Linguistic coincidence? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Linguistic coincidence? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Siran Dunmorgan
12-30-05, 10:52 AM In reading through the Iconic Monsters entry for the Marguul clans in the Eberron Campaign Setting, I noticed that many bugbears are said to worship "Lhesh Shaarat, a bugbear interpretation of Dol Dorn."

Now, isn't "Lhesh Shaarat" the goblin phrase "Lord of Blades?"

Linguistic coincidence?

Or conspiracy?

—Siran Dunmorgan
AntiSean
12-30-05, 11:59 AM In reading through the Iconic Monsters entry for the Marguul clans in the Eberron Campaign Setting, I noticed that many bugbears are said to worship "Lhesh Sharaat, a bugbear interpretation of Dol Dorn."

Now, isn't "Lhesh Sharaat" the goblin phrase "Lord of Blades?"

Linguistic coincidence?

Or conspiracy?

—Siran Dunmorgan

Run! You'd need to go into hiding, now that you've uncovered the truth! :)

That's actually pretty damn cool...so, you're saying that the LoBster is an avatar of Dol Dorn? I *knew* he was misunderstood by the fleshies!

Some of the Golbinoid words used so far have had multiple translations: duur means "dirge" in Ghaal'duur, the Mighty Dirge, and "sorrows" in Duur'shaarat "Blade of Sorrows", as Ja'shaarat was renamed after the fall of the Empire of Dhakaan. I've taken that as inspiration to use duur as "lament" in my own writings. Shaarat, on the other hand, has been consistantly translated as "blade" - Ja'shaarat, Duur'shaarat, Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor, Kech Shaarat, Shaarat'khesh... (although Hellcow translated Shaarat'khesh as"silent knives" in the Monastic Orders Dragonshard, it seems more likely to me that "silent blades" was intended, as translated in the Heirs of Dhakaan Dragonshard.)

Having said all that, Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor is translated as High Warlord Haruuc of the Scarlet Blade. If Lhesh functions similarly to duur, then it's possible that it could also be taken to mean 'Lord' instead of 'High Warlord'. My guess is that a title that specific would only have one meaning. So I guess that some Marguul worship the High Warlord of Blades? Or is the LoB due for a promotion some time soon?

One the other hand, though (how many hands am I at by now?), Dol seems to be an equivalent of Lord in Common or a holdover from Riedran. (Dol Dorn, Dol Arrah, Dol Azur - perhaps 'Lord' in a deific rather than worldly sense? I've seen speculation that the Dol Azur that the Eye and/or Blade of Dol Azur reference could be the Mockery's original name before being cast out of the Sovereign Host, and I like that...a lot.) Lhesh Shaarat = Dol Dorn does seem to lends some weight to that possibility. Damnit, now I can't decide! :)
Siran Dunmorgan
12-30-05, 01:07 PM One the other hand, though (how many hands am I at by now?), Dol seems to be an equivalent of Lord in Common or a holdover from Riedran. (Dol Dorn, Dol Arrah, Dol Azur - perhaps 'Lord' in a deific rather than worldly sense? I've seen speculation that the Dol Azur that the Eye and/or Blade of Dol Azur reference could be the Mockery's original name before being cast out of the Sovereign Host, and I like that...a lot.) Lhesh Shaarat = Dol Dorn does seem to lends some weight to that possibility. Damnit, now I can't decide! :)

Hellcow has elsewhere stated that "Dol," as used in the names of the Sovereign Host is derived from a Draconic word meaning something like "mighty," in the sense of "mighty in battle."

Also according to Hellcow, Dol Arrah, Dol Dorn, and the Mockery are collectively known as the "War Triad" and are often worshipped together, particularly in Karrnath.

—Siran Dunmorgan
Bluebrush
12-30-05, 03:51 PM Now, isn't "Lhesh Shaarat" the goblin phrase "Lord of Blades?"

Linguistic coincidence?

Or conspiracy?Well, think about how many superheroes/supervillains rip off aspects of greek or other cultures and religions to get names.

No doubt in Eberron people name their inventions or space programs after ancient historical figures to make them sound exciting.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph
12-30-05, 07:13 PM Well Lhesh Shaarat only has 12 letters. Maybe the missing 13th letter reveals the hidden truth of... yeah, I got nothing.

:shifty:

CONSPIRACY! :twitch:
KP91
12-30-05, 09:27 PM Is it me or are there a surprisingly lot of conspiracy theories on the boards.....
*boom*

You did not read any of this, continue to read Eberron!
Edymnion
12-31-05, 01:19 AM I can explain everything if you just look at this device...
*puts on his sunglasses*

/--\
\|__|/
->|##|<-
/|--|\
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
\--/
Feor
12-31-05, 01:53 AM If the Lord of Blades is an avatar of Dol Dorn...

Obviously wouldn't be that hard for a god to possess any kind of living creature, including a construct.

Also covers the Godforged, who're supposedly building a gigantic innert Warforged in the Mournland to act as a host for their patron diety. Makes sense that a god of war would want his chosen form on the prime material to be the biggest, most powerful weapon of war ever constructed.
Dex
12-31-05, 08:02 AM So if the LoB is Dol Dorn, who are Dol Arrah and Dol Azur?...

Any of yous know?
ChronosCrow
12-31-05, 01:57 PM Oh, this is just too good for words.
igotsmeakabob!!
12-31-05, 03:19 PM I love this discussion... its candy to the healthy but mechanical goodness of the rest of the boards.
Hedstrong
12-31-05, 05:27 PM If the Lord of Blades is an avatar of Dol Dorn...

Obviously wouldn't be that hard for a god to possess any kind of living creature, including a construct.

Also covers the Godforged, who're supposedly building a gigantic innert Warforged in the Mournland to act as a host for their patron diety. Makes sense that a god of war would want his chosen form on the prime material to be the biggest, most powerful weapon of war ever constructed.

Not to be a party pooper, but isnt that kinda against the biggest part of Ebberon? The fact that Dol Dorn WOULDNT want to make a giant warforged for him to come into the prime cus the gods just plain dont do that sorta stuff. But then again w\e floats yur boat.
Feor
12-31-05, 05:48 PM Not to be a party pooper, but isnt that kinda against the biggest part of Ebberon? The fact that Dol Dorn WOULDNT want to make a giant warforged for him to come into the prime cus the gods just plain dont do that sorta stuff. But then again w\e floats yur boat.

Hey, I'm just quotin' Races of Eberron. The Godforged have supposedly recieved instruction from a "Construct Diety" (and we all know dieties can appear as whatever they want in a vision) to build him a vessel on the material plane and are actively doing so in the mournland.
JackAltrades
12-31-05, 06:20 PM Couldn't it just be that before the Lord of Blades was the Lord of Blades that he had an adventure in goblin territory and impressed them so much they called him the Lhesh Sharaat and he kept the traslation as his name ever since be cause it was much more impressive than "Bob: the Warforged" or what ever he was before taking his seat of power in the Mournlands.

Interesting LoB theory though, My friend and I have been picking apart Vol lately and haven't talked about him for some time... I gotta run this by him.

This does inspire some "in the Background" adventure filler though... maybe a ruined temple in Darguun, with murals of the LoB as a great hero or divine aspect rescuing the gobliniods from some great evil, so they errected a temple in his honor... (stereotypicly speaking, Goblins arn't too bright), not realizing that he was "just a warforged".

well, have fun
~Jack Altrades
a_psh
12-31-05, 06:38 PM Hmm... I always thought of Llesh Sharaat as meaning something more like "Lord Blade" or "King Sword" than "the Lord of Blades".
Edymnion
01-01-06, 01:26 AM This does inspire some "in the Background" adventure filler though... maybe a ruined temple in Darguun, with murals of the LoB as a great hero or divine aspect rescuing the gobliniods from some great evil, so they errected a temple in his honor... (stereotypicly speaking, Goblins arn't too bright), not realizing that he was "just a warforged".Thats a good idea, actually. Finding an ancient temple, with a mural of a great hobgoblin in spiked armor, which has the exact same big bladed wing things as the Lord of Blades, and carries an identical two-bladed sword.

There was an idea in Wes Craven's New Nightmare where *spoilers for the Nightmare on Elm Street series* there was an eternal demon who could only be bound in interesting stories. In the movie, which was about the actors of the Freddy movies actually being hunted by Freddy, this demon had been bound into the Nightmare on Elm Street stories. When they stopped making them, he was released, but liked the form of Freddy Kruger so much that he kept it. The only way to stop it was to make a new movie, to rebind him into the story once again.

Perhaps that could be imported into Eberron, or the very basic idea of it. Perhaps there is an aspect of evil that wants to conquer the world that is embodied once every so many centuries into the form of the strongest being available. If the players research enough, they would be able to find records of a Lord of Blades back in the goblin empire days, amongst the giants, going all the way back to the Age of Demons. This time, he has incarnated as a Warforged, and has once again hefted his two bladed sword and his armor blades, and once again seeks to regain his place as a high lord over all the world, like he was in the age of demons.

Heh, I like that! Turns him from just a crazy WF with delusions of grandure into an ancient evil. Sure, he sounds evil enough as a WF, but if the players were to discover that he's actually an ancient demon that would be able to restore the Age of Demons should he succeed in taking over... he suddenly moves up a few ranks in nastyness.

Yeah, I really like this idea, I'm using it! :D
Deadguy
01-01-06, 07:14 AM Nice one Edy! That has some real potential. Potential I might well use in furthering my own Eberron campaign; the party's artificer is great nephew to Aaren D'Cannith, and the Warforged already has hints that she's special. :evillaugh
Euangelion
01-01-06, 12:04 PM I think that the coincidence reveals that the LoB is actually a hobgoblin cleric 6 (Artifice and War)/Renegade Mastermaker 10 with delusions of godhood.
Nature-boy
01-02-06, 02:11 AM That's beautiful. Now let us allow this thread to die with dignity before our players stumble upon this dasturdly ancient truth.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Siran Dunmorgan 12-30-05, 10:52 AM	In reading through the Iconic Monsters entry for the Marguul clans in the Eberron Campaign Setting, I noticed that many bugbears are said to worship "Lhesh Shaarat, a bugbear interpretation of Dol Dorn." Now, isn't "Lhesh Shaarat" the goblin phrase "Lord of Blades?" Linguistic coincidence? Or conspiracy? —Siran Dunmorgan
AntiSean 12-30-05, 11:59 AM	In reading through the Iconic Monsters entry for the Marguul clans in the Eberron Campaign Setting, I noticed that many bugbears are said to worship "Lhesh Sharaat, a bugbear interpretation of Dol Dorn." Now, isn't "Lhesh Sharaat" the goblin phrase "Lord of Blades?" Linguistic coincidence? Or conspiracy? —Siran Dunmorgan Run! You'd need to go into hiding, now that you've uncovered the truth! :) That's actually pretty damn cool...so, you're saying that the LoBster is an avatar of Dol Dorn? I knew he was misunderstood by the fleshies! Some of the Golbinoid words used so far have had multiple translations: duur means "dirge" in Ghaal'duur, the Mighty Dirge, and "sorrows" in Duur'shaarat "Blade of Sorrows", as Ja'shaarat was renamed after the fall of the Empire of Dhakaan. I've taken that as inspiration to use duur as "lament" in my own writings. Shaarat, on the other hand, has been consistantly translated as "blade" - Ja'shaarat, Duur'shaarat, Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor, Kech Shaarat, Shaarat'khesh... (although Hellcow translated Shaarat'khesh as"silent knives" in the Monastic Orders Dragonshard, it seems more likely to me that "silent blades" was intended, as translated in the Heirs of Dhakaan Dragonshard.) Having said all that, Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor is translated as High Warlord Haruuc of the Scarlet Blade. If Lhesh functions similarly to duur, then it's possible that it could also be taken to mean 'Lord' instead of 'High Warlord'. My guess is that a title that specific would only have one meaning. So I guess that some Marguul worship the High Warlord of Blades? Or is the LoB due for a promotion some time soon? One the other hand, though (how many hands am I at by now?), Dol seems to be an equivalent of Lord in Common or a holdover from Riedran. (Dol Dorn, Dol Arrah, Dol Azur - perhaps 'Lord' in a deific rather than worldly sense? I've seen speculation that the Dol Azur that the Eye and/or Blade of Dol Azur reference could be the Mockery's original name before being cast out of the Sovereign Host, and I like that...a lot.) Lhesh Shaarat = Dol Dorn does seem to lends some weight to that possibility. Damnit, now I can't decide! :)
Siran Dunmorgan 12-30-05, 01:07 PM	One the other hand, though (how many hands am I at by now?), Dol seems to be an equivalent of Lord in Common or a holdover from Riedran. (Dol Dorn, Dol Arrah, Dol Azur - perhaps 'Lord' in a deific rather than worldly sense? I've seen speculation that the Dol Azur that the Eye and/or Blade of Dol Azur reference could be the Mockery's original name before being cast out of the Sovereign Host, and I like that...a lot.) Lhesh Shaarat = Dol Dorn does seem to lends some weight to that possibility. Damnit, now I can't decide! :) Hellcow has elsewhere stated that "Dol," as used in the names of the Sovereign Host is derived from a Draconic word meaning something like "mighty," in the sense of "mighty in battle." Also according to Hellcow, Dol Arrah, Dol Dorn, and the Mockery are collectively known as the "War Triad" and are often worshipped together, particularly in Karrnath. —Siran Dunmorgan
Bluebrush 12-30-05, 03:51 PM	Now, isn't "Lhesh Shaarat" the goblin phrase "Lord of Blades?" Linguistic coincidence? Or conspiracy?Well, think about how many superheroes/supervillains rip off aspects of greek or other cultures and religions to get names. No doubt in Eberron people name their inventions or space programs after ancient historical figures to make them sound exciting.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 12-30-05, 07:13 PM	Well Lhesh Shaarat only has 12 letters. Maybe the missing 13th letter reveals the hidden truth of... yeah, I got nothing. :shifty: CONSPIRACY! :twitch:
KP91 12-30-05, 09:27 PM	Is it me or are there a surprisingly lot of conspiracy theories on the boards..... boom You did not read any of this, continue to read Eberron!
Edymnion 12-31-05, 01:19 AM	I can explain everything if you just look at this device... puts on his sunglasses /--\ \\|__\|/ ->\|##\|<- /\|--\|\ \| \| \| \| \| \| \| \| \| \| \| \| \--/
Feor 12-31-05, 01:53 AM	If the Lord of Blades is an avatar of Dol Dorn... Obviously wouldn't be that hard for a god to possess any kind of living creature, including a construct. Also covers the Godforged, who're supposedly building a gigantic innert Warforged in the Mournland to act as a host for their patron diety. Makes sense that a god of war would want his chosen form on the prime material to be the biggest, most powerful weapon of war ever constructed.
Dex 12-31-05, 08:02 AM	So if the LoB is Dol Dorn, who are Dol Arrah and Dol Azur?... Any of yous know?
ChronosCrow 12-31-05, 01:57 PM	Oh, this is just too good for words.
igotsmeakabob!! 12-31-05, 03:19 PM	I love this discussion... its candy to the healthy but mechanical goodness of the rest of the boards.
Hedstrong 12-31-05, 05:27 PM	If the Lord of Blades is an avatar of Dol Dorn... Obviously wouldn't be that hard for a god to possess any kind of living creature, including a construct. Also covers the Godforged, who're supposedly building a gigantic innert Warforged in the Mournland to act as a host for their patron diety. Makes sense that a god of war would want his chosen form on the prime material to be the biggest, most powerful weapon of war ever constructed. Not to be a party pooper, but isnt that kinda against the biggest part of Ebberon? The fact that Dol Dorn WOULDNT want to make a giant warforged for him to come into the prime cus the gods just plain dont do that sorta stuff. But then again w\e floats yur boat.
Feor 12-31-05, 05:48 PM	Not to be a party pooper, but isnt that kinda against the biggest part of Ebberon? The fact that Dol Dorn WOULDNT want to make a giant warforged for him to come into the prime cus the gods just plain dont do that sorta stuff. But then again w\e floats yur boat. Hey, I'm just quotin' Races of Eberron. The Godforged have supposedly recieved instruction from a "Construct Diety" (and we all know dieties can appear as whatever they want in a vision) to build him a vessel on the material plane and are actively doing so in the mournland.
JackAltrades 12-31-05, 06:20 PM	Couldn't it just be that before the Lord of Blades was the Lord of Blades that he had an adventure in goblin territory and impressed them so much they called him the Lhesh Sharaat and he kept the traslation as his name ever since be cause it was much more impressive than "Bob: the Warforged" or what ever he was before taking his seat of power in the Mournlands. Interesting LoB theory though, My friend and I have been picking apart Vol lately and haven't talked about him for some time... I gotta run this by him. This does inspire some "in the Background" adventure filler though... maybe a ruined temple in Darguun, with murals of the LoB as a great hero or divine aspect rescuing the gobliniods from some great evil, so they errected a temple in his honor... (stereotypicly speaking, Goblins arn't too bright), not realizing that he was "just a warforged". well, have fun ~Jack Altrades
a_psh 12-31-05, 06:38 PM	Hmm... I always thought of Llesh Sharaat as meaning something more like "Lord Blade" or "King Sword" than "the Lord of Blades".
Edymnion 01-01-06, 01:26 AM	This does inspire some "in the Background" adventure filler though... maybe a ruined temple in Darguun, with murals of the LoB as a great hero or divine aspect rescuing the gobliniods from some great evil, so they errected a temple in his honor... (stereotypicly speaking, Goblins arn't too bright), not realizing that he was "just a warforged".Thats a good idea, actually. Finding an ancient temple, with a mural of a great hobgoblin in spiked armor, which has the exact same big bladed wing things as the Lord of Blades, and carries an identical two-bladed sword. There was an idea in Wes Craven's New Nightmare where spoilers for the Nightmare on Elm Street series there was an eternal demon who could only be bound in interesting stories. In the movie, which was about the actors of the Freddy movies actually being hunted by Freddy, this demon had been bound into the Nightmare on Elm Street stories. When they stopped making them, he was released, but liked the form of Freddy Kruger so much that he kept it. The only way to stop it was to make a new movie, to rebind him into the story once again. Perhaps that could be imported into Eberron, or the very basic idea of it. Perhaps there is an aspect of evil that wants to conquer the world that is embodied once every so many centuries into the form of the strongest being available. If the players research enough, they would be able to find records of a Lord of Blades back in the goblin empire days, amongst the giants, going all the way back to the Age of Demons. This time, he has incarnated as a Warforged, and has once again hefted his two bladed sword and his armor blades, and once again seeks to regain his place as a high lord over all the world, like he was in the age of demons. Heh, I like that! Turns him from just a crazy WF with delusions of grandure into an ancient evil. Sure, he sounds evil enough as a WF, but if the players were to discover that he's actually an ancient demon that would be able to restore the Age of Demons should he succeed in taking over... he suddenly moves up a few ranks in nastyness. Yeah, I really like this idea, I'm using it! :D
Deadguy 01-01-06, 07:14 AM	Nice one Edy! That has some real potential. Potential I might well use in furthering my own Eberron campaign; the party's artificer is great nephew to Aaren D'Cannith, and the Warforged already has hints that she's special. :evillaugh
Euangelion 01-01-06, 12:04 PM	I think that the coincidence reveals that the LoB is actually a hobgoblin cleric 6 (Artifice and War)/Renegade Mastermaker 10 with delusions of godhood.
Nature-boy 01-02-06, 02:11 AM	That's beautiful. Now let us allow this thread to die with dignity before our players stumble upon this dasturdly ancient truth.