Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 03-19-05, 02:34 PM	Just curious as I'm thinking of possible campaign ideas.
JohnnyONeal 03-19-05, 02:41 PM	My impression is that the dragons could destroy even a united Khorvaire, though the Aerenal elves could step in and muster the full strength of the Undying Court to tip the balance... maybe. Of course, the dragons are too busy with studying the Prophecy and too busy fueding among themselves to team up against the humans. It would be as hard to unite them as it would be to unite all the races of Khorvaire. Anyway, that kind of world-shaking conflict can only turn out well with the intervention of one powerful force: the PCs.
nyysjan 03-19-05, 03:18 PM	well in my vision Dragons are not united not even in Elf vs Dragon war If all Dragons were to unite and muster all their power and resources they could probably wipe out all off eberron surface clean of all life but unless Dragonic prophecy demands it i doubt you could ever unite all or even most of the dragons under a single cause
Charles Phipps 03-19-05, 04:19 PM	well in my vision Dragons are not united not even in Elf vs Dragon war If all Dragons were to unite and muster all their power and resources they could probably wipe out all off eberron surface clean of all life but unless Dragonic prophecy demands it i doubt you could ever unite all or even most of the dragons under a single cause It was a thought that the prophecy indicated that they would have to go to war with Khovaire for some reason (maybe even they decided to go to war solely because they read they did in the stars) Just curious how populated and/or powerful the Dragon continent was in your mind.
MarkB 03-19-05, 04:39 PM	It was a thought that the prophecy indicated that they would have to go to war with Khovaire for some reason (maybe even they decided to go to war solely because they read they did in the stars) Just curious how populated and/or powerful the Dragon continent was in your mind. Personally, I'd put Argonessen's draconic population at a fair percentage of Khorvaire's humanoid population - anywhere between 20% and 100%+ is possible, though the former is more likely.
DolArrah 03-19-05, 05:26 PM	I would say like 120%, as dragons have clutches of 5 often and if they had beem preparing for a long time, they could keep each alive. ALso, since they live a long time, they won't die out.
Titanic Ego 03-19-05, 05:41 PM	Personally, I'd put Argonessen's draconic population at a fair percentage of Khorvaire's humanoid population - anywhere between 20% and 100%+ is possible, though the former is more likely. Seriously? The species that actually eat food (as opposed to vapors or pearls or other weirdness) consume hundreds or thousands of times as much food as humans. Also, when I asked Hellcow why the dragons didn't simply breed up a massive population and do whatever the hell they wanted, he said that the dragons are a declining race, with their power and fertility declining with each generation from the progenitors. All of the other powerful races have fixed numbers (demons, quori, angels, etc) by a "spiritual conservation law" so it makes sense that some similar check might apply to the dragons. Perhaps the conception of new dragons taps the residual energies of the progenitors, so that new dragons can only be hatched as old ones perish, just like new quori only manifest when others die.
Jagermeister 03-19-05, 06:01 PM	My opinion; the Dragons. Here is why. When the Quori invaded Xen'drik, the aftermath left the remaining Giant Kingdoms in desperation. The elves rebelled, plagues and curses swept through the lands, etc. Before the Giants could unleash the same destruction used on the Quori on the Elves(presumably), the Dragons stepped in and attacked. Giant civilization crumbles as a result. Compare that situation to Khorvaire. Khorvaire is to some degree also recovering from a cataclysmic event; The Last War. It is also worth noting that the Giants had a civilization far more advanced than anything on Khorvaire, and even they could not hold out against the might of the Dragons. I assume by the title you are excluding Aerenal? I probably wouldn't ever run such a conflict in my campaigns, but that is my :twocents: on the matter. "Only the dead are the victors of war, for only they have seen the end of it."
Edymnion 03-19-05, 06:06 PM	I'd say that Khovaire wouldn't stand a chance. Of course, thats also because I believe "Dragon Magic", like what they taught the giants so they could sever the planar link, is this setting's name for Epic level magic. I personally believe (and will run) that the Dragons taught Epic level magic to the Giants so they could defend themselves, then destroyed the Giants when they refused to stop using the Epic level stuff. Which is also what I believe happened to Cyre, that they had finally discovered how to create Epic level magic, Dragon Magic, and were about to use it in the War. The Dragons then oblitterated Cyre to ensure that the secret never got out, and that they will do it again should Epic level magic been seen anywhere else. Which would be another good reason why there are no epic level characters in Khovair, or the rest of the world really. The Dragons jealously guard their secrets, and people that develop that kind of power are seen as a MAJOR threat to prophesy, and are removed from the picture by any means necissary.
MarkB 03-19-05, 06:13 PM	Seriously? The species that actually eat food (as opposed to vapors or pearls or other weirdness) consume hundreds or thousands of times as much food as humans. Also, when I asked Hellcow why the dragons didn't simply breed up a massive population and do whatever the hell they wanted, he said that the dragons are a declining race, with their power and fertility declining with each generation from the progenitors. All of the other powerful races have fixed numbers (demons, quori, angels, etc) by a "spiritual conservation law" so it makes sense that some similar check might apply to the dragons. Perhaps the conception of new dragons taps the residual energies of the progenitors, so that new dragons can only be hatched as old ones perish, just like new quori only manifest when others die. Hmm, I have to say that I dislike that stylistically - "magic goes away" settings in which the world goes from magical to mundane over time seem simultaneously excessively pessimistic and nostalgic (pessimistic in assuming that magic is a non-renewable resource, and nostalgic in that such settings always try to carry the implication that maybe, just maybe, our own world used to be as magical as some of our legends say it was - which is just silly wish-fulfillment). I prefer a fantasy world that isn't obsessed with looking back on past glories, and in many respects Eberron feels like such a world - it feels as though Khorvairan society is in a progressive phase, harnessing magic in ways that may one day rival and outstrip those that came before. As for the dragons, I pictured their power as diluted rather than diminished - it's the very fact that there are so very many of them which makes them individually so much less powerful than their ancestors; the power of the race as a whole is undiminished.
Charles Phipps 03-19-05, 06:16 PM	In my campaigns, I'm generally assuming that the Dragons just aren't honestly concerned enough with expanding their race to actually become a great power as they might be. With their titanically long lives and obsession with prophecy, the race is cowardly to a certain extent. They don't want to endanger their endless existences by going to war or interacting with other races. Thus, largely, their culture has reached the maximum size that it can reasonably sustain and heavy equivalent of draconic birth control and the like prevents them from going over it. Their culture is also stagnating because they rely on the prophecy for EVERYTHING now and have ceased to actually have any original thinkers amongst them...causing the Old ways to slowly die out and slowly move them towards becoming dumb brutes again.
KP91 03-19-05, 06:38 PM	Prsonally, I believe a single dragon could destroy most of the non-monster races of Khorvaire. 100 first level characters probably dont fair much better than 50 first levels. Neither can peirce the dagons armor except with a critical. The dragon can hit most of them and slay them in one hit with a breath weapon. Figure in hundreds of dragons, Droaam has a slight chance to live if it can unite all monsters with charcater levels. Each of the hags could take a few dragons down at least.
Indigo 03-19-05, 07:15 PM	I'm certainly with the dragons. The dragons destroyed the giants of Xen'drik, who were far more powerful than Khorvaire (discounting Aerenal). There's nothing indicating that they have suffered any loss of power. They've fought with the elves, but everything I've read seems to imply that the elves have simply held them at bay - and that even that is a miraculous thing only possible because they actually do have the direct power of a god (well, godlike entity) at hand. But I think the question is "Why would they?" The Chamber writeup and Draconic Prophecy dragonshard imply that the dragons are far more subtle than this. What do they gain from massacring people?
Purple Yin 03-19-05, 07:40 PM	plus the dragons (presumibly) have epic spells, probably called things like "kill all huminoids in a 100 kilometer spred". or "grr" as the dragons say.
Edymnion 03-19-05, 07:42 PM	But I think the question is "Why would they?" The Chamber writeup and Draconic Prophecy dragonshard imply that the dragons are far more subtle than this. What do they gain from massacring people?Eh, maybe they turned over a rock that said, in dragonmarks, "All those two legged mammal things are bad. Kill them all. For they are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. -God."
Jagermeister 03-19-05, 08:05 PM	Another thing worth noting that I forgot in my first post in this thread is that The Chamber(and possibly other non-Chamber affiliated Dragons) have agents all over Khorvaire. Some of these agents are even advisors to rulers of current nations. When considering the campaign idea in the original post, you might want to also consider that due to the influence the Dragons already have in Khorvaire, the probability that they could achieve whatever goals they have in Khorvaire without an all out war(with the splintered factions of the continent), is very high. Take for instance Breland. *If* one such Chamber member happens to be an advisor to Boranel, and Boranel dies naturally or is assassinated, imagine the civil strife that would no doubt follow in the nation. There are already factions in Breland who disagree on who should be Boranel's successsor. Why would the Dragons even need to fight against Khorvaire when they can manipulate Khorvaire into fighting itself? Perhaps the Last War could even have been a Draconic machination in your campaign. Not necessarily what I would rule it, but there are some more ideas for you.
Gurv 03-19-05, 09:32 PM	I personally believe (and will run) that the Dragons taught Epic level magic to the Giants so they could defend themselves, then destroyed the Giants when they refused to stop using the Epic level stuff.I agree, and add to that. The conflict between the elves and the dragons is partly because the dragons destroyed millions of elves along with the giants; but also largely because they are survivers. The elves who founded Aerenal knew a little Dragon Magic, which makes the whole wiping-out of Xen'drik incomplete. The creation of the undying couldn't have happened unless the elves had some serious mastery of magic, and the Court is certainly now epic in power. The fact that targath (a material deadly to deathless) can be found only on the northern (Aerenal-facing) side Argonnessen, can't be a coincidince and I think it forms some kind of mystical epic barrier to them. The Mourning happen to Cyre because House Cannith (which was based there) had a tendancy to "borrow" magical knowledge from Xen'drik. Although the dragons did a good job destroying most of the awesome stuff, Cannith is very good at piecing things together. It was only a matter of time before they discovered something the dragons considered too powerful for them to have, and wiped them out. They are getting much better at that nowadays, and can confine the damage to precise locations. Why do the dragons fear epic magic in the hands of non-dragons? Because (in my game) it can affect the Prophecy directly. Although it is academic, such magic can achieve results not only by directing acting on events, but by altering the Prophecy itself so that events occur. You need epic magic to move planes, moons, time and space, etc. So I would say that the Dragons would crush Khorvaire if that was their goal, because I think they weild such magic. If need be, they could make the Prophecy say they can.
Edymnion 03-19-05, 11:23 PM	Yup, even 9th level spells have very limited ability to change the world. However, Epic level magic can destroy the ties between planes, crack the world in two, and all around drastically alter the nature of the universe. Which has *GOT* to be bad for Prophecy. The Dragons can do it simply because they understand the prophecy, and know where it is safe to meddle and where it isn't. Those short lived races have no idea what they're doing. They're playing with matches in a room filled with natural gas. As long as they're just building little stick people out of them, thats fine. Once they start trying to strike the match, its time to do something about it.
hiryuu 03-19-05, 11:28 PM	My opinion is very simple: Khorvaire vs. Dragons followed by Orphans vs. Fire Only on FOX.
Fordel 03-20-05, 01:56 AM	Is it even a contest? Has anything ever withstood a unified draconic assault? Does anything even dare tempt the dragons in open, direct warfare? The Dragons are the worlds living Gods, the only thing that has even remotely been able to merely survive a draconic skirmish has been another GodLike force. Even then, it doesnt seem the Dragons went all out. To me it looked like they weren't out to kill the messangers, merely the message. I have no doubt the dragons could at any time, wipe out the entirety of the world. I don't think the dragons are declineing so much as they are becoming complacent with there place in the world.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 03-20-05, 02:27 AM	On the destruction of Cyre, the elimination of Giant civilization in Xen'Drik, and Dragon Magic: Warforged. House Cannith likely stole the secret of Warforged creation from the ruins of Xen'Drik, where they were probably used in the war of Giants vs. Quori. The magic needed to create them en masse was likely taught to the Giants by the Dragons, but the vast numbers needed to fight would have resulted in a new equation in The Prophecy, much as some of that Epic level Dragon Magic could do in an instant, and likely USED Epic magic to create the creation forges of the Warforged. After all, what is Epic magic's greatest strength, if not the removal of limits like XP cost? And how else do you explain how no Xen'Drik Warforged have been found, and yet large ammounts of Warforged components come from Xen'Drik's dank ruins? Back on topic, Dragons all the way, unless Vol makes a few necromantically-inclined Eldritch Machines on the souther coast that kill all dragons to come within a few dozen miles and raise them as dracoliches controlled by her...
RickNeal 03-20-05, 02:27 AM	There are a few questions that could vastly affect the outcome of the war: 1. Who's attacking whom? Are the dragons launching an offensive against Khorvaire, or has Khorvaire united to invade Argonessen? Home ground advantage counts for something, even against dragons - they've gotta sleep sometime, and it's a loooooooong flight from the Eldeen Reaches back home. 2. Who's actually involved in the war? Has Khorvaire united, or is it a piecemeal offense/defense? Are the dragons united, or is it a rogue faction? How about the Aereni? Are they sitting it out, or taking the opportunity to put the undying boot in? What about the Lords of Dust and the Blood of Vol? A Khorvaire conquered by dragons would put a serious cramp in most of their plans, whatever they happen to be, and who wouldn't love the opportunity loot Argonessen of all its draconic wealth and knowledge? 3. What's the objective of the war? Conquest, subjugation, punishment, eradication, or something else? If winning is defined as achieving the objective, then the objective will, of course, play a huge part. If all the dragons want is to reclaim a handful of sites with important parts of the draconic prophecy, that's going to be easier than wiping the mortal races from the surface of Khorvaire. Likewise, sending a fleet to Argonessen with the intention of wiping out one clan of dragons that have been harrassing the shipping lanes is going to be easier than taking and holding whatever theoretical draconic capital exists. 4. What kind of war is it? Big, blatant battles with mustered armies fighting it out toe-to-toe, or a subtle hit-and-run guerilla fight, with disguised dragons and powerful wizards playing tag across the world? 5. Most important of all - what makes the most fun for the players and the GM? Do you want a long, drawn out war campaign? Or are you looking for the Khorvaire Government in Exile on Aerenal to send groups of adventurers to scour the Xen'drik ruins, looking for giant magic that will allow them to reclaim their conquered homeland? How about a crack reconnaisance troop scouting the coast of Argonessen, looking for a spot to land an invasion? Arguments can be made to have either side win, I think. Choose the end goal you want, and set the situation up to produce that end state. If you want Khorvaire to win, then the dragons are a renegade faction determined to reclaim the collection of draconic prophecy writings in the libraries of the great cities. They attack the cities one at a time, forcing them to surrender the books, then they leave. Until the heroes catch up with them... If you want the dragons to win, then Q'Barra decides that New Galifar needs to settle somewhere clean, and chooses the tip of Argonessen. They work to establish a beachhead, but the dragons wipe them out to a man, then begin launching massive reprisal strikes against the southern cities of Khorvaire, razing them to the ground, until some special heroes can make peace with them. Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter. Decide what you want to happen, then build a logical way for it to have happened. Rick
Charles Phipps 03-20-05, 02:49 AM	Also as a note, this isn't Dragonlance. The Khovairians have airships and plenty of magical weapons to wield against dragonkind.
Purple Yin 03-20-05, 07:49 AM	y'know an airship does squat against a long range dispel magic.
Titanic Ego 03-20-05, 11:29 AM	Also as a note, this isn't Dragonlance. The Khovairians have airships and plenty of magical weapons to wield against dragonkind. I believe that in the past the possibility of platoons of magewrights armed with magic missile eternal wands was raised, though older dragons should be able to block that entirely with SR. Save or die spells would be good, (beholders or medusas come in here, although their range is so short that they can be killed with dropped rocks/breath weapons, and SR will still be virtually impenetrable with saves 95% likely) at least theoretically offering the possibility of a lucky kill. Bands of archers will eventually hit on natural 20s, although they can probably all be slaughtered first (not to mention draconic protection from missiles, healing spells, etc.) Invulnerability, air superiority, the magical powers of high level sorcerors (higher than all but a tiny handful of mortals,) and the breath weapons/melee abilities to kill thousands of humans every day. Basically, the only limitation on the dragons destroying the human kingdoms is time: how many days would it take to crush all of their armies? I'd suspect a cabal of 5-10 great wyrms could do so in a couple of weeks. Exterminating every last mortal inhabitant would take longer, but could definitely be achieved: some of the more efficient techniques might include burning the crops and forests, creating infectious undead like wights (with the clerics and the Church of the Silver Flame knocked out,) or intimidating mortal forces into slaughtering the peasantry (serve us, and you will be eaten last!) If they were going to personally track down and slaughter all the mortals without using such techniques it could take well over a year, but what is a year in a draconic lifetime? The only hope of stopping even a small scale invasion (of great wyrms, the ones with the SR/Armor to be invincible against mortal attacks) would be some sort of epic intervention or artifact. Epic PCs might destroy the wyrms in detail if they were working separately. A Xen'drik artifact might nullify SR, allowing massed magic missile wands to kill a dragon. (Perhaps House Cannith was studying such an artifact in Cyre and this invited reprisals. However, the artifact itself eluded the dragons and remains in the Mournlands.) If the invasion group had no support from the rest of Argonessen it might be possible to bring in epic foes on behalf of Khorvaire (with the backing of Argonessen behind the invasion you are basically doomed,) e.g. epic rakshasa sorcerers might help out (though they will exact a terrible price from their allies,) the Church of the Silver Flame might be able to call on some of the planetars and solars of Syrania, etc. Actually, it does occur to me that the powers on Khorvaire do have some potential 'doomsday weapons' of their own. Shrines to the Deathless could be established to bring the power of the Undying Court to Khorvaire, in exchange for worship (which would allow a substantial increase in Undying population.) Messing with the Flame could unleash a rajah right in the area of the draconic invasion force, while breaking the seals against Xoriat could have nasty consequences. Reminds me of the 'Eternal One Bomb' in Star Control 3 :) But basically a dragon invasion is something that cannot be dealt with through military means: it is a task for heroes to deal with, either themselves or by bringing other mega-powers to their aid.
Edymnion 03-20-05, 01:29 PM	The Khovairians have airships and plenty of magical weapons to wield against dragonkind.They have *SOME* airships. As in its quite possible for one person to know the name and general location of every airship in existance there are so few of them. Like the space shuttles. And they're not hard to bring down. Prologue to City of Towers novel (for example) has a Stormship, an airship built for war swoop in, and it only took one sorcerer casting Dispel Magic on the the thing to make it crash into the ground and completely take it out of the fight. It would be rather silly to think, IMO, that a unified attacking force of dragons wouldn't be coming in without somebody capable of casting a mass dispell. Dispell everything, unleash dragonbreath in formation. Remember, these aren't stupid individual dragons like you would find in other settings. They're not only very smart intrinsicly (like normal dragons), but they have a highly organized group society, and they know the value of teamwork. Have one fast flying scout zoom over at top speed and cast some serious level Mass Dispell on the battlefield. First wave flies over in a line, and uses breath weapons to create a wall of death scraping across the landscape. They fly up and out of range of projectiles after their attack, and the second wave comes in with the second wall of burny/shocky/dissolvy death. Repeat until no one is left alive. And thats without the dragons actually casting offensive magic which, if my guess is right, Dragon Magic = Epic Level Magic, means they could be throwing Hellballs like they were going out of style.
Charles Phipps 03-20-05, 02:13 PM	Honestly, that sounds a bit ridiculous. Magic itsems should be a tad more invulnerable than that. The very same thing could be said about "Sure shot arrows" aimed at Dragon wings wiping out legions. I give Khovaire a little more credit. And leveled Dragons should be EXTREMELY rare. Great Wyrm leveled dragons REQUIRE centuries to get the epic magics of old and their power has been fading for some time.
ydirbut 03-20-05, 02:22 PM	Plus, A fight between the average dragon and the Average Lord of Dust is just about even.
Titanic Ego 03-20-05, 02:29 PM	Plus, A fight between the average dragon and the Average Lord of Dust is just about even. Check out the MM. A rakshasa, even an ak'chazzar will get its ass handed to it by an average dragon unless it has class levels. It was the RAJAHS, Cthulhu-type beings, not their rakshasa servants, who were the serious threat. Keith has said that there are some epic rakshasa sorcerers, but not nearly enough to go head-to-head with the dragons: the Lords of Dust survive by using their shapeshifting and magic to hide from draconic attentions. Only an exceptional rakshasa with extraordinary class levels can match the power a dragon acquires just by living a few hundred years.
Stainawarjar 03-20-05, 05:22 PM	Medusas in catapults. That's the way you take out dragons
Purple Yin 03-20-05, 05:33 PM	Medusas in catapults. That's the way you take out dragons lol and leveled Dragons should be EXTREMELY rare. Great Wyrm leveled dragons REQUIRE centuries to get the epic magics of old and their power has been fading for some time The dragons have no natural predators. there is no reason that the majority shouldnt grow to become great wyrms, and gain class levels over their epic lives.
Charles Phipps 03-20-05, 05:46 PM	lol and The dragons have no natural predators. there is no reason that the majority shouldnt grow to become great wyrms, and gain class levels over their epic lives. One would presume it would be much like our world then where they are their own natural predator.
Purple Yin 03-20-05, 06:21 PM	and the majority of humans die of natural causes.
Saurenda 03-20-05, 06:31 PM	Check out the MM. A rakshasa, even an ak'chazzar will get its ass handed to it by an average dragon unless it has class levels. It was the RAJAHS, Cthulhu-type beings, not their rakshasa servants, who were the serious threat. Keith has said that there are some epic rakshasa sorcerers, but not nearly enough to go head-to-head with the dragons: the Lords of Dust survive by using their shapeshifting and magic to hide from draconic attentions. Only an exceptional rakshasa with extraordinary class levels can match the power a dragon acquires just by living a few hundred years. You mean Rivanna who rakshasas believe to be thier one true king, or perhaps a Rakshasa that has drank some Amitra? Rivanna may be multiple headed, but he was never cuthlu like...Hmm Mr. Baker had mentioned to read the D20 complete suppliment on Rakshasas, it did not mention cuthlu like Rakshasas as far as I have read. At any rate I agree that draconic race is declining, and tends towards manipulating the ever increasing amount of humans. In a full out war, it will become painfully obvious that humans will put aside thier differences to survive. And no it will not be like "Regin of Fire" because Khorvaire is filled with smart humans. Smart humans, and other races who have dragon marked houses behind them, along with goth undead elves who just sit around all day growing older. I'd have to side with Khorvaire. I'm not under the impression that Dragons will risk a war when thier numbers are wanning, and it seems they enjoy pulling strings more and cuasing internal conflicts amongst humans and other lesser races. I like what was mentioned about Elves, how they did managed to survive despite the enslavement, destruction of thier original home, and migration only to enter a dragon war of thier own. Which means they have had exposure and knowledge of Dragon magics that no other lesser race currently has except them.
Saurenda 03-20-05, 06:34 PM	The dragons have no natural predators. there is no reason that the majority shouldnt grow to become great wyrms, and gain class levels over their epic lives. Other dragons eat thier own, prophecy or no prophecy. It has always been a dragon eat dragon world.
papytofu 03-20-05, 06:43 PM	No one spoke about the Quori and the Inspired. That's outrageous! lol No but seriously for the same objective than the Lords of Dust, Quori wouldn't want Dragon on Khorvaire, they're slowly moving to conquer Khorvaire. So they could come fight with the dragons ( Dragons sleep isn't it?). They are perceived like savior of Khorvaire and bang they conquer the continent and we got rid of those dragon. I added Sarlona to the struggle because some people spoke about the Aerenni and Xen Drik artifact. And it's not to forget that Inspired already have a small occupation in Khorvaire by the means of ambassies. Even the toughest scales cannot resist the sting of a Quori... Don't mess with them...
Titanic Ego 03-20-05, 07:20 PM	You mean Rivanna who rakshasas believe to be thier one true king, or perhaps a Rakshasa that has drank some Amitra? Rivanna may be multiple headed, but he was never cuthlu like...Hmm Mr. Baker had mentioned to read the D20 complete suppliment on Rakshasas, it did not mention cuthlu like Rakshasas as far as I have read. In Eberron the rakshasa rajahs are not themselves rakshasa, check out the ask Keith thread or the rajahs thread. The rajahs were like demon princes or archdevils, unique beings that didn't even resemble the rakshasa physically, and had 1-5 divine ranks. They are Cthulhoid in being evil godlike beings bound in magical slumber while their cults and servitors stalk the earth. The rakshasa were a servitor race. In the big battles most rakshasa would have been on the power level of the couatl or young dragons, though a few with many class levels would be able to go toe-to-toe with the wyrms. But the great wyrms, the big guns, were held back by the rajahs, creatures that could break through their spell resistance and put up a physical fight comparable to theirs, not to mention salient divine abilities.
Titanic Ego 03-20-05, 07:30 PM	No one spoke about the Quori and the Inspired. That's outrageous! lol No but seriously for the same objective than the Lords of Dust, Quori wouldn't want Dragon on Khorvaire, they're slowly moving to conquer Khorvaire. So they could come fight with the dragons ( Dragons sleep isn't it?). They are perceived like savior of Khorvaire and bang they conquer the continent and we got rid of those dragon. I added Sarlona to the struggle because some people spoke about the Aerenni and Xen Drik artifact. And it's not to forget that Inspired already have a small occupation in Khorvaire by the means of ambassies. Even the toughest scales cannot resist the sting of a Quori... Don't mess with them... Well, the dragons did give the Xen'drik giants the magic to send Dal Quor careening away from Eberron (as well as providing the Gatekeepers with the techniques to seal off Xoriat.) I imagine that the effects would be dramatically more powerful if the dragons were acting directly. Plus, the dragons have access to powerful magics of imprisonment, which the Quori should fear greatly (if a Quori dies, a new one forms in Dal Quor to serve the Dreaming Dark anew, but a 'trap the soul' or 'imprisonment' spell actually reduces the number of extant Quori).
Euangelion 03-20-05, 07:31 PM	In the big battles most rakshasa would have been on the power level of the couatl or young dragons... Just as an aside, one thing to remember about couatls is that the entry in the MM is only the smallest one, the HD progression shows that they can become much larger. Judging the whole race based on the smallest would be like looking at wormling dragons and assuming that was their normal size for all dragons. The couatls of legend and even the survivors are more than likely very large and impressive creatures.
ydirbut 03-20-05, 07:59 PM	Check out the MM. A rakshasa, even an ak'chazzar will get its ass handed to it by an average dragon unless it has class levels. It was the RAJAHS, Cthulhu-type beings, not their rakshasa servants, who were the serious threat. Keith has said that there are some epic rakshasa sorcerers, but not nearly enough to go head-to-head with the dragons: the Lords of Dust survive by using their shapeshifting and magic to hide from draconic attentions. Only an exceptional rakshasa with extraordinary class levels can match the power a dragon acquires just by living a few hundred years. You check your ECS. Average Lord of dust has 5 fighter levels. or CR 13. Average Member of the Chamber ( I Am assuming this is the average) is CR 14.
Edymnion 03-20-05, 09:25 PM	Other dragons eat thier own, prophecy or no prophecy. It has always been a dragon eat dragon world.In a normal setting, maybe. But don't forget, this is Eberron, not a normal setting. Here, the dragons live together in cities, they have libraries and councils. Humans tend to eat each other when they're savage, but we don't really do that much anymore. With civilization comes rules, laws, and changes to the instinctive ways. Dragons are civilized, they have laws. They are perhaps the most advanced culture on the planet in Eberron. Saying they still eat each other is like saying New Yorkers eat each other. They have no natural predators. They have the Draconic Pantheon, which means they have worshippers, which means they have clerics. They have their own artificers and wizards and crafters. They've got no natural enemies, the most advanced healing powers on the planet, and take centuries off to learn how to *read*. There is no more reason why any given Eberron dragon should not mature to adult and then on into old age than any human in a modern day first world country. As for dragons with class levels being rare, yeah, they probably would be. But you don't go sending dragon peasants out to fight your wars. You send the elite troops, the ones with class levels. Again, Dragons in Eberron are NOT monsters to fight. They are an advanced civilization that sheperds the future of the world. They are plot devices. The chances of your character ever even SEEING a dragon are next to nil, much less actually fighting one. I mean, you would never see one that wasn't Adult catagory any more than you would expect to see 13 year olds in a human army or exploration party. The puny humans wouldn't stand a chance.
ydirbut 03-20-05, 09:56 PM	In a normal setting, maybe. But don't forget, this is Eberron, not a normal setting. Here, the dragons live together in cities, they have libraries and councils. Humans tend to eat each other when they're savage, but we don't really do that much anymore. With civilization comes rules, laws, and changes to the instinctive ways. Dragons are civilized, they have laws. They are perhaps the most advanced culture on the planet in Eberron. Saying they still eat each other is like saying New Yorkers eat each other. They have no natural predators. They have the Draconic Pantheon, which means they have worshippers, which means they have clerics. They have their own artificers and wizards and crafters. They've got no natural enemies, the most advanced healing powers on the planet, and take centuries off to learn how to *read*. There is no more reason why any given Eberron dragon should not mature to adult and then on into old age than any human in a modern day first world country. As for dragons with class levels being rare, yeah, they probably would be. But you don't go sending dragon peasants out to fight your wars. You send the elite troops, the ones with class levels. Again, Dragons in Eberron are NOT monsters to fight. They are an advanced civilization that sheperds the future of the world. They are plot devices. The chances of your character ever even SEEING a dragon are next to nil, much less actually fighting one. I mean, you would never see one that wasn't Adult catagory any more than you would expect to see 13 year olds in a human army or exploration party. The puny humans wouldn't stand a chance. Yeah, because in this day and age, Humans never kill each other, right? Besides It's the Dragons Versus Khorvare, not Dragons Versus Humans.
Edymnion 03-20-05, 10:32 PM	Yeah, because in this day and age, Humans never kill each other, right?Sure they do, but the occassional muder is not exactly a threat to the race. If you're using dragons killing each other as a reason why they can't get it together enough to be a threat to Khovair, its essentially the same as saying nobody in the real world can ever go to war because they're too busy knifing their neighbors. Dragon on dragon crime would and should exist. But its not like its going to be so bad thats all they have time to worry with. It would be the exception, not the rule.
Sarlax 03-20-05, 10:36 PM	In a normal setting, maybe. But don't forget, this is Eberron, not a normal setting. Here, the dragons live together in cities, they have libraries and councils. How is this known?
ydirbut 03-20-05, 10:51 PM	Sure they do, but the occassional muder is not exactly a threat to the race. If you're using dragons killing each other as a reason why they can't get it together enough to be a threat to Khovair, its essentially the same as saying nobody in the real world can ever go to war because they're too busy knifing their neighbors. Dragon on dragon crime would and should exist. But its not like its going to be so bad thats all they have time to worry with. It would be the exception, not the rule. How do they Support themselves then? Dragons are pretty friggin big'
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 03-20-05, 11:57 PM	Well, the dragons did give the Xen'drik giants the magic to send Dal Quor careening away from Eberron (as well as providing the Gatekeepers with the techniques to seal off Xoriat.) I imagine that the effects would be dramatically more powerful if the dragons were acting directly. Plus, the dragons have access to powerful magics of imprisonment, which the Quori should fear greatly (if a Quori dies, a new one forms in Dal Quor to serve the Dreaming Dark anew, but a 'trap the soul' or 'imprisonment' spell actually reduces the number of extant Quori). A deck of many things with nothing but Imprisonment cards, perhaps? *cough* But seriously, dragons aren't exactly running short on food, either. The ECS specifically mentions that Argonessen is rife with herds of large dinosaurs as well. A brachiosaur is probably the scale equivalent to a dragon what a sheep is to a human. A few hundred brachiosaurs would be enough to feed a "city block"'s worth of dragons for some time.
magicmarker13 03-21-05, 04:24 AM	i'm going with dragons on this one... a highly advanced society, spending years and years developing powerful epic magics. i'm also assuming that some of these dragons have class levels (read the 30th anniversary dragon mag), draconic PrC's, oh yeah and... MAGIC ITEMS... i think it's odd that the CR's of the dragons in the MM don't account for a dragon actually using those rings of protection in its loot horde. these dragons have spent millions of years not losing battles and improving on a society, and no dragon thought to build draconic sized armor or make some wands in that time, i find that hard to believe. just imagine some mature gold dragon with some class levels with mithral barding and all sorts of magical weaponry, now imagine a continent full of them. then we have to consider the dragons two other secret weapons... their frikkin through-the-roof intelligence, allowing intricate and dangerous tactics... and a few seren barbarians to act as meatshields... oops... and a third thing... the whole race can FLY in a natural non dispelling kinda way... i'm going dragons on this...
Brastan 03-21-05, 07:19 AM	Its hard not to believe that a dragon civilization could not utterly annihilate something as pathetic as a humanoid based one. Most dragons are natural masters of magic, commanding powers that humanoid practitioners struggle to comprehend, ( as dragons know all Arcane and Divine spells of levels they are able to cast ) However as overwhelming as the draconic force is I have on question that my settle who will win in the long run. What side are the PCs fighting for? I'd place my over-deity credits on them to win, maybe one or two character deaths. Dispel is nasty because its a suppressant. The items will still function after a few short rounds but in that handful of seconds the displer can go to town. If a war were happening right now? Dragons on top, survivors seeking shelter in places dragons have difficulty going. Enter PCs, the last best hope to hind out what provoked the dragons and get them to lay off.
Titanic Ego 03-21-05, 08:57 AM	Its hard not to believe that a dragon civilization could not utterly annihilate something as pathetic as a humanoid based one. Most dragons are natural masters of magic, commanding powers that humanoid practitioners struggle to comprehend, ( as dragons know all Arcane and Divine spells of levels they are able to cast ) What's the source for this? I thought that they only had the normal number of spells known for a sorcerer of their effective level?
Gurv 03-21-05, 09:34 AM	What's the source for this? I thought that they only had the normal number of spells known for a sorcerer of their effective level?It isn't entirely true. Some dragons can cast cleric spells, but not all dragons can do this; it varies by dragon type. Spells: A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its variety description, gaining bonus spells for a high Charisma score. Some dragons can also cast spells from the cleric list or cleric domain lists as arcane spells.
Purple Yin 03-21-05, 10:09 AM	How do they Support themselves then? Dragons are pretty friggin big' create food and water? elephant heards? rings or sustinance?
DarkWarriorKarg 03-21-05, 01:37 PM	Dragons vs Khorvaire? Break out Dark Sun once the dragons are finished...
Edymnion 03-21-05, 02:46 PM	How is this known?Page 220 of the ECS: "...and those who have set out to see the great cities of the dragons have never returned to share their tales." And we have the Council, and that they spend centuries learning to read dragonmarks. They have cities, and they have scholars, hence they must have libraries of some kind. If they have cities, they must have a social structure that allows a great many powerful creatures live side by side without killing each other, which means civilization. This civilization is tens of thousands of years old (the giants were what, 45,000 years ago?), compared to a measly 5,000-10,000 years for human civilization in the real world. They also live for thousands of years themselves, are incredibly intelligent, and are the acting shepards for the future of Eberron. All of that means they must have a very well ordered social structure that would ensure the survival and teaching of the vast majority of dragon young. We have the Draconic Pantheon, so there must be a fair number of religious dragons out there, which means adepts and clerics. And if they're casting Epic level magic, then they must have Epic level ranks in Spellcraft (even epic level sorcerers have to do this), which means epic levels in Wizard or whatever class you have. Which means institutions for the learning of arcane arts. Which all around means that they are NOT somebody you want to mess with.
Sarlax 03-21-05, 03:35 PM	Page 220 of the ECS: "...and those who have set out to see the great cities of the dragons have never returned to share their tales." If no one's returned, how do we know the cities exist? The existence of draconic cities may only be an assumption by Khorvaire's scholars, who assume that dragons have a social structure which is similar to that of human beings. All of that means they must have a very well ordered social structure that would ensure the survival and teaching of the vast majority of dragon young. Dragons may have other mechanisms for teaching. Given their incredible life spans, it's entirely possible that they are educated from parent-to-child. Or perhaps they have spells which allows knowledge to be transferred between individuals (certainly possible for a million year old race). The assertion that dragons necessarily have a society which features great cities and governments in entirely an assumption. It's not without some basis, but there's hardly an overwhelming amount of evidence for it Magic (and psionics) allow for the possibility of something that can't happen on Earth: the existence of powerful, non-industrial, and non-centralized societies. When every member of the race is a superb flying predator and sorcerer, there's no need for buildings, roads, bridges, etc. Everything that makes a city is essentially unnecessary. There's almost no reason for dragon cities to exist. If they want to communicate, they can use magic or fly; they can live with the delay. They don't need to gather together for protection. The biggest reason is that, being predators, dragons have no need for agriculture. Without farmland to protect (and farmers to coerce), cities have almost no utility. We have the Draconic Pantheon, so there must be a fair number of religious dragons out there, which means adepts and clerics. This is another leap. The existence of religion doesn't bear on the proportion of the population which believes nor the keepers of the faith. The vast majority of the population might take the gods as simply mythology or metaphor. Or they may be fervent believers, but they have no need for clerics and adepts - many dragon species can cast cleric spells anyway. Combined with their incredible battle prowess, there's no need for holy warriors (which is what the cleric is). If dragons are significantly religious, experts are more than enough to "keep the faith." And if they're casting Epic level magic, then they must have Epic level ranks in Spellcraft (even epic level sorcerers have to do this), which means epic levels in Wizard or whatever class you have. Which means institutions for the learning of arcane arts. That's a big "if." We have no idea whether dragons use epic magic at all, or, if they do, whether it follows the Epic Level Handbook system. On top of that, even if dragons do use Epic Magic, there's nothing that requires them to go to magic school to learn how to do it. The rules don't require it. In fact, since they're all sorcerers, magical academies are almsot counterintuitive to dragons. Which all around means that they are NOT somebody you want to mess with. I do agree here. Even a single adult dragon is a powerful threat - strong intelligence, magical prowess, and incredible strength. A dozen working together could to terrible damage to a humanoid force, especially considering the low levels of humanoids in Eberron.
Jagermeister 03-21-05, 04:20 PM	Which all around means that they are NOT somebody you want to mess with. Right. In my opinion(as I stated in my previous two posts in this thread), Khorvaire is toast. The Giant's civilization was far more advanced than anything ever seen in Khorvaire, and when they fought the Dragons, their civilization was utterly destroyed. Logically it follows that Khorvaire would not stand a chance. But really, if you want to run this "continent vs. continent" war, just go for it and see what the result ends up being in your game. My opinion is that if you run this situation and the Dragons somehow lose, you as a DM are pulling the punches(which is fine, if it suits your story and campaign).
Edymnion 03-21-05, 04:34 PM	That's a big "if." We have no idea whether dragons use epic magic at allWell, they did teach the Giants some kind of magic that not only severed a planar link, but sent the entire plane ricocheting beyond reach, who's backlash destroyed the entire center of the continent. I don't know any non-epic magic that could even come close to that sort of thing. As for what rules it follows, Occam's Razor. The simplest answer is most often the correct one. If we have to choose between them using Epic level magic as already written, or assuming they invented a whole new system of casting magic, I'm going to assume they use the rules as written, and not their own Dragon's Handbook.
magicmarker13 03-21-05, 10:48 PM	actually, dragons use epic magic, because if you ask keith baker (you know, that one dude) he'll tell you epic magic in eberron IS DRAGON MAGIC. so i think, seeing as it's all named after them and such, they might use it on occasion...
Sarlax 03-21-05, 11:23 PM	Well, they did teach the Giants some kind of magic that not only severed a planar link, but sent the entire plane ricocheting beyond reach, who's backlash destroyed the entire center of the continent. I don't know any non-epic magic that could even come close to that sort of thing. Well, if you refer to your thread about Lei and the warforged scouts, it is noted there that Keith Baker doesn't necessarily shy away from storylines that don't involve the strict use of D&D rules. I don't quite like it either, but it's something that one ought to keep in mind when having these discussions. There are eldritch machines, after all; these things might as well just be called Fiat Engines. As for what rules it follows, Occam's Razor. The simplest answer is most often the correct one. If we have to choose between them using Epic level magic as already written, or assuming they invented a whole new system of casting magic, I'm going to assume they use the rules as written, and not their own Dragon's Handbook. As I noted, even if they do use the ELH epic magic system, there's no need to assume that their mastery of it requires formal education or anything resembling it. Normal sorcery comes naturally to them, why not epic sorcery? Or it could be talk only from mother to daughter. Or perhaps the first dragons to use epic magic decided that its power ought to be limited to a fixed number of dragons, so they crafted a powerful epic spell: whenever one of the original 13 epic dragon-casters died, his knowledge was preserved and transferred into the mind of a hatchling dragon elsewhere in the world. In this way, the knowledge was forever preserved but not dangerously proliferated. Unfortunately, upon the death of the last of the originals, the knowledge vanished but its new bearer could not be located. Anyway, there's all kinds of ways for dragons to pull off powerful effects. Even if they have Epic Magic 3.5, they don't need cities with academies to learn it.
Gurv 03-22-05, 12:14 AM	I'm going with a middle road between Sarlax and Edymnion. I agree with Edy that dragons have a strong civilization, that they do work together and have centers of learning/communication. Cooperation seems likely between the dragons, as they all have somewhat relaed goals in understanding more of the Prophecy, even if they decide to do different things once they succeed. But I agree with Sarlax that the civilization bears no resemblance to our own. No roads for creatures who can fly. No towers and houses. Everyone can hunt for themselves. Everyone is a sorcerer. Where the greatest wizards amongst the humans have achieved great things like airships and lightning rails, the use of magic amongst the dragons has likely reached a level where they can accomplish any mundane task without effort. I'm on the side saying that a single great wyrm would be a terrible foe for Khorvaire, even if it attacked directly. With the dragons attacking all together, I doubt there is a thing that humans and their ilk could do to even slow them down. Again, the example of the greater civilization of the giants being crushed by the dragons, with no real reason to think the dragons had a hard time of it, comes to mind.
Titanic Ego 03-22-05, 12:40 AM	I I'm on the side saying that a single great wyrm would be a terrible foe for Khorvaire, even if it attacked directly. With the dragons attacking all together, I doubt there is a thing that humans and their ilk could do to even slow them down. Again, the example of the greater civilization of the giants being crushed by the dragons, with no real reason to think the dragons had a hard time of it, comes to mind. I think a good analogy would be the first Gulf War. Cruise missiles and air superiority (plus electronically guided tank weapons) could inflict huge damage without being vulnerable to counterattack by the massive Iraqi army. Ultimately a handful of American casualties to over a hundred thousand Iraqis. Dragons are the fighter-bombers of Eberron, except that the Great Wyrms are as resistant to attack as Cheyenne Mountain. If 99.9999% of the locals can't even scratch the wyrm, there is nothing to stop it from pulling a 'Desert Storm.' If the humans had some attack that could reliably inflict small amounts of damage at very long ranges, then they could take down dragons through weight of numbers, but draconic armor, SR, and flight mean that the anti-dragon power of a single Khorvaire soldier/magewright/wizard is generally 0. Zero times 500,000 soldiers is still zero.
Korhal_IV 03-22-05, 12:52 AM	I'm looking at Melf's Acid Arrow here. No SR, 2nd level spell. You get a bunch of 1st level artificers cranking out scrolls and wands, then a bunch of disposable magewrights. Lure the dragon into close confines ("We gather to bow before our great overlord with our, er, sticks of supplication in hand...") then bombard the scaly one to pieces. :D
Cellic 03-22-05, 01:16 AM	It wouldn't happen. The only way the dragons would gather into a force would if the Prophecy told them to. If it did happen, if everyone on Khorvaire fought every dragon, the dragons would lose like what, 50? Khorvaire is DEAD.
ratslinky 03-22-05, 03:45 AM	sod sorry mistake here
ratslinky 03-22-05, 03:48 AM	hi
ratslinky 03-22-05, 03:54 AM	Medusas in catapults. That's the way you take out dragons Are you kidding like meduases would ever do that kind of thing and on top of that there areant enough meduases to do that on much of a scale pl us the dragons get a will save to resist and they have SR and an impresive will save so thats that idea down the drain. And another thing the dragons don't have to fight the armys of Khovaire. They can just destroy the forests, farms and buildings without any houses to sleep in and no materials to build any it would be like shooting rats in a barrel. Or they could just keep down all the food supplies and let the lesser-racese starve.
Stainawarjar 03-22-05, 08:45 AM	If you launched every medusa in Khorvaire you should be able to take a young dragon or two... and you get rid of the medusas! Of couse the medusas themselves would dislike this, but they have no say on the matter. It seems some people here believe there are millions of dragons out there, all of them living to become great wyrms and dying ONLY of old age... The dragons are great predators, and any society they create would be a predatorial one, no matter how sophisticated they become. It's got to be at least some dragon eat dragon out there.
Titanic Ego 03-22-05, 09:16 AM	If you launched every medusa in Khorvaire you should be able to take a young dragon or two... and you get rid of the medusas! Of couse the medusas themselves would dislike this, but they have no say on the matter. The medusa/beholder tactic was stated as one of the only techniques that could ever work: it always had the attached proviso that it would fail at least 99% of the time because of SR, saves, and range. But ordinary troops are going to fail 100% of the time. Even ordinary wizards generally, because their caster levels are so low (hence magical creatures with higher caster levels.) However, I had not accounted for the existence of the just-mentioned acid arrow spell: for a first level caster that has a range of 440 feet, with no SR/saving throw. While producing enough wands to be useful and getting them to the site of the dragon would be difficult, they do make it *possible* for the kingdoms of Khorvaire to kill a single dragon. Of course this would require hundreds of magic-using troops and items for a single attempt, and the dragon would have to be obliging enough to come into range (either because the unit is defending a fixed position or through trickery.) So even the wealthiest kingdoms will only be able to manage a handful of these units. Suppose that a single great wyrm was attempting to exterminate all of the mortals in Khorvaire, and that the Quori/demons/couatl were staying of the way. It would have a number of options to deal with the acid arrow units: 1. Use nondetection, polymorph self, and the like to sneak right into enemy camps/barracks while the mortals sleep, then take dragon form to slaughter most of them and fly off. Rinse and repeat until the number of enemy acid arrow units has been thinned to your liking. 2. Set fire to crops, cities, and forests away from the massed acid arrow units and starve them out. 3. Use your enormous sorcery to throw insta-kill fireballs or ice-storms to a range of 760 feet and break up the unit from a distance (and at the very least wipe out a large proportion of its members.) If they lose formation, come in with breath weapons to destroy them in detail. If they stand firm come back tomorrow and kill some more. 4. Find some mundane army units and tell them that you will refrain from killing them, at least for the period of the conquest, if they fight against the acid arrow units. Remember that you have superhuman charisma not to mention ridiculous bluff, diplomacy, and intimidation skills. 5. Summon elementals and the like and send them in to soften up the opposition. 6. Cast Globe of Invulnerability and get complete immunity to spells of 4th level and below (including acid arrow and everything else that virtually all the wizards of Khorvaire can cast.) It could be taken down by a dispel magic, but that check has a DC of 30. A 10th level caster rolling a natural 20 on a dispel check will hit 30, and an 11th+ level caster with greater dispel magic might have a slightly greater chance. But such casters are ridiculously rare, and can easily be destroyed from outside their range using the techniques above. Further, if the dragon has a couple of extra caster levels (from class levels perhaps) it will be completely impossible for Eberron's casters to break it. In theory such a caster might be able to sneak onto the scene of the battle and get extremely lucky with a targeted dispel (the globe cannot be taken out with an area dispel.) But even this could be dealt with by having additional defensive spells working behind the globe such as: 7. Resist energy: a dragon caster will absorb 30 points of acid damage/attack, and so will be entirely immune to acid arrows. So a second level 10+ caster would have to follow up the first and again get incredibly lucky to knock out the dragon's defenses. 8. Anti-magic field. While this has the irritating effect of suppressing the dragon's spells and breath weapon, it can be used to plunge right into the center of the enemy wizard unit and start ripping away with physical attacks. There is also no way for the Khorvaire forces to break it. Once the magewrights/wizards have been eliminated as an organized unit the dragon ends the field, casts globe of invulnerability 9. Create undead. Let loose a rapidly proliferating army of wights into the area of the enemy army and let them convert the civilian population into a deadly horde to slaughter the acid arrow units and their comrades, or at least drain their magic. Because wights are corporeal and cannot fly or hide in solid objects, the dragon can breathe on them from the air afterwards. 10. Be a black dragon and immune to acid. 11. Get a magic item of acid resistance or two. 12. Call in a few favors from otherwise uninterested draconic buddies to help you crush this pocket of magic-using resistance so you can get back to the massive slaughter. 13. Poison their water/infect them with disease. 14. Sneak into the area with greater invisibility and dominate their officers to undertake foolish tactics that divide the mages into groups small enough to be destroyed in detail. 15. Begin your assaults with strikes against the academies of magic, House Cannith, and notable magical powers before anyone knows about the dragon threat. With mind blank and greater invisibility it would be very difficult to figure out what was going on before the potential major producers of acid arrow wands were eliminated. Even better, try to place the blame on one faction in Khorvaire to help cultivate new warfare and further weaken the enemy. 16. Use an INT of 30+ (compared to the human average of 10-11) to think of all sorts of techniques I have not been able to hit upon in a few minutes of thought.
Stainawarjar 03-22-05, 09:38 AM	They can certainly devise alliances and other institutions to limit dragon-on-dragon violence, unless you posit some overwhelming antisocial instinct. Limited? Yes Eliminated? Hell, no! Maybe the good dragons don't eat their own young (most of the time...), and they don't eat somebody they're allied to, or somebody with strong allies... but all others should be fair game. Intelligence does not make one "humane".
Stainawarjar 03-22-05, 09:45 AM	I'm looking at Melf's Acid Arrow here. No SR, 2nd level spell. You get a bunch of 1st level artificers cranking out scrolls and wands, then a bunch of disposable magewrights. Lure the dragon into close confines ("We gather to bow before our great overlord with our, er, sticks of supplication in hand...") then bombard the scaly one to pieces. :D Or... put them in catapults! Give them cheap copper rings and tell them they are rings of feather fall There is no war that cannot be won by living artillery
Titanic Ego 03-22-05, 10:36 AM	Limited? Yes Eliminated? Hell, no! Maybe the good dragons don't eat their own young (most of the time...), and they don't eat somebody they're allied to, or somebody with strong allies... but all others should be fair game. Intelligence does not make one "humane". But what do the dragons gain from eating each other? A psychopath who kills for the sheer pleasure will be rationally seen as a threat by other dragons and eliminated. Killing for treasure hoards? A potential victim would make agreements with strong patrons to provide protection in exchange for payment, or simply pay a Danegeld to the potential thief. Likely every dragon except the very mightiest would participate in some sort of mutual protection association, with contractual provisions to avenge murdered members, and settle disputes between pacts by arbitration and payment of treasure. Magic items? The dragons can craft or trade for these, so they fall under the same rubric as other wealth generally. Crimes of passion over mates? Perhaps, but is that a leading cause of death among humans? Ideological, doctrinal wars over the prophecy? That is certainly possible but there is not much evidence for it. And what kind of disagreements would be worth risking their enormous lifespans for? They have so much to lose from internecine conflict (the greatest danger to them) that an organized legal system, whether polycentric (appealing to respected wyrms for mediation) or centralized would have to be overwhelmingly attractive compared to a kill-or-be-killed chaotic evil society.
Edymnion 03-22-05, 11:05 AM	Normal sorcery comes naturally to them, why not epic sorcery?Well, last time I checked (which I may or may not be rememering correctly, I rarely use Epic rules, as I find them rather silly), casting epic level spells worked the same way reguardless of if its Sorcerer or Wizard. You research the spell, you make Spellcraft checks, and thats how you cast the spell. Possible variant for Spellcraft to allow Sorcerers to use their Charisma score on it instead of Intellegince. But either way, all epic arcane magic (and possibly divine, I never looked into that) is done with Spellcraft checks (which I think is actually a better system for casting spells in D&D).
Sarlax 03-23-05, 02:42 AM	Well, last time I checked (which I may or may not be rememering correctly, I rarely use Epic rules, as I find them rather silly), casting epic level spells worked the same way reguardless of if its Sorcerer or Wizard. You research the spell, you make Spellcraft checks, and thats how you cast the spell. Possible variant for Spellcraft to allow Sorcerers to use their Charisma score on it instead of Intellegince. That's all correct, but this research is only something expressed in game terms. There's nothing requiring formal education or contact with other spellcasters; it's simply research time, XP, and cash - like making a magic item. When it comes to any spellcaster, especially a sorcerer, all one has to do to cast epic spells is have the Spellcraft ranks, collect the resources, and get to work. When I suggested that it comes "naturally" I only meant that they could do it without a formal system in place, not that it came to them automatically.
ratslinky 03-23-05, 04:58 AM	Or... put them in catapults! Give them cheap copper rings and tell them they are rings of feather fall There is no war that cannot be won by living artillery NO WAY at least a few of the magerights/wizards/sorcerers will notice that the rings they are wearing a fake and then tell their friends who will tell their friends ect. And if they don't they will when their friends start dropping out of the sky. As for the Quori/Lords of Dust/X'endrik artifacts/Undying Court I will go into each seperatly. Quori were beaten before by DRAGON MAGIC and probably would rather stay out of the war than face dragons. The lords of dust aren't powerful enough to beat a GREAT WYRM in combat even with a few allies. X'endrik artifacts would be destroyed by the dragons to stop anyone using them. And even the undying court couldn't withstand a full dragon assault.
Stainawarjar 03-23-05, 08:47 AM	The lords of dust aren't powerful enough to beat a GREAT WYRM in combat even with a few allies. X'endrik artifacts would be destroyed by the dragons to stop anyone using them. And even the undying court couldn't withstand a full dragon assault. I'll begin with the last one then: The undying court: Just how do you know this? If the dragons could end the war with the elves just by assaulting the 'court, why wouldn't they have done it a long, long time ago? Xen'drik artefacts: Sure, because the dragons know of every single powerful artefact in the world, where it is, and how to destroy it. They're omnipotent, right? The Lords of Dust: If the lords can't do it, free a few Rajahs. Sure, you lose the war either way then, but everything becomes more interesting... Seems like some of you people believe all dragons are great wyrm+, and that there are hundreds of these monstrosities... I refuse to believe that there is more then a handful, at most, great wyrms of every color. (and you can't really fit that many great wyrms in your hand)
Titanic Ego 03-23-05, 09:41 AM	I'll begin with the last one then: The undying court: Just how do you know this? If the dragons could end the war with the elves just by assaulting the 'court, why wouldn't they have done it a long, long time ago? Xen'drik artefacts: Sure, because the dragons know of every single powerful artefact in the world, where it is, and how to destroy it. They're omnipotent, right? The Lords of Dust: If the lords can't do it, free a few Rajahs. Sure, you lose the war either way then, but everything becomes more interesting... Seems like some of you people believe all dragons are great wyrm+, and that there are hundreds of these monstrosities... I refuse to believe that there is more then a handful, at most, great wyrms of every color. (and you can't really fit that many great wyrms in your hand) People expect a large number of great wyrms because (per the Draconomicon) it takes 1200 years to reach that age and depending on species one can live for at least 1300-2500 additional years. So unless there are high rates of mortality you will see a lot of great wyrms (basically, great wyrms are truly mature dragons entering the phase they will spend most of their natural lives in.) In normal settings dragons eat each other, are killed by human archmages, and generally harassed from the time they are in the egg. Thus very few survive to reach maximum power. This is especially so because the chromatics and metallics are constantly murdering each other, and the dragons are generally unable to unite against a common foe. In Eberron those problems are weakened or eliminated (virtually no humans capable of threatening the dragons, a safe home in Argonessen for dragons to mature in, a group that can organize joint efforts against common foes like the elves, flexible alignment so that the different breeds are not locked in genocidal struggle.) The logic of the situation dictates that the dragons should proliferate like rabbits in Australia (where their normal checks did not exist), with a very high proportion surviving to reach their full development. Only draconic contraception and voluntary population control (or infertility caused by distance from Siberys) prevent the dragon population from saturating the whole planet.
Purple Yin 03-23-05, 02:19 PM	i'll give you that the lords of dust are powerful, and so are the inspired (the few actually involved in the fight described here) but remember in the history of eberron the quori could fully manifest on the material plane (so be an even greater threat) and the giants, using a fraction of the dragons knowledge, obliterated the very connection to their plane. the dragons in turn obliterated the giants, even though the giants had the power the dragons taught them. so if the giants were greater than khovare now... what chance does khovare have? (as for the xen'drik artifacts, its concevible the dragons have epic spells specifically for locating artifacts)
ydirbut 03-23-05, 04:44 PM	The Daelkyr can also Manifest on the P.M., and Khorvare Fought them off.
ratslinky 03-23-05, 05:06 PM	The Daelkyr can also Manifest on the P.M., and Khorvare Fought them off. Yes that is true but remember that was the time of the Dkaani empire, they were a lot more organized and had plenty of powerful artifacts to command. And remember the Daelkyr beat up the Dkaani so much that the empire collapsed. When they fought the orcs the gate keepers came to stop them. And the dwarfs were beaten.