Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cosmikube 12-15-04, 03:53 PM	Hello! I'm a newcomer to Eberron and though i've posted once or twice in these boards i've been mainly lurking. The thing is, the more i read of eberron, the more i like it! I already DMed my players through Forgotten Forge and they loved it! Plus, Eberron introduces two of the best villains i've ever seen (the honour of first still belonging to Rajaat from Dark Sun, IMHO): the Lords of Dust and the Daelkyr! (i'm excluding the Dreaming Dark because i don't quite understad their purpose yet). the problem i have is with the concept of Khyber! At first i though that Khyber was like the Underdark... And yet, both the daelkyr and the demon lords the Lords of Dust serve are somehow trapped in Khyber... My question is, what does this mean? How are they trapped? Is Khyber somewhere physical or is it more like a different plane of existence? Can Joe the crazy barbarian enter Khyber at will while the daelkyr cannot leave? Can the daelkyr and the demons send minions to eberron while they themselves cannot go there? There are interactions hinted at between the demons and the surface world hinted at in the demon wastes (the plague bearers i think), but what about other kind of interactions? And how about interactions between the demons and the daelkyr, since they share a common "world"? Just trying to spark some thoughts!
ieattrollsforbreakfast 12-15-04, 04:10 PM	Your initial thoughts were correct, Khyber is the name of Eberron's underdark. The reason the Daelkyr and the Rajahs are trapped below the surface in Khyber is not because it is some other plane of existance, but because they have been bound/trapped by magic. The Gatekeepers created magic seals in the entrances to Khyber that prevent the daelkyr leaving. If these seals were broken, the daelkyr could make their way to the surface. The couatls bound the rajahs in Khyber using similar magic. We have seen that these binds can fail in more recent history after a demon escaped but was re-bound when Tira and a couatl stepped in. Note that not all demons within Khyber are bound there, only those fiends bound during the Age of Demons. The reason Joe the Barbarian can enter is because the seals of the Gatekeepers only prevent the daelkyr from leaving, not any other creature (their minions and creations can leave). I can imagine interactions between the daelkyr and demons are few and far between. They will know of each other's presense, but I doubt they would approach each other personally (they have minions for that kind of thing). The minions are likely to fight, each fighting for power and territory deep underground.
polt 12-15-04, 04:42 PM	Hehe, i kinda like the idea of a Rajah and a Daelkyr setting in a dungeon playing chess :D
Lujayne34 12-15-04, 05:26 PM	Are the daelkyr demons themselves? Or just another outsider type? If they are demons can they possess someone as per the instructions in the ECSB?
polt 12-15-04, 05:28 PM	They aren't demons, they are outsiders. And i don't think they can possess people.
Zedium 12-15-04, 05:32 PM	Yep, like stated above, Khyber is the underdark of eberron, with a few twists. Biggest one might be the lack of evil elf/gnome/dwarf variants, but also other things like the kind of creatures (loads of abberations). For the rest you can use any normal underdark encounter you would normally have, just in keep mind that Khyber is fairly untravelled, and only the brave and/or crazy enter it, and usually that is just out of pure greed for Khyber shards. And I think the chance of players running across a Rajah is fairly small anyway, they wouldn't survive the encounter. I immagine these creatures on the level of normal FR gods (in eberronian terms, that means they can SERIOUSLY wreck up anything). They might run across signs of a powerful presence though, like broken chains, far away rumbling. Immagine it like the scene with the balrog in Lord of the Rings, the creature is way scarier and darker as long as it doesn't openly appear in the book or on the big sceen. If you want to run an encounter with a high power creature, I would suggest sticking to Daelkyr, and those guys are scary enough already.
cosmikube 12-15-04, 05:45 PM	So the Demons have been bound by the sheer sacrifice of the Couatls... Sort of like a Divine Seal ("Thou Shal Not Pass!")? OK, I can see that, it makes sense... Their minions the rakshasa Lords of Dust can freely move between Khyber and Eberron thus better doing their masters' will... Now the Daelkyrs' binding to Khyber seems much more fragile if only because it was achieved by mortals and requires the presence of actual seals (am I right?) in the entrances to Khyber... Hmmm, what keeps their minions from destroying these seals (other than that their probably protected by Gatekeepers)? Would that be a goal for a Cult of the Dragon Below? On a relatd note, Do the Cults of the Dragon Below always worship the Daelkyr? Could they serve a Demon? Or is it more likely that they are serving the Evil in Khyber as a whole (thus being less discriminatory)? Thanks for the great help, BTW!!
cosmikube 12-15-04, 05:53 PM	Are the daelkyr demons themselves? Or just another outsider type? If they are demons can they possess someone as per the instructions in the ECSB? Daelkyr are not Demons... Think of the Demons as the typical Evil entity, so evil it's overwhelming... Now think of the daelkyr and replace "evil" with "mad"! Daelkyr cannot possess you, though they can make you mad enough to think they are (possessing you)... :)
Gurv 12-15-04, 06:17 PM	Now the Daelkyrs' binding to Khyber seems much more fragile if only because it was achieved by mortals and requires the presence of actual seals (am I right?) in the entrances to Khyber... Hmmm, what keeps their minions from destroying these seals (other than that their probably protected by Gatekeepers)? Would that be a goal for a Cult of the Dragon Below? It might be more fragile, but the Gatekeepers of old were no minor spellcasters like you see on Eberron nowadays. Their magick literally forced the plane of Xoriat away from Eberron, and it hasn't been back since. Then they set up seals to lock away the handful of daelkyr remaining in Khyber. Khyber itself has binding properties: it is no coincidence that the Gatekeepers used it; in all likelihood, they took advantage of the existing divine sealing power of the couatl and caught the daelykr with it. The fact that those seals are failing only now is impressive; they're tens of thousands of years old. On a relatd note, Do the Cults of the Dragon Below always worship the Daelkyr? Could they serve a Demon? Or is it more likely that they are serving the Evil in Khyber as a whole (thus being less discriminatory)? Cult of the Dragon Below is a catch-all term for nutjobs who get their power from the various evils trapped in Khyber (the Dragon Below). So they may worship daelkyr, demons, whatever. The cults generally have little or nothing in common with one another. Don't let the fact that they are reffered to collectively as the Cults of the Dragon Below let you think that they are one big happy family. Also, 'demon' generally refers to rakshasas, and their Lords of Dust. They are the demons created by Khyber at the beginning of time.
Dex The King 12-15-04, 06:45 PM	One of the major goals of some Dragon Below cultists is to destroy those seals. They are one of a few things that prevent the daelkyr from escaping, and from Xoriat being coterminous any time soon (currently its not due for another 1747 years). Other ideas suggested for releasing the grand powers below were suggested by one of the WizOs and myself: a massive earthquake device or an extremely powerful magical ritual around a volcano. I would highly suggest reading the sections on the Demon Wastes and the Shadow Marches, if you can. As for getting into Khyber, that's not simple either. The only available ways are scaling down a pit like the Glowing Chasm, the Keeper's Lair, or the Black Pit; jumping into a volcano; or getting imprisonment cast on yourself. Nice signature, Gurv. Just remember, world ending madness can be found just by looking down.
cosmikube 12-15-04, 06:46 PM	Also, 'demon' generally refers to rakshasas, and their Lords of Dust. They are the demons created by Khyber at the beginning of time. Oh, I know! But demon is spelled much more easier than rakshasa! ;) Anyway, I love what Keith Baker did with the rakshasa! While they were just another type of zoomorphic humanoid, he made them cool by giving them real evil! I would never have considered udsing a rakshasa before in my games... Now I can't wait to use one! :D
Aris Stormdragon 12-15-04, 10:20 PM	So if the Seals are weakening, do you think that it is possible that one or more of the Daelkyr or Demons may have escaped and is wandering around Eberron as we speak (ala the Forsaken in the Wheel of Time)? *Sniff* I smell a Campaign Arc. :plotting: :evillaugh
Gurv 12-15-04, 10:40 PM	Oh, I know! But demon is spelled much more easier than rakshasa! ;) Anyway, I love what Keith Baker did with the rakshasa! While they were just another type of zoomorphic humanoid, he made them cool by giving them real evil! I would never have considered udsing a rakshasa before in my games... Now I can't wait to use one! :D Just making sure the distinction was being made :) I think they are much improved in Eberron. Even the recent Ecology of the Rakshasa article in Dragon didn't do them justice. It made passing mention of their role in Eberron, but otherwise painted them as a pale reflection of how I now picture them. So if the Seals are weakening, do you think that it is possible that one or more of the Daelkyr or Demons may have escaped and is wandering around Eberron as we speak (ala the Forsaken in the Wheel of Time)? Sure, if thats what you want. I don't think it has to go so far as to have them wandering freely. They are near epic beings that we are talking about, which is pretty much an automatic overkill in Eberron. Unless you have PCs of that caliber, I'd say keep them trapped, with their cultists working to free them. A mark of the genre is having such an unstoppable evil on the verge of destroying the world, but stopped by much lesser forces of good. A prime example would be the daelkyr, nearing freedom, and using its power to bring together/strengthen/equip their minions. The PCs need never battle the daelkyr, only the minions, and the threat level remains high even if the CRs battled never go above 5. (I'm not familiar with the details of The Wheel of Time, despite having the RP game right here. I need to get my hands on the novels, because the material is excellent.)
Jayj 12-15-04, 10:58 PM	The Daelkyr are something I love dearly. The idea that they are simply mad monsters is kind of sidestepping their import, IMHO... it's partially caused by the fact that they are named as a group and not as individuals, which therefore makes them seem vaguer. You see, in my view, the Daelkyr are an attempt to make Eberron compatible with Call of Cthulhu style gametypes. If you have read anything by Lovecraft or associated authors, think of the Daelkyr as minor Great Old Ones, and you've pretty much got the idea. In more verbose form: there are things outside the world we know that are terrible and powerful, things so powerful that, though they can die, they may as well be gods, for they do not age and none can stand against them. They are trapped in the world, and most of them sleep or rest, waiting for the conditions to come about where they can awaken. Merely the sight of them and their servants can drive men mad, because their countenances are so outside what is normal and sane and good that it breaks the mind to try to fit them into what we 'know' to be real. Their influence and presence brings great evil, and if they are released they will bring certain ruin to the world, but at the same time, they are not evil. They are beyond it, beyond all we can comprehend. In Eberron, they are the Daelkyr. In the Cthulhu Mythos, they are the Great Old Ones. Their power is worshipped by innumerable cults, encouraged by their 'servitors', races that serve the Daelkyr/Great Old Ones (mind flayers, dolgaunts in Eberron, byakhee, deep ones in Mythos). Some cults are simply deranged and mostly harmless, but others try to free their masters or otherwise cause harm, such as human sacrifice. The cults rarely know what it is, exactly, they worship (how can anyone know something that is beyond the mind's ability to fit?) and their dogma is typically brutal, primal, convoluted, and frequently contradictory, even within their own ranks, to say nothing of different branches of the 'same' cult. Creepiness, horror, and a feeling of your entire world being an insignificant speck in the cosmos is what the typical feeling of those types of campaigns are like. The Daelkyr are best suited to that. My take on it is that "Siberys", i.e. space, is a lot bigger than we think, and that the non-planar Eberron cosmology is a lot closer to the star/planet type we're used to. Xoriat is a rogue planet caught by Eberron's sun, and the Daelkyr are lesser beings using it as a ferry. There are really many, many more worlds like Eberron out there, each of them stranger and more dangerous than the last, infested with beings more powerful and malevolent than the Daelkyr. I also intend to name the Daelkyr of Eberron, much as the Great Old Ones are named, but the Daelkyr, availing themselves of servitor races, are but pawns of greater alien beings, a couple of whom are trapped in Eberron. What if Khyber, the Dragon Below, trapped within Eberron's crust... isn't really a dragon? And that great eye mentioned within the whirling storms in the center of Dal Quor? What if it were the avatar of a vast being, laying dead but dreaming, deep below the ocean near Sarlona?
heathwilder 03-11-06, 07:22 PM	And the deamons that arn't Rakshasa?? This has been bugging me for a while for I do so love my Demons and Devils as bad guys. I know that they are scattered about the planes with a large contingent on Shavarath but the dispisipating of them into mostly groups mostly unconnected to Eberron is a bit disappointing to me. Everything has a place in Eberron but sometimes it's behind the cushions on the couch. Any ideas to make my day peeps?? (I also love HP Lovecraft and most of my games have a Cthulu flavour ... good to hear so much creepyness in the pulp action of Eberron)
igotsmeakabob!! 03-11-06, 08:09 PM	Alot of demons serve the Lords of Dust. Dragon Mag 337 details a few of the more prominent Lords, their claws, demons, etc. <SNIP>
Melvin the Mediocre 03-11-06, 08:57 PM	the problem i have is with the concept of Khyber! At first i though that Khyber was like the Underdark... And yet, both the daelkyr and the demon lords the Lords of Dust serve are somehow trapped in Khyber... My question is, what does this mean? How are they trapped? You should pick of Magic of Eberron. It deals with the Daelkyr quite a bit. In fact it has a sort of mini dungeon, or a jump start for a dungeon that is centered around a Daelkyr, The Stained One. This Daelkyr is physically trapped in a ball of stone referred to as "The Cyst." The Stained One can not even communicate with its followers except through psionics and as a result the surrounding dungepn is under the command of a telepathic mind flayer (illithid).
Rechan 03-11-06, 09:05 PM	Khyber also birthed the Night Hags along with the Rakshasha during the Age of Demons. IMHO the Rajahs aren't freely roaming around Khyber like the Daelkyr; they are likely bound to some sort of prison like an Enormous Khyber Dragonshard. These bound Rajah manage to manipulate the places around them (possibly by the very radiation of their evil). The Cults of the Dragon Below could worship the Daelkyr (and subsequent Aberrations), the Rajahs, or Khyber itself, considering how it birthed the native Demons and other creatures; Khyber has its own power. Though I think too much focus has been given to Daelkyr-Cults; I want to see some Rajah/Khyber cult action! As to your question about general "Demons and Devils", they are in the various other Planes. The Plane of Battle (Shavarath) would have a lot of Demons, Devils, and Celestials constantly at War. Plane of Chaos (Kythri) would have Slaadi. Fernia (plane of Fire) and Mabar (Endless Night) are equally likely to have either Demon or Devil. These outsiders could cross over when the Stars and Moons are in line, and in any solid Manifest Zone (A manifest zone is where a plane is strongly tied to Eberron in a certain area, like Sharn).
Ryuu_Tenshi 03-11-06, 09:28 PM	I would also say to take a look at the Player's Guide to Eberron... they have a list of a few of the more powerful Daelkyr lords trapped in Khyber. My favourite is Belashayk (I think that's how it's spelled o.O), the Lord of Eyes... he created the beholders, and it's said that he exists within a sphere whose walls are covered in thousands of eyes of every conceviable size, and that by touching these eyes he can look through the eyes of any one of his servants. I can imagine him having the party trapped, and looking at the kaleshtar's eyes... "How strange, how beautiful, how perfect... eyes that are a fusion of dream, and reality... curious, curious indeed... I have not seen such unusual eyes in many centuries, not since I was brought a silver dragon... no... curious, curious..." And then, naturally, he plucks them out. And probably replaces them with something much more "interesting" That's my other impression of Daelkyr... their minds are utterly beyond our comprehension, but like Nyarlathotep they can seem quite human... completely human, and totally reasonable. I imagine they can even be rather well spoken... but then you glimpse the truth behind their perfect faces and see... Ah. Speaking of that, there's a symbiont I really, really, really want to look into... an Eye of the Beholder. Or multiple eyes, actually. A Greater Eye of the Beholder is a large eye, 2-3 inches in diameter, sometimes larger, that can be implanted anywhere on the body. when open, it creates an antimagic cone generated from the location it is in... also other eyes with the various ray effects of the beholder eyestalks. I just have this image of some cultist raising his hand and this eye opens in it, and the wizard goes, "Oh ****." ... <3 Daelkyr...
Euangelion 03-12-06, 09:27 PM	The other thing to keep in mind (I don't think someone's mentioned it before) is that for some strange, unfathomable(sp?) reason the daelkyr themselves do not appear to be actively attempting to break their bonds and escape Khyber (there's a notable exception in the Breland chapter of Five Nations, which you can take or leave as you see fit). Unlike the daelkyr, the rajahs and the other fiends are bound by the Silver Flame individually within massive Khyber shards and are basically sleeping, with only a very limited idea of anything going on around them. Based on the information from the other books, Explorer's Handbook probably takes the phrase "Demon Wastes" a little too literally. I second what Rechan said about the Cults of Dragon Below being too focused on the daelkyr and their minions. If it were up to me, I would have created two different religions, called either the Cults of Madness or the Cults of Xoriat (daelkyr and minions, CE, domains:Chaos, Evil, Madness, and another domain based on the portfolio of the daelkyr in question) and the Cults of Khyber (worshipping Khyber directly and/or its progeny, including the rajahs and the night hags, NE, domains: Dragon Below, Evil, and one or two other domains based on the portfolio of the rajah/night hag in question.)
heathwilder 03-13-06, 07:36 AM	Explorer's Handbook probably takes the phrase "Demon Wastes" a little too literally. I second what Rechan said about the Cults of Dragon Below being too focused on the daelkyr and their minions. If it were up to me, I would have created two different religions, called either the Cults of Madness or the Cults of Xoriat (daelkyr and minions, CE, domains:Chaos, Evil, Madness, and another domain based on the portfolio of the daelkyr in question) and the Cults of Khyber (worshipping Khyber directly and/or its progeny, including the rajahs and the night hags, NE, domains: Dragon Below, Evil, and one or two other domains based on the portfolio of the rajah/night hag in question.) I hear you on both these .... there is minimal distinction here between the 2 and what is going on in Kyber. I realise that Khyber is - like Xendrick - the DM's playpen but I think that the threads given in regards to Khyber are missleading or weak in regards to the 2 power groups and their overt relationship. I do have a Cults relating to the Lord of Dust (rajahs nighthags and Khyber itself) as separate to Cults of the Dragon Below (which to the inner circle are Cults of Xoriat). It's just that most of the LoD in my game are more manipulative and couldn't be arsed creating cults - but good point there. I do find it funny that there is an Age of Demons and a Demon Waste that really have little connection to Demons per sae. All the REAL demons are busy faffing about willy nilly all over the planes. Those guys are SOOOO hard to organise! Oh and thanks igotsmeakabob!! .... I have the magazine already in my collection purchased in full at the news stand ;)