Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Galahad_Knight 10-28-05, 08:49 AM	Well, there's a whole lot of spells that can be applied to your average letter, and eberron seems to have at least some kind of postal service if it can deliver newspapers. Granted, most people would prefer a speaking Stone, but I'm sure a lot of people still prefer good old fashioned signet rings and loyal messengers. Who wants some grubby little gnome reading your secret dispatches? (After all, the telegraph didn't replace the post office int he old west, and phones, faxes and e-mails haven't replaced it yet today) So, that said, how does one ward oneself from explosive Runes, Sepia Snake Sigils, the various 'Symbol of' spells, and, of course, Fire trapped envelopes? A simple Detect Magic spell once per day on your In Box would certainly weed out many potential problems (unless you’re in the Scroll of the Month club) but a simple Magic Aura spell can mask the poisoned pen letter you’re about to get. The other solution is to have someone open and read your mail before you, but that's the same problem as having to deal with those damned shifty gnomes. So, what do you do if you're an important (and presumably wealthy) person and you wish to avoid being exploded or otherwise harmed by opening your mail? What if you're not so well off but have earned the ire of a magically talented assassin? What's to stop a mad bomber from terrorizing the populace of Sharn by mailing out various and sundry insidious inscriptions to random individuals? I decided to post this on the AKB thread too, just to see if Hellcow has thought about this.
Sereno 10-28-05, 08:55 AM	Aside from hiring an Artificer to create (and use for you) wands of Detect and Dispel Magic (possibly Eternal wands?) to check your mail for magic and then dispel it, there isn't much someone can do to protect themselves. Minor Globe would help, I don't think there's too many "put on paper" damaging-type spells that are high enough to get through. Also, remember that if someone started using magic as an open tool of assassinate (or terrorism) in Sharn they'd not only be dealing with The Watch, probably the Citadel, they'd also have the agents of The Blackened Book on them....
Galahad_Knight 10-28-05, 09:03 AM	Well, there's the aforementioned Magic Aura spell that would make the letters look perfectly harmless to anyone using Detect Magic. You could just blindly Dispel all your mail before you open it, but that would be rather expensive. Certainly a prudent short-term solution though, if you suspect someone might be sending you letterbombs. And Symbol of Death (8th elvel) comes to mind as a high level print-based spell that'd probably get past a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability. Fire Trap (as cast by a sorcer or wizard) would get past it. And, of course, the Watch can only do something *after* people's heads start exploding. By then the damage could be done. Someone could turn herralds and messengers into unwitting suicide bombers. Or worse, what if some sort of foul enchantment were worked into the printing presses of any of the major newspapers? Imagine the irony of a headline about print-bombings being used as the hook to get people to read the Explosive Rune laden article. "Extra! Extra! Exploding Headlines Terrorize Citiz--"<KABLAM> bits of newsie everywhere.
AntiSean 10-28-05, 09:50 AM	Or worse, what if some sort of foul enchantment were worked into the printing presses of any of the major newspapers? Imagine the irony of a headline about print-bombings being used as the hook to get people to read the Explosive Rune laden article. "Extra! Extra! Exploding Headlines Terrorize Citiz--"<KABLAM> bits of newsie everywhere. OK, That is sheer genius! I tip my hat to you while I try to clean the coffee out of my keyboard!
Pan_Ai_Khan 10-28-05, 10:15 AM	Couldn't you have some sort of small construct read the mail, and send the contents to you via a 'whispering wind' type spell? Protection from immediate effects (explosions etc), Symbols (you didn't see them, per se) and good old-fashioned poison inks too!
Splendide 10-28-05, 10:16 AM	So looking at this from a cynical view point, it is actually to House Sivis' advantage if such occurances of private mail exploding were widely known of, as it encourages the use of their services. Even if they were just rumours. Its a good thing they don't control any media outlets, or they could....oh. ;)
Pan_Ai_Khan 10-28-05, 10:31 AM	On a different note, why would letterbombs need to be magical? A large number of substances could be soaked into the paper of the letter, put in wax-lined envelopes, and sent to the 'bad people'. They could explode, poison, hypnotize (controlled substances, anyone?) or otherwise inconvenience the handler.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 10-28-05, 10:33 AM	I think this is pretty much exactly the sort of thing one would hire House Medani to deal with. While they might find it difficult to detect magical traps on mail if a magic aura spell is used, even with their dragonmarks, I expect they'd be highly trained in more mundane techniques to determine if it has been tampered with.
DarkWarriorKarg 10-28-05, 11:06 AM	So looking at this from a cynical view point, it is actually to House Sivis' advantage if such occurances of private mail exploding were widely known of, as it encourages the use of their services. Even if they were just rumours. Its a good thing they don't control any media outlets, or they could....oh. ;) And their Syberis grants the Symbol of Death...
Kryptonian Scion 10-28-05, 11:13 AM	I see it as unlikely, because House Sivis scribes messages sent between sending stones, and then gives them to Orien couriers to be delivered. House Orien seems to have a monopoly on the mail delivery business, and if letters start exploding they're going to halt deliveries until they figure out why. That's my personal opinion, at least. I just don't see it happening.
Tyryt 10-28-05, 12:18 PM	Mainly.. Because those things arn't cheap to make. Is someone really going to be insane enough to be spending thousands of gold in materials and all the work, just to kill peasents? Most of the "ruling elite" who this would be a potential target for are not likely to be reading their own mail anyway, do to recieving a whole heck of a lot (do any corperate CEOs actually read their mail? No, mostly, they don't even read their e-mail, secretaries do), and most of it not orth their time, being pleas for handouts (look at what lotto winners have to deal with) or "investment opportunites". Sigil of Death, is an 8th level spell. Anyone who can wield that kind of power can do more than send a booby-trapped letter, and have a much higher chance of successfully killing their target. All that being said... Delayed blast fireball and a contingency for breaking the seal/opening the letter could be nasty, though unlikely to kill anyone you wanted to hit with it, it would be a nice little "notice".
Chiyo 10-28-05, 12:19 PM	If you had reasons to suspect something like that, you could a few of those things: - Get someone else to open it for you. Good solutions may include a construct (not immune to fire but they'd be immune to poisons and in the worst case, they get disabled, not you); a summoned creature with limbs allowing it to open the mail (better than construct since you don't care what happens to the summoned creature which is temporary anyway); a charmed person (random target in town, although that's evil if you expect your mail to be trapped), a paid person (same as charmed except a bit less evil since they concented to the service). - Open your mail using a mage hand/unseen servant spell to open it from a distance. - Read second hand newspapers hehe someone has opened it before you so they either blew up already or it was safe to start with ;) - Craft Contingency against bad things happening when you open your mail - Detect Trap (maybe get item that casts it once a day) - Detect Magic. Your mail really shouldn't have any magic on it in 99% of the cases. - Use gloves and mask while opening your mail for preventing non-magical inhaled/contact poisons/diseases. Thing is most of the solution would have you be aware of the risk prior to the fact. In case of high-profile persons, it's probably a routine situation but for most others, it's not.
ChronosCrow 10-28-05, 01:07 PM	And Symbol of Death (8th elvel) comes to mind as a high level print-based spell that'd probably get past a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability. Fire Trap (as cast by a sorcer or wizard) would get past it. 8th LVL man! 8th LVL! In Eberron if some royal has a guy on them that can cast that well they're are pretty well screwed on a normal basis from your examples really. Only the crazy don't learn to trust people more and the crazy, though it's a good NPC trait, don't usually rise high enough to worry about. No NPC is living if they have a caster that strong on them unless they enlist the help of the PC's or a some other powerful organization and then learn to trust. I think the problem here is an NPC's will for privacy over their own life.
twelvedrunkenmonkeyz 10-28-05, 01:27 PM	Actually its funny because this just happened in my last game. As part of a side quest, while some of the other players where leveling up (i.e. training), one player had gotten himself into some ****. This player of mine had just happened to have fallen in with the wrong crowd in Zilargo. After commiting a few crimes (smuggling and racketeering), being the low man on the totem pole he had a run in with the Trust. After being poisoned and blackmailed into helping them get his boss, the player runs to one of his bosses cohorts and ask him what he would do in this situation, and then realises that he just told his bosses cohort. So I have him do the Sense Motive checks just to see if he notices the cohort lying that he won't tell the boss (which he failed miserably). So then he proceeds to set up his boss. So what does the boss do he sets up his peon and the Trust. I used a fire burst trap, dealling out a pretty good amount of damage. Thankfully my player was smart enough to use an action point for his Ref save when the trap opened. If you want to get creative though with mail bombs though you want to give the guy a signature trait. It can be the targets he choses, the time of day, the delivery system, the type of damage (hell nothing like putting fear in your foes then to turn them to ice, or corrode their flesh with acid to put a shock on someone). Maybe the trap isn't even a bomb type so much as a nutcracker one shot kill. Think a box enchanted with Melf's Acid arrow on every side so that way when you open it they go off. And the box is so that when you open it 3 of the panels face you (because the bottem drops out as well). That would lessen the damage to others, but pretty sure it would skill the target outright if not seriously wound him.
TwistedShadow 10-28-05, 02:43 PM	All of these arguements are great on this topic. really thinking about it in a political intrigue level. If someone could afford or had that kind of spell power. Think of the why, someone willing to do that would have some intent beyond blowing someone up. And PC's not only trying to unravel the who of such a mystery but why might make for an interesting adventure. especially since someone capable of sending sucha letter would easily have enought money to afford a relatively good squad of disposable flunkies. Plus it can make for a great reaccuring villian, that the PC's could chase for a very long time and never personally encounter as they foil some of his plans and gain the Ire of a powerful enemy who has a specific agenda that the PC's are now disrupting Even better is an implication scheme. Someone replaces a nobles normal sealing wax and signet (tuff job right there as is) with magically enchanted fakes that allow someone to scry on the signet and to freely place spells into the wax as it seal the message. The spells target whoever breaks the wax seal. Since it is in the seal of an important Noble, servants of other nobles would not open it and instead leave it as some personal correspondence for the lord to open and read. instant terror weapon, an no need for an extremely high level bad guy doing it 5th level caster for craft wondrous items. which would make them above par but not to the point that they would have easier methods available. simplest would be the Wax allows for scrying and serves as a point of origin for any spells cast on those your scrying. so much better as a tool for some agenda then a weapon in of its self.
Just another user 10-28-05, 04:08 PM	Possible solutions, Read your mail in an antimagic field. Summon a intelligent creature to read your mail. build a golem with magic immunity to open your mail Research an improved version of unseen servant, more intelligent and able to do things like read and answer letter, remind you of your appointments and generally do office work, to be your secretary.
ENHenry 10-28-05, 04:17 PM	Simple fact is, it's not going to protect everybody, just like x-raying packages doesn't stop all bombs from getting on planes. It's GOING to happen sometimes, if it's possible at all, and frankly, WHY STOP IT? It's a heck of a game plot hook! The PCs are hired by a wealthy patron because someone wants to kill them; they found out because their nosy spouse/brother/sister/assistant was reading their mail behind their back, and paid the ultimate price. :) However, it alerted the important person to the attempt on their life. Now, would the PCs please help them? It leads to an investigation following the mail courier, checking out witnesses, false drop points and aliases, finding the person responsible, and ending in a deadly booby-trapped showdown where the UNSUB... excuse me, the assassin is tracked and either captured and killed. THAT's Eberron at its finest! :)
Galahad_Knight 10-28-05, 07:17 PM	To anyone who freaked out over my daring to mention an 8th level spell in the same subject as something Eberron, it was JUST an example of a spell that could get past a lesser globe of invulnerability. I'm not saying somepne;s going to waste a ton of 8th level spells on citizens. It was just an example of how, if someone REALLY wanted to take you out, it was possible. The much more likely occurance would be fire traps or explosive runes. Relatively cheap, and even though they won;t penetrate the defenses of a wealthy and paranoid noble, they'd certainly cause mayhem elsewhere. And as to why anyone would waste money to blow innocent people up, it's called TERRORISM. The Korranberg Chronicle exposes the plot of a prominent (if somwhat mad) artificer who attempted to poison the world's supply of monkeys or somesuch. Selfsame mad artificer gets, well, mad and vows to take revenge upon the rag that slandered his good name. He spends a couple weeks and a little less than eight grand to make a cursed story plates that casts explosive runes every time it prints the article contained on the plate. (3rd level spell * 5th level caster * 2000 for use-activated, *0.75 for the 25% Artisan discount, *0.7 for the "Only works for artificers" discount, *0.5 = his cost of about 7,800. Or about 11 grand if you drop the cheesy "only works for X class" bit. I never liked that rule) Then he uses a Hat of Disguise to pose as a magewright printsetter for the Chronicle, infiltrates the paper's offices, installs the plate in the Mul Morning edition, and beats a hasty retreat. A thousand deaths later...
Wren 10-28-05, 07:34 PM	Why even use the mail? I could see a caster with enough power using invisability to sneak into a place. Finding the VIP's private guarderobe (sp?) I.E. Toilet, and placing a properly explosive and or destructive triggered spell on the seat. Talk about a scandal! How would they discribe that on the headlines? :D Thing is... they don't need to be high level. They could even be a low level artificer.
6FootGnome 10-28-05, 08:52 PM	If your letter has the phrase "I prepared explosive rui-" I'd put it down ASAP :P
MysticTheurge 10-29-05, 10:23 AM	Who wants some grubby little gnome reading your secret dispatches? This is a great discussion, but I just want to point out that the books make it pretty clear that House Sivis message station attendants are trained to not remember what they read or send, using a magical sort of compulsion or something. It protects not only the customer, but the gnomes themselves from anyone who might try to pry the information out of them. That said, a sort of "phone-tapping" thing might make for an interesting plot device.
Just another user 10-29-05, 10:38 AM	Why even use the mail? I could see a caster with enough power using invisability to sneak into a place. Finding the VIP's private guarderobe (sp?) I.E. Toilet, and placing a properly explosive and or destructive triggered spell on the seat. Talk about a scandal! How would they discribe that on the headlines? :D Thing is... they don't need to be high level. They could even be a low level artificer. Invisibility is overrated for expionage(sp) there is a simple, non magical way to neutralize almost completely invisibilty as an infilitration spell, curtains on every door, with little bells tied under them, the moment the curtains opens when noone is passing, ZAK!
Galahad_Knight 10-29-05, 06:10 PM	This is a great discussion, but I just want to point out that the books make it pretty clear that House Sivis message station attendants are trained to not remember what they read or send, using a magical sort of compulsion or something. It protects not only the customer, but the gnomes themselves from anyone who might try to pry the information out of them. Suuuuuuuuuuuure they are. Any game mechanical details on this memory erasing technique? Is there a "Sivis messenger" feat, spell or class that explains this theoretical magical memory technique? ;-) In fact, in Shadows of the Last War You can manage to weasel a little 'forgotten' info out of a sivis messenger. 'In fact, the text seems to suggestg that the whole forgetting thig is an act It may or may not be true. The conspiracy theorist in me scoffs at the idea though ;-) I know if *I* were a wealthy and powerful individual, I surw wouldn;t trust the stones with extremely important/secret messages That said, a sort of "phone-tapping" thing might make for an interesting plot device. Indeed.
Orion Polaris 10-29-05, 06:30 PM	There is a whole house practically designed to counter such things.
Galahad_Knight 10-29-05, 06:59 PM	Perhaps, but nobody's prepared for the first time. If someone tipped off the authorities (or target in the case of a single assassin) that this was going to happen, then sure, it could probably be countered. But the first tome some deranged artificer decides to get even with the world, I don't think anyone will be ready for it. We (Americans) weren't ready when a madman decided to destroy thousands of lives in an unconventional manner. We had agencies designed to stop that sort of thing, but it didn't help at the time.
Gurv 10-30-05, 09:26 AM	I think this is pretty much exactly the sort of thing one would hire House Medani to deal with. While they might find it difficult to detect magical traps on mail if a magic aura spell is used, even with their dragonmarks, I expect they'd be highly trained in more mundane techniques to determine if it has been tampered with. It seems to me that House Medani might even have a type of Siberys Shard Item designed to deal with the magic aura spell, heightening the strength of their innate detect magic enough to pierce such a deception; it should be at least effective enough to allow a Will save without resorting to identify. Considering Eberron's wide use of low-level magic, I think that magic aura would be a widespread problem, and not just in the explosive mail sense. Widespread enough that Medani would have a device specifically designed to determine whether auras were really what they seemed to be. Me? I'm an Evil DM. My bad guys would place a magic aura spell on a package designed to look like explosive runes. A magic trap spell works even better. They'll put tons of effort into dispelling all this to get inside and figure out whose after them. This should be more than long enough for the nonmagical contact poison to be effective. :evillaugh
yrogerg 10-30-05, 10:07 AM	Suuuuuuuuuuuure they are. Any game mechanical details on this memory erasing technique? Is there a "Sivis messenger" feat, spell or class that explains this theoretical magical memory technique? ;-) Actually, there is a spell. It's called Modify Memory. :P
MysticTheurge 10-30-05, 10:11 AM	Suuuuuuuuuuuure they are. Any game mechanical details on this memory erasing technique? Is there a "Sivis messenger" feat, spell or class that explains this theoretical magical memory technique? ;-) In fact, in Shadows of the Last War You can manage to weasel a little 'forgotten' info out of a sivis messenger. 'In fact, the text seems to suggestg that the whole forgetting thig is an act No you can't. Actually that's the exact part where it says "The clerk cannot reveal what the message said because House Sivis clerks are trained to transcribe and forget, for their own safety as well as for the privacy of their clients." If the PCs make a diplomacy check and bribe the attendent she will admit to remembering "who sent the message." But there's no way to get out of her what the message was. And since it's going to be pretty much an NPC-only thing, this message-then-forget thing, you don't need rules. You're the DM that's just the way it happens.
Galahad_Knight 10-30-05, 07:39 PM	No you can't. Actually that's the exact part where it says "The clerk cannot reveal what the message said because House Sivis clerks are trained to transcribe and forget, for their own safety as well as for the privacy of their clients." If the PCs make a diplomacy check and bribe the attendent she will admit to remembering "who sent the message." But there's no way to get out of her what the message was. Actually, it also says "She reluctantly admits she remembers who sent the message" then, when prompted for more information she says "It isn't really any of my business" then looks around nervously. Not "I'm sorry but there's absolutely no way for me to remember any of the message that I apparently remember." To me it implies that at least that messenger remembers more than she's supposed to and is reluctant to admit it because she;s not supposed to know. You could read it another way, but the implication was clear to me. And since it's going to be pretty much an NPC-only thing, this message-then-forget thing, you don't need rules. You're the DM that's just the way it happens. Yeah, except that the DM is supposed to play by the rules too. Players aren't likely to become Pit Fiends, so why bother making stats for them? Magewright is an NPC class, why does it have class abilities? The DM can decide what happens. In fact, DMs shouldn't even have dice. :rolleyes: Meanwhile, what if PCs are trying to get info out of a messneger? Should the DM just pull rules out of his butt to shaft his PCs? That sounds extremely unfair. What if a player wants to *be* a sivis messenger? It's an interesting background, especially if someone else is trying to get info out of her, or she's threatening to go public with some damaging information. There are no rules on this forgetting technique because it doesn't really exist. Could a DM *make* it exist, if it fits his story? Sure. Make up a feat, add Modify Memory to the spell requirements for a speaking stone, put *some* kind of mechanics into it. In the meantime, if it doesn't have rules, it doesn't exist in the *game,* because it is a *game,* not group storytime.
MysticTheurge 10-30-05, 09:58 PM	Actually, it also says "She reluctantly admits she remembers who sent the message" then, when prompted for more information she says "It isn't really any of my business" then looks around nervously. Not "I'm sorry but there's absolutely no way for me to remember any of the message that I apparently remember." To me it implies that at least that messenger remembers more than she's supposed to and is reluctant to admit it because she;s not supposed to know. You could read it another way, but the implication was clear to me. To me the text that says Sivis Messengers are trained to not remember their messages is pretty clear, no implication required. If you're upset about her "It isn't really any of my business" and nervous looking around, well she probably wasn't even supposed to tell anyone who sent the message, as that'd probably be against "code." But she can't tell the PCs any more, because she doesn't remember any more. It says right there, not in flavor text, but in DM info, something pretty damn close to rules, that "The clerk cannot reveal what the message said because House Sivis clerks are trained to transcribe and forget, for their own safety as well as for the privacy of their clients." I don't really see how that's open to interpretation. If you want to make it so they do remember something, of course you can, but as presented in official game literature they don't remember their messages. Meanwhile, what if PCs are trying to get info out of a messneger? Should the DM just pull rules out of his butt to shaft his PCs? That sounds extremely unfair. You're not pulling "rules out of your butt" in order to shaft anyone. Game literature says they don't remember, you don't have to have some kind of Crunch to support it. In the meantime, if it doesn't have rules, it doesn't exist in the *game,* because it is a *game,* not group storytime. So I guess manifest zones don't exist, because there aren't actual rules presented for them, hmm? What about the lack of healing in the Mournland? That's only mentioned in passing in the flavor text on the Mournland, there aren't rules for it. I could probably keep going, but I'm sure you get the picture. And yes, it is a game, a game where you create a story, with a group of people. So actually, it kind of seems to me like it's a game that is group storytime. But if you feel like sacrificing story for the sake of the "game," well, personally I don't know what you have left, but by all means do it. (Of course you could just play a "wargame" then instead of a "role-playing game." Maybe something like D&D Miniatures?)
ENHenry 10-31-05, 12:39 PM	Regarding House Sivis transcriptions: Remember that, in the real world, Bank Tellers are entrusted with the private details of THOUSANDS of monetary transactions per week, but they cannot by law divulge any of them, and are tested with just this sort of thing regularly. There are background checks, hidden evaluations, etc. to check this sort of thing. House Sivis may well use similar techniques, with the added bonus of magic to ensure truthfulness. 99% of correspondence in Khorvaire is not sufficiently critical to avoid the regular safeguards that Sivis puts in place, but I would imagine the Houses have their own internal courier networks to handle top secret info. How do you think the Trust knows as much as they do, hmm?
Elderich 10-31-05, 12:52 PM	Artificers have a class ability "Artificer Knowledge" to detect if an item is magical. 1st level, DC 15.
Galahad_Knight 10-31-05, 09:38 PM	I'm not saying the average person has reason to worry about sivis, I'm just saying it's *reasonable* for someone, particularly a paranoid indvidual (as described int he first post) not to trust them wiht important messages. Hell, people give me their social security numbers all the time at work (when I need to look up thier credit account information), but I'll be damned if I can remmber a single one even a minute later. But that doesn't stop some people from (quite understandable) wanting to put the numbers in themselves. However, if I *wanted* to remember someone's information, I could. Quite easily. Likewise, sivis messangers aren't just dealing with an accounnt number or some other forgettable line of information. They have to *read* or *listen* to the message, in whole, in order to send it. Without some kind of special memory technique, it may be hard to forget a particularly interesting messaage. Especially if they're transcribing an incoming message, because then they;re writing it down and (if nobody's hanging out in the station) have time to study it if they want. You may not be able to recite it word for word, but if someone sends an interesting message, you're probably going to remember it tomorow unless you make yourself forget somehow. However, the average person doesn;t have the ability to ocnsciously delete thigns from their own memory, so this extraordinary ability needs to be detailed. Hell, it wouldn;t be hard, just throw 'Modify Memory" onto the list of spells needed to make a speaking stone. Say that the stone erases the message from the scribe's mind as soon as it;s sent or transcribed. easy-peasy. But that detail was omitted. Perhaps ebcause someone thought it was more interesting to leave it open. Elderich Artificer knowledge lets the artificer tell if the item has a magic aura. The magic aura spell can specifficlaly cover an item's real magic aura and make it appear nonmagical. Since the spell is covering the item;s aura, arficier knowledge sould be ineffective, just as detect magic would. Plus, of course, if you're going to thuroughly examine a letter laced with explosive runes, you're probably going to set them off ;-) And MysticThurge Two things. 1) Manifest zones are detailed in the ECS, therefore they have rules and exist. Speciffic manifest zones (such as the one in Sharn) have speciffic rules connected to them. They don't have strict rules that govern every manifest zone, but speciffic zones have speciffic rules, and fi you wish to invent your own zone, you can invent your own rules for it. However, this magical ability to erase chunks of your own memory is only briefly mentioned, not explicitly detailed. There are no rules for it. You can *invent* rules for it, but that would be a houserule. There's nothing wrong with making houserules, but the fact you;re inventing new rules says to me that the thing you;re trying toc over didn;t exist under the rules as written. 2) Just because I use BOTH haves of the skillset (Roleplaying AND Game) doesn't mean that I value any one more or less than the other. They are equally important. I don;t sacrifice rules for story, and I don;t sacrifice story for rules. If I have to, I make up rules to support my story, or I invent story elements to support rules, but when I do it;s deliberate and (usually) public knowledge to my players. I don't merely handwave thigns away and say "I'm the DM, I decree that the rules do not apply to me." I run a fair game. I expect my players to play by the rules, and they expect me to do the same. If I *create* new rules (as I am known to do sometimes) I inform them of it. Since there are no rules for this supposed sivis ability to completely forget anything they want, I would have to *houserule* it into existance, and I would inform my players as such. However, I happen to *like* it the way it is now. I'm not sacrificing any story at all, in fact, if you want to just ignore the rules and say "Sure, fine, they automatically forget everything wiht no hope of recovery" they YOU are the one sacrificing story. Sivis messenger intercepts a juicy message between two prominent individuals and decides to go into business for himself. Sivis hires the party to eleminate this rogue messanger before the resulting scandal destroys the trust upon which the house's communications and banking empire is based. Now THAT's story, that's a whole adventure right there. A curious Sivis messenger, looking for gossip, and having a nack for puzzles, decodes a message between conspirators plotting to commit some horirble crime and has to find some way to stop them without revealing that the messages aren't as secure as people think. A paranoid criminal finds out that one of his minions sent a message through a sivis station and is afraid that some nosy gnome is onto their evil plot and decides to have him killed That's just a couple off the top of my head. I can think of DOZENS of story ideas based around the fact that sivis messengers don't really forget everything. And please don't condescend to me about "maybe I should play a wargame instead" I've been playing both for quite a long time and I don't need your help deciding which I should like best
sooperspook 11-01-05, 01:35 AM	Why doesn't the 'Postal Service' have a minor/medium magic item (or eldritch machine) that automatically detects and dispells any mail going through it? Kind of like an x-ray/sniffer machine that modern postal service have. That way most magic letter bombs are detected and defused and I'll bet anyting you want that the authorities have someone there to note the return address on the offending letter. Furthermore , if someone needs to send a legitimate magic letter/package then tey would pay extra to have the 'Magic Inside' stamp and register their name/address etc.
Wren 11-01-05, 07:40 AM	Very possibly because the act of "letter-bombing" is not that common. The poisoned blade being the surer and more trusted way. People don't like to dirty their hands and will pay someone else to do the deed. This is the reason why assassin guilds flourish in some cities.
MysticTheurge 11-01-05, 09:07 AM	However, this magical ability to erase chunks of your own memory is only briefly mentioned, not explicitly detailed. There are no rules for it. You can *invent* rules for it, but that would be a houserule. There's nothing wrong with making houserules, but the fact you;re inventing new rules says to me that the thing you;re trying toc over didn;t exist under the rules as written. I guess we just have different opinions of what a passage like the one I quoted from Shadows actually means for the game. For me, when it says in an official module that Sivis messengers don't remember their messages, that's official enough, no House Rules required. Yes the actual mechanics of it aren't presented, but that doesn't make it any less official. You seem to want mechanics for it, and that's fine. You (in a general sense) can make them up. I still wouldn't consider that a House Rule, necessarily, because you're building mechanics for something that's officially presented. 2) Just because I use BOTH haves of the skillset (Roleplaying AND Game) doesn't mean that I value any one more or less than the other. They are equally important. I don;t sacrifice rules for story, and I don;t sacrifice story for rules. If I have to, I make up rules to support my story, or I invent story elements to support rules, but when I do it;s deliberate and (usually) public knowledge to my players. I seem to have offended you, and that wasn't the intent. You suggested that the game was more important than the story, and I disagreed. Once again we're each entitled to our own opinions, but here it looks like actually do agree for the most part. Rules are important, and so is the story. I personally, feel that the story should be slightly more important, especially for the DM, but that's a personal opinion. I don't merely handwave thigns away and say "I'm the DM, I decree that the rules do not apply to me." I run a fair game. I expect my players to play by the rules, and they expect me to do the same. If I *create* new rules (as I am known to do sometimes) I inform them of it. Personally, I think there are times when telling your players everything you're doing that's outside the norm can be detrimental to the game, for instance in a mystery or when you want your players to have that *gasp* moment. I think there's a certain level of "handwaving" you can do as the DM so long as it doesn't affect your PCs to detrimentally. There's bending the rules, and there's breaking them. Since there are no rules for this supposed sivis ability to completely forget anything they want, I would have to *houserule* it into existance, and I would inform my players as such. Again this is a problem of whether the quote in SotLW is considered "rules," I see an official passage saying something very specific as "rules" enough for me. You want mechanics. I would simply say this, as there are at least two very opposite ways to interpret this passage, as we've seen, I'd suggest that, in your spirit of openess with your PCs, you tell them whichever way you decide to play it. If I was, for instance, playing a House Sivis gnome in your game and all of a sudden you said messengers were able to remember their messages, I would respond, as a player, the exact same way I did to this thread. "No, they can't!" kind of thing. You may consider making it so they can't remember as being the house rule, but others might see the exact opposite as true. I guess it's less important if you don't have anyone tied to House Sivis, but if I was playing a Sivis character and you, to my mind, changed something as important as this, I'd feel like you were arbitrarily changing things. However, I happen to *like* it the way it is now. I'm not sacrificing any story at all, in fact, if you want to just ignore the rules and say "Sure, fine, they automatically forget everything wiht no hope of recovery" they YOU are the one sacrificing story. .... plot devices That's just a couple off the top of my head. I can think of DOZENS of story ideas based around the fact that sivis messengers don't really forget everything. Yes, very cool ideas, and as I said in my first post a sort of "phone tapping" system might lead to some very interesting plots. I would do it a little differently than you, since I'm of the opinion that the information presented in SotLW is official(ly rules). I might have an artificer come up with a devices that records the message while the Sivis agent is sending it, this way there's a second record of the message even though the gnome doesn't remember it, he can view/read it later. Or something that actually even captures the gnome's memory as he records it. The Trust could have these in all kinds of Sivis Outposts, and it would not only create a great plot, but it explains why the gnomes don't remember their messages: because they're being drained into this device. Beyond that, just because the gnome doesn't remember it afterwards doesn't mean he doesn't know it while sending. Any kind of read thoughts/telepathy stuff could be used to snag the message while it's being sent. So no, neither of these choices sacrifices possible story elements. And once again I didn't mean to upset you, I was simply responding to your statement that the game isn't "group storytime." And please don't condescend to me about "maybe I should play a wargame instead" I've been playing both for quite a long time and I don't need your help deciding which I should like best I wasn't condescending actually. My interest in wargames has grown immensely lately, especially with the advent of D&D miniatures, though I still haven't gotten a chance to explore them really (D&D books are expensive). It simply seems to me that that's a game where rules are more important than story, which was the point I thought you were trying to make (something I see now was in error.) (PS. have you played D&D miniatures? How does it work out? Fun? PM me maybe?)
Galahad_Knight 11-01-05, 07:09 PM	Theurge, I'm sorry that I apparently misread your tone and the intent of your post. I've been away for a while and the boards have become less friendly than I remember, and it puts me on the defensive. In my mind, putting a skill check and DC mechanic into coercing information from a sivis mesenger tells me that it is possible for them to remember. After all, if they are trained to transcribe and forget, then how is it posisble to remember even that little bit? The fact he won't reveal more tells me that there's nothing the PCs can offer or do to get him to, essentially, throw his career away and endanger his house. Plus there's always the chance that the message wasn't interesting enough to caatch his attention. I mentioned before that yeah, chances are, an average messenger isn't going to remember 90% of the messages he transcribes in a given day (Just because of the way our minds work), but a sufficiently interesting one would likely stick in his mind. I'm not saying it's impossible for a sivis scribe to forget details of the dozens of messages he transcribes in a day, just that it's impossible to *deliberately* forget without special rules. You are right, it doesn;t pay to reveal everything to players, but I;ve found that when you are inventing new rules (particularly if they go against the existing rules) and refveal it as a surprise players tend to get upset and feel railroaded. "Nope, sorry, your spell doesn't work. It just doesn't, deal with it. I'm trying to tell a story here." So when I have surprises, I take care to either do them by the rules, or to establish earlier in the game that this is how things work. Sort of like the old saw "If yous ee a gun in act one, you know it;ll go off by thee third act." If I;m going to change the rules, I either inform them or I try to set it up, even subtly, ahead of time so, if nothing else, they can look back and go "Oooohhh!" Not knowing why the rules suddenly don;t apply, and not knowing how to deal with this new thing can be immensely frustrating for players. What I meant by "Group storytime" was a bunch of people just sitting around saying what happens instead of playing the game. Yes, the point of the game is to create a story, but if you *just* want to create a story, you may as well sit around and say what happens instead of playing a game. As far as wargames go, again I apologize for the misunderstanding. A lot of the time when you start talking abotut he game aspect of an RPG people tell you to go play a wargame instead of an RPG if all you care about is rules. It ticks me off, so again, I was on the defensive. I;ve read the rules for the D&D minis game but I never got into it. It;s a bit simple for me though it;s a decent way to kill time before the session if all you have handy are minis and dice. Sooperspook, wren is right, it probably wouldn;t be common enough to warrent such elaborate measures, at least not the first time it happens. Also the aforementioned maguc aura spell would render any 'detect and dispel' device useless unless, and a blanket dispel would be undesireable in many situations. MAgical research, scrolls, messages with illusory script, etc. Sure you could paye xtra for the "Please don;t ruin my letter" service, but a) it tips your hand if you;re sending a secret message, and b) the terrorist can also pay to have his bombs not dispelled. I'm not sayng it would be impossible to counter this kind of thing, I'm just saying it would be very hard to do, and not likely to occur unless a major incident happened
Gurv 11-01-05, 09:13 PM	I'm not saying it's impossible for a sivis scribe to forget details of the dozens of messages he transcribes in a day, just that it's impossible to *deliberately* forget without special rules. The question is, where do you draw that line? What entails a "special rule", and how much energy do you expect to devote to it? Does it need to be a feat? Or should be be giving Sivis scribes ranks in autohypnosis and setting a DC to accomplish this act? Complete with rules on what things can and cannot reverse the effects of the special rule? The point I mean to make is that I don't decide what the bartender's charisma score is in order to roleplay him as either friendly or surly. I don't roll Knowledge (local) checks to see if the bartender knows a piece of gossip that has a bearing on the plot of the game. And I don't want to feel obligated to roll to see if a messenger remembers a bit of information that would pretty much ruin that plot if it were revealed to the PCs. There are times where the players manage to do something extraordinary and cause something unexpected to happen. But there is no reason to roll to see if NPCs do unexpected things. Their behavior is in the hands of the DM just as the behavior of PCs is in the hands of the players; rolls should only be needed to determine interactions between the two. You are right, it doesn;t pay to reveal everything to players, but I;ve found that when you are inventing new rules (particularly if they go against the existing rules) and refveal it as a surprise players tend to get upset and feel railroaded. "Nope, sorry, your spell doesn't work. It just doesn't, deal with it. I'm trying to tell a story here." Just remember that when something doesn't work, it is often for a reason that the PC wouldn't know about. I mean, if you're saying magic missile doesn't work because you want the bad guy to survive, then you're a jerk. But if it doesn't work because he's an illusion, because he's in a dead magic zone, or just because you've created a creature immune to force...then there is no reason to inform the player of anything until his character has an opportunity to figure it out. So when I have surprises, I take care to either do them by the rules, or to establish earlier in the game that this is how things work. Sort of like the old saw "If yous ee a gun in act one, you know it;ll go off by thee third act." If I;m going to change the rules, I either inform them or I try to set it up, even subtly, ahead of time so, if nothing else, they can look back and go "Oooohhh!" Nothing wrong with what you say. But remember, unless the characters are members of House Sivis, there is no reason that they'd know all about the messengers forgetting things. It doesn't have to be a situation of "making up a rule on the fly" if you simply inform the players that this facet of gnomish behavior was simply unknown to them. I'm not saying that this should be a constant way of dealing with things, but if you're going to depend on published adventures, then you'll have to improvise when surprising things crop up. The trick is to act like you knew all along, and have been waiting for the right opportunity for the players to discover it. I think it's all just a matter of presentation. The players don't know anything until the DM tells them it is so. Just make sure you're consistent about it.
Galahad_Knight 11-02-05, 02:42 AM	The question is, where do you draw that line? What entails a "special rule", and how much energy do you expect to devote to it? Does it need to be a feat? Or should be be giving Sivis scribes ranks in autohypnosis and setting a DC to accomplish this act? Complete with rules on what things can and cannot reverse the effects of the special rule? If you want it to be *true* where it says "sivis scribes are trained to forget" there needs to be some kind of mechanic to back the training. What that mechanic is is up to you. If you want it to be an impenetrable wall of forgetfulness I'd suggest either a feat or adding Modify Memory to the spell requirements for speaking stones. If you want it to be a simple memory technique then autohypnosis, or maybe a special use of Concentration, or some new skill. THat makes it looser, easier for the person to make a mistake or easier for someone to pry it out of them. If that's what you want, then go for it. The exact mechanics you feel like houseruling are up to you, but as it rides now, there are no mehcanics. The point I mean to make is that I don't decide what the bartender's charisma score is in order to roleplay him as either friendly or surly. I don't roll Knowledge (local) checks to see if the bartender knows a piece of gossip that has a bearing on the plot of the game. A properly prepared GM *should* have at east a barebones stat block on any NPC of import to the game, just in case. You never know, the players could start a brawl. What's the bartender's HP? Can he use that club he keeps behind the bar? And even though you may not feel the need to roll for NPCs (I usually take 10 for NPC actions just for the sake of speed), you *should* know just how many ranks of knowledge (local) he has. Does it make sense for this Int 10, Cha 8 suds monkey to have intimate knowledge of the latest political dealings? I agree that there are times when an NPC needs to be able to do or know something in order to further the game. I won;t roll to see if the bartender knows the secret or whatever. But it should *make sense* that he knows this. ANd the best way to make it make sense is to play by the rules. If, (after the adventure is over, and I don;t need to keep any secrets), one of my players says "Ok, how exactly did he know all this?" I can just show them his statblock. "Ohhh, wow, he was a third level rogue?" It took five minutes to pull the stats out of the DMG, modify them a little to fit the role and write it all down, and it makes it look like you;re really on the ball ;-) And I don't want to feel obligated to roll to see if a messenger remembers a bit of information that would pretty much ruin that plot if it were revealed to the PCs. Then toughen the mechanics. Plus, of course, who says the guy's going tpo spill thebeans even if he remembers? It's in his, and his household's best interests to not say a word about the contents of any message. Messenger fails his 'erase memory' roll. Messenger lies, "You know very well that it is imposisble for a sivis scribe to recall the details of our communications, even if I wanted to. Now please leave my station before I call the constables." Diplomacy doesn't always work. If the PCs are high enough level to magically coerce the information then put in magical safeguards. Know your player's capabilities and plan accordingly. There are times where the players manage to do something extraordinary and cause something unexpected to happen. But there is no reason to roll to see if NPCs do unexpected things. Their behavior is in the hands of the DM just as the behavior of PCs is in the hands of the players; rolls should only be needed to determine interactions between the two. I agree. What's your point? You're right, the NPC's *behavior* is at your whym. So what if he remembers something, it's YOUR decision as to whether or not he tells them. There's also a difference between capability and behavior. You can make them behave as you wish, but you *should* make sure their capabilities fit within the confines of the game mechanics. Just remember that when something doesn't work, it is often for a reason that the PC wouldn't know about. I mean, if you're saying magic missile doesn't work because you want the bad guy to survive, then you're a jerk. But if it doesn't work because he's an illusion, because he's in a dead magic zone, or just because you've created a creature immune to force...then there is no reason to inform the player of anything until his character has an opportunity to figure it out. Of course. But once the character finds out, or after the game is over and the players ask their questions, the bottom line should be within the rules, not "Because I felt like it" I never said characters should know everything, or even that their players should (though once everythign is over and that plot device has run its course, I have no problem revealing the details since it's too late to make a difference). But I do say that the DM owes it to his players to play by the same rules he holds them to. Even if the players never know why something worked the way it did, it still should have been done by rules that they know about. It's only fair. Nothing wrong with what you say. But remember, unless the characters are members of House Sivis, there is no reason that they'd know all about the messengers forgetting things. Well, they would know that messengers are *supposed* to forget everything, just like you know Air Jordans are supposed to make you run faster and jump higher. They won't nesecarily know if it's true or how it's done, but they should know that they;re supposed to forget. Whether or not they actually *believe* the hype is up to them. But if they choose *not* to believe that, then there needs to be something in play, mechanically, to either keep them from getting the info, or let them get the info. Whether or not the character knows how to get it is another matter. Plus, of coruse, there *is* a difference between player knowledge and character knowledge. I play with mature, intelligent people, whom I trust to be good roleplayers ad keep in and out of character knowledge seperate. Not letting your players know the rules because you don;t trust them to play right once they know what they're doing seems like a bad situation. It doesn't have to be a situation of "making up a rule on the fly" if you simply inform the players that this facet of gnomish behavior was simply unknown to them. I'm not saying that this should be a constant way of dealing with things, but if you're going to depend on published adventures, then you'll have to improvise when surprising things crop up. The trick is to act like you knew all along, and have been waiting for the right opportunity for the players to discover it. It's worth noting, just in case you joined the thread late and weren;t able to catch up, that this isn't actually about SoTLW. SoTLW was merely cited by me as an example of, what *I* felt was an official source that *implied* that the memory loss thing wasn't total. This is actually just a wild tangent off of the premise that someone wouldn't trust house sivis to transcribe their vitla messages. I took the stance that it is not unreasonable for someone (Particularly a paranoid one like I cited initially) to believe that sivis messengers can coose to remember things they feel like remembering. It was not actually meant to be "What if my players want to find out about a mesaage" In the speciffic case of SoTLW, my players weren't really concerned with interrogating the scribe because they knew it would be a waste of time (because the scribe wouldn't endanger his household's empire just to tell them something they could find out for themselves). They went right to attempting to track the intruders, which took them outside so that the owl could deliver the backup message. If they had decided to interrogate the gnome, and if they managed to get info out of him, it would have just amounted to the same basic message that was delivered by the owl. It's not like there was a game breaking secret in there. But that's not the point, anyway. Like I said, this isn;t about SoTLW, the whole 'players trying ti interrogate a scribe' was just a random example of where a rule would be useful in this situation. This whole tangent is pretty much just an acedemic debate. Sorry if you didn;t realize. I think it's all just a matter of presentation. The players don't know anything until the DM tells them it is so. Just make sure you're consistent about it. As I said, I'm not looking for DMing tips. But In any event, I prefer to be consistent with my rules, rather than my excuses for not using them.
Wren 11-24-05, 03:21 PM	I just had a thought... I've just recently seen an article for a Dwarven bakery. One of the things they sold were these little cakes that look like buildings... "Town houses" was given as part of an example. I had a thought of ... "What if the little building had a fire trap placed on the front door?" :headexplo Just imagine!
SirPudding 11-29-05, 03:20 PM	One of my PC's is getting a barbed strangler (MM3) in the mail soon. Just think, a monster encounter in your own home before your morning cup o' joe. (P.S. Don't tell them)