Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Useless 10-23-04, 05:24 PM	So, Eberron draws somewhat from pulp whatsits and has its Great War equivalent. And it features those smashing elemental flying ships. Now, our Great War spurred the development of flying machines tremendously, going from rickety pretty much Wright fliers to fighting thoroughbreds like the Sopwith Camels and Fokker D-VIIIs in the space of four years. And you may have noticed something of a mythology grew up around the men who flew these machines in combat. Post Kasiers war all this new technology was applied to carrying passengers and freight, leading to things like the Empire flying boats, Pan Am Clippers and the great passenger carrying Zeppelins like the Hindenburg and R101. Reminds one of the Flying Ships right? But I was thinking it might be nice to try to evoke the dogfighting biplanes of the western front for Ebberon. Which leads me to (and I must warn you in advance that I can't really draw so you will have to use your imagination):- http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul_gylyan.boielle/KOTS.jpg Here we see a late war two man elemental powered flying chariot. Similar examples were being used by most nations by the end of the Final War although many different configurations including the use of pusher rings, different elemental arrangements (Straight Line, X and Inverted V being popular alternatives)and the use of air elementals instead of fire elementals and all sizes of craft were used*. Elemental wrangling techniques of the day were comparatively primitive (albeit improving rapidly) but even this relatively weak specimen can exert a pull equal to that of fifty horses on the chariot. Armament is typically one Mage or Archer, although some have had success with a sheild and javelin technique. Er, and when you aren’t using it you keep the elemental in a specially warded box. Then to start the chariot you let it out and feed it through the special rings on the frame, where it races round in a circle until it catches its own tail and the magic ignites and it forms the ring (with looks like both a propeller and a sorta circular wing. Right?) Because dogfighting is cool yo. And so a chariots. *This would allow one to have distinctive looks for different factions craft.
Somebloke 10-23-04, 11:15 PM	I was already planning to allow small squadrons of flying cavalry....eagles and such. Most have been disbanded after the last war, however. Look out for a prestige class.
Darkest90 10-24-04, 02:43 AM	Hey! This is an awesome idea! That was a very cool piece of concept art, too, by the way. Yours? Good job. Question: Are the gunners magewrights or wizard/sorcerers? Anyways... This would be perfect for Eberron. Just imagine what could battles you could have in the air, these small airborne vehicles racing around each other, fire rings blazing. Oh no! VOOM! Your enemy swoops down near enough to singe your hair, and a barrage of magic missiles slams into your hull. Pulling back, you scowl as your beauty starts sparking from the damage. Wind sears your eyes as you turn back for another pass. You twirl and swoop down under your target at the last second, and a prepared scorching ray tears your enemy's craft into two burning pieces. You smile and zoom back to headquarters, another day to live. Yeah, that would be cool. I have two suggestions. First, I don't think it should be a two-man craft. At least, not for the heroes. The lone flying ace is too cool and iconic to miss out on. One-man crafts manned by a mid-level wizard/pilot would be someone very cool to look up to. The Red Baron of Eberron. Someone can drive and shoot at the same time, can't they? Second, I think it'd be cool to add a sort of American cowboy aspect into the fray. Maybe the fire/air elemental is sort of a companion, and it would be a cool relationship for the pilot. When your craft burns away by one too many acid splashes, you may survive your plummet to the sea, but your hero has a stronge case of vengeance now. This also opens up a new world for airborne-centered spells, prestige classes, and items. How will you use spells that are normally used on the ground, in the air? How will different organizations and nations use these aircraft? Will only storm dragonmarked pilot them? How many are there, since in Eberron, there is a scarcity of aircraft? Personally, I think there should be a small armada for each nation. The more primitive areas (Shadow Marches, Demon Wastes, Droaam, Darguun) might not have any organized mass of dogfighters (though a bugbear-piloted plane would be awesome). But the prominent ones would have maybe at least thirty, and the other ones (Lazaar, Eldeen) might have twenty. Breland and Zilargo might have as many as fifty. I think this gives a good quantity of opposition from enemy pilots. And, any dogfight between two of these one-man aircraft is going to be very important, as just the loss of one aircraft is going to be bad. I don't like the idea of the name 'flying chariot', though. Please find another name. Great idea, I'll support you the entire way, good luck. - Darkest90
Iron_Peanut 10-24-04, 05:29 AM	Piloted by Artificer/Fighters, I'd wager, moving into some new prestige class. This one idea springboards in to a whole other campaign for the setting. Pilots dogfighting it out over the magic-blasted battlegrounds of the Last War! Excellent job, chief. Imagine it! Your Cyran squadron flies out , skirmishing at the border with an enormous Zilargo sky-fortress, when suddenly Thrane's ariel forces move on your position. Paladins on Gryphons!
nyysjan 10-24-04, 09:52 AM	Sounds nifty just be carefull or you will do same that Drizzt did to drow in FR it seems sometimes that everyone and their uncle is drow or is friends with one
Zagumus 10-24-04, 12:09 PM	I love this idea, I think that you could have an entire party and adventure based on a normal airship and like 3 air chariots, I figure two could be in the hold and one on deck. If they are piloted by magewrights then the magewrights could use wands while they fly. But maybe a character with the approperate mark could get more out of the ship. I like the picture that you made... try going over it with ink so it is easier to see and I think it would be perfect. Thanks for the inspiration.
Useless 10-25-04, 08:22 AM	+++++Just imagine what could battles you could have in the air, these small airborne vehicles racing around each other, fire rings blazing. Oh no! VOOM! Your enemy swoops down near enough to singe your hair, and a barrage of magic missiles slams into your hull. Pulling back, you scowl as your beauty starts sparking from the damage. Wind sears your eyes as you turn back for another pass. You twirl and swoop down under your target at the last second, and a prepared scorching ray tears your enemy's craft into two burning pieces. You smile and zoom back to headquarters, another day to live.+++++ Precisely! +++++First, I don't think it should be a two-man craft. At least, not for the heroes. The lone flying ace is too cool and iconic to miss out on. One-man crafts manned by a mid-level wizard/pilot would be someone very cool to look up to. The Red Baron of Eberron. Someone can drive and shoot at the same time, can't they?+++++ Aye But I think theres an attraction to multi person crews as well. It is (it seems to me) somehow less expected than one man things, and I was reading Dan Simmon’s Illium (and to an extent the Illiad in honour of the movie) and there are all these cool moments when people swear to fight back to back to the death and then leap in to chariots and charge off towards the foe, or someone summons their chariot to make a sharp exit when wounded on the battlefield. You could get some really dramatic moments of intense teamwork. At least in a movie. I’m not sure about a game, but someones driver could just be represented by their driver skill and an occasional mention that they have an extra mouth to feed. But its easier to do witty banter in teams. Plus having a back seat guy makes ripping off Top Gun easier. +++++Second, I think it'd be cool to add a sort of American cowboy aspect into the fray. Maybe the fire/air elemental is sort of a companion, and it would be a cool relationship for the pilot. When your craft burns away by one too many acid splashes, you may survive your plummet to the sea, but your hero has a strong case of vengeance now.+++++ Oh yeah, strong bonds forming between a pilot and his elemental. +++++Sounds nifty just be careful or you will do same that Drizzt did to drow in FR it seems sometimes that everyone and their uncle is drow or is friends with one+++++ Well, to an extent Eberron already seems to feature the industrialisation of magic, and so the coolness comes from having whole cities illuminated by continual light rather than finding the Legendary Ever Glowing Staff of Zuul. It always seems a waste to feature cool stuff in a setting but not let people play with it. -- To an extent I favour allowing greater access to the ability to drive things like Lightning Rail trains and Airships, as I think competition is always useful – with more lightning rail companies than just one you can have Great Lightning Rail Wars as competing groups rush to be the first to establish rail links to new places. Or with more airship operators you can have groups try to outdo each other with the opulence and speed of their airships (ala the duel between the Queen Mary and Normandie to set the fastest crossing of the Atlantic). But one option might be to have comparatively common magic reins to allow control of small, chariot style airships, while still needing a dragon mark to control the much more powerful airship lifting elementals. -- Ponder with me now a souped up sky chariot using two (or more) fire rings in series – for extra speed. As for a name, er - Mental Sled? :-)
Hrothgar the Dwarf 10-25-04, 02:36 PM	I just like the picture of a Lhazzar aircraft carrier with 4-5 of these on it. Air pirates from crimson skies anyone?
Beleriphon 10-25-04, 03:40 PM	I just like the picture of a Lhazzar aircraft carrier with 4-5 of these on it. Air pirates from crimson skies anyone? I can't help but picture Don Karnage from Tale Spin when you say this. Yes its a dorky kids show, but still it has some neat ideas in terms of aircraft and how they would be used for trade.
Just another user 10-25-04, 06:04 PM	I thought that this was what dragonhawks were for.
Iron_Weasel 10-25-04, 06:18 PM	I can't help but picture Don Karnage from Tale Spin when you say this. Yes its a dorky kids show, but still it has some neat ideas in terms of aircraft and how they would be used for trade. Tale Spin was one of my favourite shows, and was a laugh riot, to boot. I'm sure you agree, yes-no? ;) Overall, this idea rocks! Better still, these devices are a natural extension of ideas put forward in one of the first Dragonshards, "Heroic Journeys" (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040719a): [...] rumors say that House Lyrandar and the Zil shipwrights have produced a small, experimental airship capable of traveling 50 miles/hour and landing without a full dock. Now we just need a good name for these contraptions! Cheers!
gaerfindel 10-25-04, 10:51 PM	Tale Spin was one of my favourite shows, and was a laugh riot, to boot. I'm sure you agree, yes-no? ;) Baloo & Kit: "Don Karnage!" Karnage: "No, no, no, my friends. It is the feared pirate Don Karnage." Yeah, I miss Talespin, too. :(:( I can just see Karnage as an expat Cyran dragonhawk skyknight whose skyship, the Iron Vulture is all he has left of his homeland.
Iron_Weasel 10-26-04, 01:02 PM	[ a bunch of other cool stuff snipped for space ] To an extent I favour allowing greater access to the ability to drive things like Lightning Rail trains and Airships, as I think competition is always useful – with more lightning rail companies than just one you can have Great Lightning Rail Wars as competing groups rush to be the first to establish rail links to new places. Or with more airship operators you can have groups try to outdo each other with the opulence and speed of their airships (ala the duel between the Queen Mary and Normandie to set the fastest crossing of the Atlantic). A cool idea, but you have to consider the power and influence of the Dragonmarked Houses. Would they stand for such a thing, or would they use their considerable political pull and vast economic resources to crush upstarts? On the other hand, if this is already a fait accompli in your campaign, then all the better! But one option might be to have comparatively common magic reins to allow control of small, chariot style airships, while still needing a dragon mark to control the much more powerful airship lifting elementals. Or, perhaps these new fangled reins trade effectiveness for the ability of just about anyone to use them: perhaps the reins allow someone without the Mark of Storm to control the elemental, but you have to make opposed Charisma checks every round (free action). If you fail, the elemental does what it wants (climbing, diving, banking, rolling, etc) and might even threaten to slip its bindings and escape. Imagine a pitched battle with a flight of dragonhawk riders, when suddenly your wingman's chariot bursts into flame as the elemental escapes and begins wrecking havoc! I do think that a pilot with an appropriate Dragonmark should get an advantage, though. Perhaps an Heir of the Mark of Storm enojys greater speed or maneuverability, or maybe she doesn't have to make opposed checks? This could result in a Flying Circus-style squadron of Lyrandar Aces, charged with defending crucial House vessels from pirates and other airborne threats. What about weapons systems? A single-person model might have repeating crossbows mounted on the front, or perhaps the Magewright, Sorceror or Artificer pilot carries wands of Acid Orb, Magic Missile and/or Scorching Ray (BTW, Magewrights can use wands without a UMD check, right?). A two-person vessel might leave offense to the second rider, who could employ bows, crossbows, spells, or even slings and javelins against enemies. I just like the picture of a Lhazzar aircraft carrier with 4-5 of these on it. Air pirates from Crimson Skies anyone? Indeed. Not only would it be cool, but such a vessel might offer at least a partial explanation for why House Lyrandar and its fancy elemental galleons haven't "sunk" (excuse the pun ;)) Lhazaarite trade yet. Plus, such a vessel could become the focus of an adventure, or even a campaign - "Sink the Kraken's Tooth!" As for the question of who possesses these marvels, I'd make them quite rare and unusual - a military status symbol, really. I can see Breland and Karrnath having the largest numbers, perhaps as many as three or four squadrons. Breland can afford it, and Karrnath's long and proud martial tradition means that they wouldn't want to be seen as being clearly inferior to anyone in any respect. Aundair and Thrane might have smaller numbers, mostly to keep up with their fellow successor states (I imagine that most of Thrane's vessels would be deployed near the Karrnathi border). Other regions like Valenar, the Talenta Plains, the Eldeen Reaches, and the Shadow Marches wouldn't have any, IMO. The Mror Holds could afford it, but living under the mountains, the dwarves have little fear of aerial assaults (and thus, little use for air defenses). There might be a few vessels kicking around the Lhazaar principalities and Darguun ("Oh no! It's the Red Gobbo!"), but I don't see any in Droaam - that's what the Harpy Flights are for. Zilargo might have a few as well, but I can see the Gnomes - ever concerned with maintaining the appearance of neutrality - keeping only a minimal number of these things, so as not to present themselves as any kind of threat to anyone. Anyone have any other ideas, especially as far as actually operating these things might go? Cheers!
helzapoppn 10-26-04, 01:20 PM	I do like the idea, but the image of dozens or hundreds of these air chariots, fighting skiffs, etc., pushes us too far in the direction of pure 'magitech' for my comfort. There are many factors limiting the production of such vessels. The availability of Khyber shards for binding elementals being one. The limited expertise to make them outside of Zilargo being another. Then there's the 'need' factor. In the real World War I, aircraft were needed because we don't have magical means of flying, nor the ability to scry enemy positions from a distance. The vast trenches in France were protected from ground attack, but not from the air, whch is why observer planes started carrying small bombs (at first, pilots were literally tossing grenades into the trenches)...which led to actual bombers...which led to smaller, faster aircraft to destroy those bombers...which led to both sides having smaller, faster aircraft to fight each other (using aerobatics and squadron tactics) so that the bombers could get through. I can see some experimental models, as a good plot point or as the focus of an adventure, but nothing like Crimson Skies. They don't have to be elemental vessels either -- House Cannith could have made a prototype Warforged with wings instead of arms, grasping feet for dropping vials of alchemist fire and shoulder-mounted Armbows (for one example).
Iron_Weasel 10-26-04, 01:48 PM	I do like the idea, but the image of dozens or hundreds of these air chariots, fighting skiffs, etc., pushes us too far in the direction of pure 'magitech' for my comfort. Granted. There are many factors limiting the production of such vessels. The availability of Khyber shards for binding elementals being one. The limited expertise to make them outside of Zilargo being another. Then there's the 'need' factor[...] I'd actually thought of this as well, but forgot to include it in my last post. A logical question of course - and the one implied in your post - is why aren't there thousand of these things kicking around? As you say, the need for Dragonshards is a major factor. I was thinking that only Dragonshards of a particular size/caliber would be acceptable for these contraptions - the same Dragonshards that are in demand for things like Lightning Rails, Airships, Jorasco Altars and Bags of Bounty. Your point about need is an excellent one. I'd point out, however, that towards the end of the Last War, airships were used in a combat role, despite the availability of flying and scrying magics. Air chariots could be an experimental extension of combat airships - perhaps someone other than House Lyrandar is interested in them, because they want a way to bring down airships! Of course, you could always just use warriors on flying animals, like Wyverns or Spider Eaters, but I maintain that air chariots are more pulpy and cooler. But that's just me. That said, the fact that the Last War is officially over does mean that there's not much impetus to continue to develop these devices, so their development might stagnate or even cease until their needed again (if ever). This might lead to maybe a dozen of the things lying around in a storehouse somewhere, just waiting to be stolen by bandits, terrorists, or PCs with an unrealised desire to fly... I can see some experimental models, as a good plot point or as the focus of an adventure, but nothing like Crimson Skies. I agree. I wouldn't want to change the focus of Eberron to the advancement of flying and flight - then it really would be too magitech. But I do think there might be a place for air chariots. They don't have to be elemental vessels either -- House Cannith could have made a prototype Warforged with wings instead of arms, grasping feet for dropping vials of alchemist fire and shoulder-mounted Armbows (for one example). So, elemental aero-fighters are too magitech, but flying, fire-bombing magical cyborgs are ok? :D I kid, of course. Cheers!
gaerfindel 10-27-04, 10:54 AM	Consolidating a number of ideas, here: Aerial Squadrons Here I see mostly magebred griffons and dragonhawks. And yes, a Flying Circus-style of combat would most definitely fit in the pulp-adventure of Eberron. Aundair, with it's tradition of flying beasts serving Arcanix; or Breland, with it's need for aerial coaches and the like, may have pioneered the taming and breeding of large flying beast (the Soarwing riders of the Talent aside), but it was a von Richten-like Karrn who adapted the wild tactics of Valenar cavalry to aerial combat. Sky Chariots During the early years of manned powered flight, aeroplanes were often the playthings of rich nobleese. This led, naturally enough, to aerial races and such. I can see a sort of Around Khorvaire in 80 Days sorta race being very appropriate to the setting. Still, the sky chariots would be experimental, rickety, and very tempermental.
Iron_Weasel 10-27-04, 11:08 AM	Consolidating a number of ideas, here: Aerial Squadrons Here I see mostly magebred griffons and dragonhawks. And yes, a Flying Circus-style of combat would most definitely fit in the pulp-adventure of Eberron. Aundair, with it's tradition of flying beasts serving Arcanix; or Breland, with it's need for aerial coaches and the like, may have pioneered the taming and breeding of large flying beast (the Soarwing riders of the Talenta aside), but it was a von Richtoffen-like Karrn who adapted the wild tactics of Valenar cavalry to aerial combat. :thumbsup: me likey, especially since it fits largely with my own feelings. Air chariots are cool, but I imagine that "air cavalry" is still exactly that! Sky Chariots During the early years of manned powered flight, aeroplanes were often the playthings of rich nobleese. This led, naturally enough, to aerial races and such. I can see a sort of Around Khorvaire in 80 Days sorta race being very appropriate to the setting. Still, the sky chariots would be experimental, rickety, and very temperamental. My thoughts exactly. The air chariots need to be persnickety enough that most sane people stay away from them. With no real demand for them (outside people with too much money and the occassional government order for a trial models), any development that went on would be largely private endeavours - perhaps an artificer or wizard determined to break House Lyrandar's monopoly on aerial shipping and transport. The idea of a big contest, part Hidalgo, part The Amazing Race, would be an excellent adventure hook. Perhaps some wealthy noble needs a band of brave adventurers to represent him over land, sea and air in this year's race? Cheers!
gaerfindel 10-27-04, 05:06 PM	So here's some fiction I'm sorta working on to help explore the rise of aerial cavalry. Tell me what y'think! The young Baron was nervous. Not that he’d let anyone know it. Not now. Not when so ‎much rested on today’s events going smoothly. By Jarot’s Crown, he swore to himself, ‎just let today go well.‎ Gustav ir’Daanl, third Lord Baron of Irren-Karrn, Knight-Militant in His Majesty’s Army, ‎graduate of the Rekkenmark and the College of the Twelve, recipient of both the Crossed ‎Sabres and the Order of the King’s Legion, needed today to go well. He’d sunk most of ‎his family’s fortune into making this dream a reality. Hiring explorers to find and ‎retrieve the griffon eggs from the Endworld Mountains. Hiring the House Deneith ‎mercenaries to protect the explorers from the halfling barbarians who infested the Talenta. ‎‎(Not that he had anything personally against the Short Folk; Houses Jorasco and ‎Ghallanda were quite civilied. Those lizard-riding savages, on the other hand…) ‎Financing the construction of eyries. Retaining Vadalis breeders to make a griffon that ‎would carry a man aloft and Vadalis trainers to teach the beasts how. Employing more ‎Deneith guards to ensue no one bothered the eyries. And all the loan payments to the ‎Banking Guild when cash was a little too short. No, there was too much invested in this ‎crackpot scheme of his. And that was just the financial burden. A burden that would ‎mean nothing compared to the shame he’d face if today’s demonstration failed.‎ ‎“The central falacy of current thinking in aerial combat”, he’d announced to the ‎Knights-Commandant of the Rekkenmark, “is that combat can only be conducted one-‎on-one in an aerial joust. That any attempt to gang up on an opponent would result in ‎everyone, riders and mounts all, crashing into each other and plummeting to the ground. ‎This is not so.” That met with incredulous stares and murmurs. At lest they’d given him ‎the go-ahead to demostrate his theories. Of course, if he failed…‎ He wouldn’t fail. He couldn’t. Too much time, too much effort, too many lives lost ‎already to this abominable war with the other four Kingdoms of Galifar. At least with a ‎cadre of griffon-riding skyknights, Cyre wouldn’t be so quick to raid across the border.‎ He signaled to Randl, his wingman. They rose into the air as one, and chased after ‎Vedim, who’d flown ahead to act the part of the enemy. Baron ir’Daanl and Randl had ‎rehearsed daily for the past ten weeks. They could fly over and around each other like a ‎fanciful, aerial ballet. The plan was simple. Randl would chase Vedim, firing off bursts ‎from his wand to prevent Vedim from noticing the Baron. Vedim would do his level best ‎to avoid being shot down, and riding a dragonhawk, that wasn’t hard. Those birds flew ‎faster than any griffon. But so long as Vedim didn’t notice the Baron riding his griffon a ‎hundred spans above, he and Randl would have him. One good diving charge and the ‎dragonhawk would be too wounded to fly well. Vedim would have to land. After that, ‎conventional cavalry could take over. It would work.‎ It had to work. Too much depended on it.‎ ‎
Iron_Weasel 10-27-04, 05:21 PM	[...] It had to work. Too much depended on it.‎ Gah! What happens?! I must know!!! In other words: Please, sir - may I have some more? :D Cheers!
Beleriphon 10-27-04, 06:02 PM	It had to work. Too much depended on it.‎ ‎[/INDENT] Gah! What happens, what happens? You can't leave us like that, its unfair, its inhuman, its unjust I say! Hellfire and damnation I demand for fiction! If I don't get it I might just well.... erghgh.... :headexplo