly when merged with a quori spirit; essentially, this is an long-term form of mind seed, with the quori reformatting the vessel's brain so it can match the potential of the spirit (in Tirashana's case, 17th-level telepath). So Tirashana II will advance to 17th-level far faster than you'd expect... but it's still a process that could take months or years. If the DM WANTS Tirashana right back in the game, she may have another skilled vessel that she's been holding in reserve (which would require her to spend a certain amount of time in that vessel doing "maintainance", so it's not like she could have an army of them ready to go) or she may borrow the preferred vessel of another powerful Quori. Nonetheless, killing a powerful Inspired vessel is a victory of sorts, because even if the spirit may survive, the loss of the vessel is significant and may cripple the spirit's ability to influence the world for a period of time.

Anyhow, a lot of these issues will be explored in SoS.

(And as a side note, Tirashana could borrow someone else's vessel and suddenly be a psychic warrior... but she couldn't turn a normal vessel into a 17th-level psychic warrior, because telepath is the nature of the inspiration she can provide.)
Titanic Ego
08-31-06, 05:37 PM I like this take, although I wonder about the rate at which knowledge is transferred: will a host get an idea of the Quori's true nature and plans before its personality is completely reformed into a copy of the possessing spirit?

Further, can Inspiration be cumulative, e.g. could the Tirashana empty vessel pick up some additional levels from posession by other Quori that inspire psychic warrior or nomad or shaper abilities? If so, then this opens up the possibility for a Stargate-style 'Hok'taur' or 'superhost.' Such sequential possession would result in an epic-level vessel beyond the capabilities of any lone kalaraq to produce? Here again the limiting factor might be charisma (if the spirits that can inspire high levels are all high-charisma kalaraqs, it would be tough to find an appropriate host), but with level advancement, racial bonuses, charisma-enhancing items, and a high-charisma EV, it doesn't seem at all impossible to start with a vessel from the DoD's lineage (if DoD has higher charisma than the average kalaraq) and produce a superweapon.

Of course it could take years for the sequential possession and adaptation, particularly if the process has diminishing returns, but adding 1 or 2 levels beyond the 20 level telepath peak for a typical DoD host would make it possible for the DoD to develop and use *epic powers* which could be just the tool to defeat the epic spells that block off Dal Quor. Given the difficulty of finding a host from a narrow lineage with a natural 18 charisma, and the extended period of creation, this could be a great target for PCs aiming to inflict a major loss on the Quori: strong enough to cause utter disaster, while hard to replace.

On the other hand, the stress of assimilating so many lawful evil, domineering personalities could warp its mind. A rogue superhost (against the DoD's hierarchy, not necessarily the Quor Tarai) could use dream travel to travel to the actual Devourer of Dreams in Dal Quor and mind seed it. More broadly, a rogue superhost that did not wish to undergo further personality changes would not need to rely on clunky protection from evil effects: it could simply capture any tsucora, mind seed the tsucora, and then let the mindseeded Quori, its mental duplicate, possess it.

Or it might be that the 'rotation' of possessing Quori to build up the superhost would eventually land upon a kalaraq with its own ambitions, or (even less likely) a secret Path of Light sympathizer.

(And as a side note, Tirashana could borrow someone else's vessel and suddenly be a psychic warrior... but she couldn't turn a normal vessel into a 17th-level psychic warrior, because telepath is the nature of the inspiration she can provide.)
Hellcow
08-31-06, 06:17 PM will a host get an idea of the Quori's true nature and plans before its personality is completely reformed into a copy of the possessing spirit?
Ultimately, that's up to you. They will know "this is a powerful spirit that is changing my views on the world" - but they've been indoctrinated since birth to accept that change. Some may say "No... I sense an evil here that shouldn't be" - but, of course, unless the spirit releases them, they can't do much about it. Also, the vessels tied to the spirits of the Dreaming Dark are actually raised apart from the other lines and are more aware of the goals of their masters - because they are trained to be agents of the Dark even when not possessed - so it's not as much of a surprise.

So the quori are fairly careful; they've been doing this successfully for a thousand years, and by now they've worked out most of the kinks in the basic system. But you should do whatever is best for your story.

Further, can Inspiration be cumulative, e.g. could the Tirashana empty vessel pick up some additional levels from posession by other Quori that inspire psychic warrior or nomad or shaper abilities?
The key is that each spirit is actually bound to a particular vessel bloodline (the line that they can possess with no opportunity for the vessels to resist). It is this same connection that allows for involuntary, no-save no-concern-about-Charisma possession that allows for that reshaping. It's possible that a vessel can receive guidance from another quori and advance more quickly down a path than he otherwise would, but nowhere near AS quickly as if he's being inspired by his destined spirit. So Tirashana can "borrow" any willing host, but she has a bond with her own vessels that has been bred into them.

With that said, the quori are always working on developing new, superior vessels - and this is exactly the sort of thing you could use as a basis for the storyline you describe. It's something they're just trying, that could create a superweapon and break the barrier - or go disastrously wrong.

I'm not going to post further on this subject here - I'm spending too much time on the boards as is, and I mainly wanted to clarify the focused mind seed issue - but if you want my personal opinion on something, feel free to Ask the Dreaming Dark! (http://www.bossythecow.com/askthedreamingdark.htm)
Titanic Ego
08-31-06, 08:18 PM Thanks for all your time and ideas then, which have planted the 'seed' of an interesting adventure!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Titanic Ego 08-31-06, 12:22 AM	The Kalaraq Quori from Keith's great Dragon article are some holy terrors (although their mental stats in the article are erroneously 10 points too low). Any Kalaraq (or Kalaraq-inspired), including the Devourer of Dreams and Taratai, possesses the psilike ability to implant a mind seed. This creates a being that is a "mental duplicate," with the host's physical ability scores and eight negative levels. It's fairly clear how this works when an ordinary psion uses it, but analyzing the effects of use by a Kalaraq boggles the mind: 1. First, if a free-floating Kalaraq invader mind seeded a human, would the human have the psilike abilities of the kalaraq? If known powers would transfer, why not abilities? 2. A kalaraq has mental abilities, skills, and HD that are far superior to those of the tsucora, tsoreva, dream master, hasalaq, and du'ulora Quori. Why don't the kalaraq lords simply copy their superior consciousnesses into their lesser minions and greatly enhance the might of Dal Quor? In many ways, such mind seeds would be superior to mind-seeded humans: they would not face a mortal existence and so would be less likely to resent the loss of potential immortality. Admittedly, higher charisma scores make it harder to breed suitable vessels, but the enhanced minor Quori could harass dreams, plan, and perform other tasks on Dal Quor. Regardless, such vessels CAN be bred, as the DoD demonstrates. 3. Does a mind seeded Quori revert to its original personality if it is slain and reformed? Does a Quori boosted to 12+ HD by mindseeding reform with full memories if slain? 4. With possession brought into the picture things become even murkier. A 17th level Inspired telepath has a certain set of psionic powers known, powers that the possessing Quori lacks on its own and that are retained even in its absence, as well as additional skill ranks added to the Quori's. All reports of mindseeded victims make clear that these telepath levels (minus 8) transfer. But we are also told that the mind seed has a true Quori consciousness, personality, and memories. So does it get the same skill ranks as the Inspired performing mind seed (Quori plus 17th level empty vessel's), or just those of the empty vessel? If the former, what happens when the same (or another) Quori possesses the mindseeded vessel? How do you avoid an infinite loop for increasing skill ranks 5. Mind seed grants the target the user's mental ability scores, including CHARISMA, which determines whether a normal human can be willingly possessed. So why doesn't the DoD go around mind seeding random normal humans (not just in espionage schemes), who would then allow themselves to be possessed? With this process the empty vessels would become almost superfluous, as piles of charisma 20+ humans could be created to hold even powerful quori spirits.
Hellcow 08-31-06, 02:30 AM	Actually, this is the result of a slip-up in editing. Note that the ability is called "focused mind seed". Well, what's the "focused" mean? The explanation got pulled from the article, apparently. This ability alters the personality of the character to match that of the quori, but does not alter skills or class. In some ways, it's a major advantage for infiltration, because the character still possesses all of the skills he used to and can continue to perform his previous job without any awkward "Um, yes, I USED to be an artificer, but suddenly I don't have those skills." On the down-side, you can't manufacture 12th-level telepaths or perfect hosts. With FMS, all that changes is personality and motivation. Quori use of mind seed - when they use it, why they might not, what its strengths and weaknesses are - is a subject that will be explored in Secrets of Sarlona. Of course, that's many months away, so please, keep discussing... but answers are coming. ;)
Titanic Ego 08-31-06, 03:22 PM	Thanks Keith, I had wondered about the 'focused,' and that modification certainly does reduce the problems greatly, but what about Inspired telepaths who use the ability as a known power rather than a psilike ability? Tirashana, the level 17 telepath from City of Towers, produces mind seeds who are 9th level telepaths, so she clearly seems to be using the regular mind seed as a known psion power. What would be the mental ability scores and skill ranks of those mind seeds relative to Tirashana the Empty Vessel and relative to the Inspired EV/Quori fusion? Actually, this is the result of a slip-up in editing. Note that the ability is called "focused mind seed". Well, what's the "focused" mean? The explanation got pulled from the article, apparently. This ability alters the personality of the character to match that of the quori, but does not alter skills or class. In some ways, it's a major advantage for infiltration, because the character still possesses all of the skills he used to and can continue to perform his previous job without any awkward "Um, yes, I USED to be an artificer, but suddenly I don't have those skills." On the down-side, you can't manufacture 12th-level telepaths or perfect hosts. With FMS, all that changes is personality and motivation. Quori use of mind seed - when they use it, why they might not, what its strengths and weaknesses are - is a subject that will be explored in Secrets of Sarlona. Of course, that's many months away, so please, keep discussing... but answers are coming. ;)
Hellcow 08-31-06, 04:33 PM	Tirashana, the level 17 telepath from City of Towers, produces mind seeds who are 9th level telepaths, so she clearly seems to be using the regular mind seed as a known psion power. What would be the mental ability scores and skill ranks of those mind seeds relative to Tirashana the Empty Vessel and relative to the Inspired EV/Quori fusion? In my opinion, the ability scores and skill ranks would be based on those of Tirashana the Empty Vessel, because technically, she's the being manifesting the power. The quori may be controlling her actions, enhancing her Charisma and knowledge, and providing her with access to psi-like abilities, but it's the vessel that has developed the class levels (albeit under the mental guidance of the Inspired), and those are what are used as the basis of the mind seed. Actually, the nature of Inspiration is slightly more complicated than this, and will be explored in Secrets of Sarlona, but I'm going to leave it alone for now; regardless, use the mental stats of the empty vessel, and the base ranks and class levels of the EV without adding in all of the ranks of the spirit. One thing I will note about this is that this is a limiting factor on Quori "immortality". If you kill Tirashana, the quori spirit will survive (unless you have some other trick up your sleeve). But it may not have another 17th-level vessel ready to go. Inspired do advance rapidly when merged with a quori spirit; essentially, this is an long-term form of mind seed, with the quori reformatting the vessel's brain so it can match the potential of the spirit (in Tirashana's case, 17th-level telepath). So Tirashana II will advance to 17th-level far faster than you'd expect... but it's still a process that could take months or years. If the DM WANTS Tirashana right back in the game, she may have another skilled vessel that she's been holding in reserve (which would require her to spend a certain amount of time in that vessel doing "maintainance", so it's not like she could have an army of them ready to go) or she may borrow the preferred vessel of another powerful Quori. Nonetheless, killing a powerful Inspired vessel is a victory of sorts, because even if the spirit may survive, the loss of the vessel is significant and may cripple the spirit's ability to influence the world for a period of time. Anyhow, a lot of these issues will be explored in SoS. (And as a side note, Tirashana could borrow someone else's vessel and suddenly be a psychic warrior... but she couldn't turn a normal vessel into a 17th-level psychic warrior, because telepath is the nature of the inspiration she can provide.)
Titanic Ego 08-31-06, 05:37 PM	I like this take, although I wonder about the rate at which knowledge is transferred: will a host get an idea of the Quori's true nature and plans before its personality is completely reformed into a copy of the possessing spirit? Further, can Inspiration be cumulative, e.g. could the Tirashana empty vessel pick up some additional levels from posession by other Quori that inspire psychic warrior or nomad or shaper abilities? If so, then this opens up the possibility for a Stargate-style 'Hok'taur' or 'superhost.' Such sequential possession would result in an epic-level vessel beyond the capabilities of any lone kalaraq to produce? Here again the limiting factor might be charisma (if the spirits that can inspire high levels are all high-charisma kalaraqs, it would be tough to find an appropriate host), but with level advancement, racial bonuses, charisma-enhancing items, and a high-charisma EV, it doesn't seem at all impossible to start with a vessel from the DoD's lineage (if DoD has higher charisma than the average kalaraq) and produce a superweapon. Of course it could take years for the sequential possession and adaptation, particularly if the process has diminishing returns, but adding 1 or 2 levels beyond the 20 level telepath peak for a typical DoD host would make it possible for the DoD to develop and use epic powers which could be just the tool to defeat the epic spells that block off Dal Quor. Given the difficulty of finding a host from a narrow lineage with a natural 18 charisma, and the extended period of creation, this could be a great target for PCs aiming to inflict a major loss on the Quori: strong enough to cause utter disaster, while hard to replace. On the other hand, the stress of assimilating so many lawful evil, domineering personalities could warp its mind. A rogue superhost (against the DoD's hierarchy, not necessarily the Quor Tarai) could use dream travel to travel to the actual Devourer of Dreams in Dal Quor and mind seed it. More broadly, a rogue superhost that did not wish to undergo further personality changes would not need to rely on clunky protection from evil effects: it could simply capture any tsucora, mind seed the tsucora, and then let the mindseeded Quori, its mental duplicate, possess it. Or it might be that the 'rotation' of possessing Quori to build up the superhost would eventually land upon a kalaraq with its own ambitions, or (even less likely) a secret Path of Light sympathizer. (And as a side note, Tirashana could borrow someone else's vessel and suddenly be a psychic warrior... but she couldn't turn a normal vessel into a 17th-level psychic warrior, because telepath is the nature of the inspiration she can provide.)
Hellcow 08-31-06, 06:17 PM	will a host get an idea of the Quori's true nature and plans before its personality is completely reformed into a copy of the possessing spirit? Ultimately, that's up to you. They will know "this is a powerful spirit that is changing my views on the world" - but they've been indoctrinated since birth to accept that change. Some may say "No... I sense an evil here that shouldn't be" - but, of course, unless the spirit releases them, they can't do much about it. Also, the vessels tied to the spirits of the Dreaming Dark are actually raised apart from the other lines and are more aware of the goals of their masters - because they are trained to be agents of the Dark even when not possessed - so it's not as much of a surprise. So the quori are fairly careful; they've been doing this successfully for a thousand years, and by now they've worked out most of the kinks in the basic system. But you should do whatever is best for your story. Further, can Inspiration be cumulative, e.g. could the Tirashana empty vessel pick up some additional levels from posession by other Quori that inspire psychic warrior or nomad or shaper abilities? The key is that each spirit is actually bound to a particular vessel bloodline (the line that they can possess with no opportunity for the vessels to resist). It is this same connection that allows for involuntary, no-save no-concern-about-Charisma possession that allows for that reshaping. It's possible that a vessel can receive guidance from another quori and advance more quickly down a path than he otherwise would, but nowhere near AS quickly as if he's being inspired by his destined spirit. So Tirashana can "borrow" any willing host, but she has a bond with her own vessels that has been bred into them. With that said, the quori are always working on developing new, superior vessels - and this is exactly the sort of thing you could use as a basis for the storyline you describe. It's something they're just trying, that could create a superweapon and break the barrier - or go disastrously wrong. I'm not going to post further on this subject here - I'm spending too much time on the boards as is, and I mainly wanted to clarify the focused mind seed issue - but if you want my personal opinion on something, feel free to Ask the Dreaming Dark! (http://www.bossythecow.com/askthedreamingdark.htm)
Titanic Ego 08-31-06, 08:18 PM	Thanks for all your time and ideas then, which have planted the 'seed' of an interesting adventure!