Post/Author/DateTime	Post
6FootGnome 08-27-05, 05:51 AM	Ok so the head of the l33t warriors of Breland is a lv6 paladin, yet in 5 nations, i saw at least 3 +lv8 wizards, and in one thier descriptions it said all his assitants were of a HIGHER level! Fut the wuck?! :confused:
DarkWarriorKarg 08-27-05, 06:45 AM	1- Level does not necessarily equate to authority. The Paladin basically sits around all day & does paper work. 2- Paladin = warrior... wizard != warrior...
Cloud Divider 08-27-05, 10:04 AM	By "l33t warriors of Breland" are you meaning the King's Swords (and/or the rest of the King's Citadel, including the Dark Lanterns)? Or a different group? If it's the King's Citadel that actually begs another continuity question. Both the Citadel Elite and Dark Lantern PrC's require no religious allegiance, because loyalty to the crown must surpass all else. Yes, I understand that the listed Pal6 isn't a member of either PrC. But the REASON behind that requirement (no religious allegiance) should also be reflected in the setting background. I mean, we wouldn't want our Paladin Knights General suddenly decide that he's taking orders from Flamekeep, because there was a holy decree from the Keeper of the Flame? That said, I personally think that restriction is a bit troublesome in general. Does that mean that any (ranking) member of the Citadel must be totally nonreligious? A guy who grew up in a family that worshipped the Sovereigns, is he excluded? I can certainly believe that a member of the Citadel should not be a member of the church hierarchy (ie the Knights General shouldn't be in the Archierophant's command chain as anything but one of the flock). Granted, in typical D&D, usually faith doesn't matter to anyone except someone with Cleric levels. But I think there's entirely too much really interesting potential to waste, in having faith be important to non-Casters. Eberron even makes the blanket statement that the clergy often consists of non-spellcaster members of the faithful.
Streamweaver 08-27-05, 10:10 AM	Ok so the head of the l33t warriors of Breland is a lv6 paladin, yet in 5 nations, i saw at least 3 +lv8 wizards, and in one thier descriptions it said all his assitants were of a HIGHER level! Fut the wuck?! :confused: Well there's obviously been a lot of discussion here about how levels "should" work in Eberron. WoTC seems to have a bit of a split personality when it comes to the issue so the material itself seems to be inconsistant when it comes to the general powerlevel of the world. This is really only a problem if you are operating on the material alone, thankfully that isn't real tabletop gaming. The GM of any game is gonig to have to sit down and decide what kind of scale and power level they want and adjust the NPCs and the world accordingly I think there is a strength in presenting many NPCs as low level in the material though as it's a bit easier to adjust player thinking upwards in terms of power levels than it is downwards.
Roxlimn 08-27-05, 10:36 AM	The 5 Nations and other works not involving Keith Baker tend to have NPCs in the Faerunian or at least at the Greyhawk level of powers. I never cared much for every last priest of Cuthbert being able to make miracles and wear armor, and I find Faerun's plethora of PC classed nobodies annoying. I think people who author those settings can use a read of the useful portion of the DMG that details NPC classes. It's not 2e or 1e anymore. No more Ranger children, please! The class levels in 5N is inconsistent with the class levels in ECS. The listed levels for Prince Adal direct contradict each other. I would go for the ECS setting, but that's just me.
camble 08-27-05, 01:36 PM	There is a lot of inconsistance in the setting pertaining to levels especially when you look at the prestige classes and there roles in say the last war or as the nations stand now and the number of reservists floating around. I usually don't worry about it but I can see where it could get annoying for people that are trying to keep there game strictly consistant with what is outlined in the ECS.
MysticTheurge 08-27-05, 02:37 PM	Eberron isn't a low level setting. It's a setting that needs heroes. This means that you can have NPCs that are quite high level but they're not really going to be the ones that go out and save people/the world/whatever. The point that Keith tries to make in the ECS is that your NPCs shouldn't overshadow your PCs. This doesn't mean there shouldn't be high level mentors, high level opponents, or high level prestige classes. It means high level people should be more concerned with themselves than with whatever the PCs are doing.
Roxlimn 08-27-05, 03:28 PM	Not high level, no. However, I would really like to see this be implemented more thoroughly in future releases: Player characters are also distinguished by their PC classes. Most nobles are aristocrats, not fighters and wizards. The typical soldier uses warrior levels, and a common priest is an expert or adept, not a cleric. The PC classes are more versatile and powerful than NPC classes: a wizard is far superior to a magewright, and a cleric outstrips an adept both in battle and in the ability to use divine magic. As a result, even a low-level character with a PC class is a remarkable individual. This does not mean that the characters are the only fighters and wizards in the world. Just because the bulk of the population uses NPC classes doesn't mean that a DM has to use NPC classes for all of the people who challenge or oppose the party. Elite forces such as the warforged troops produced in the Last War, the artificers of House Cannith, or the assassins of House Thuranni can use PC classes, and there certainly are clerics in the Church of the Silver Flame in addition to experts and adepts. These people are remarkable individuals in their own right, and even at low levels they command respect from those around them. In a world where the average soldier is a 2nd-level warrior, a 5th-level fighter can be an important individual. This is the case in Eberron. Prince Adal doesn't need to be an 11th level PC competitive powerhouse to be important. Just the fact that he's actually got 6 PC class levels is exceptional enough. I can understand if a few personalities described in a supplement contain all PC class levels, and even high level PC class levels, but when almost all of the NPCs in a supplement have PC class levels, and higher than the ones detailed in Eberron, you have to wonder what's going on. It's clear from the Dragonshard that PC class levels are reflections of exceptional capability in PCs and NPCs alike and I would like it if supplement authors would familiarize themselves enough with the setting they're writing for to take note of this. PC heroic stature doesn't depends solely on the fact that everybody's going to have vested interests, though that's an important concept, too. As for high level people, I believe that high level people in Eberron, especially those with high levels in PC classes, should be doing high level things. They shouldn't be ferrying people around in rowboats or jockeying for position in a mundane human court with all the other aristocrats. Margana is a typical member of the Arcane Congress and she's 11th level! How many of these guys are up there, anyway, and why haven't they obliterated the face of Khorvaire yet? In fact, we know for sure that most of the researchers are higher level than Wizard 8, because that's the Wizard level of Adal in T5N! Indeed, just to have a chance of surviving many of the challenges apparently common in the greater tower, most Congress members would have to rival the Red Wizards themselves in power. Lord Darro himself is level 12 with caster level 11. He should be taking his somewhat less than 400 (!!!) 5th to 7th level Wizards and Arcanes from the Knights Phantoms, and who knows how many more such characters in the Knights Arcane and lay waste to the countryside of Thrane. I just don't like it. It's too much magical power, even for Aundair. Just the thought of some 100 or so 15th - 18th level Wizards in Arcanix makes me think that even Faerun is sensible. At least they only have a few 18th level Wizards in one place.
Edymnion 08-27-05, 04:36 PM	Ok so the head of the l33t warriors of Breland is a lv6 paladin, yet in 5 nations, i saw at least 3 +lv8 wizards, and in one thier descriptions it said all his assitants were of a HIGHER level! Fut the wuck?! :confused:President Bush vs. a U.S. Marine in a fight, who do you think is going to win? The Pope versus a professional wrestler? Your boss versus the body builder in the next cubicle? Just because you have a place of importance does not mean you have to be a high level. In the real world, many people who are in positions of leadership would be very low level. You don't have to be a great fighter, sneak, or thinker to lead. You gather other people around you to do that for you.
6FootGnome 08-27-05, 04:47 PM	to be honest, its really just aundir that annoys me. IF they have that many high level wizard, they should have pwned the other 4 nations
Edymnion 08-27-05, 04:53 PM	to be honest, its really just aundir that annoys me. IF they have that many high level wizard, they should have pwned the other 4 nationsUm, they basically did. Don't forget that Aundair is small, with a low population, a small military, etc. There is no way it could have been a major contender to anybody else in the war, and yet it managed to go head to head and hold it's ground against the giants of Breland, Karrnath, and Thrane. Nations with huge populations, giant armies, warforged titans, silver marauders, the whole nine yards. Aundair didn't hold it's own because of the military, it was able to keep itself from being overrun as soon as the war began because of those strong spellcasters. It took all that spellcasting might just to keep themselves alive.
camble 08-27-05, 06:33 PM	Look at the heir of sybery class it is not even possible to manifest a mark unitl 14th level then. It is amusing to me how the flavor text makes it sound like the mark appears at random when it in fact only appears on the most talented of individuals. Especially when you figure that the cap on most npc's are no higher then 11th maybe 12th and that includes npc classes. So a Heir of Sibery should be pretty impossible to find. Like maybe one person in a generation if that
Leagle 08-27-05, 06:53 PM	The Pope versus a professional wrestler? Your boss versus the body builder in the next cubicle? Well, it depends on the ruleset and setting. They may be mid-high level experts/talker type classes, while the body builder is a low level tough hero. I agree with Edymnion on Aundair though. They have proportionally quite a few magic users, whose tradition of learning and good teaching institution, (and likely a fair deal of combat in many cases) have kept them honed and competent across the generations. Then of course there is suspension of belief to consider. You can accept a group of 1st level warriors - their abilities are abstract, but the arcane congress would be a joke if all most of their members could do was cast magic missile and tenser's floating disk once each. And don't forget, the Pope has the wrath of god and powerful equiptment on his side. http://chugworth.com/comic.php?id=173
MysticTheurge 08-27-05, 07:19 PM	to be honest, its really just aundir that annoys me. IF they have that many high level wizard, they should have pwned the other 4 nations Keep in mind that who's alive today is very dependent on who managed to survive. Just because Breland and Karnnath don't have a smorgasboard of high level wizards present-day doesn't mean they didn't have battalions of them during the Last War.
Majorafire77 08-27-05, 07:36 PM	Margana is a typical member of the Arcane Congress and she's 11th level! How many of these guys are up there, anyway, and why haven't they obliterated the face of Khorvaire yet? In fact, we know for sure that most of the researchers are higher level than Wizard 8, because that's the Wizard level of Adal in T5N! Indeed, just to have a chance of surviving many of the challenges apparently common in the greater tower, most Congress members would have to rival the Red Wizards themselves in power. Lord Darro himself is level 12 with caster level 11. He should be taking his somewhat less than 400 (!!!) 5th to 7th level Wizards and Arcanes from the Knights Phantoms, and who knows how many more such characters in the Knights Arcane and lay waste to the countryside of Thrane. I just don't like it. It's too much magical power, even for Aundair. Just the thought of some 100 or so 15th - 18th level Wizards in Arcanix makes me think that even Faerun is sensible. At least they only have a few 18th level Wizards in one place. Yes. Margana is a typical member of the Arcane Congress. As for the Last War comment, how many wizards are there? 800 people in the village of Arcanix including students (says the ECS). So you could say that during the Last War, there might've been 1000 or so. That's really not that many, because when you think about it, at least some of Aundair's army would need to be waging war in other parts of the land if they wanted any hope of winning the war, leaving the other part behind. Add that to the fact that two-on-one battles were pretty common in the Last War, and you'd realize that Aundair wouldn't win just because of its wizards. As was mentioned before, they needed them to stay alive. When Brelish and Cyran armies come knocking on your door, you need elite troops like them when your population is that small.
Giarc 08-27-05, 10:11 PM	Perhaps some high-level people were forced to endure things that gave them experience (levels), but they have no desire to continue that life. Not everyone with levels is going to want to use them, their motivations must be taken into account. I thought of Captain Winters from the mini-series A Band of Brothers. All he wanted to do, after he completed his duty, was to go home, get married, have kids, and grow old. I could see this for many veterans of the Last War.
Edymnion 08-27-05, 10:34 PM	I thought of Captain Winters from the mini-series A Band of Brothers. All he wanted to do, after he completed his duty, was to go home, get married, have kids, and grow old.Actually, that was the driving goal of one of my characters. His goal in life was to get married and have so many children he couldn't count them. But having that many kids is expensive, so adventuring time! :D
anarco_rata 08-28-05, 12:13 AM	Actually, that was the driving goal of one of my characters. His goal in life was to get married and have so many children he couldn't count them. But having that many kids is expensive, so adventuring time! :D but what about the wife? :D Come on guys, why are thes kinds of threads so popular nowadays? if you don't like the levels listed in any book, don't use them, make your own levels, your own people or whatever, nobody is more right about your adventure than yourselves! If you want lvl 20 peasants then go right ahead and let your PC get killed by a guy with a fork.
Roxlimn 09-03-05, 08:53 AM	Mystic Theurge: Keep in mind that who's alive today is very dependent on who managed to survive. Just because Breland and Karnnath don't have a smorgasboard of high level wizards present-day doesn't mean they didn't have battalions of them during the Last War. Battalions of 11th level or higher Wizards waging open war would alter the geography of the continent itself. Since that did not happen, it seems safe to presume that such open concentrations of raw power did not exist. I would argue that this level of NPC power would be appropriate for the Dhakaani Empire in its prime, except that they would have Warrior type classes, not Arcanes. Similarly, the Giant civilization, being that it severed planar connections, made relics, and fought the Daelkyr for as long as they did, they could have those kinds of levels. However, Galifar as it was, I don't think that it would have been appropriate. Majorafire77: Yes. Margana is a typical member of the Arcane Congress. As for the Last War comment, how many wizards are there? 800 people in the village of Arcanix including students (says the ECS). So you could say that during the Last War, there might've been 1000 or so. That's really not that many, because when you think about it, at least some of Aundair's army would need to be waging war in other parts of the land if they wanted any hope of winning the war, leaving the other part behind. Add that to the fact that two-on-one battles were pretty common in the Last War, and you'd realize that Aundair wouldn't win just because of its wizards. As was mentioned before, they needed them to stay alive. When Brelish and Cyran armies come knocking on your door, you need elite troops like them when your population is that small. Wizardly power is exponential, and Aundair has resources other than its Wizards. Its citizenry are gung ho about fighting for their land, giving them exceptional morale. Furthermore, Aundair used to also include the Eldeen Reaches, making it a veritable powerhouse even without its Wizards. Have you any idea of what kind of devastation 800 11th level Wizards can cause, let alone 1000? Fabricate alone would mean that Aundair could probably match whatever mundane industry Breland would have in its factories. Heck, fabricate and 800 11th level Wizards could give Cannith a run for its money. Let's run down a few spells that can allow 800 11th level Wizards to wreak havoc across the Khorvairian continent: Cloudkill: 20 foot radius, 20 feet high, moves. This spell alone can allow 11th level Mages to wreak havoc with any enemy formation. Think of it like a tank. The Cloudkill moves forward, scattering or killing almost every enemy soldier in its path. It punches a hole through the lines, your troops move in. Simple. Planar Binding, Lesser: Allows you to summon a CR 6 (!!!) extraplanar for an extended time for battle. Examples include average Xorns, Chain Devils, Bralani and the like. It would take 4 NPCs with 6 PC levels to deal with the threat decisively, and that's only for 1 spell for 1 11th level Wizard. Teleport: Transport a kill group into almost any location you can think of. Extract agents using the same method. There are many, many, many ways to get use out of this spell. Imgaine 800 people being able to do it on a daily basis. Walls: Instantly cut off enemy troops from reinforcement. Manipulate the battle lines with unexpected abruptness. Magic Jar: infiltrate enemy lines using this, then kill the commander in his sleep. Transmute Rock to Mud: Need more explanations? Dominate Person? Telekinesis? 5th level spells are some of the most powerful spells there are in the book, and 9th level and above casters are greatly more powerful than those of 8th level and below. In fact, you could say that 9th level is just an important a power banchmark for Arcanes as 5th level when Wizards first acquire 3rd level spells. Aundair's population is small now, but I imagine that it was somewhat larger when they still had the Reaches, and there's that population of skilled Shifters they can use, especially against Thrane. If Aundair had that many Wizards and it really wanted to concentrate on one enemy, they can simply Wall of Stone off one border and just allow that to stand as defense. Even if the Brelish Army could move through, their retreat would be cut off by the Wall. This would not work in reverse, because the Aundairian Wizards could simply Transmute the barrier back into Mud and cross within a matter of days. About the only way to counteract this or present a similar counter-threat would be to have similar numbers of Wizards of similar level, or at least a significant number of slightly lower level Wizards. I do not believe that thousands of 7th level or lower Wizards is appropriate for any of the Five Nations, even Breland. It would take these and Breland's other advantages to counteract a threat as strong as a thousand 11th level Wizards. A single 11th level Wizard by himself is strong enough to hold off a small army. An army of such persons would so potent it would throw off all the levels the ECS and the Dragonshards propose, and that's exactly what I find wrong with it. I'm not against high level Aundairian Wizards. I'm not even Aundair having the most Wizards in the Five Nations, and high level at that. However, 800+ 11th level Wizards seems to be pushing that envelope more than I think is appropriate. anarco rata: Come on guys, why are thes kinds of threads so popular nowadays? if you don't like the levels listed in any book, don't use them, make your own levels, your own people or whatever, nobody is more right about your adventure than yourselves! If you want lvl 20 peasants then go right ahead and let your PC get killed by a guy with a fork. If I wanted to make my own levels and come up with my own ideas, then I wouldn't be buying a supplement, now, would I? Definitely not for the stat blocks, in any case, and that makes it a weaker product, at least as far as I'm concerned.
MysticTheurge 09-03-05, 09:57 AM	Have you any idea of what kind of devastation 800 11th level Wizards can cause, let alone 1000? There are 800 people in Arcanix (including students, as was stated), not 800 members of the Arcane Congress, which, IIRC, is what the 11th level wizard is a "typical member" of. Without question there are a larger number of lower level wizards at Arcanix and if I had to guess there's a portion of the population who are magewrights or possibly even non-casters (relatives of wizards, children, servants [cause not everyone can get a permanent unseen servant ;)]).
Roxlimn 09-03-05, 10:50 AM	Well, if we go by T5N, there were at least 400 5th level Arcane casting ability persons in the Knights Phantom during the Last War, and they weren't all that distinguishable or distinct from the presumably larger umbrella organization the Knights Arcane, which is still less powerful magically than the Arcane Congress. These specialized portions of the Knights Arcane called the Knights Phantom are in no way noted to be elite members of an elite membership. Indeed, they are supposedly "rare enough that Aundairians tend to group them with the Knights Arcane in general." without being powerful enough to relation to other Knights Arcane soldiers that they would be noteworthy. Let's downgrade "rare" to "uncommon" and say that the Knights Arcane are mostly made up of about 6th level soldier/mages of similar arcane power and that the Knights Phantom constituted about a fifth of this. That would mean that the Knights Arcane numbered in the thousands, or about 2000 arcanes of at least 5th level casting ability, not to mention adjunct Magewrights and other such characters. Moreover, according to T5N, the 800 people of Arcanix are not part of the Arcane Congress nor are privy to the Towers. If the Arcane Congress provides Adal with enough power to match the Knights Arcane, and if the typical member is about 11th level, then positing about 800 members or so isn't entirely inappropriate for the supporting data. IMO, it would be consistent with the vision provided for in T5N, even if it's contradictory, IMO to the vision of ECSB. 2000+ arcanes of 5th level Wizard casting ability or higher is a mighty bulwark on which to build a powerful army. The Knights Arcane, in themselves would have been sufficient to hold off combined nations provided that they were supported by even a small non-arcane military. Adding the Arcane Congress silliness of top of this is just overkill. Not even the Flaming Fist mercenary group in Baldur's Gate are this powerful. Nor even the Cormyrian Purple Dragons, IMO. IMHO, I think the Phantom Dragoons (because that's what they are) should have been noted to be a small elite light Dragoon branch of the Knights Arcane, mostly used to harrangue enemy troops and for timely holding actions. In addition, it should have been noted that many Phantom Dragoons are not actually NPCs with the PrC levels. Coexistent with this, remove the ridiculous random encounter tables in the Floating Towers, note that Margana is a high level (not typical) and highly positioned member of the Council. If these changes were made, then maybe we could have a Last War that didn't involve changing river courses, raising mountain ranges and vast Walls, and other such massive geographic manipulations.