Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Catryn008 04-19-07, 04:30 PM	I have the blessing/curse of having some very intellectual players who like to think and uncover things beyond the hack and slash of a standard dungeon crawl. I have a character who is currently Lawful Neutral, a cleric/magic, with one level of the true necromancer prestige class, who is going under a lawful question of faith in Karrnath. He is a son of Karrnath, his family is from there and he served as a corpse collector for the MotD during the last few years of the war; so, this has the potential to shatter his reality (and cause an alignment shift, the first I've ever DM'ed). I introduced in the last game some information that the Ministry was doing some amoral and possibly unlawful acts during the war. The information was about 50 years old, but it got his attention. So now, he's wondering if the very existence of undead have corrupted Karrnath, so that pre-war Karrnath isn't the same Karrnath that exists now. Although none of the E books allude to this, in fact it seems that they stress that the general population there has been no ill effects. It seems that all the bad influence points more to the BoV, which is where I was heading with this. But my dilemna is this, he has paid a researcher to find out if any laws have been changed since the start of the war, things that would have been considered out right against the law but now have been rewritten due to the influence of the undead. I explained that some of them had been changed (ie, mainly around the owning of the undead--more property laws), but he is searching for something a more. Now the character is fine if nothing comes up, but I'd really like to mess with him. My problem is that I'm horrible with law, personally. I tend to be more of a chaotic person, so I need some help with ideas about what might have changed. So I'm here asking for help! :) I know the kingdom is under the Code of Kaius, but not really sure what that means exactly.
Hideous Phidias 04-20-07, 12:16 AM	What goverment has not done something unlawful. I mean look at Thrane and the Pruge,Lawful Good and killing some normal people and shifters can be overlooked because it is for the greater good. I would say from the books and novels I have read that necromancy has be in Karrnath for a very long line. I remember something in the SI about Heads of nobles and King Karrn or somthing. I would not worry to much about the laws of the land, sure they have changed during the war, when did th Minister of the Dead come about. this seems a good place for a new plot hook. If he is part of the E Claw or the Blood of Vol maybe have some evidence that shack his faith. Or maybe have im cross the path of E Claw agents who are doing things against the laws with the dead. Remeber the E Claw is on the outs with the king and they have gone underground.
Bluebrush 04-20-07, 06:17 AM	Suggestion: Under the code of Galifar, undead have no rights. (Though I don't think this is in the books, and is probably just something KB mentioned somewhere.) When the Blood of Vol started helping out Kaius I, he might have had to change the law so sentient undead (Vampires, mummies, etc) have at least some rights so they can better serve the Kingdom. Nowadays, Kaius III may have revoked those rights to make things difficult for the Emerald Claw's masters. He may also have made it within the rights of the state to seize any undead controlled by a private citizen without much fuss or paperwork, again, to make things difficult for the Emerald Claw and possibly to give other nations the idea that if there's a new war they can field a lot of undead very quickly.
Melvin the Mediocre 04-20-07, 08:31 AM	One possibility for your researcher to uncover is the revocation of a law that states all soldiers killed in the line of duty have the right to a proper funeral. At the same time a new law put into place states that all corpses of soldiers killed in the line of duty are to be delivered to the ministry of the dead for proper handling. Additional research might indicate that over time the ministry of the dead sent fewer and fewer bodies home to be buried by family members as more and more were sent to undead factories and laboratories.
Cifer 04-20-07, 10:02 AM	I know the kingdom is under the Code of Kaius, but not really sure what that means exactly. Essentially it means that Kaius can deviate from the Code of Galifar as much as he wants (as long as his people or his warlords don't revolt) without others saying "But the Code of Galifar says...!"
Nuclear_Buddha 04-20-07, 02:30 PM	What goverment has not done something unlawful. I mean look at Thrane and the [Purge],Lawful Good and killing some normal people and shifters can be overlooked because it is for the greater good. How is that unlawful? It's not wholly "good," but self-defense, even if it's overzealous, is compatible with the ideal of "law." Also, it was the Church that did it, not the Thranish government (at the time of the Purge, the two were not one and the same. Anyway, I kind of assumed Karrnath was under martial law. The undead and their rights is probably only covered under the Code of Kaius such that it allows them to exist as the property (or wards, perhaps?) of the state. The Code of Kaius has always struck me as something that was pretty self-serving for the rulers of Karrnath, considering that the guy named it after himself.
yossarius 04-20-07, 03:55 PM	it sounds like you're looking not so much for a plot hook, but rather just some indications that the mere presence of massive amounts of undead in Karrnath have a negative effect on its citizens. If that's the case, the evolution of legal preceedings is an odd place to look for it, but okay, let's see what we can do. Let's suppose that "Drumhead" trials have become more common in Karrnath since the use of undead soldiers became more prevalent. In such cases, the accused in question is simply automatically assumed guilty, and any meaningful defense is simply denied. Next, perhaps the number of lynchings in Karrnath have also risen over this period of time. The people may have begun taking the law into their own hands more and more. And more then that, but also that local governments seem less and less likely (or even interested) in bringing to justice those who do this. Finally, suppose that the number of "crimes of passion" committed during this time have also gone up. Violent murder, violent rape, assault, arson, etc. Now, the fact that all these behaviors have risen don't necessarily mean that the presence of undead are the cause. However, when these numbers are graphed against each other, what if these three things rise at the exact same rate as the rate of population growth of undead in Karrnath? I would think that, for a character so details-oriented, that might seem rather chilling. I hope this is what you were looking for.
Catryn008 04-20-07, 04:01 PM	You guys are awesome. Thanks so much! And keep 'em coming, this is incredible stuff. And you are right, its not a true plot-hook, but part of an on-going plot. I just got stuck on where I needed to go next.
Ashlock 04-20-07, 04:45 PM	This is an awesome topic. One I think is pretty unique to Eberron and Karrnath specifically. I think when the Blood of Vol first came to power in Karrnath, a lot of things changed. Out of desperation. But the question, even if the laws were altered, well....so what? Karrnath is a monarchy with a very powerful king. There may be a large number of militant warlords not happy with their peace-loving king, but ultimately the animate dead is what kept Karrnath powerful. I don't think anything in the sourcebooks will help you in this. I think a lot of politics are deliberately left out so that DMs can run it in whatever direction they want.
Catryn008 04-20-07, 05:33 PM	I agree Ashlock, but my problem is I, as a DM, don't know where to go with it, so I was asking what other DMs might do in this situation. :) I'd ask the most experienced DM in our group, but you see he's the player asking for this info. :rolleyes: I love to see the responses, it really makes me think beyond my little world.
Catryn008 05-23-07, 12:02 PM	Ok, I've finally found some time to write this up. What do you guys think? I don't think I'm quite finished, but I wanted to see what you thought. ________________________________________ ________ Rhaan 19, 998 YK Respected Lord ir’Alor, As per your request, I have completed the research you requested of me. You will find it accompanying this letter. I do hope that this meets with your satisfaction. If you are in need of any more research please do not hesitate to ask. As per our agreement, I am still owed 500 Sovereigns and I have arranged to send this package CoD. The Orien courier has been instructed to receive payment before he will release the contents. Respectfully, George Degroot Librarian Researcher, Korth Research Report: Karrnathi Laws, over the past 200 years. Has the presence of the undead affected them? As can be expected, I discovered that there were many laws that have changed in the time period that you specified. Whether or not these are due to the presence of the Blood of Vol and the use of undead, it will always remain speculation as those who made the laws did not record their intent in most cases. It is important I feel, to state that Karrnath was under martial law from almost the very beginning of the Last War. Prior to that, it was possible to find civilian courts and justice in the larger metropolitan areas like Korth, Karrlakton, and Vedykar. When martial law was declared, these were disbanded and all matters of law and justice are handled by the military, which is usually under the influence of a warlord who has been appointed by the King. The most obvious ones are where I shall start, those that deal with the matters of undead and the Blood of Vol specifically. As all children of Karrnath know, in 895 King Kaius I recognized the Blood of Vol as the official religion of Karrnath. Previous to this, there was no national religion. The majority of the population—it is assumed—followed the Sovereign Host at that time. Many of the temples to the Host were seized by the government over the next twenty years. Some were converted to the Blood of Vol, others were converted to governmental buildings, or simply left to fall into disrepair. So this is the first and most obvious influence of the Blood of Vol on the laws of Karrnath. It didn’t take long before the first undead were seen in Karrnath. But of course you know this, given your rank within the military of Karrnath. In 895, the first laws regarding undead were put on the books. During this time they were only protected if they were the property of the military of Karrnath. Private ownership of undead was outlawed. This law was quickly overturned two years later, presumably from the Blood of Vol, as undead are central to the religion. The new law simply stated that the government could seize any privately owned undead without repercussion. This law is still in effect currently. Next is the establishing of rights for the sentinent undead, usually mummies, vampires, etc. They had to swear fealty to Karrnath and become a documented citizen of Karrnath with military service mandatory, unless they were a priest of the Blood of Vol. The citizenship papers of the Karrnathi undead are unavailable for public review as it is maintained in the Ministry of the Dead’s headquarters in Korth. The rights of these undead citizens of Karrnath, are more limited than the rights of the living citizens of Karrnath. If any seek to own land they must seek approval through the crown. An interesting law that was applied to the books in 969 YK, was the one that removed the guarantee that Karrnathi soldiers had a right to a proper formal funeral. The nobles were excluded from this law, but the commoners in Karnnath simply received a missive that informed them that their son or daughter had perished and was continuing to serve the nation through the Ministry of the Dead. There are indications that this law removed the protection of the Noble families’ rights to their children’s body in isolated incidents. Under the code of Galifar, which Karrnath operated prior to the Last War, it was generally accepted that a person was innocent until proven guilty. Under the Code of Kauis, this is no longer true. The accused are guilty until they can prove their innocence. In 995, King Kauis III revokes the Blood of Vol as the national Karrnathi religion. And he outlaws the military group known as the Emerald Claw. The only reason this group is mentioned is that they utilized the undead in almost all their known missions.
Melvin the Mediocre 05-24-07, 10:44 AM	Another thought occurred to me: Would Kaius have done anything about office, title, or ownership usually being granted "for life"? Like maybe change them to "for existance"? I know plan A is "don't get found out", but I wonder if he would have a plan B incase he does get caught.
kentonblack 05-24-07, 09:13 PM	However, when these numbers are graphed against each other, what if these three things rise at the exact same rate as the rate of population growth of undead in Karrnath? I would think that, for a character so details-oriented, that might seem rather chilling. I hope this is what you were looking for. And yet again I am startled by the number of truly genius DM's out there
Rechan 05-24-07, 09:25 PM	Let us know how your character reacts. This information doesn't seem to be enough to convince me, but it might be enough to convince him.
mfloyd3 05-24-07, 10:39 PM	I don't know if there is anything in the books to contradict this, but here is a pretty chilling possibility: The number of legal executions has increased roughly fiftyfold since the start of the war. The researcher cannot find any cases in which laws have changed significantly, but somehow, after the introduction of undead in the military, tribunals and magistrates have sent many more people to the gallows than at any other time in the nation's history. Perhaps they felt it was their patriotic duty.
Catryn008 05-25-07, 12:59 PM	Perhaps they felt it was their patriotic duty. I love you guys! *sniff, sniff* I'm thinking that what I'll do is send an additional letter from a priest of the Sovereign Host who the player had made the first contact with when he was trying to find out this info. I think this letter will be explaining more of the info about the repercussions of the changes in the laws... like more people being executed, rises in crimes of passions, etc.
Kitaki 05-26-07, 12:45 PM	Ya, I like the idea of the increase in executions and a subplot behind that.
elbrop 05-27-07, 02:02 AM	Perhaps an article cut from a medical journal noting the apparent drop in children being born, or maybe even more disturbing an increase in the child mortality rates. How about a copy of a letter from a priest to her bishop that mentions that she isn’t performing as many marriages as she used to, with a note written by the bishop at the bottom “This is getting strange Jacob, another of my people brought up an apparent drop in marriages. Maybe you should talk to the Archbishop next time you see him."
yossarius 05-27-07, 11:34 AM	And yet again I am startled by the number of truly genius DM's out there Yeah, recognize, fool! Seriously, though, I'm a little surprised by this reaction. My response wasn't all that thought out. I just typed what occurred to me at that moment. I'm glad you liked it.
Catryn008 06-06-07, 09:11 PM	Here's the letter from the priest of the Sovereign Host: M’E I know you have been warned, but I feel that I wouldn’t be doing my duty if I didn’t. Becareful in your search, the questions you ask can be viewed as traitorous if the wrong ears were to hear them. I believe you are looking for the answers because it is the right thing to do, and that is why I am writing you now. Watch your back. We live under the Code of Kaius. I have been asking myself why you would have come into my domain and ask what you did. I ask because it got me to thinking about it as well. While I answered you as much as I could regarding matters of law, I realized that I could have offered more from a different perspective. Morals. My grandfather was a priest to the Sovereign Host during the time the Blood of Vol rose to power within Karnnath. His writings were handed down to my father and then to me. I hadn’t thought of them in years, but it seemed the guidance offered within is needed. My grandfather’s recording of the events never struck me as odd, until I started comparing his recordings with the recordings of my father and then of my own observations. One of the first observations that worried my grandfather was the changing of the laws to make all who were charged with crimes guilty. It now was the burden of the accused to prove their innocence. As I’ve grown up where this is the normal, I didn’t realize why this would upset him so. I believe I understand now. Instead of starting on a clean slate, like the Code of Galifar gives in other countries, the slate is already marred. He also noted that it seemed that meaningful defense was denied in most of the cases. Only those with money, noble blood or in positions of power were able to get any defense that had a chance of proving their innocence. My father recorded that eventually the meager defense was harder and harder to get, to where eventually the militia, warlords, and priests of Vol where the decision makers on whether a person was guilty or innocent. It goes without saying that many of the poor where proven guilty than in comparison to the noble monied families. Another observation my grandfather found during the last years of his life was that the crimes of passion seemed to be on the rise. It was shocking to him to see so much violence hidden under the guise of passion. It became common that if anyone was brought before the courts was not sentenced to jail time or death, instead they were sent into the military. Regardless of their age. My father also gave evidence that the general population seemed to succumb to violence eaiser as the years of the war continued. He seemed to think it was due to the stress of the war, famine, and the presence of the Blood of Vol. In my time, I have seen more public lynchings than my father or grandfather ever recorded. And many of them are not sponsored by the official leaders of the communities. The villagers have taken it upon themselves to dispense justice. And because they are enraged with emotion, they have frequently lynched an innocent man. But the warlords and others look the other way. Rarely do you hear of a warlord, general, or even the King, getting involved in these unofficial acts. Yes, the warlords, generals, and the King do order executions, but what I speak about are not ordered. It is when a man thinks his wife is no longer faithful to him and so he gets together a mob. The mob then attacks and eventually kills the man in their rage. No matter if the man declares his innocence, they will not listen. And if the man is not connected to people in power, his life is forfeit. Then when the drunken rage has abated, it is discovered that the man was a different man or that the wife was never unfaithful. Yet, the militia do not arrest the men who have done this crime. The warlords never demand their names. It is like everyone looks the other way. I find it strange that they will arrest any who are said to have spoken ill of Karnnath or the King yet, they do nothing to protect those who need the protection. I have been taught those are the ones I am to help. I believe those are who we all need to help. S The PC doesn't know he's getting this, so hopefully this and the previous research he's done will start piecing things together. I have added a twist that this PC has a sister he was never told about because she was kidnapped and turned into an undead by an insane MoD member. The family was told to keep quiet as they had given their daughter to the glory of Karnnath. So it was like she never existed. He just found a page of the diary of the crazy MoD member that mentions his sister. (I loved it, he looked at me and said, "Oh you went there!")
Kaodi 06-06-07, 10:18 PM	I think it would be a major stretch to say that there were ever laws relating to the citizenship of powerful undead in Karrnath. I just looked up the Sacrament of the Blood in Faiths of Eberron, the ritual where Blood of Vol worshippers each ceremonially draw some blood and collect it. Most followers don't even know that the blood is in fact used for necromantic purposes. Part of the success of the sinister elements in the Blood of Vol is that very few actually know what they are up to, what they are, etc, etc, etc. A noticeably higher mortality rate in infants and children, as well as a lower average age for the elderly would not be a bad idea, but if you take any idea too far you come to the question " Why has no one risen up in a major rebellion against this? " . Under the Code of Kaius, crime and punishment should be harsher than the other nations, but I do not see people being framed by the authorities for crimes. Maybe by each other in some cases, but I think Kaius, figuratively speaking, is not the bloodthirsty fiend he is literally. He would be a very law and order type, likely. Break the law, and you get in a lot of trouble, but follow the law and you can generally be treated fairly. I think the laws you would be looking to are the ones related to the conduct of people in power. For the Ministry to have done something unlawful, it must of course be against basic principles in the Code of Kaius. Where things get mucked up is in the treatment of the people making the decisions. Look for laws with loopholes that can be exploited by those in the know, not ones that you can jump through on the back of an elephant.
ArrowBlue 06-06-07, 10:32 PM	I think there was something to the comment about the rise in death by execution. Not sure if you have access to Magic of Eberron, but the creature Urdark kind of follows the that path with necromantic experimentation on a sociopathic prisoner. This could lead somewhere with cruel, neglegent and abusive treatment of prisoners both while they are living and undead.
Catryn008 06-07-07, 12:01 PM	ArrowBlue, Its funny you mention that, as I've already incorporated the Urdark into the storyline. :) Kaodi, Actually I agree with you on the veiwpoint that Kaius himself is lawful. What I feel has happened that has the level of power has trickled down from Kaius, there is more room for the corruption of the understanding of law. And I have even been thinking about weaving in an element that is "hiding" these obvious law breaks from those who are in the position of power to actually do something. I'm thinking it will be the Emerald Claw or the remanents of the BoV. You know start unraveling the society at the bottom so that when the rebellion comes, Kaius is "surprised" (yeah right). Or the ball has started rolling so far that he can't stop it by the time he realizes what has happened. My player's character is Lawful Neutral, so I'm having to show a disregard for the laws that his life revolves around. Something simply not being good or right isn't enough to provoke him. But I agree, there needs to be loopholes not gaping holes. But I don't know if I want to get into that deep of a discussion/development of the laws of the land--especially when the players will be moving to Sharn eventually. And my reasoning for adding the law of the evolved undead holding property was so that Kaius himself could hold property. I'm sure its not a well-known law, and in fact measures could be started to amend it or to make it one of the lesser known laws... Hmmm.
Kaodi 06-07-07, 04:44 PM	Look for the list of spells that are illegal to cast in Sharn: City of Towers, and then go through the necromantic ones are pick ones that might be of particular use to necromancers and the undead. Perhaps those spells have had the penalties and fines reduced for using them in Karrnath during the Last War. Also, perhaps there has been a law which removed the authority of some authorities to prosecute crimes committed by certain parties, though they are in fact still " illegal " . Maybe there would be a loophole that allowed people who formerly held sufficient rank in the military to have to answer only to a person of superior rank. So, for instance, someone in the Ministry was a former Colonel, or whatever the Karrnathi equivalent is, and can only be held to account by a General who the Minister answers to, or the King. The former in which has no interest in prosecuting, and the latter which doesn't have the time to deal with a matter deemed to be not serious enough.