Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jhaelen 07-08-04, 07:56 AM	I did some calculations and came up with the following figures: 44% Humans (24% Breland, 24% Thrane, 19% Karrnath, 15% Aundair) 9% Dwarves (31% Mror, 31% Karrnath, 18% Breland, 14% Thrane) 9% Half-Elves (27% Breland, 23% Aundair, 17% Thrane, 15% Karrnath) 7% Gnomes (48% Breland, 20% Aundair, 14% Zilargo) 6% Halflings (32% Talenta, 25% Karrnath, 15% Breland) 6% Goblinoids (69% Darguun, 16% Breland) 6% Elves (34% Breland, 25% Aundair, 23% Karrnath, 11% Thrane, 3% Valenar) 4% Orcs (41% Marshes, 25% Wastes, 17% Breland, 14% Droaam) 4% unspecified (this includes the monstrous humanoids in Droaam) 2% Changelings (56% Breland, 23% Lhazaar, 15% Aundair) 1% Shifters (49% Eldeen, 36% Aundair) 1% Demons (Wastes) less than 1%: Lizardfolk (Q'barra), Kobolds (Darguun, Q'barra), Gnolls (Droaam), Half-Orcs (Marshes, Wastes) less than 0,1%: Warforged (Mournland), Kalashtar (-) Things to note: - though humans dominate Khorvaire they make up less than 1/2 of the total population - about 1/3 of all dwarves live in Mror - the most common non-human races are dwarves and half-elves - almost 1/2 of all gnomes live in Breland, less than 1/6 in Zilargo - about 1/3 of all halflings live in Talenta - goblinoid 'subraces': about 1/2 goblins, 1/4 hobgoblins, 1/10 bugbears, rest unspecified - about 1/3 of all elves live in Breland, less than 1/30 live in Valenar; about 2 1/3 times as many elves live in Aerenal - about 2/3 of all orcs live in the marshes and wastes - over 1/2 of all changelings live in Breland, they are quite common in Lhazaar - almost 1/2 of all shifters live in Eldeen - there are more demons in Khorvaire than there are half-orcs (about 3 times as many) - warforged and kalashtar are exceptionally rare in Khorvaire The most striking things, IMHO: - The Valenar elves are really just a small splinter group of the elves (even if you look only at those in Khorvaire)! - There are very few half-orcs, they are greatly outnumbered by any other race (except warforged and kalashtar)! - The newly introduced Eberron races only make up about 1/30 of the overall population in Khorvaire! - Warforged will be REALLY, REALLY rare! In contrast to the Kalashtar there is no other continent where you'll find any! While these numbers don't say much about the racial preferences for player characters (who are after all always exceptional individuals), I think they should be held in mind, when creating npcs. There is one factor that isn't reflected by these numbers, though: Which percentage of a given race will have levels in a character class? I'd guess the percentage of warforged or of the kalashtar encountered in Khorvaire that will have levels in a character class will be uncharacteristically high compared to other races (probably almost 100% for warforged).
Dwilgar 07-08-04, 08:38 AM	I think you need to be slightly careful in how you count the population lesser represented races. Members of these races may have been included in the "unspecified" catagory for several of the countries. I can definitely see this being the case for half-orcs, warforged, and kalashtar. In the case of warforged, I thought I remember Kieth mentioning total numbers on the order of 600,000 in all of Korvaire. This would amount to slightly under 4% of the total population. Your number of 0.1% warforged would lead to there being only 16,000 warforge, a number I believe is much too low. Dwilgar
Jhaelen 07-08-04, 09:48 AM	Originally posted by Dwilgar In the case of warforged, I thought I remember Kieth mentioning total numbers on the order of 600,000 in all of Korvaire. This would amount to slightly under 4% of the total population. Your number of 0.1% warforged would lead to there being only 16,000 warforge, a number I believe is much too low. Dwilgar Well, since there are only 4% 'unspecified' altogether, the warforged can hardly make up slightly less than 4%, unless almost all of the 'unspecified' are actually warforged, which I strongly doubt. This can mean one (or more) of the following things: 1. Keith's estimate is wrong. 2. The numbers in the ECS are wrong. 3. The percentages I calculated are wrong.
TwoSix26 07-08-04, 11:58 AM	Do you have a spreadsheet with this information? I'd be really interested in seeing it.
TrappedMind 07-08-04, 09:51 PM	2% chagelings? That's what they want you to think...
Darkest90 07-08-04, 10:34 PM	For some reason I do not believe that. Did you count up percentages or actual population figures?
ChronosCrow 07-09-04, 03:39 AM	Wo boy do I hate math, I'll just stick over here in my painting corner.
Sebby 07-09-04, 04:36 AM	These numbers are quite strange. Especially what they show about elves and gnomes. My very personal and discutable opinion: I do not think that it was intended to end up like that. I think that game book authors in general do not care enough about numbers that add up, concentrating more on the "substance" of their works, the creative stuff. They probably assigned populations to the different nations, then split those with racial ratios. I doubt they approached it even once like you did. That is not the only odd thing about population numbers in Eberron. As I pointed out in another thread, the population is spread very thinly on such a big continent. I evaluated the area of Khorvaire and came up with a figure that is slightly higher than the area of North America. All for some 15-16 millions citizens, plus the odd monster here and there. With so much room, why bother with war? Where's the pressure? Why are some druid sects concerned about the impact of civilization on the natural world? They are either paranoid, or they beleive in adressing that problem very, very early. Why are the Lhazaar pirates such a problem, with so few people to plunder waters and coastlines the size of northern Canada's islands? and if their most powerful prince does not even command 10 boats? And why is his closest rival even annoyed at him, he's thousands of miles away on a warmer island! Anyway, it's easily fixed. Just make up some new population numbers. Keith, Bill and James are artistic people, not statisticians. That population thing probably never occured to them. I guess that what I am saying is that people with cartesian minds, like you and me probably, will find that the numbers in most gaming books are very easy to take apart, when you look at such details.
Jhaelen 07-09-04, 02:00 PM	Originally posted by Sebby My very personal and discutable opinion: I do not think that it was intended to end up like that. I think that game book authors in general do not care enough about numbers that add up, concentrating more on the "substance" of their works, the creative stuff. They probably assigned populations to the different nations, then split those with racial ratios. I doubt they approached it even once like you did. [...] Keith, Bill and James are artistic people, not statisticians. That population thing probably never occured to them. I guess that what I am saying is that people with cartesian minds, like you and me probably, will find that the numbers in most gaming books are very easy to take apart, when you look at such details. Yep, that's exactly what I think, too :) It's still a pity the numbers don't fit. But you can't have everything I guess. Looking at the different regions on their own, I am pretty pleased, they are all very distinctive. Each lends itself to a certain kind of adventuring style, I think. Another thing that is odd, though: Although travel is said to be an important part of Eberron adventures, it's actually quite expensive to do much traveling (using the lightning rail at least). I wonder how they solved this in the first official adventure that is to be published soon. To Darkest90: I calculated the population figures for each region first, then added them up and calculated the Khorvaire figures. To TwoSix26: Unfortunately I don't. I didn't plan on calculating all the figures at first, but as it often happens when I start doing some calculations, I kind of got carried away (did I mention my calculations about the effectiveness of action points? ;)) However, since it's rather easy to do, maybe I'll create one when the mood strikes me :) To TrappedMind: Psst! Don't let anyone know we're already the majority in Khorvaire! This has to be kept a secret between us changelings ;)
Sebby 07-09-04, 02:47 PM	Originally posted by Jhaelen Another thing that is odd, though: Although travel is said to be an important part of Eberron adventures, it's actually quite expensive to do much traveling (using the lightning rail at least). I wonder how they solved this in the first official adventure that is to be published soon. Yep. Those house Orien guildmasters must be many-orders-of-magnitude-over-filthy rich. Price for a Lightning Rail Coach: 58,000 gp Price for a passenger wagon: unknown, but under 58,000 gp is my guess. Income from 200 passengers going from Sharn to Wroat (475 miles x 5 sp x 200 passengers): 47,500 gp That is an operation that pays for itself in a few trips. Add a few dozen more for the conductor stone lines, at the worse. The rest is pure profit, even after taking off the ridiculously low wages of the crew. The kind of money this little racket must generate each day acoss the continent boggles the mind. Hell, when I'm back with loot from Xen'drik, I'm buying Transportation Guild shares!
Psionocus 07-09-04, 11:19 PM	My guess is that the monsters in the wilderness constantly killing people and using up resources is what keeps the population down. Also I imagine there were alot of deaths in the Last War. It's D&D, humanoids have to share the place with lots of other things. In terms of sheer ecological impact, a dragon probably counts as 1000 humans. Not that there are many dragons on Khorvaire. There are only so many animals that each square mile of land can support, especially with generally medieval technology. I agree about the lightning-rail rates being way too high.....I'm thinking that instead of charging by the mile, they should set up reasonable rates for each route. Another unknown expense however is the conductor stones. They are described as being nearly minor artifacts. That 475 mile line between Sharn and Wroat has at least 500000 of them. Maybe they are still paying off the initial expense, or perhaps they require regular maintenance? The ECS is unclear on these issues.
Sebby 07-10-04, 07:31 PM	The people-eating monsters theory is not enough to explain that, and poses other questions as well, like: with so many people being eaten by monsters, why are people spread so thin? It would make more sense to live closer, in or around walled cities, and those cities close to one another, not hundreds of miles distant like they are in Khorvaire. To be spread as wide as the map shows, the population has to be higher than that. Else, it does not make sense from any point of view, economic or strategic. And even by the lowliest Dark Age Europe measures, the population of Khorvaire is still way too low. See that thread:Population estimates too low (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=273145). Multiplying the pop by, say, 5 still leaves ample room for a lot of monsters, and makes for a much more realistic, medieval-like civilization.