Level 15+ in Eberron? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Level 15+ in Eberron? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Phist
10-23-05, 03:31 AM Does anyone have any suggestions for content that would fit a lv 15+ party in Eberron? The campaign isn't being played, or even being planned yet, I just want to know how feasible it is. Other than doing a round trip of all the factions and killing their leaders, what can a party that level DO?

(BTW, I know my players, by lv 15 they WILL fight like lv 20s or higher and will outstrip the gods of normal D&D in most areas)
pilias_simber
10-23-05, 03:34 AM I would suggest the Lords of Dust, the Inspired, and the Dragons of Argonessan.
Thwyvylyn
10-23-05, 05:17 AM Do like Keith Baker says and toss a 50 HD Daelkyr at them with an army of beholders and illithids to back him up. :evillaugh
polt
10-23-05, 05:36 AM Remember that Vol, the Lord of Blades, Kaius, Mordain and all them, aren't static NPCs. They are supposed to advanced to fit the players.
So you can still use them as big baddies.

Also there is Xen'Drik, Sarlona, The Demon Wastes and Frostfeel, I would place high level adventures there. Cause I think there are some grizzly beasts there.

Oh, and Khyber of course.
Dragoloth
10-23-05, 09:22 AM Three words giants of Xen'drik. Have them travel to Xen'drik and encounter an army of giants. If you have MMIII the death giant and eldritch giants are nice.
polt
10-23-05, 10:00 AM Three words giants of Xen'drik. Have them travel to Xen'drik and encounter an army of giants. If you have MMIII the death giant and eldritch giants are nice.

IIRC Keith mentioned in the AKB-thread, that you should think elemental giants (storm, earth, fire and such) when thinking of the giants of Xen'Drik.
Hellcow
10-23-05, 01:47 PM Does anyone have any suggestions for content that would fit a lv 15+ party in Eberron? ...Other than doing a round trip of all the factions and killing their leaders, what can a party that level DO?
Doing a round trip of the factions and killing their leaders still shouldn't be that simple. As others have noted, Vol and the Lord of Blades should increase in power as the players do, staying far enough ahead to remain a threat. In my mind, the Lord of Blades is Doctor Doom; as such, even if you think you've killed him, there's a good chance it was a body double or that he had some sort of back-up plan. However you look at it, the LoB won't stand still as the players rise in power; he'll get tougher too.

Meanwhile, the true leaders of some of the factions are pretty tough. The Chamber usually uses younger dragons, but if necessary great wyrms can be brought in. Any agent of the Dreaming Dark capable of performing mind seed is going to be 15th level... before adding in quori abilities. And if you check out the November issue of Dragon, you'll see that the Council of Ashtakala is nothing to sneeze at, let alone the Overlords. Basically, if your 15th-level party really fights like 20th-level, they're ready to go head to head with members of the Council of Ashtakala.

Beyond that...

As has been said, Xen'drik can hold challenges for any level. Release the vampire lords of the Qabalrin. Unleash an army of thousands of giant ghosts - an undead horde moving towards Stormreach and destroying everything in its path. Discover the secret tarasque burial grounds. And so on.
The Cults of the Dragon Below can be as dangerous as you want them to be. As I've said before, I see the daelkyr described in the ECS as being the low-end of the spectrum; named daelkyr, like Belashyrra and Orlassk, should be more on par with archfiends. Throw in mind flayers, beholders, and any aberrations you make up on your own...
Discovery of an aboleth conspiracy stretching down into the depths of the oceans. They can take it apart - but it's going to require a trip into the depts of the Thunder Sea.
Political intrigue. You may be able to kill an army. But what do you do when killing that army will start a war? In the politically charged aftermath of the Last War, there are lots of opportunities for tension and the danger or war renewed. Raw PC firepower may not be the answer: you'll need to rely on intelligence and clever use of skills and character abilities. Do the PCs ally with a specific nation or house? Or do they try to maintain balance between them?
The Trouble with Planes... So far we've had incursions from Dal Quor and Xoriat. But who's to say there won't be another planar incursion? The battles of Shavarath bleed over into reality. The forces of Mabar seek to drain the life from the universe. Fernia spreads out from its manifest zones, threatening to blanket the world in flame. You may be able to beat a pit fiend, but what do you do when the enemy is the plane of fire itself?
And that's just a few thoughts; I'm sure you can come up with others.
polt
10-23-05, 02:13 PM I think one of the biggest disadvantages with the HP system is that even if like a hundred people attack you, and they are all lvl 1, there's no way they can kill a lvl 15.

That's why I use a damage save system, and with that nobody is untouchable in Eberron.

So if you just go ahead and kill King Boranel, you are gonna face an army of angry people!

Another house rule in my game:

1. You can't kill the Lord of Blades.
2. If you do kill him, it's not really him.
Edymnion
10-23-05, 02:23 PM In my mind, the Lord of Blades is Doctor Doom; as such, even if you think you've killed him, there's a good chance it was a body double or that he had some sort of back-up plan.He's got artificer levels. He could always just whip up a scroll of Simulcram, and make copies of himself. After all, when you are an egomaniacle maniac with delusions of world conquest, who else could you trust but yourself? He just keeps making copies of himself, and sends them out to lead his interests around the continent. And every time the party fights one, they get stronger and stronger because the LoB is also advancing in level, and is therefore able to make stronger and stronger copies.

The party will never know if they actually killed the REAL LoB, or just another copy.

But just off the top of my head, for high level encounters:
The Demon Wastes - There's a whole heck of a lot of uber-nasties in there.
The Mournlands - I play the Mournlands in my games under 2 very simple houserules. One, healing of any kind is totally impossible within the limits of the Mournlands (save for vampiric like effects where you suck the hp out of another living creature). Two, the effects of the Mourning also include the entire Mournlands being under a permanent effect mechanically identical to a Dimensional Anchor spell, meaning it is impossible to teleport in and out of the Mournlands. In my game, you could drop freaking ELMINSTER into the heart of the Mournland, and chances are he would NOT make it out alive.
Khyber - Every epic level demon, devil, and other nasty is bound in Khyber, along with the evil dragon god himself. Can you say "The seals on Khyber's prison are weakening. Evil stuff is flooding out of the underground, Khyber himself might be released at this rate!"? Sure, I knew ya could :D
The Daelkyr, the Lords of Dust, and the Rakshasha (however you spell it) - These guys are uber-epic in their levels normally, and the Rashasha Lords have, last time I heard, about Divine Rank 5. Any of these guys could eat the party for breakfast.
The Dreaming Dark - An entire plane's worth of guys that could go toe to toe with everyone else in the entire campaign setting, if they so desired.
Vol, Lord of Blades, etc - As has been said, their levels are not static. Think of it more along the lines of "These are what levels these guys are when the PCs start out at level 1". They are exceptional badguys who can gain levels just as easily as the PCs can, and they will. And with the LoB's artificer levels, he can easily send wave after wave of HIMSELF after the PCs, well into Epic levels, without them ever actually seeing the real him.
The Dragons - An entire continent where the dragons have no one to challenge them, no one to destroy their young, and no adventurers running around killing them. An entire continent FULL of everything from hatchlings to Great Wyrms, and likely a fair number of Ascended Dragons with divine rank. Even Epic level characters quake in their boots when an entire wing (say a half dozen) Great Wyrms flies in out of nowhere for an attack run.And thats just what I can come up with off the top of my head. The setting was designed for low level play, but it is in no way lacking in high level challenges.I think one of the biggest disadvantages with the HP system is that even if like a hundred people attack you, and they are all lvl 1, there's no way they can kill a lvl 15.Sure they can. If nothing else, several of them grapple you, and the other hundred guys use Aid Other to make sure you DON'T break free. They do normal damage to you every round, and you die, most likely without ever really getting the chance to fight back.

Or give them all ranged weapons. One in 20 WILL hit you, every single round. Thats, on average, 5 potential crits on you, every round. Doesn't matter what your AC is, you are going to be in for some hurt.

Trust me, if you think a lvl 15 anything is safe from a mob of lvl 1 commoners, you've never been up against a DM that knew how to use a mob of commoners :D
Phist
10-23-05, 04:25 PM Wow, this is a much more feasable option than I thought. Thanks for the help.

I've already got a dynamic version of the LoBster going, he's lv 18 now, 10 levels above the party. I've also elevated him to a badass of Raven(anyone read Snow Crash?)-like proportions.
Psionycx
10-23-05, 04:38 PM Don't forget the Daughters of Sora Kell, rulers of Droam. They are all powerful classed hags (and half-fiends to boot). And as a covey they are even more formidable. Properly played and with suitable minions they could pose quite a challenge.
CTHUHLU_THE_GROOVY
10-23-05, 04:51 PM I think that the lord of blades is the ultimate villian,the possibilities for freak warforged
are limitless stretching from level one to 20. Imagine an army of enormous warforged
superwarriors and seige machines fighting the five nations,or the lords of dust.
(dreaming dark are less of a possibility,warforged don't dream,no connection to dal quor.)And yes Snowcrash is one of my favourite books and visions of dragon shard studded wireheads doing the bidding of a mad cannith heir to distort the prophecy
to an evil purpose are filling my head.
Straylight
10-23-05, 11:59 PM Trust me, if you think a lvl 15 anything is safe from a mob of lvl 1 commoners, you've never been up against a DM that knew how to use a mob of commoners :D

Aid Another is an oft-underestimated and wonderfully useful thing.

Ever seen what happens to a 15+ party when they get mobbed by polearm-wielding Kobolds?
aelryinth
10-24-05, 01:28 AM Ever seen what happens to a mob of commoners trying to grapple a 15th level fighter with great cleave and combat reflexes?

if his touch ac is sufficently high tht they need a 20 to hit him, every grapple attempt could provoke an AoO before it resolves...he just waits untili he is surrounded, and then takes the AoO, clearing the area of 8 commoners.

and again.

and again

and again.

and again.

Then on his full attack action, he's likely to eliminate another dozen or so.

Note that they don't have to HIT him...just the grapple attempt is enough to trigger the spray of blood.

and if he has whirlwind and a reach weapon, his full attack might look even nastier.

===Aelryinth
MysticTheurge
10-24-05, 08:14 AM The swarmfighting feat is good for... well swarmfighting.

Using this monster filter page (http://www.d20srd.org/filters/monster.php) and looking at monsters (from the MM only) who are CR 14 to 17, should give you some ideas. Dragons show up a lot, but so does the Aboleth Mage, the Formian Queen, a variety of the good/evil outsiders (Planetar, Astral Deva, Trumpet Archon, Marilith, Nalfeshnee, Cornugon), the Werewolf Lord, the Mummy Lord and Nightwalker and Nightwing Nightshades.

I can think of several plot ideas already just using those. Manifest Zone's of Shavrath, a Lycanthropic counter-attack against the Silver Flame, Assault on Project Leviathan (being run by our Mummy Lord of course). And if you want ideas on how to use Aboleth, consider getting (or at least flipping through) Lords of Madness.

Likewise, if you take the other two MMs and flip to the charts-by-CR you can scan for things in your party range and see what they have to offer.
Edymnion
10-24-05, 02:02 PM Ever seen what happens to a mob of commoners trying to grapple a 15th level fighter with great cleave and combat reflexes?

if his touch ac is sufficently high tht they need a 20 to hit him, every grapple attempt could provoke an AoO before it resolves...he just waits untili he is surrounded, and then takes the AoO, clearing the area of 8 commoners.Which is still easy enough to fix.
For starters, I *HIGHLY* doubt he is going to have a Touch AC of 20 or higher. That would mean he would need an insane dex score, and huge dodge bonuses to AC. Your typical fighter going the cleave route would be wearing heavy armor, which gives him a high AC, and a high flatfooted AC, his touch AC is going to be pathetic.

And even then, I could still have bare-handed commoners kill him. Yeah, he's got combat reflexes, fine. I send one or two commoners at a time at him. He can still only take as many AoO per round as he has dex mod. And again, if he's in heavy armor, he's probably go a low dex. Even if he's got an 18 though, thats still only 4 AoO. Send the commoners in two at a time, one to grapple, one to Aid Other untill he's out of AoO.

However, the opposed grapple checks are in the Fighter's favor. So, you have them make trip attacks first to knock him off his feat, which is going to severely limit his attacks, THEN Aid Other grapple him until the press kills him.

And this is all for UNARMED commoners. We want to get realistic, they're going to have torches, pitchforks (aka improvised tridents), clubs, and possibly crossbows.

High level characters are powerful. They are not invincible.Project LeviathanYeah, waking up the Tarrasque is always going to be a problem for the PCs to deal with :D
Phist
10-24-05, 06:18 PM So the fighter can't beat a mob of commoners? One of the main differences between him and the commoners is that he's the only one there who can take the sorcerer's 10d6 fireball.
twelvedrunkenmonkeyz
10-25-05, 12:47 AM Not to mention once he kills the commoners here comes the calvary, and if he attacks and kills the calvary his next target better be house Denieth and Tharashk because a bounty/contract is probably going to be issued after that.
Gurv
10-25-05, 06:16 PM Conversations about 15th level fighters and 1st level commoners are silly. It's like noting that a mob of common soldiers can't kill a Jet Li character. You can argue it until you're blue in the face, but the whole point is that the Jet Li is supposed to win. If you defeat a 15th level PC with a mob of 1st level commoners, that doesn't make you a better DM. It makes you a bad DM. See sig.

Now, on topic.

Levels 15+ are feasible in Eberron. I should know. I currently DM a group that averages at 17th level (although one just gained an LA of +4, making him essentially CR 21). Not only are they high level without breaking the game, but they're borderline evil without being disruptive. Total antiheroes.

My suggestions for such high level games is to make it clear that there are powers that can crush them like bugs. Let them read up on quori and rakshasa overlords. They should know that there are things that cannot be defeated...only thwarted and inconvenienced. In fact, make it clear that if such powers even learn of 15th level characters, they might make a point of killing them just to eliminate the competition. This way, the PCs will take steps to avoid making unseemly displays of their power, the kind that make the game seem unrealistic. They'll save it for when the bad guys are on the doorstep, and continue to deal with problems like normal people otherwise.

Now, what bad guys to use? I personally like the quori. The great thing about them is that a single quori spirit might plague them for an entire campaign. They're almost impossible to destroy, and since they can possess people and use their powers, that means that you can throw a new bad guy at them every game and not worry about what happens if they kill it. It's better than reincarnation, since the foe has new abilities all the time. Plus, these new forms come with all the resources of the host, whether it be an army, an artifact, or whatever.

The rakshasa are another option. More or less impossible to destroy, they have enough power to make sure you never get close enough to try. Remember that just because powerful rakshasa regenerate when destroyed doesn't mean that they can't also use every other trick in the book for making themselves unstoppable. And anything could be a rakshasa's plot. Currently, my players are dealing with one of the Lords of Dust who forced them to accept his aid in exchange for performing a few simple tasks...and then used that to open the door to an endless exchange of deals they don't want to enter into...but can't quite refuse. Worse, every new task he sets for them seems to be designed to further the goals of the party by leading them to wealth, fortune, and power. They hate him more and more every time they find a magic item seemingly perfect for them as they seek to do whatever he said they were supposed to be doing. They plot to destroy him, yet know that they'll never survive long enough to try without his continued aid.

A campaign I plan to run in the future will begin with epic characters who learn of the atrocities of Mordain the Fleshweaver, experiments performed on someone dear to those epic characters. After the initial game wherein they meet and seek revenge on the not-quite-epic Mordain, they will discover the repercussions of destroying the stronghold of a practitioner of the Forbidden Arts. I'm thinking of a tsochar escape, with epic-leveled leaders, the kind of invasion capable of taking over the world. Again, the problem has to be solved quietly.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Phist 10-23-05, 03:31 AM	Does anyone have any suggestions for content that would fit a lv 15+ party in Eberron? The campaign isn't being played, or even being planned yet, I just want to know how feasible it is. Other than doing a round trip of all the factions and killing their leaders, what can a party that level DO? (BTW, I know my players, by lv 15 they WILL fight like lv 20s or higher and will outstrip the gods of normal D&D in most areas)
pilias_simber 10-23-05, 03:34 AM	I would suggest the Lords of Dust, the Inspired, and the Dragons of Argonessan.
Thwyvylyn 10-23-05, 05:17 AM	Do like Keith Baker says and toss a 50 HD Daelkyr at them with an army of beholders and illithids to back him up. :evillaugh
polt 10-23-05, 05:36 AM	Remember that Vol, the Lord of Blades, Kaius, Mordain and all them, aren't static NPCs. They are supposed to advanced to fit the players. So you can still use them as big baddies. Also there is Xen'Drik, Sarlona, The Demon Wastes and Frostfeel, I would place high level adventures there. Cause I think there are some grizzly beasts there. Oh, and Khyber of course.
Dragoloth 10-23-05, 09:22 AM	Three words giants of Xen'drik. Have them travel to Xen'drik and encounter an army of giants. If you have MMIII the death giant and eldritch giants are nice.
polt 10-23-05, 10:00 AM	Three words giants of Xen'drik. Have them travel to Xen'drik and encounter an army of giants. If you have MMIII the death giant and eldritch giants are nice. IIRC Keith mentioned in the AKB-thread, that you should think elemental giants (storm, earth, fire and such) when thinking of the giants of Xen'Drik.
Hellcow 10-23-05, 01:47 PM	Does anyone have any suggestions for content that would fit a lv 15+ party in Eberron? ...Other than doing a round trip of all the factions and killing their leaders, what can a party that level DO? Doing a round trip of the factions and killing their leaders still shouldn't be that simple. As others have noted, Vol and the Lord of Blades should increase in power as the players do, staying far enough ahead to remain a threat. In my mind, the Lord of Blades is Doctor Doom; as such, even if you think you've killed him, there's a good chance it was a body double or that he had some sort of back-up plan. However you look at it, the LoB won't stand still as the players rise in power; he'll get tougher too. Meanwhile, the true leaders of some of the factions are pretty tough. The Chamber usually uses younger dragons, but if necessary great wyrms can be brought in. Any agent of the Dreaming Dark capable of performing mind seed is going to be 15th level... before adding in quori abilities. And if you check out the November issue of Dragon, you'll see that the Council of Ashtakala is nothing to sneeze at, let alone the Overlords. Basically, if your 15th-level party really fights like 20th-level, they're ready to go head to head with members of the Council of Ashtakala. Beyond that... As has been said, Xen'drik can hold challenges for any level. Release the vampire lords of the Qabalrin. Unleash an army of thousands of giant ghosts - an undead horde moving towards Stormreach and destroying everything in its path. Discover the secret tarasque burial grounds. And so on. The Cults of the Dragon Below can be as dangerous as you want them to be. As I've said before, I see the daelkyr described in the ECS as being the low-end of the spectrum; named daelkyr, like Belashyrra and Orlassk, should be more on par with archfiends. Throw in mind flayers, beholders, and any aberrations you make up on your own... Discovery of an aboleth conspiracy stretching down into the depths of the oceans. They can take it apart - but it's going to require a trip into the depts of the Thunder Sea. Political intrigue. You may be able to kill an army. But what do you do when killing that army will start a war? In the politically charged aftermath of the Last War, there are lots of opportunities for tension and the danger or war renewed. Raw PC firepower may not be the answer: you'll need to rely on intelligence and clever use of skills and character abilities. Do the PCs ally with a specific nation or house? Or do they try to maintain balance between them? The Trouble with Planes... So far we've had incursions from Dal Quor and Xoriat. But who's to say there won't be another planar incursion? The battles of Shavarath bleed over into reality. The forces of Mabar seek to drain the life from the universe. Fernia spreads out from its manifest zones, threatening to blanket the world in flame. You may be able to beat a pit fiend, but what do you do when the enemy is the plane of fire itself? And that's just a few thoughts; I'm sure you can come up with others.
polt 10-23-05, 02:13 PM	I think one of the biggest disadvantages with the HP system is that even if like a hundred people attack you, and they are all lvl 1, there's no way they can kill a lvl 15. That's why I use a damage save system, and with that nobody is untouchable in Eberron. So if you just go ahead and kill King Boranel, you are gonna face an army of angry people! Another house rule in my game: 1. You can't kill the Lord of Blades. 2. If you do kill him, it's not really him.
Edymnion 10-23-05, 02:23 PM	In my mind, the Lord of Blades is Doctor Doom; as such, even if you think you've killed him, there's a good chance it was a body double or that he had some sort of back-up plan.He's got artificer levels. He could always just whip up a scroll of Simulcram, and make copies of himself. After all, when you are an egomaniacle maniac with delusions of world conquest, who else could you trust but yourself? He just keeps making copies of himself, and sends them out to lead his interests around the continent. And every time the party fights one, they get stronger and stronger because the LoB is also advancing in level, and is therefore able to make stronger and stronger copies. The party will never know if they actually killed the REAL LoB, or just another copy. But just off the top of my head, for high level encounters: The Demon Wastes - There's a whole heck of a lot of uber-nasties in there. The Mournlands - I play the Mournlands in my games under 2 very simple houserules. One, healing of any kind is totally impossible within the limits of the Mournlands (save for vampiric like effects where you suck the hp out of another living creature). Two, the effects of the Mourning also include the entire Mournlands being under a permanent effect mechanically identical to a Dimensional Anchor spell, meaning it is impossible to teleport in and out of the Mournlands. In my game, you could drop freaking ELMINSTER into the heart of the Mournland, and chances are he would NOT make it out alive. Khyber - Every epic level demon, devil, and other nasty is bound in Khyber, along with the evil dragon god himself. Can you say "The seals on Khyber's prison are weakening. Evil stuff is flooding out of the underground, Khyber himself might be released at this rate!"? Sure, I knew ya could :D The Daelkyr, the Lords of Dust, and the Rakshasha (however you spell it) - These guys are uber-epic in their levels normally, and the Rashasha Lords have, last time I heard, about Divine Rank 5. Any of these guys could eat the party for breakfast. The Dreaming Dark - An entire plane's worth of guys that could go toe to toe with everyone else in the entire campaign setting, if they so desired. Vol, Lord of Blades, etc - As has been said, their levels are not static. Think of it more along the lines of "These are what levels these guys are when the PCs start out at level 1". They are exceptional badguys who can gain levels just as easily as the PCs can, and they will. And with the LoB's artificer levels, he can easily send wave after wave of HIMSELF after the PCs, well into Epic levels, without them ever actually seeing the real him. The Dragons - An entire continent where the dragons have no one to challenge them, no one to destroy their young, and no adventurers running around killing them. An entire continent FULL of everything from hatchlings to Great Wyrms, and likely a fair number of Ascended Dragons with divine rank. Even Epic level characters quake in their boots when an entire wing (say a half dozen) Great Wyrms flies in out of nowhere for an attack run.And thats just what I can come up with off the top of my head. The setting was designed for low level play, but it is in no way lacking in high level challenges.I think one of the biggest disadvantages with the HP system is that even if like a hundred people attack you, and they are all lvl 1, there's no way they can kill a lvl 15.Sure they can. If nothing else, several of them grapple you, and the other hundred guys use Aid Other to make sure you DON'T break free. They do normal damage to you every round, and you die, most likely without ever really getting the chance to fight back. Or give them all ranged weapons. One in 20 WILL hit you, every single round. Thats, on average, 5 potential crits on you, every round. Doesn't matter what your AC is, you are going to be in for some hurt. Trust me, if you think a lvl 15 anything is safe from a mob of lvl 1 commoners, you've never been up against a DM that knew how to use a mob of commoners :D
Phist 10-23-05, 04:25 PM	Wow, this is a much more feasable option than I thought. Thanks for the help. I've already got a dynamic version of the LoBster going, he's lv 18 now, 10 levels above the party. I've also elevated him to a badass of Raven(anyone read Snow Crash?)-like proportions.
Psionycx 10-23-05, 04:38 PM	Don't forget the Daughters of Sora Kell, rulers of Droam. They are all powerful classed hags (and half-fiends to boot). And as a covey they are even more formidable. Properly played and with suitable minions they could pose quite a challenge.
CTHUHLU_THE_GROOVY 10-23-05, 04:51 PM	I think that the lord of blades is the ultimate villian,the possibilities for freak warforged are limitless stretching from level one to 20. Imagine an army of enormous warforged superwarriors and seige machines fighting the five nations,or the lords of dust. (dreaming dark are less of a possibility,warforged don't dream,no connection to dal quor.)And yes Snowcrash is one of my favourite books and visions of dragon shard studded wireheads doing the bidding of a mad cannith heir to distort the prophecy to an evil purpose are filling my head.
Straylight 10-23-05, 11:59 PM	Trust me, if you think a lvl 15 anything is safe from a mob of lvl 1 commoners, you've never been up against a DM that knew how to use a mob of commoners :D Aid Another is an oft-underestimated and wonderfully useful thing. Ever seen what happens to a 15+ party when they get mobbed by polearm-wielding Kobolds?
aelryinth 10-24-05, 01:28 AM	Ever seen what happens to a mob of commoners trying to grapple a 15th level fighter with great cleave and combat reflexes? if his touch ac is sufficently high tht they need a 20 to hit him, every grapple attempt could provoke an AoO before it resolves...he just waits untili he is surrounded, and then takes the AoO, clearing the area of 8 commoners. and again. and again and again. and again. Then on his full attack action, he's likely to eliminate another dozen or so. Note that they don't have to HIT him...just the grapple attempt is enough to trigger the spray of blood. and if he has whirlwind and a reach weapon, his full attack might look even nastier. ===Aelryinth
MysticTheurge 10-24-05, 08:14 AM	The swarmfighting feat is good for... well swarmfighting. Using this monster filter page (http://www.d20srd.org/filters/monster.php) and looking at monsters (from the MM only) who are CR 14 to 17, should give you some ideas. Dragons show up a lot, but so does the Aboleth Mage, the Formian Queen, a variety of the good/evil outsiders (Planetar, Astral Deva, Trumpet Archon, Marilith, Nalfeshnee, Cornugon), the Werewolf Lord, the Mummy Lord and Nightwalker and Nightwing Nightshades. I can think of several plot ideas already just using those. Manifest Zone's of Shavrath, a Lycanthropic counter-attack against the Silver Flame, Assault on Project Leviathan (being run by our Mummy Lord of course). And if you want ideas on how to use Aboleth, consider getting (or at least flipping through) Lords of Madness. Likewise, if you take the other two MMs and flip to the charts-by-CR you can scan for things in your party range and see what they have to offer.
Edymnion 10-24-05, 02:02 PM	Ever seen what happens to a mob of commoners trying to grapple a 15th level fighter with great cleave and combat reflexes? if his touch ac is sufficently high tht they need a 20 to hit him, every grapple attempt could provoke an AoO before it resolves...he just waits untili he is surrounded, and then takes the AoO, clearing the area of 8 commoners.Which is still easy enough to fix. For starters, I HIGHLY doubt he is going to have a Touch AC of 20 or higher. That would mean he would need an insane dex score, and huge dodge bonuses to AC. Your typical fighter going the cleave route would be wearing heavy armor, which gives him a high AC, and a high flatfooted AC, his touch AC is going to be pathetic. And even then, I could still have bare-handed commoners kill him. Yeah, he's got combat reflexes, fine. I send one or two commoners at a time at him. He can still only take as many AoO per round as he has dex mod. And again, if he's in heavy armor, he's probably go a low dex. Even if he's got an 18 though, thats still only 4 AoO. Send the commoners in two at a time, one to grapple, one to Aid Other untill he's out of AoO. However, the opposed grapple checks are in the Fighter's favor. So, you have them make trip attacks first to knock him off his feat, which is going to severely limit his attacks, THEN Aid Other grapple him until the press kills him. And this is all for UNARMED commoners. We want to get realistic, they're going to have torches, pitchforks (aka improvised tridents), clubs, and possibly crossbows. High level characters are powerful. They are not invincible.Project LeviathanYeah, waking up the Tarrasque is always going to be a problem for the PCs to deal with :D
Phist 10-24-05, 06:18 PM	So the fighter can't beat a mob of commoners? One of the main differences between him and the commoners is that he's the only one there who can take the sorcerer's 10d6 fireball.
twelvedrunkenmonkeyz 10-25-05, 12:47 AM	Not to mention once he kills the commoners here comes the calvary, and if he attacks and kills the calvary his next target better be house Denieth and Tharashk because a bounty/contract is probably going to be issued after that.
Gurv 10-25-05, 06:16 PM	Conversations about 15th level fighters and 1st level commoners are silly. It's like noting that a mob of common soldiers can't kill a Jet Li character. You can argue it until you're blue in the face, but the whole point is that the Jet Li is supposed to win. If you defeat a 15th level PC with a mob of 1st level commoners, that doesn't make you a better DM. It makes you a bad DM. See sig. Now, on topic. Levels 15+ are feasible in Eberron. I should know. I currently DM a group that averages at 17th level (although one just gained an LA of +4, making him essentially CR 21). Not only are they high level without breaking the game, but they're borderline evil without being disruptive. Total antiheroes. My suggestions for such high level games is to make it clear that there are powers that can crush them like bugs. Let them read up on quori and rakshasa overlords. They should know that there are things that cannot be defeated...only thwarted and inconvenienced. In fact, make it clear that if such powers even learn of 15th level characters, they might make a point of killing them just to eliminate the competition. This way, the PCs will take steps to avoid making unseemly displays of their power, the kind that make the game seem unrealistic. They'll save it for when the bad guys are on the doorstep, and continue to deal with problems like normal people otherwise. Now, what bad guys to use? I personally like the quori. The great thing about them is that a single quori spirit might plague them for an entire campaign. They're almost impossible to destroy, and since they can possess people and use their powers, that means that you can throw a new bad guy at them every game and not worry about what happens if they kill it. It's better than reincarnation, since the foe has new abilities all the time. Plus, these new forms come with all the resources of the host, whether it be an army, an artifact, or whatever. The rakshasa are another option. More or less impossible to destroy, they have enough power to make sure you never get close enough to try. Remember that just because powerful rakshasa regenerate when destroyed doesn't mean that they can't also use every other trick in the book for making themselves unstoppable. And anything could be a rakshasa's plot. Currently, my players are dealing with one of the Lords of Dust who forced them to accept his aid in exchange for performing a few simple tasks...and then used that to open the door to an endless exchange of deals they don't want to enter into...but can't quite refuse. Worse, every new task he sets for them seems to be designed to further the goals of the party by leading them to wealth, fortune, and power. They hate him more and more every time they find a magic item seemingly perfect for them as they seek to do whatever he said they were supposed to be doing. They plot to destroy him, yet know that they'll never survive long enough to try without his continued aid. A campaign I plan to run in the future will begin with epic characters who learn of the atrocities of Mordain the Fleshweaver, experiments performed on someone dear to those epic characters. After the initial game wherein they meet and seek revenge on the not-quite-epic Mordain, they will discover the repercussions of destroying the stronghold of a practitioner of the Forbidden Arts. I'm thinking of a tsochar escape, with epic-leveled leaders, the kind of invasion capable of taking over the world. Again, the problem has to be solved quietly.