Post/Author/DateTime	Post
okaynowa 12-06-04, 06:55 AM	I'm an amateur linguist (conversational level in three languages) and philologist, and perhaps a little more interested in that aspect of campaign design than my players probably care for. Looking at the history of population migrations and settlement in Eberron, I broke the spoken languages of Eberron into broad language families (detailed below, all personal supposition and non-binding :) ). Languages within the same family will share certain grammatical and vocabulary similarities to one degree or another. Not enough for any great deal of comprehension, maybe, but enough so that (for example) a Brelander and a Riedran know when one is saying "thank you." Xen'drik languages The Giant language dominates this family, and its archaic written form is still studied today. Elven and the Drow dialect are also Xen'drik in origin, though the former acquired more features from Sylvan and the latter retains more Giant influence. Sarlonan languages Modern Common, the language of the Galifar crown, descended from the language spoken by Lhazaar and her people in Sarlona. Pre-Galifar humans in Khorvaire may have spoken different tongues, and the Five Nations still have noticeably different accents, but the language consolidated heavily during the time of the Kingdom. Likewise, the languages of Sarlona were culturally suppressed by the Quori until only Riedran, an outsider-influenced dialect of Old Common, remains. The languages of the Argonessen barbarians, beneath their heavy Draconic influence, point to various pre-Quori Sarlonan languages less closely related to Lhazaar's tongue. Khorvaire languages The native languages of Khorvaire are Goblin, Dwarven, Gnome, Orc, and Halfling. Goblin is the most widespread and influential thanks to the one-time Dhakaani Empire (and the modern Dhakaani tribal dialect is still the strongest). Gnome shows the strongest links to Goblin, though the language is famous for its adoption of loan-words (especially false cognates). The Dwarven language suggests possible roots in the language of the Cold Plane, with but with many Terran structures. Orcish and Halfling show the most isolated structures, though they still have many Goblin-derived words (especially in relation to war). Outsider languages The languages of the planes (such as Celestial, Terran, and so forth) are remarkable in their lack of dialect and drift. The Ignan spoken today is, as far as scholars can tell, exactly the same as Ignan spoken five thousand years ago. As such, these Outsider languages may be more a phenomenon of magic than a means of cultural expression. Sages suppose the Outsiders who speak these languages may experience time in a different fashion than the mortals of Eberron, or that an aspect of planar consciousness or telepathy is at work. So What's the Point? Belonging to the same broad language family means that these tongues share certain features. For example: Xen'drik Languages-- Giant and Elven share a great deal of vocabulary when it comes to magic and the arcane, since at one point the two races followed similar traditions. Naming conventions, however, are pointedly different, rooted as they are in a caste/class system of masters and slaves. Sarlonan Languages-- Common and other Sarlonan languages, much like languages from real Earth language families, have similar sounding words for things like number, family members, and celestial features. However human languages tend to change faster than, say, Elven or Dwarven, so regional dialects and accents crop up at a relatively faster rate. Khoravar, the half-elven based creole of Elven and Common, most appropriately belongs to this language family for that reason. Khorvaire Languages-- These languages, given the early "Balkanization" of their parent cultures, tend to intersect in a narrower range of vocabulary. Words of war, such as weapons, military ranks, and combat maneuvers tend to sound alike in these tongues thanks to the influence of Goblin. They also have nearly identical vocabulary when it comes to discussing the Daelkyr, a continent-wide common experience. They differ quite greatly when it comes to such concepts as levels of respect and politeness, and terms for family/tribe members. I wrote another little article on Eberronian writing systems here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=348542).
Jimmy_Groove 12-06-04, 09:36 AM	Excellent work and insight. I'd like to how you handle the spread of the Draconic language in this world, and look forward to implementing a few of your ideas. I've personally been using a great deal of goblin vocabulary pulled and expanded from Ebberon, so language is a favorite issue for me as well.
Rinna 12-06-04, 11:20 AM	An English major myself, I often think about origin of words. I was actually having a language problem with one of my players, deciding what languages he should know. Besides your opinion on how Draconic fits into the mix, I'd be interested in your ideas on what would be Khorvaire's equivalent of Latin? In scholarly works, would it be Draconic, Giant, Old Common? Would it depend on what topics the scholar was studying? I'd imagine, like many settings, magic would have a Draconic base, as the dragons taught the giants originally. I'd be interested in anyone's thoughts. On a similar thread, what language do you think any old documents talking about the ancient quori and daelkyr invasions would have been written in? Or would there even be documents? Rinna
okaynowa 12-06-04, 12:39 PM	All good questions-- I expected the matter of Draconic would come up rather quickly :) Here's how I see it in my campaign-- Draconic shares certain features with the Outsider languages in that it appears to be immutable. Sages theorize (their sources are old and unconfirmed) that hatchlings are born speaking Draconic thanks to some sort of racial memory. If such is the case, then Draconic (as spoken by dragons) is more of a species trait than a cultural means of expression. Draconic as spoken by the humanoid races could be called a "watered down" dialect-- it is grammatically and vocabulary-wise the same language, but it misses something when coming from the palate of a six foot human instead of the lungs of a thirty ton wyrm. A relatively "pure" strain of Draconic is still used among magicians, thanks mainly to the longevity of magic writings, divinations, and other arcane sources. The influence of Draconic on Giant and Elven has been somewhat muted over the 60,000 years since those races first learned it. It shows up much more directly in Argon, which is more a family of creoles born from the merging of Draconic and various pre-Quori Sarlonan languages. Draconic also shows up heavily in the cant of the Druids. The Druidic tradition was first taught (it is believed) by the dragon Vvaraak to orcs in Khorvaire nearly 16 centuries ago. The druidic language has evolved and introduced new terms over time, but it is a highly secretive and traditional code-tongue, so the drift has not been that great. The greatest influence on the Druidic cant since its inception has been the great pine Oalian, though we can only wonder what one would consider the "native language" of an awakened tree. More in a moment...
Foxboy2000 12-06-04, 01:18 PM	Okay, I want to add some of this to my campagin and here is how I was going to work it: Common as English with a few phrases, etc., in conlangs floating out on the web. Any suggestions? I was thinking of using Verdurian for Gnomish . . .
okaynowa 12-06-04, 01:45 PM	Foxboy, if you're digging up conlangs to use, you might want to try Toki Pona. It's a simple but distinct one, might be good for halflings. To answer an earlier question... Scholarly Languages and Historical Documents If any language were to be called the "Common tongue of sages," it would probably be Draconic. It has the broadest familiarity among spellcasters and sages, and knowledge of it is practically required when investigating ancient history or magical phenomenon. More modern concepts like engineering and architecture are largely the province of the Common tongue (and/or Dwarven). The oldest records at the Library of Korranberg are Dhakaani scrolls, and most written records from the time of the Daelkyr invasion are likely to be in that language. Records from the time of the first Quori invasion are most likely to be in Giant, with fewer in Draconic. Elves may have oral traditions from that period, but as slaves were less likely to pass on written texts. As for the second invasion, which resulted in the conquest of Sarlona, what few records were not erased by the ideologically absolutist Quori are probably maintained by the kalashtar in their native tongue. Persistence of Language? Keep in mind that a few magic factors keep some of these "scholarly languages" from behaving exactly like Latin, or other dead languages in the real world: --The longevity of the native speakers comes first to mind. Dragons can measure their generations in millenia, and some Outsiders may technically be immortal. So, even if you find a carved tablet or "speaking crystal" in Xen'drik that's thirty thousand years old, there's someone alive who speaks and understands that language with only a slight change in accent (if any). There's a lot less debate about what somebody meant when they wrote word X (though you can always argue whether or not they were telling the truth). --Magic can also circumvent a lot of problems in translation. A simple comprehend languages spell, and those ancient tablets can be redone in the vulgar Common in hours or minutes instead of months. I can only guess what Latin would be like today, and how we'd use it, if every century or so the ancient Romans popped out of the void to reteach the basics. You'll probably see a greater instance of terms retaining the same definition over time; therefore, speaking about new phenomenon (like Lyrandar airships) in Draconic or an Outsider tongue will require more complex descriptions or compound words.
Sucros 12-06-04, 02:02 PM	That's crazily well done.
Naudachu 12-06-04, 02:08 PM	These are some really interesting and well thought out ideas. Did you have any thoughts on sentence structures for the various languages? Which ones would be more "alien" or "backward" to speakers of Common like OVS? I think this would be interesting for Daakani, to add to the cultural tensions and language barriers. (For the benefit of others: O=Object, V=Verb, S=Subject. English being SVO, for the most part. i.e. "I ate the bagel.")
DwarvinJedi 12-06-04, 05:45 PM	first thing, AWESOME :thumbsup: :clap: and, what in-game effects(or affects can't remember) would you give this, I was thinking something similar to D20 Modern, but that only applies to a Smart Hero talent, but personally I would give a minor bonus to decipher script, and I would say that once you knew a language in a certain family, speak language is a class skill only for languages of that family.
LewisLlynn 12-06-04, 06:11 PM	first thing, AWESOME :thumbsup: :clap: and, what in-game effects(or affects can't remember) would you give this, I was thinking something similar to D20 Modern, but that only applies to a Smart Hero talent, but personally I would give a minor bonus to decipher script, and I would say that once you knew a language in a certain family, speak language is a class skill only for languages of that family. Personally, I would offer a +2 bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, and other skills that rely on language to two characters speaking two different languages in the same family. Oh, and this is a great job, okaynowa.
Splendide 12-06-04, 08:03 PM	As for crossover between gnome and goblin, I would suggest that what may be goblin honorifics could be considered derogatory terms in gnomish.
Foxboy2000 12-06-04, 08:42 PM	Okay, I reviewed Toki Pona, and it just didn't gel for me as an Eberron halfling language. Because you know that HellCow's gonna show us the seamy underbelly of the Talenta halflings in a future "Dragonshards." I could, however see Toki Pona being used by the Kalashtar...
grey muse 12-07-04, 01:26 AM	I'm something of an amateur linguist myself. Nice job on the language families. :) I'm trying to come up with mechanics to represent language beyond "You don't know it/you know it perfectly." What you've got has the right flavor to it, but a basic set of rules to make it work. grey muse
okaynowa 12-07-04, 01:29 AM	Hmmm... Foxboy, I could see Toki Pona for the Kalashtar-- it's a very, very simple language with a limited vocabulary, but when the main speakers are telepathic I don't suppose you need a great variety of terms (when they can just mindlink with each other, Kalashtar/Quori speakers probably don't need much more in the way of clarification). I suppose some game mechanics would make this more relevant, wouldn't it? :) Like I said, I'm into this more than my players, so I don't want to bog a game down in debates over dialect. However, the following mechanics came quickly to mind for Intelligence or Knowledge (history or local): Recognize a non-local accent DC 5 Recognize a regional accent within your language DC 10 Recognize a language from your language family DC 10 Recognize a language from another language family DC 15 This check would allow someone who's not proficient/fluent in a language to recognize, "Hey, that ogre's speaking Risian, not Giant. What's going on?" I would also agree with DwarvinJedi on granting a +1 or +2 bonus to Decipher Script checks when dealing with languages from the same family. However I would not recommend granting bonuses to Bluff or Diplomacy checks. I speak English, which is a Germanic language, but I don't suppose a German speaker is going to be any more convinced/impressed by my speaking to him in English than he would by Mr. Pohjonen's speaking to him in Finnish. I haven't thought too much about the particulars of syntax, Naudachu, since vocabulary is more likely to interest my players, but it's definitely a point upon which I'd like to ponder. I'd guess that Draconic would be agglutinative, Gnomish could be a tonal language (changes in pitch affect meaning), Goblin lacks articles (a, an, the) and so forth.
ilnira 12-07-04, 01:47 AM	Thank you so much for contributing in your own way to the development of a game world. I'm very interested in the scholarly background of most campaign worlds; the kind of stuff that doesn't sell rpg books and thus doesn't get covered by game developers. I think it could be very interesting to create a thread of pseudo-scholarly "papers" written by us fans of Eberron. Plus, it would give all the DM's out there a wealth of non-official campaign color material. Hmmmm. Good job by the way.
Rinna 12-07-04, 10:43 AM	Ok, what is Toki Pona? People seem to know what you're talking about, but I'm a bit clueless. (As ususal...) Rinna
Foxboy2000 12-07-04, 11:21 AM	Toki Pona is a constructed language, or conlang. The best examples of conlangs that most people are familiar with are Tolkien's elven languages, Klingon, and Esperanto. You can find the existing info on Toki Pona here (http://www.tokipona.org).
Rinna 12-07-04, 11:55 AM	Cool, thanks. Rinna
Naudachu 12-07-04, 01:26 PM	Gnome tonal language, that's great. But what's agglutinative? I really think Draconic should have unique (and hard for non-dragons to pronounce) phonemes (sounds). But it seems to be possible for humanoids to speak, I guess like you said they can approximate the sounds, but its grating to dragon ears. Maybe Gnomish should have phonemes similar to burrowing animals (squeaks, teeth whistles, etc.). How about any heiroglyphs? It seems natural for ancient Dhakaani, since they've shown pyramid-esque ruins already. And maybe ancient Giant would have a different heiroglyph alphabet, like the difference between Egypt and Mayan/Aztec. Although I tend to think heiroglyphs are more of a pure language, so maybe draconic was the original...hm, but I guess the dragonmarks are probably draconic script (the least marks?).
lainofthewired 12-07-04, 01:56 PM	Gnome tonal language, that's great. But what's agglutinative? I really think Draconic should have unique (and hard for non-dragons to pronounce) phonemes (sounds). But it seems to be possible for humanoids to speak, I guess like you said they can approximate the sounds, but its grating to dragon ears. Maybe Gnomish should have phonemes similar to burrowing animals (squeaks, teeth whistles, etc.). How about any heiroglyphs? It seems natural for ancient Dhakaani, since they've shown pyramid-esque ruins already. And maybe ancient Giant would have a different heiroglyph alphabet, like the difference between Egypt and Mayan/Aztec. Although I tend to think heiroglyphs are more of a pure language, so maybe draconic was the original...hm, but I guess the dragonmarks are probably draconic script (the least marks?). Agglutinative languages use prefixes, suffixes, and sometimes infixes to modify words rather than adding other words to modify. For example (and I'm making this up, since I am not fluent in any agglutinative language), instead of saying "I am happy", an agglutinating language might just add a prefix to the word for "I" -- whole sentences might be a single word! I believe Russian and many East European languages are agglutinating. Good idea on the heiroglyphs ... I rather picture the Giants as Mayan-esque, since they've got big stone ruins in jungles ;)
Draco Paladin 12-07-04, 02:52 PM	My native language is Filipino, the Philippine national language, derived from Tagalog, a major Philippine dialect, which is in turn part of the Austronesian language family, but influenced by many languages, including Chinese, Indian, Arabic Spanish, and English. It's agglutinative. I also (obviously) speak English. And it's really interesting to see from contrast how the two languages are so different. Here's how Filipino 'agglutinates'. Let's take a simple word, 'kanta' which means 'song' or 'sing', depending on context. It's borrowed from the Spanish 'cantar', to sing, but has been thoroughly indigenized. Here are just some 'agglutinates' of the word. It's a partial list. And it's not just added syllables that change meanings. Accents and intonations modify the words as well. kantáhan (accent on 2nd syllable) - an event with singing. kantahán (accent on last syllable) - to sing to somebody/command to sing kinanta - something that was sung kinantahan - something that was sung to pinakanta - something that was asked to sing pakakantahin - something that will be asked to sing kumanta - something that sang kumakanta - something that is currently singing kakanta - something that will sing pinagkantahan - a place where something sang pinagkakantahan - a place where something is currently singing However, many Filipino speakers aren't adept at using all the variations and nuances of agglutinating the words, and often resort to adding many modifying words. But the expert speaker can say quite a lot in a single, much agglutinated word. I imagine Draconic would be the same. A mage would have a basic grasp of vocabulary and syntax, but only a true dragon would be able to infuse every word with its full potential power and meaning. I'd also imagine that specifically Draconic sounds, which most humanoids cannot speak or even hear, would be part of the agglutination of Draconic. So, imagine an ambitious young black dragon of the Chamber who whispers a short phrase to her mentor, a taciturn gold wyrm. A scholar with a passing interest in Draconic would hear her talking about how lovely the weather is, this time of year. A wizard, schooled in the Draconic, would hear her talking about how the winds are blowing rather auspiciously this first week of Dravago. A venerable poison-dusk lizardfolk druid, whose native language is based on Draconic, and is an expert speaker of old Draconic, would hear her talking about how on this first week of Dravago, the ocean-winds blowing into Khorvaire from the direction of Argonessen are strong and would be exhilirating to fly in. But only another dragon would understand that dark-scaled Ssidna is really boasting to sagacious Zolaraan about the fortune she reads in the winds: about a serendipitous conjunction of Syrania, Kythri, and Shavarath that augurs well for her plan to fly into Zilargo undetected in the first week of Dravago and to gradually attract a small cabal of followers among the agents of the Trust.
gaerfindel 12-07-04, 03:01 PM	But only another dragon would understand that dark-scaled Ssidna is really boasting to sagacious Zolaraan about the fortune she reads in the winds: about a serendipitous conjunction of Syrania, Kythri, and Shavarath that augurs well for her plan to fly into Zilargo undetected in the first week of Dravago and to gradually attract a small cabal of followers among the agents of the Trust. ::stunned silence:: Wow. That is just plain awesome.
Naudachu 12-07-04, 07:52 PM	Ah...I remember studying an African language like that. And the explanation for translation is great :eek:. So a spell (or probably just the trigger word to cast) could be a single long word in draconic (i.e. fireball -> create-sphere-of-flame-20-feet). That's pretty cool. And if these were heiroglyphs, each spell could be a collection of glyphs (one for each word) in a arranged in a square. A string of spells written in a series of squares...hm.
okaynowa 12-08-04, 01:24 AM	Outstanding example, Draco Paladin. I was going to offer an example using Turkish, but why bother now? :) That was simply brilliant. Another fun thing to toss in is vowel and consonant harmony, something that happens occasionally in agglutinative languages (where you have all those prefixes and suffixes). Vowel harmony means that when you add a -fix to a word, the vowels in the -fix change to match the other vowels in the word. For a simplified example, Turkish adds the suffix "mi" to indicate a question. Sizin mi? = Is this yours? Onun mu = Is this his? The tough part for non-native speakers at first is learning what groups of vowels are supposed to harmonize with each other. I've been thinking about writing systems a little bit too, Lain, but I don't want to offer too much of an opinion until I've had a chance to sit down and survey what alphabets supposedly go with what languages. Remember that alphabet and writing systems have some political overtones-- see when the Czech king (forget which one) switched from Cyrillic to the Latin alphabet, or when Ataturk switched Turkish from using the Ottoman-Arabic script to a modified Latin. You could see something like that with, for example, half-elves-- when they transcribe Khoravar, do they use the Common or Elven script? What does that imply? Naudachu, what if that series of glyphs in Draconic spiraled outward, like a tail, or spiraled inwards, like a maw? "Magic squares" are a long standing tradition in the real world, and a good idea. How about variant shapes? I imagine just looking at Daelkyr script could make one's brain itch.
Foxboy2000 12-08-04, 02:10 AM	Especially since all four-sided Daelkyr squares have five right angles. :D
Beleriphon 12-08-04, 06:17 AM	Another fun thing to toss in is vowel and consonant harmony, something that happens occasionally in agglutinative languages (where you have all those prefixes and suffixes). Vowel harmony means that when you add a -fix to a word, the vowels in the -fix change to match the other vowels in the word. Latin also has the particular aspect, at least most of the time. If I recall correctly there are only six exceptions to the grammar rules in Latin, and they all do the same thing. I could see Draconic being something akin to this, where once you learn the rules you know all the rules except for a few thing that only a draconic mind can actually fathom.
nyysjan 12-08-04, 06:32 AM	im certain this thread would be most usefull if i just understood a word you people are saying :D
okaynowa 12-08-04, 10:16 AM	I just started a separate thread about the writing systems-- the article I was writing seemed to go a little long for posting here. I'll put up a link if I can figure out how...
ardisian 12-08-04, 01:02 PM	I have been playing with many ideas for speak language skills. I would like to make a rule system that allows a player to have varying skill levels with a language ranging from barely speaking to being fully fluent. Perhaps the skill ranks determines basic familiarity and the DC of a check would de determined by the complexity of the language (Draconic would have high DCs). Has anyone else put together a system for this?
zerotkatama 12-08-04, 01:37 PM	Well, there are examples of Draconic in the Draconomicon... dunno if you want to go with that as a base
Megatron 12-08-04, 05:02 PM	Good job! We'd be happy to host this article on Siberys.com if you'd like.
okaynowa 12-09-04, 01:04 AM	Ardisian, the old Taladas boxed-set for Dragonlance had a chart showing the various languages of the continent connected by lines. Along each line were varying number of dots. Each dot you passed through to get to another language represented a 10% loss of comprehension. So, Taladas Elven and Kender were 80% mutually comprehensible, while Elven and Minotaur were about 50%. It's not the Skill rank system, but it seemed elegant and simple (all the players had to do was glance at the chart and know, "Nope, can't understand a word that guy's saying"). Megatron, let me polish the article up a bit and get back to you.
EvilDrPuma 12-09-04, 01:09 AM	Well, there are examples of Draconic in the Draconomicon... dunno if you want to go with that as a base It looks to me as if the Draconic of Eberron--as seen in names of dinosaurs, for instance, for which the Common/English terms are direct translations of the Draconic names--is rather different from the Draconic in the Draconomicon.