Karrn tactics [Archive] - Wizards Community

Karrn tactics [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
troysandlin
12-01-07, 05:00 PM I'm getting ready to start my Eberron campaign and I want it to start with a bang. The PCs are all part of the Cyran millitary during the battle at Artur(sp) in Karnath to destroy the "creation-crypts" used to create the undead soldiers. I was just wondering what kinds of things you all thought the Karrns would do as far as battle tactics and such?
The one thing I thought of was a zombie-catapult. A number of Karrn zombies would be encased in a semi-protective ball that is shot out of a catapult. The ball would break on impact, releasing the undead soldiers. Not only would the ball do damage and crush enemies but you could get a large number of undead way behind enemy lines real fast.
Put those evil DM-brains together and give me some more.
Thanks.
Lanodantheon
12-02-07, 12:47 AM Although I like the idea of that Zombie Catapult, so much more can be done. In the end, it's your game so you can do anything you please, these are just my opinions.
First of all, quick recap of simple facts:
1. The Battle of Atur according to Forge of War started as a stealth invasion, so the Karrns are on Defense. The Catapult you provided is the ultimate siege weapon, but it won't do much good here. They aren't going to siege their own Crypts.

2. Karrns are decedents of Karrn the Conqueror. Karrn was one of the greatest military minds in the History of Khorvaire. He was Sun Tzu, Ceasar and Alexander the Great all rolled into one. Karrns use tactics derived from his writings and nothing else, they are not very creative people in that regard. Whatever tactics they use, make sure they are very predictable. Use very Orthodox tactics, lines of troops with Phalanxes maybe.

3. Just because Karrns use undead doesn't mean all their tactics will be based around necromancy and undeath. Karrnath is not Hollowfaust from Scarred Lands, so keep that in mind. I personally think that undead are used as heavy hitters, like tanks and cavalry. When they are used, they are used very economically. One thought I had was for the indoors, house-to-house fighting: a Karrnathi-Zombie with a permanent Stinking Cloud on him. Think logically, getting the most bang for their gold piece.

4. Atur is on the defensive, so think about the kind of ghoulies they are cooking up in there. Use any creature in Libri Mortis for some flavor, that'll spook em.

That's all I got.
Nived
12-02-07, 12:53 AM Flooded trenches with Karrnathi Skeletons standing in them. Can't rain down arrows down upon them, being underwater blocks them from most magical artillery. They'll tear down any bridge that you try to lay and the Host help anyone who tries to cross the hard way.

An alternate of the same strategy is that these flooded trenches would be very muddy and dark, in this variant the enemy is allowed to cross... then the undead rise up out of the trenches effectively surrounding the enemy
troysandlin
12-02-07, 04:26 PM Thank you Lanodantheon and Nived for your thoughts and insights.
I should clarify how I was going to use the zombie catapult.
The first part of the battle at Atur was defensive but didn't Karrn troops from the north come down and chase the invading Cyrans back to Metrol?
The catapult would be a new weapon and probably a lot more manuverable than the seige engines we know of. The routing force of Karrns would have a few of these to bring to bare on the invading Cyrans.
The thought I had was the campaign would start as the initial attack was winding down. The city has been sacked and the crypts have been disabled. As the Cyrans are "cleaning up" before they leave the open field in front of the crypts erupts with buried undead to surround the remaining troops. That should tie them up long enough for the troops to the north to arrive with their new toys.
And yes, I need to get my hands on Libris Mortis. =)
Hope that helps get your creative juices flowing.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard
12-03-07, 06:58 AM The "use" of undead depends on the Karns view of undead. As I understand it, the don't see them as disposable troops or monsters, but as fellow citizen which are to be respected and honored for their loyalty and bravery even after death. Think more of Barbarossa, Holger Danske or King Arthur returning from the dead to protect his country.
Using them as a "trench mine" or catapult ammunition... well... would you expect your war-hero grandpa who is so nice as to still fight for your life and your freedom even after being hacked to pieces by those degenerate Cyran to agree to that kind of abuse?

If you are looking for a way to stress the Karn way of fighting, I'd emphasize these points:

- Tireless. Merciless. Fearless. An important thing about undead troops is their immunity to fatigue. A zombie, walking 24 h, crosses a greater distance than an unencumbered light warhorse travelling for 12. When mortal troops are fatigued, frightened, hungry, the skeleton goes on and on. When a human soldier might show mercy to a wounded or unarmed enemy, the ghoul takes the opportunity for an easy meal. There is no retreat, no rest, no mercy when fighting the undead.

- Superiority/Arrogance. This, in combination with the Karn dislike for innovative fighting tactics, suggests that they rely on brute force, individual fighting ability (the typical karn soldier is a 1st level Warrior - not a lowly Commoner!) and superior morale (after all, the enemy are not even Karns).
While Cyre is civilized, socially and culturally advanced, Karns are educated and intelligent, but appear to have kept their ancient ruthlessness against themselves and their enemies alike. Think of the pacific war between the US and Japan, where japanese troops kept fighting even in absolutely hopeless situations, didn't hesitate to torture, kill and experiment on their pows, and knew they were to win by heavenly decreed superiority (drawing on old schoolbook knowledge, so please don't take this to be accurate - it's just to illustrate my point). Personally, I'd be terrified to fight the japanese in this setting. When they'd be supported by fricking undead ninjas and samurais, hell, who'd dare to fight that!?

If you are looking for some spectacular events in the battle, make use of undead abilities:

- Darkvision. Imagine a nighttime battlefield lit only by torches and burning siege engines, where scattered troops are frequently ambushed by Karn Undead.

- Looking dead. Even after destroying a Karn unit, you can never be sure they really are dead. Maybe half of them rise again in the most inopportune of moments.

- Information. Having fought you before. Karnathi Undead are war veterans. They are dead - probably killed in this very war, and possibily even by the same force attacking their home country now. They might have brought knowledge about their enemy back from the grave.

- Creating spawns. Wights, Shadows and some other easy to create / control undead are able to turn the enemy's fallen against their living brethren. Teleport/summon (or catapult, if that is really necessary) a Spawner right into the enemy troops, and their mages/artificiers/archers will have little alternative to slaughtering their own troops instead of seeing them turned into undead. A shadow can cross enemy lines in the ground without any danger to himself.

- Immunities / Damage Reduction. There is little danger in firing into melee when your allies are undead (DR 5 vs. 1d6 dmg from a shortbow...). Imagine the "fight in the shade" scene from 300, only with Zombies tearing away the spartans' shields. "This is shashlik!"

- Morale issues. Imagine guarding your army's camp by night, always watchful for undead attackers. The sound of ghouls slowly tearing the flesh of your fallen comrades' bones. Diseases run rampart, and the rations can hardly be called food. Wounded soldiers are screaming and crying in your camp, while in the Karn camp, only song and the occasional death cry can be heard. You will only lose more and more friends each day. Their wounded and fallen will return as undead the next morning. Who'd be willing to fight animals like that?

- Pure fighting power. More powerful undead may disable a whole army. A mummy will terrify/paralyze and smash a whole army row by row. Incorporeal undead are almost invincible - immune to mundane weapons, and able to hide in the ground from magic attacks. A zombie Ettin or Hill Giant Skeleton can take on a Warforged Titan (esp. if equipped and supported thoughtfully). Even a single Ghast placed in a unit will make about 75% of the enemy much less able to fight back - even mortal soldiers can accompany the ghast, as long as they were exposed to his stench within 24 h before the battle.
Haulbrands
12-03-07, 07:51 AM The intent of the zombie catapult is good, but the haphazard delivery of it shows little planning. You'll damage the zombies on impact for starters, but because its not a properly weighted catapult shot, you don't get the full impact of a good catapulting either.

To achieve the same effect (surprise attack behind the line), a well-planned Karrnathi defense would involve buried zombies that only come out of their holes when they are behind enemy lines. And they could've been there for YEARS.

It is also entirely possible that the defences of these factories involve chokepoints that they actively intend to surrender first, specifically because of the subterranean zombie caches in those areas.

This is good in two ways. If the enemy don't know this strategy, then obviously an area they though they had just seized is thrown into chaos...and if the enemy do know this strategy, then they will become extraordinarily suspicious of any `easily' conceded territory. Win-win.

In essence, I think the basis of Karrnath strategy is having extremely reliable contingencies. When a Karrn is aggressive, it would typically be because they are confident they have a winning answer for any response you may give.
troysandlin
12-03-07, 05:03 PM Burying the undead in a field for later activation is in one of the Eberron books. I'm not sure which one at the moment. So, I figure that if they don't mind putting them in the ground for a later date they probably don't mind giving them a toss either.
As for damaging the undead being catapulted that's why I put them in a protective shell. I'm not concerned with the exact science of it. I just picture this ball being flung toward the enemy and breaking up on impact and these bodies come flying out. A few seconds later imagine the horror when these bodies begin to rise and start fighting. I just like the feel of it.
I'm really liking all the imput. Thank you all.
korcheck
12-03-07, 05:24 PM The "use" of undead depends on the Karns view of undead. As I understand it, the don't see them as disposable troops or monsters, but as fellow citizen which are to be respected and honored for their loyalty and bravery even after death. Think more of Barbarossa, Holger Danske or King Arthur returning from the dead to protect his country.
Using them as a "trench mine" or catapult ammunition... well... would you expect your war-hero grandpa who is so nice as to still fight for your life and your freedom even after being hacked to pieces by those degenerate Cyran to agree to that kind of abuse?

But they would have no problems with using the dead bodies of the enemy they take as literal cannon fodder. The fact that the Karrns would take your own dead and use them against you would be a very chilling thought on the battle field. The only undead they saw as sort of respected and honored were the ones that became Karrnathi undead as in the ECS. IIRC the process they use on these undead requires that they first be loyal karrnathi. Also they didn't have enough of their own dead that met the requirements to do this specific treatment to all undead so most of them would just be your run of the mill zombies and skeletons.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard
12-04-07, 12:22 AM I agree that undead created from the enemy's fallen wouldn't get any respect from their creators.

It is not entirely clear, however, to what extent non-karns were animated. The initial undead legion was partly created from non-karns, which is described as being frowned upon (Forge of War, p. 14, end of first column / beginning of second). Later, animation of foreigners occured (Forge of War, p. 32, 2nd paragraph), but doesn't appear to be commonplace.

Light undead infantry units consist partly of "run of the mill" zombies and skeletons, but the other part and all heavy undead infrantry troopers are Karnathi undead (Forge of War, p. 53-54). So, only a fraction of a fraction even could have been created from foreigners.

So, I'd say disrespectful use of undead can hardly be a common tactic among Karns, as non-Karn Undead are not that common. The mentality in their use is difficult to determine. As foreigner undead obviously are a controversial matter, one might except that the Karns used them primarily in non-obvious places (nighttime patrols, operations in enemy territory). Catapulting them across the battlefield... well... perhaps a bit too offensive.

Think of real world parallels: Mistreatment (*cough* understatement *cough*) of prisoners is one thing if you keep them in secluded camps in the middle of nowhere (of off-shore). Parading them out in the open or using them as cannon fodder against the enemy, well, that might make even your own people question your humanity. Giving your people an opportunity to ignore your questionable actions is the of primary concern in committing warcrimes. ;-)
korcheck
12-04-07, 10:55 AM Have you ever heard the story of the real pirates of the caribbean? at one point a certain ships captain brought his forces overland in a night raid and after taking the village used the populace to go ahead of his people up the walls of the keep there making them literally cannon fodder. War crimes and morals are only worried about after the war. What makes Eberron unique is the fact that they had a group of people who could go after these types during the war. This doesn't stop things from happening completely though. I could see Karrnath doing something like this.
Cuaglar
12-04-07, 02:45 PM Poor Cyrans... Why doesn't someone come up with THEIR winning strategies? Looks like the OP's players are doomed.
Soltares
12-04-07, 02:58 PM When using undead, the best thing to remember is their many immunities.

Ruthless arcanists (or priests) could make use of many area affecting spells that will have no effect at all upon their undead troops, such as the aforementioned Stinking Cloud, but also affects such as Fear. Non-arcanists have resources such as poison or plague, which again, will not affect their undead troops in the slightest. Adverse or extreme weather conditions will tend to similarly hinder their mortal foes, whether extremes of cold or heat, while their own undead will march unhindered.

Specific immunities or Damage Reduction may also prove useful, as human artillerists in the back lines fling caltrops and spikes, perhaps smeared with Filth Fever, into the fray, knowing that the Piercing damage from such shrapnel barrages will have no effect on their Skeletal troops. [Filth Fever, as a non-contagious effect, is particularly appropriate for these sorts of undead troops, as the human commanders wouldn't have to worry about accidentally spreading a plague among their own human troops!]

Sending in 'suicide troops' of undead to befoul or burn food or water supplies can also disproportionately affect enemy forces, which will have a much greater need for food and drink than a Karrnathi force of equivalent strength. A single vampire commander, able to move as a mist through an enemy encampment and summon rats and vermin to consume and befoul their food supplies, would be able to deal a tremendous blow against an enemy force.

For all of their advantages, the Karrnathi might be hindered by extreme pride in their military ability, and perhaps an excess of 'lawful' behavior. They've gone far outside the box by sending in waves of undead, but they are still sending in waves, probably marching in orderly ranks, rather than using guerilla tactics or unorthodox strategies. It's like they've decided to continue using the same old rules of engagement, but with undead, instead of human troops, making them potentially vulnerable to a smaller force, engaging them on it's own terms and then retreating. (As undead cannot be out-run, some sort of stalling tactic would be needed to make a retreat work, as the Karn commander could just send his tireless troops after the retreating attackers, knowing that they will have to stop eventually...)

The reliance on undead could also prove to be a setback, when faced with foes with powerful spells or class abilities effective against undead. They've put a lot of eggs in the undead basket, and might find themselves unprepared for a fight that starts with their front-line Turned, or worse, Commanded, by an enemy force!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
troysandlin 12-01-07, 05:00 PM	I'm getting ready to start my Eberron campaign and I want it to start with a bang. The PCs are all part of the Cyran millitary during the battle at Artur(sp) in Karnath to destroy the "creation-crypts" used to create the undead soldiers. I was just wondering what kinds of things you all thought the Karrns would do as far as battle tactics and such? The one thing I thought of was a zombie-catapult. A number of Karrn zombies would be encased in a semi-protective ball that is shot out of a catapult. The ball would break on impact, releasing the undead soldiers. Not only would the ball do damage and crush enemies but you could get a large number of undead way behind enemy lines real fast. Put those evil DM-brains together and give me some more. Thanks.
Lanodantheon 12-02-07, 12:47 AM	Although I like the idea of that Zombie Catapult, so much more can be done. In the end, it's your game so you can do anything you please, these are just my opinions. First of all, quick recap of simple facts: 1. The Battle of Atur according to Forge of War started as a stealth invasion, so the Karrns are on Defense. The Catapult you provided is the ultimate siege weapon, but it won't do much good here. They aren't going to siege their own Crypts. 2. Karrns are decedents of Karrn the Conqueror. Karrn was one of the greatest military minds in the History of Khorvaire. He was Sun Tzu, Ceasar and Alexander the Great all rolled into one. Karrns use tactics derived from his writings and nothing else, they are not very creative people in that regard. Whatever tactics they use, make sure they are very predictable. Use very Orthodox tactics, lines of troops with Phalanxes maybe. 3. Just because Karrns use undead doesn't mean all their tactics will be based around necromancy and undeath. Karrnath is not Hollowfaust from Scarred Lands, so keep that in mind. I personally think that undead are used as heavy hitters, like tanks and cavalry. When they are used, they are used very economically. One thought I had was for the indoors, house-to-house fighting: a Karrnathi-Zombie with a permanent Stinking Cloud on him. Think logically, getting the most bang for their gold piece. 4. Atur is on the defensive, so think about the kind of ghoulies they are cooking up in there. Use any creature in Libri Mortis for some flavor, that'll spook em. That's all I got.
Nived 12-02-07, 12:53 AM	Flooded trenches with Karrnathi Skeletons standing in them. Can't rain down arrows down upon them, being underwater blocks them from most magical artillery. They'll tear down any bridge that you try to lay and the Host help anyone who tries to cross the hard way. An alternate of the same strategy is that these flooded trenches would be very muddy and dark, in this variant the enemy is allowed to cross... then the undead rise up out of the trenches effectively surrounding the enemy
troysandlin 12-02-07, 04:26 PM	Thank you Lanodantheon and Nived for your thoughts and insights. I should clarify how I was going to use the zombie catapult. The first part of the battle at Atur was defensive but didn't Karrn troops from the north come down and chase the invading Cyrans back to Metrol? The catapult would be a new weapon and probably a lot more manuverable than the seige engines we know of. The routing force of Karrns would have a few of these to bring to bare on the invading Cyrans. The thought I had was the campaign would start as the initial attack was winding down. The city has been sacked and the crypts have been disabled. As the Cyrans are "cleaning up" before they leave the open field in front of the crypts erupts with buried undead to surround the remaining troops. That should tie them up long enough for the troops to the north to arrive with their new toys. And yes, I need to get my hands on Libris Mortis. =) Hope that helps get your creative juices flowing.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 12-03-07, 06:58 AM	The "use" of undead depends on the Karns view of undead. As I understand it, the don't see them as disposable troops or monsters, but as fellow citizen which are to be respected and honored for their loyalty and bravery even after death. Think more of Barbarossa, Holger Danske or King Arthur returning from the dead to protect his country. Using them as a "trench mine" or catapult ammunition... well... would you expect your war-hero grandpa who is so nice as to still fight for your life and your freedom even after being hacked to pieces by those degenerate Cyran to agree to that kind of abuse? If you are looking for a way to stress the Karn way of fighting, I'd emphasize these points: - Tireless. Merciless. Fearless. An important thing about undead troops is their immunity to fatigue. A zombie, walking 24 h, crosses a greater distance than an unencumbered light warhorse travelling for 12. When mortal troops are fatigued, frightened, hungry, the skeleton goes on and on. When a human soldier might show mercy to a wounded or unarmed enemy, the ghoul takes the opportunity for an easy meal. There is no retreat, no rest, no mercy when fighting the undead. - Superiority/Arrogance. This, in combination with the Karn dislike for innovative fighting tactics, suggests that they rely on brute force, individual fighting ability (the typical karn soldier is a 1st level Warrior - not a lowly Commoner!) and superior morale (after all, the enemy are not even Karns). While Cyre is civilized, socially and culturally advanced, Karns are educated and intelligent, but appear to have kept their ancient ruthlessness against themselves and their enemies alike. Think of the pacific war between the US and Japan, where japanese troops kept fighting even in absolutely hopeless situations, didn't hesitate to torture, kill and experiment on their pows, and knew they were to win by heavenly decreed superiority (drawing on old schoolbook knowledge, so please don't take this to be accurate - it's just to illustrate my point). Personally, I'd be terrified to fight the japanese in this setting. When they'd be supported by fricking undead ninjas and samurais, hell, who'd dare to fight that!? If you are looking for some spectacular events in the battle, make use of undead abilities: - Darkvision. Imagine a nighttime battlefield lit only by torches and burning siege engines, where scattered troops are frequently ambushed by Karn Undead. - Looking dead. Even after destroying a Karn unit, you can never be sure they really are dead. Maybe half of them rise again in the most inopportune of moments. - Information. Having fought you before. Karnathi Undead are war veterans. They are dead - probably killed in this very war, and possibily even by the same force attacking their home country now. They might have brought knowledge about their enemy back from the grave. - Creating spawns. Wights, Shadows and some other easy to create / control undead are able to turn the enemy's fallen against their living brethren. Teleport/summon (or catapult, if that is really necessary) a Spawner right into the enemy troops, and their mages/artificiers/archers will have little alternative to slaughtering their own troops instead of seeing them turned into undead. A shadow can cross enemy lines in the ground without any danger to himself. - Immunities / Damage Reduction. There is little danger in firing into melee when your allies are undead (DR 5 vs. 1d6 dmg from a shortbow...). Imagine the "fight in the shade" scene from 300, only with Zombies tearing away the spartans' shields. "This is shashlik!" - Morale issues. Imagine guarding your army's camp by night, always watchful for undead attackers. The sound of ghouls slowly tearing the flesh of your fallen comrades' bones. Diseases run rampart, and the rations can hardly be called food. Wounded soldiers are screaming and crying in your camp, while in the Karn camp, only song and the occasional death cry can be heard. You will only lose more and more friends each day. Their wounded and fallen will return as undead the next morning. Who'd be willing to fight animals like that? - Pure fighting power. More powerful undead may disable a whole army. A mummy will terrify/paralyze and smash a whole army row by row. Incorporeal undead are almost invincible - immune to mundane weapons, and able to hide in the ground from magic attacks. A zombie Ettin or Hill Giant Skeleton can take on a Warforged Titan (esp. if equipped and supported thoughtfully). Even a single Ghast placed in a unit will make about 75% of the enemy much less able to fight back - even mortal soldiers can accompany the ghast, as long as they were exposed to his stench within 24 h before the battle.
Haulbrands 12-03-07, 07:51 AM	The intent of the zombie catapult is good, but the haphazard delivery of it shows little planning. You'll damage the zombies on impact for starters, but because its not a properly weighted catapult shot, you don't get the full impact of a good catapulting either. To achieve the same effect (surprise attack behind the line), a well-planned Karrnathi defense would involve buried zombies that only come out of their holes when they are behind enemy lines. And they could've been there for YEARS. It is also entirely possible that the defences of these factories involve chokepoints that they actively intend to surrender first, specifically because of the subterranean zombie caches in those areas. This is good in two ways. If the enemy don't know this strategy, then obviously an area they though they had just seized is thrown into chaos...and if the enemy do know this strategy, then they will become extraordinarily suspicious of any `easily' conceded territory. Win-win. In essence, I think the basis of Karrnath strategy is having extremely reliable contingencies. When a Karrn is aggressive, it would typically be because they are confident they have a winning answer for any response you may give.
troysandlin 12-03-07, 05:03 PM	Burying the undead in a field for later activation is in one of the Eberron books. I'm not sure which one at the moment. So, I figure that if they don't mind putting them in the ground for a later date they probably don't mind giving them a toss either. As for damaging the undead being catapulted that's why I put them in a protective shell. I'm not concerned with the exact science of it. I just picture this ball being flung toward the enemy and breaking up on impact and these bodies come flying out. A few seconds later imagine the horror when these bodies begin to rise and start fighting. I just like the feel of it. I'm really liking all the imput. Thank you all.
korcheck 12-03-07, 05:24 PM	The "use" of undead depends on the Karns view of undead. As I understand it, the don't see them as disposable troops or monsters, but as fellow citizen which are to be respected and honored for their loyalty and bravery even after death. Think more of Barbarossa, Holger Danske or King Arthur returning from the dead to protect his country. Using them as a "trench mine" or catapult ammunition... well... would you expect your war-hero grandpa who is so nice as to still fight for your life and your freedom even after being hacked to pieces by those degenerate Cyran to agree to that kind of abuse? But they would have no problems with using the dead bodies of the enemy they take as literal cannon fodder. The fact that the Karrns would take your own dead and use them against you would be a very chilling thought on the battle field. The only undead they saw as sort of respected and honored were the ones that became Karrnathi undead as in the ECS. IIRC the process they use on these undead requires that they first be loyal karrnathi. Also they didn't have enough of their own dead that met the requirements to do this specific treatment to all undead so most of them would just be your run of the mill zombies and skeletons.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 12-04-07, 12:22 AM	I agree that undead created from the enemy's fallen wouldn't get any respect from their creators. It is not entirely clear, however, to what extent non-karns were animated. The initial undead legion was partly created from non-karns, which is described as being frowned upon (Forge of War, p. 14, end of first column / beginning of second). Later, animation of foreigners occured (Forge of War, p. 32, 2nd paragraph), but doesn't appear to be commonplace. Light undead infantry units consist partly of "run of the mill" zombies and skeletons, but the other part and all heavy undead infrantry troopers are Karnathi undead (Forge of War, p. 53-54). So, only a fraction of a fraction even could have been created from foreigners. So, I'd say disrespectful use of undead can hardly be a common tactic among Karns, as non-Karn Undead are not that common. The mentality in their use is difficult to determine. As foreigner undead obviously are a controversial matter, one might except that the Karns used them primarily in non-obvious places (nighttime patrols, operations in enemy territory). Catapulting them across the battlefield... well... perhaps a bit too offensive. Think of real world parallels: Mistreatment (cough understatement cough) of prisoners is one thing if you keep them in secluded camps in the middle of nowhere (of off-shore). Parading them out in the open or using them as cannon fodder against the enemy, well, that might make even your own people question your humanity. Giving your people an opportunity to ignore your questionable actions is the of primary concern in committing warcrimes. ;-)
korcheck 12-04-07, 10:55 AM	Have you ever heard the story of the real pirates of the caribbean? at one point a certain ships captain brought his forces overland in a night raid and after taking the village used the populace to go ahead of his people up the walls of the keep there making them literally cannon fodder. War crimes and morals are only worried about after the war. What makes Eberron unique is the fact that they had a group of people who could go after these types during the war. This doesn't stop things from happening completely though. I could see Karrnath doing something like this.
Cuaglar 12-04-07, 02:45 PM	Poor Cyrans... Why doesn't someone come up with THEIR winning strategies? Looks like the OP's players are doomed.
Soltares 12-04-07, 02:58 PM	When using undead, the best thing to remember is their many immunities. Ruthless arcanists (or priests) could make use of many area affecting spells that will have no effect at all upon their undead troops, such as the aforementioned Stinking Cloud, but also affects such as Fear. Non-arcanists have resources such as poison or plague, which again, will not affect their undead troops in the slightest. Adverse or extreme weather conditions will tend to similarly hinder their mortal foes, whether extremes of cold or heat, while their own undead will march unhindered. Specific immunities or Damage Reduction may also prove useful, as human artillerists in the back lines fling caltrops and spikes, perhaps smeared with Filth Fever, into the fray, knowing that the Piercing damage from such shrapnel barrages will have no effect on their Skeletal troops. [Filth Fever, as a non-contagious effect, is particularly appropriate for these sorts of undead troops, as the human commanders wouldn't have to worry about accidentally spreading a plague among their own human troops!] Sending in 'suicide troops' of undead to befoul or burn food or water supplies can also disproportionately affect enemy forces, which will have a much greater need for food and drink than a Karrnathi force of equivalent strength. A single vampire commander, able to move as a mist through an enemy encampment and summon rats and vermin to consume and befoul their food supplies, would be able to deal a tremendous blow against an enemy force. For all of their advantages, the Karrnathi might be hindered by extreme pride in their military ability, and perhaps an excess of 'lawful' behavior. They've gone far outside the box by sending in waves of undead, but they are still sending in waves, probably marching in orderly ranks, rather than using guerilla tactics or unorthodox strategies. It's like they've decided to continue using the same old rules of engagement, but with undead, instead of human troops, making them potentially vulnerable to a smaller force, engaging them on it's own terms and then retreating. (As undead cannot be out-run, some sort of stalling tactic would be needed to make a retreat work, as the Karn commander could just send his tireless troops after the retreating attackers, knowing that they will have to stop eventually...) The reliance on undead could also prove to be a setback, when faced with foes with powerful spells or class abilities effective against undead. They've put a lot of eggs in the undead basket, and might find themselves unprepared for a fight that starts with their front-line Turned, or worse, Commanded, by an enemy force!