Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Uratoh 09-11-06, 06:19 PM	So what exactly IS the procedure for creating the Karrnathi skeletons and zombies? If say, a PC wanted to do it. Obviously the equipment would be their own to provide, but a Karnn necromancer should know how this sort of thing is done...
PoeticJustice 09-12-06, 12:59 AM	Not necessarily. Karrnathi undead are like six times as powerful as their common equivalents. Were it my campaign, I'd say they were created by some kind of Eldritch Machine. Failing that, I'd tie it into create undead with a caster level prereq of nine.
Drag0nUL 09-12-06, 01:01 AM	Unforunately to my knowledge there is no official material on the creation fo Karrnathi zombies/skeletons, so I think you will have to improvise a bit. Looking at the Karrnathi skeleton description, I would go with a 3 step process: first you take a dead human skeleton upon which you cast hardening('its bones have been alchemically treated to make him more resilient'-of course you can devise other means to do this-either spells or alchemy); then you cast animate dead to create the skeleton; finally you need a spell to imbue the skeleton with intelligence, I have no idea what to use here, but maybe an arcane version of awaken would work.
Nived 09-12-06, 01:13 AM	The only way I know of for a PC to create a Karrnathi Undead is a 5th level bone knight "Fill the Ranks" according to the description it's a modified version of "Animate Dead", however the fastest you could get to Bone Knight 5 would be Paladin 4/Bone Knight 5... 9th level. So Poetic Justice's suggestion of Create Undead with a Caster Level of 9 is not out of bounds... actually its quite in line with what's been established.
Drag0nUL 09-12-06, 09:09 AM	Not necessarily. Karrnathi undead are like six times as powerful as their common equivalents. Were it my campaign, I'd say they were created by some kind of Eldritch Machine. Failing that, I'd tie it into create undead with a caster level prereq of nine. I don't think the Eldritch Machine idea is very realistic. As far as I know, Eldritch Machines are quite a rare thing in Eberron and Karrnathi Undead were produced on quite a large scale...enough to avoid the certain defeat of Karrnath. On the other hand the cl9 requirement seems a bit high for Eberron. The bone knight is a class built for commanding undead, not for creating them, so it makes sense for a dedicated necromancer to be able to do ths earlier. And also make note that the high priest of the Blood of Vol(the originators of the Karrnathi undead) is only cleric/8. If it were my campaign I'd stick to a low caster level, but make it a very elaborate process that can't be undertaken on the front lines(or by the PC's: like the bodies of fallen soldiers must be taken to a special facility where they must firt be immersed for let's say a week into some sort of alchemical fluid to increase their resilience and then being animated as undead through a modified 'animate dead', possibly incuding the use of dragonshards.
Nived 09-12-06, 12:50 PM	I disagree, in Tales of the Last War we see a cleric on the battlefield raising undead into Karrnathi Zombies in (don't quote me I don't have the book handy but I think it was) Edward Bolme's short story. Also even if you don't think the Bone Knight's level should be equal to a Necro's level for raising them, the Bone Knight's casting time certainly shows it to be pretty quick. Lets come at it from another direction. In D&D how does one go about improving the stats of the undead they raise. In Libris Mortis we are offered undead crafting feats. Now, granted, The difference between a regular skelleton and a Karrnathi skelleton go beyond the power of those feats... but if we place restrictions, "Caster must be Karrnathi, The body to be animated must have served in the Karrnathi military, cl4 (just a guess)" Perhaps it could be used.
Drag0nUL 09-12-06, 01:03 PM	I disagree, in Tales of the Last War we see a cleric on the battlefield raising undead into Karrnathi Zombies in (don't quote me I don't have the book handy but I think it was) Edward Bolme's short story. Also even if you don't think the Bone Knight's level should be equal to a Necro's level for raising them, the Bone Knight's casting time certainly shows it to be pretty quick. Lets come at it from another direction. In D&D how does one go about improving the stats of the undead they raise. In Libris Mortis we are offered undead crafting feats. Now, granted, The difference between a regular skelleton and a Karrnathi skelleton go beyond the power of those feats... but if we place restrictions, "Caster must be Karrnathi, The body to be animated must have served in the Karrnathi military, cl4 (just a guess)" Perhaps it could be used. I am not familiar with any of the D&D novels(nearly impossible to get where i live) but are you sure the book speaks of the Karrnathi skeleton/zombie type and not just oridnary skeletons/zombies seving Karrnath?(no disrespect intended-just asking because literature might be a bit vague with game mechanics terms). On your idea about the feat I thnik is good. But I wonder, do intelligent skeletons/zombies retain any memory of their former life? Because if they don't, you can drop the part with 'The body to be animated must have served in the Karrnathi military'. Why animate only your fallen warriors when you can do the same to the enemy?
DragonWatcher 09-12-06, 01:10 PM	Although there's no written rule on this (that I'm aware of), Hellcow has stated that it is actually the Karrnathi Soldier's loyalty and strong will to continue fighting for his King and Country even after death that allows some Karrnathi corpses to be animated as Karrnathi undead. That no other bodies will suffice. While you are, of course, free to ignore this, I find that it gives additional flavor to the creation of these enhanced undead... and I keep this as an essential part of their creation in my games.
Ashlock 09-12-06, 02:00 PM	I am almost certain that most rank and file undead soldiers are the usual MM version of skeletons and zombies. But then the next step up are the Karrnathi skeletons and zombies from the ECS. Also, the way such things are described in novels are written according to a charactr's point of view. The undead in Ed Bolme's short story are very likely just regular zombies (with Karrnathi arms). The ones in the ECS are probably just commanders or special units. It's Karrnath's willingness to raise their own dead that makes them so feared (and hated) among other nations, not the sheer power of their every soldier. In strict game terms, it would severely unbalance the war if entire Karrnath armies were full of CR 3 soldiers!