Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Drath'ri 08-26-05, 09:29 PM	Okay im a newbie DM to Eberron i must admit. And im thinking about playing it. I've played FR for the past five years so I figured that Eberron would be a Change of Pace. Now can someone tell me why there are so few high level characters in Eberron and why they are so rare?
mhacdebhandia 08-26-05, 09:36 PM	It's part of the design philosophy - in Eberron, characters with PC-class levels are rare, and characters with high levels even in NPC classes are even rarer. This means that there are few high-level heroes a la Elminster out there available to save the world - so the PCs have to. Even high-level PC-classed characters tend to have some limitations on them - there's a 20th-level awakened tree druid in the Eldeen Reaches, but he doesn't leave his grove except in the direst emergency. The leader of the church of the Silver Flame is 18th-level within the confines of Flamekeep (the equivalent of the Vatican). There are more powerful - high-level or high-Hit Dice - evil creatures out there, but they, too, tend to be restricted or have other reasons for not just conquering the world. It's a world designed to emphasise the heroic possibilities open to PCs.
Silopolis 08-26-05, 09:36 PM	The short answer is because that's the way the designers wanted it. :) Longer answer is that the players are meant to be the movers and shakers in this world, not big NPCs like Elminster or Raistlin. By level 5 your players should have distinguished themselves in a region, and by level 10 you're looking at characters who could challenge a king in martial combat. It's a bit of a paradigm shift for me, because the last game I ran, the players were level 10 and just sorta getting out on their own. This time they'll be famous by then, and I have to wrap my mind around the fact that sometimes kings of nations will want to meet the PCs just because they are who they are. Edit: mhacdebhandia beat me by less than a minute! So, uhm, what mhacdebhandia said. :)
Drath'ri 08-26-05, 09:52 PM	is it harder to gain levels... or is it all just like normal...? and when my players gain levels should i make it take longer then normal? like they could gain 5 levels in about a year or so?
Ricohard_Draconis 08-26-05, 09:58 PM	Player gaining levels is normal, though some DMs do otherwise. The in character reason for their being few high level characters is... they're all dead. Khorvaire the primary continent has been wracked by the last war, which raged for about a hundred years. All the great generals and warriors are dead fallen in battle. This isn't to mean that there are no high level adverserarys there just unlikely to engage the players in a knock down drag out fight. Vol, the Rajahs, the Qouri and the other primary players are all manipulators par excellance.
mhacdebhandia 08-26-05, 09:59 PM	No, it's just as easy as normal - for PCs. The general principle, though, is that only exceptional NPCs - opponents with the capacity to become long-term antagonists - have the capacity to reach high levels. People with NPC classes can get up high - there are many characters with more than 10 levels of expert or adept in Sharn, for instance. Keith Baker rationalises it thus: only exceptional people - PCs among them - have the capacity to rise to high levels. Your average veteran of the Last War might have spent five or ten years on campaign, but he'll still only be a 2nd-level warrior - he just doesn't have it in him to become more skilled or powerful. PCs (and NPCs with PC classes) gain experience according to the regular rate because they're exceptional individuals.
Gurv 08-26-05, 10:17 PM	Basically, the designers of Eberron sat down and said: "When do PCs become cool?" and they realized that the truth wasn't the truth they wanted. They wanted to say: "PCs are cool from the moment they're created", but that wasn't really true in the minds of most gamers. First level characters were barely competent next to the weakest NPCs of other settings, and remained that way until they gained enough levels to do things no one else could do. The designers, being Eberron designers and therefore superiorly endowed with problem-solving skills (amongst the many other supernatural powers granted to them by the Infernal Bovine) came up with a solution. "If PCs are not cool until they're better than the average NPC" they said, "then we should make sure that the average NPC does not outshine 1st level PCs". So it was spoken, and so it was done. The average NPC was once again given only NPC levels, while more important NPCs might mix a few PC levels in with them. Only the most important NPCs, such as the major villains and other antagonists, would have the kind of power that comes with many levels in a PC class. All of this began to bring the power level back to the point where 1st level characters could once again actually be heroes, as opposed to dime-a-dozen adventurers. A newly created PC might already be famous enough to be recognized by a bard, and is at least recognized well enough for his abilities that others would desire to hire him. Adventures can now start with the PCs being sought as professionals instead of amateurs, and employment by dark-cloaked figures in shadowy barroom corners becomes almost plausible (as opposed to the yet explained logic wherefore a powerful and well-connected individual hires completely random people to do far-reaching quests). There are no Elminsters or Mordekainens who hold the multiverse together either: if the PCs learn of a grand threat to the world, then it is up to them to deal with it, because they're the only ones who can, or will. The powerful people of the world are not powerful in the way the PCs are; they are the ones who need the PCs to save the world while they maintain the status quo, not the other way around. None of that means that there can't be high level adventure in Eberron. All it means is that low-level adventures don't have to be boring. Nor are they merely training for saving the world later. Think about it this way: in the real world, a single unskilled person can threaten a city if given a large enough bomb. With magic, the same thing can occur in Eberron. Which means that the PCs can be the ones to save the city, without being high-level. By the time the PCs are high-level, they're likely beyond dealing with thugs and warehouse guards and on to dealing with dragons and outsiders, or massive plots involving armies and such. All of which means that high-level adventuring is cooler in Eberron than in other settings, where the same things could be accomplished by NPCs equivalents.
Tek 08-26-05, 10:30 PM	Gurv put it really well in a nice long post, so I'll just add a couple things. NPC's dont have to be 20th level to be high level. This is a common error that other settings brewed up. Your fifth level group might be able to take on a king if they can fight him up close and personal. But he has the power of a kingdom behind him. He can hire assassians (a large group of level 2 rogues could take down many PC groups), or do other vile things to them. He could make them outlaws, hunted and feared by everyone in the Nations. Basically, power doesn't come with high levels anymore. It comes based on different, more important, things.
Edymnion 08-26-05, 10:56 PM	Now can someone tell me why there are so few high level characters in Eberron and why they are so rare?Well, turn the question around. Why is everybody and their grandmother in Faerun a 15th level wizard? Why would any villiage EVER need saving in Faerun when even the smallest of villiages seem to have lvl 5 fighters and wizard sages and all the rest? Surely they could beat the orcs back all by themselves, without having to scrounge up a half dozen lvl 1 newbies to do it for them. And why are people breaking their backs farming in Faerun when there's more than enough Druids with a high enough level to just cast Plant Growth on the crops? So, Eberron takes a more realistic and enjoyable direction. There's magic, so they use it wherever they can. But, almost everyone is very low level, so there is actually a good reason for the party to save the day, instead of being glorified rat hunters in the basement of some tavern.
Drath'ri 08-27-05, 03:12 PM	and this my friends... is exactly Why I love Eberron more then most of the other settings. I've played FR since i first started playing and i've been DMing the whole time so i usually hated when my players would turn around and tell me at 10th level when they were fighting something that could take out a town "Why isnt Elminster here?" and now Eberron has given me the oppurtunity to just say... well guys... guess what... theres noone able to handle these kinds of adventures here. so lets just say.. dont fail ;) Oh and Thanks for all the replies. very much appreciated
DarkWarriorKarg 08-27-05, 03:47 PM	and this my friends... is exactly Why I love Eberron more then most of the other settings. I've played FR since i first started playing and i've been DMing the whole time so i usually hated when my players would turn around and tell me at 10th level when they were fighting something that could take out a town "Why isnt Elminster here?" and now Eberron has given me the oppurtunity to just say... well guys... guess what... theres noone able to handle these kinds of adventures here. so lets just say.. dont fail ;) Oh and Thanks for all the replies. very much appreciated I must be fortunate. Having gamed since 1986, having played 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 3.5, I have NEVER witnessed nor know of anyone who witnessed such questions. I've run DC Heroes, never had anyone ask me why superman or any other icon wasn't around. Ditto for Marvel Super Heroes. Is this a modern thing? Are the current crop of players missing the point of being in an RPG? That they are supposed to be the heroes? The question shouldn't be "Why isn't Elminster here?". It should be "What's he doing here? We don't need him."
Edymnion 08-27-05, 04:11 PM	Is this a modern thing? Are the current crop of players missing the point of being in an RPG? That they are supposed to be the heroes? The question shouldn't be "Why isn't Elminster here?". It should be "What's he doing here? We don't need him."But you see, thats not realistic. If the entire world is hanging in the balance, and everybody is going to die if you don't save the day, why in the world would Elminster leave it up to you to do it? Its like sending 15 year olds to negotiate peace treaties between warring nations. Hundreds, or even thousands of lives and the stability of the entire region is hanging in the balance, why would you send anybody but the best you've got to solve the problem?
Gurv 08-27-05, 04:35 PM	But you see, thats not realistic. Agreed. It isn't that the players want Elminster to be available to save the day. In fact, if it seemed like that was what players wanted, there would no doubt be an equivilent in Eberron. WotC did their research on this one, and left high-level saviors out of the setting. Modern gamers don't want an Elminster to come save the day. They don't even want an Elminster to exist as a back-up. They want their success to be unmarred by the knowledge that failure would have been patched up by some other guy who exists to clean up their messes. Eberron gamers know that if they fail, the consequences really are dire...not just more overtime for an epic NPC.
Charles Phipps 08-27-05, 07:25 PM	Largely I've always wondered why PCs had such inferiority complexes and why so many Dms failed to realize that the majority of high level NPCs would never ever adventure or care whatsoever about what PCs care for. I love FR and call it made up slander that high levels have ever taken away from the setting. But we have the whole "Do High levels NPCs thread" for my screed on that.
DarkWarriorKarg 08-27-05, 07:41 PM	Modern gamers don't want an Elminster to come save the day. They don't even want an Elminster to exist as a back-up. They want their success to be unmarred by the knowledge that failure would have been patched up by some other guy who exists to clean up their messes. Eberron gamers know that if they fail, the consequences really are dire...not just more overtime for an epic NPC. Strange. As I pointed out in my post, it seems that the modern gamers are the ones asking why Elminster isn't around. He didn't even exist as a "backup" back in the day. Heck, until somewhere in the midpoint of the 2nd ed lifespan, Elminster didn't even have stats. Now, on the other hand, if the PCs were defending Shadowdale, and none of the Chosen were present at all, then RP-wise, the question would definitely need to be asked.
Charles Phipps 08-27-05, 07:43 PM	Strange. As I pointed out in my post, it seems that the modern gamers are the ones asking why Elminster isn't around. He didn't even exist as a "backup" back in the day. Heck, until somewhere in the midpoint of the 2nd ed lifespan, Elminster didn't even have stats. Now, on the other hand, if the PCs were defending Shadowdale, and none of the Chosen were present at all, then RP-wise, the question would definitely need to be asked. You're quite correct here. I always thought Ed's opinion were the Seven were Sages and Rulers, not Adventurers and it's only the novels that changed this. Part of the problem I have is the assumption that the NPcs don't operate according to the same rules that other characters do. No, NPC, no matter how powerful can't be defeated by sufficient force of a larger group.
Drath'ri 09-06-05, 08:53 PM	but what do i do when my (now above 10th level) players decied that they no longer wish to follow the rules and that everyone else should worship them because they are so powerful?
Ricohard_Draconis 09-06-05, 08:58 PM	you introduce them to the things that are still bigger and stronger than them... Dealkyr, Rakashsa, Inspired, Vol, The Mayor of Sharn and the Guard, Hags of Droaam... just because Eberron is low level doesn't mean its low powered. and there are a lot more of them than there are of the PC's.
Manyfist 09-06-05, 09:03 PM	but what do i do when my (now above 10th level) players decied that they no longer wish to follow the rules and that everyone else should worship them because they are so powerful? That's fine, just prepare to deal with d'Vol, and possibliy Kaius I (and III).
Druke 09-06-05, 09:04 PM	Well as one noted above, power is not in levels, but from 'other' things. If the players are playing evil, or some offshoot, have people get angry, what would happen IRL if Bush told everyone to do a bow whenever he walks by(not to be slanderous, or politicaly commenting, jsut an example) people would get PO'd and what do we do when we get PO'd? we send bounty hunters/guards/armies/etc. it in itself are adventure oppurtunities.
scissors 09-06-05, 09:08 PM	High level NPCs arent a problem for creative DM's... and that goes beyond just saying "he's busy" all the time. People learn to just tie them in next to the story, such as Elminster fighting an Arch Lich while PC_Party fights off the Zhents in the lower part of the tower, or what have you. If there is anything wrong with Forgotten Realms, having high level npc's isn't it. I didn't choose to move from FR to Eberron because of Elminster, or Manshoon or the Simbul, I chose to because I liked the elements of Eberron and the adaptation of v3.5. And in all fairness, it would only be realistic to acknowledge Eberron will one day have high level npc's... unless for some reason there is always only 4 powerful good-minded people in the entire world.
Roxlimn 09-06-05, 09:20 PM	I prefer to think of Eberron as "grittier" leveled rather than "lower-leveled." There won't be masses of 11th level Wizards preparing to do battle, nor will there be epic level Sages going around meddling in other people's businesses "for the good of Khorvaire," which would more or less coincides with what the PCs want. Eberron does have higher leveled and higher powered NPCs. There's Vol, for example, or any of the Daughters of Sora. Heck, I'd like to believe that there's at least one Wizard of at least 17th Wizard casting level in the Arcane Congress and a slightly lower level one in the Twelve. It's just that these people aren't necessarily backed up by deities, and their purposes are their own, which may or may not coincide with what the PCs would like to happen. Some of them may even be Good in alignment, but that doesn't mean that they don't want their own king to rule a reunited Galifar. It's a lot less "pastel-colored" than Faerun, just to name a probably unjustifiably maligned setting. Thus, in Eberron, the question of why Kaius isn't helping you out even when you are his agent can be any of the following: 1. He hired or ordered you to do what you're doing because he's busy advancing his agendas on another field. If he could do everything, he wouldn't need you! 2. He actually can't help you for some reason or another, but of course, he wouldn't want to let you know about this weakness just like that. 3. He can help you but is opting to watch for reasons of his own. Maybe you're bait for larger fish. There is a good indication that more of this sort of attitude is leaking into the Realms more recently. I'd like to think that this is what Ed has been wanting all along. For example, not all the Good or even all the Chosen get along. Blackstaff, for example, has branched out on his own and is probably advancing his own plots which may or may not be contrary to those of his declared allies. Alustriel is too busy trying to put out fires in her own kingdom to interfere and Elminster just doesn't seem to care all that much for some reason. The notion that Good is "united" and Evil is "disunited" only lead PCs to ask why not every Good aligned creature is helping them out. In Eberron, you can't count on this, and it makes things more interesting. Indeed, for the paranoid, Eberron could even be the setting where you can't count on anybody, and it could very well be true. This did not use to be so very well portrayed in Faerun product, though Ed always said that it was so. Even so, Faerun is somewhat a bit higher leveled, meaning that there's a bit more of a superheroic attitude in the setting. People with "super powers" go around saving the day in self-titled groups. In Eberron, this is much less the case. Powerful PC powers are the realm of the truly heroic in stature and there aren't that many of them around.
Von Ether 09-06-05, 09:58 PM	but what do i do when my (now above 10th level) players decied that they no longer wish to follow the rules and that everyone else should worship them because they are so powerful? Because becoming a despot is hard work? You constantly have to put down rebellions, freedom fighters and rewrite history. Actually, some GMs have been tripped up not by low-powered NPCs, but the far reaching connections of the Houses and governements. It's easier to talk to your best friend the king, spend some gold and let the city guard to the work. Then again, if the city guard can handle it, then it's probably not in the same league as the PCs.
(Psi)SeveredHead 09-06-05, 10:54 PM	I must be fortunate. Having gamed since 1986, having played 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 3.5, I have NEVER witnessed nor know of anyone who witnessed such questions. I've run DC Heroes, never had anyone ask me why superman or any other icon wasn't around. Ditto for Marvel Super Heroes. Is this a modern thing? Are the current crop of players missing the point of being in an RPG? That they are supposed to be the heroes? The question shouldn't be "Why isn't Elminster here?". It should be "What's he doing here? We don't need him." You've never run a crappy 2e adventure like Azure Bonds. Good job. Have youa voided "save-the-world" adventures? That helps. The novels bely your arguments. Never mind Elminster, there are plenty of other younger Chosen who can take over. Khelben apparently has nothing better to do than (in Streams of Silver, or maybe the novel that immediately followed that one) to admit foreigners with an unfortunate reputation for evil (Drizzt) into the city. The big K is an errand boy? (He was written up totally differently in the Liriel Baenre series.) If Khelben has that much spare time, and has more than 7 levels and a template over what the PCs are going to have, why isn't he saving the world? He can find out whatever arcane secret it takes to win with just a skill check (or maybe talk to Mystra), then cast the same kind of spell it takes to move an Elven Portal and win.
Salla 09-06-05, 11:35 PM	but what do i do when my (now above 10th level) players decied that they no longer wish to follow the rules and that everyone else should worship them because they are so powerful? You say "Well, since Eberron is a game about swashbuckling heroism, and you've all turned into villains, give me your sheets. Now, you can make up 2nd level characters who are getting embroiled in the plots created when your 10th level characters turned into power-mad *****helmets."
Roxlimn 09-06-05, 11:44 PM	(Psi)SeveredHead: If Khelben has that much spare time, and has more than 7 levels and a template over what the PCs are going to have, why isn't he saving the world? He can find out whatever arcane secret it takes to win with just a skill check (or maybe talk to Mystra), then cast the same kind of spell it takes to move an Elven Portal and win. Well, to be fair, it should be more of a problem in the past, or at least I hope it will be. Moreover, it's a problem with the Faerunian adventures themselves, and less of a problem concerning too-high NPC levels. For example, if massive drow armies are invading the Realms through Shadowdale, it's a bit difficult to explain why Khelben, the Chosen, and Elminster aren't personally involving themselves in that problem. What, is there something more threatening happening elsewhere? Is the Realms perennially on the verge of complete collapse? These days, there's the problem of the Moonstars, their goals, and Khelben's little insurrection. If some drow are planning to invade Shadowdale and Khelben behaves like he's busy doing something else, it sounds a lot less cheesy and a lot more dark and suspicious. For that matter, if Elminster also behaves aloof, you'll have to wonder if there's some sort of subtle power play being made there, now.
zambuka 09-07-05, 12:19 AM	Okay im a newbie DM to Eberron i must admit. And im thinking about playing it. I've played FR for the past five years so I figured that Eberron would be a Change of Pace. Now can someone tell me why there are so few high level characters in Eberron and why they are so rare? Simple, they are not needed. There is no need for the village leader to be a 15th level wizard when a 1st or 2nd level aristocrat or expert has all the skills needed to run the village. There is no reason why the town's priests should be 5th level clerics when a half dozen 1st level experts backed up by a 2nd level adept is sufficient to tend the flock. There is no reason why the town guard should consist of a dozen 5th level fighters and a 15th level barbarian when a half dozen 1st level warriors lead by a 2nd level warrior can deal with 99% of all problems that arise, and for most of the rest of the problems they can count of drafting townsmen with pitchforks and scythes and torches. There is no reason why a king should be an 18th level fighter when all he needs is the luck of being born to the previous king. Although Boronal has a good excuse for being a relatively high level. He stood at the front of his army and lead the charge at most major battles rather than just guiding from a heavily guarded tent pitched miles from the battlezone. Villages and towns in Eberron don't have to deal with bullette raids, goblin hordes and unscrupulous bandits every second day. These are events that keep a village talking for the next 10 years before something else comes along. These are what adventurers deal with.
Steelpunk 09-07-05, 12:50 AM	Personally, I always saw part of the reason behind the low-level basis for Eberron as partly attributable to how much more serious death is treated as compared to other settings. Bringing someone back from the dead in Eberron can range from complicated to nearly impossible if the party doesn't have their own cleric on-hand (and sometimes, even if they do). So, if someone dies, chances are good that they'll stay dead and not bounce back to continue on their merry way to higher levels. Otherwise, I imagine there would indeed be high level heroes wandering around, since the various rulers would have just raised their fallen champions of the Last War. Death in Eberron has actually added some enjoyment for my players - they're far less cavalier and much more conscientious about encounters than they were in other settings, and they view level gains as much more significant.
polt 09-07-05, 01:43 AM	And in all fairness, it would only be realistic to acknowledge Eberron will one day have high level npc's... unless for some reason there is always only 4 powerful good-minded people in the entire world. Well. In your game maybe. But we know that NPCs work a little different XP-wise. You can have your recurring villian who advance at the players does. But the population as a whole is pretty static in level.
Drath'ri 09-07-05, 02:36 AM	one more question. i think haha lets say one of my PC's die (permantly) and he was about level 15. im FR and such places i would usually just have a replacement meet the group. but in Eberron there arent many high level NPC's i can throw in as replacements. how would i fix that situation?
Leonidus 09-07-05, 03:42 AM	one more question. i think haha lets say one of my PC's die (permantly) and he was about level 15. im FR and such places i would usually just have a replacement meet the group. but in Eberron there arent many high level NPC's i can throw in as replacements. how would i fix that situation? Maybe it's an opportunity to throw in a monster PC. It's the character class levels that are low, there's still nations like Droaam that average 7-12 ECL.
Splendide 09-07-05, 04:47 AM	lets say one of my PC's die (permantly) and he was about level 15. im FR and such places i would usually just have a replacement meet the group. but in Eberron there arent many high level NPC's i can throw in as replacements. how would i fix that situation?Easy. Some strange fellow that's been in Xen'drik for the past 10 years.
Fordel 09-07-05, 05:35 AM	Alot of the time it isn't the High level NPC as much as it is the... (for lack of a better term) "world story" of a setting moving forward faster then the PC's can manage. You see this in DragonLance, where your entire GameSetting is blown apart and rebuilt every next big Trilogy Released in the novel line. Alot of writters and designers always want to move the world forward in the time line... which tends to break the world as a game setting. It's when game settings, solve there own problems through the books and novels with other people. Lets the authors flesh out the past, or let them write small scale things about the present... but keep them away from the future. I never want to see any game material or any novels dealing with the time after 998YK. Fill up everything Before that time and up to that time, but do not go beyond that time it the gameworld. Everything from 998YK and beyond is the players time. Give them a fantastic base with everything before and up to, but leave everythign after for the players. Once you start 'progressing' the world, it tends to break. Like the sure fire sign that Eberron is broken is if they ever give a definate reason to the mourning :P
Just another user 09-07-05, 05:43 AM	one more question. i think haha lets say one of my PC's die (permantly) and he was about level 15. im FR and such places i would usually just have a replacement meet the group. but in Eberron there arent many high level NPC's i can throw in as replacements. how would i fix that situation? Good question. I think I just create a lower level character (maybe even much lower, like half of the level of the rest of the party, with the way XP rewards and level advancement works in 3rd edtion he should fill the gap in the levels quickly enough. Probably I smooth thing down a little with things like giving himan extra edge in magic items (giving him more powerful items that his level would normally allow, even if just because he can use the equipment of his predeccesor(sp) ) or lowering the CR of the encounters of a couple of notches until he is ready. Of course I also assume the party won't jump in the middle of the fray with a "green" character between them and that they'll keep an extra eye on him during combats but if a 15th level party want to go go in Kyber when their main caster is a 10th level wizard it is their own choice. ;) .
Lina_Inverse 09-07-05, 04:08 PM	one more question. i think haha lets say one of my PC's die (permantly) and he was about level 15. im FR and such places i would usually just have a replacement meet the group. but in Eberron there arent many high level NPC's i can throw in as replacements. how would i fix that situation? as noted monster pcs. or ummm you that major life changeing favor thrane owes you(your 14th level you must have one by now)?go ask the keeper of the flame for a true res. NEVER however **** up the average level too much.bring new pcs in at party average-1.it screws with partys mightily.
zambuka 09-07-05, 09:00 PM	lets say one of my PC's die (permantly) and he was about level 15. im FR and such places i would usually just have a replacement meet the group. but in Eberron there arent many high level NPC's i can throw in as replacements. how would i fix that situation? It's not like you are going to give one of your players Merrik d'Cannith to play so I don't really see a problem with doing the same thing. There will be other high level characters floating about the world, a hero from some battle, a reclusive wizard, or some other character. The difference is that these are extras, or at most a 20 worder. You know, the crowd in the background the PCs never really interact with, the other 1500 troops in the army, Cannith artificer number 5, miscellaneous hobgoblin cannon fodder number 12. They exist, as nameless background parts, they are the fluff and decoration of the setting. But when you need one you can give him stats, a level a name and a personality.