LoB: A charismatic leader? [Archive] - Wizards Community

LoB: A charismatic leader? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
UncleScrewtape
09-14-05, 02:22 PM It's possible this question's been asked and answered, but I've been browsing for a while and seen nothing.

The Lord of Blades is depicted as a charismatic leader of Warforged, who gives firey speeches and leads his men by appealing to their metal-and-darkwood hearts.

But he's got 5 levels of Warforged Juggernaut, which states that the character becomes more robotic and less human with each level of Construct Perfection.

So, where's the LoB's charismatic leadership coming from, if he's more construct than sentient?
Rake
09-14-05, 02:42 PM Would you find a robot to be charismatic? Of course not.
Would a robot find you to be charismatic? Of course not.
Would a robot find a robot to be charismatic? Aha... perhaps!

And sure, the 'forged take a Charisma hit... but the Gatekeeper orcs take a hit to Wis, the halfling barbarians take a hit to Str, and the dwarven artificers take a hit to Cha. *shrugs*
polt
09-14-05, 02:59 PM He is NOT a robot.

And I think people would find him charismatic too. In the way that he would look very scary. People would fear him, while some warforged would admire him.
DarkWarriorKarg
09-14-05, 04:17 PM Maybe he's got a spokesperson...

To bring up a rather well-known example, Moses was a stutterer. Aaron was the speachgiver.
UncleScrewtape
09-14-05, 04:47 PM Would you find a robot to be charismatic? Of course not.
Would a robot find you to be charismatic? Of course not.
Would a robot find a robot to be charismatic? Aha... perhaps!

And sure, the 'forged take a Charisma hit... but the Gatekeeper orcs take a hit to Wis, the halfling barbarians take a hit to Str, and the dwarven artificers take a hit to Cha. *shrugs*

It's not just a hit to the Charisma stat. The text of the Warforged Juggernaut PrC states that the character becomes less and less emotional and humanoid-like with every level of Construct Perfection, and more and more like a Construct. And the LoB is specifically written in up in Five Nations to be, well, a bit emotional. Hateful, meglomanical, ambitious, glory-seeking, etc. All of these things are emotion-based. And, if he's a Juggernaut, he just doesn't have the emotion to base it on.

He is NOT a robot.

Well, yes. He's obviously not, given the way he's written. But given the rules regarding the Warforged Juggernaut PrC, he oughta be. I don't intend to run the LoB this way IMC, I'm just wondering how it's rationalized.
Hair Wax
09-14-05, 06:53 PM Bear in mind that the stats in 5n aren't the only stats. They'll undoubtedly print more and different examples. Maybe the next one will reflect him as more charismatic than this one.
travellersside
09-15-05, 05:25 AM With me, he's a Charisma-focused Bard/Marshal. No more.

He's good at the social skills and has high ranks in Perform: Oratory. As far as amazing combat skills go, even a Wizard 10 has a higher BAB and more hitpoints than a warrior 3, so yes, he's good in a fight, just not a powerhouse. He's far better at leading the troops, which he will do well

And the most important bit, as far as I'm concerned - He's the Lord of Blades. His most powerful followers are all named after... Bladed weapons. That's where he gets his name from, not from a bunch of sharp things nailed to his body.

It's the difference between him being a good leader and a good fighter. If he's working on building a small nation, with some success I might add, his ability to kill things has to come second to his ability to get others to do what he wants.
Deadguy
09-15-05, 08:03 AM Bear in mind that the stats in 5n aren't the only stats. They'll undoubtedly print more and different examples. Maybe the next one will reflect him as more charismatic than this one.
Yup! I like to think that the Lord of Blades that we have already seen is the violent front for the 'real' LoB who acts as a 'mere' advisor and is the real powerhouse of the Mournland. The Juggernaut is used to impress 'forged wo like to see military might.
polt
09-15-05, 10:31 AM But like another guy said, the ones in 5N is just one way to do it. Perhaps we'll someday see a LoB cleric or bard. Or just a plain fighter.

Maybe an NPC class LoB.
Salla
09-15-05, 12:50 PM As a great person once said ...

"The secret to diplomacy is telling people what they want to hear."

Since he's telling these disaffected Warforged what they want to hear, his DCs are nauseatingly low (if they're even required). Even the LoB can hit a DC 5 Diplomacy check if the WF he's talking to was just freed from virtual slave labor in Karrn by the LoB's agents.
gotan
09-15-05, 12:56 PM It could be that someone, something or some artifact gave him the equivilent of warforged psionics. Good hypnosis would make anyone charisamtic. Especialy if you don't think anyone can change your mind.
UncleScrewtape
09-15-05, 03:09 PM Since he's telling these disaffected Warforged what they want to hear, his DCs are nauseatingly low (if they're even required). Even the LoB can hit a DC 5 Diplomacy check if the WF he's talking to was just freed from virtual slave labor in Karrn by the LoB's agents.

To reiterate: I am not talking about mechanics here. I'm talking about flavor-to-flavor comparisons. In the Juggernaut class, it says that the 'Forged becomes more and more robotic, displaying fewer sentient characteristics and more construct ones. The the LoB material, it talks about having very sentient motivations and doing very sentient things. My argument isn't that he couldn't make the DC 5 Diplomacy check, my argument is that he wouldn't bother rolling in the first place.
Edymnion
09-15-05, 03:19 PM It could be that someone, something or some artifact gave him the equivilent of warforged psionics. Good hypnosis would make anyone charisamtic. Especialy if you don't think anyone can change your mind.He has Artificer levels. He could easily use a spell storing infusion for a charisma boosting spell, or hypnotise, or something along those lines.

Also, don't forget that the LoB in 5N is also statted as having an 18 Charisma. It could just be that his Juggernaught levels (which we already know are non-standard because of his blades instead of spikes) only killed his compassionate side, leaving only his hate and anger and malice in place.

You would be surprised how utterly cruel and vicious someone can be, even if they aren't normally, if you just strip away their compassion for other living beings.
makeshiftwings
09-15-05, 03:21 PM Well, in a way, that's kind of a problem with a lot of d&d and its ideas of charisma and beauty... it always seems to be based on human perspectives and ideals, with a rathered scattered approach to what alien mindsets would be like.

The LoB and the Juggernaut class could seem emotionless and robotic to humans, but to a bunch of machines who are advocating machine superiority and the destruction of the human (oid) race, the Juggernaut is an idol, a perfect physical and mental form to be strived for.

I guess the explanation of the Juggernaut doesn't fit the LoB perfectly, but it would seem silly for him to not take it when that's the life he's trying to promote as perfect to all his followers. And I don't think the Juggernaut class makes you completely boring and emotionless, it's surely had some effect on him, but perhaps more along the lines of eliminating his conscience and sense of guilt, while still leaving remnants of his stronger feelings of pride and anger.
polt
09-15-05, 03:23 PM Or perhaps he's just is SO charismatic his Jug. levels aint holding him back.

I mean, he is supposed to be a character who just as well could've been a player character.
Rogue Newb
09-15-05, 03:27 PM Or maybe the LoBster is himself a servant, of Arean d'Cannith. Who is running the whole show in the Mournland and has convinced all the warforged to serve him because his is there creator, or maybe he has found a way to take over constructs and uses LoB and his lesser commanders and lends them his CHA for controlling the army =)
Pearce
09-15-05, 05:04 PM Let's be realistic here too...according to the writeup, he has a -5 to most Charisma checks due to his Juggernaut levels. He has an 18 Charisma...this leaves him at a net -1. Assuming that he put ranks into Diplomacy every level that could net him 6.5 ranks cross classed and I believe that the Artificer could get Diplomacy as a class skill (not sure on that part.)

Also, he has Artificer levels...have you seen the cost to create a Circlet of Persuasion? It's a low level/cost item that would net another +3 to all Charisma skills.

So even as a Juggernaut, it's not exceedingly difficult to be diplomatic, it's just tougher. Keep in mind too that while Juggernauts are reserved as they ascend what they consider to be construct perfection, they never become anything besides living constructs, they're distancing themselves from the living races, not actually becoming robots. The true fanatical Juggernauts may take the distance to an extreme but they're still not full constructs.
Just another user
09-15-05, 05:57 PM As a partly unrelated note, I never understood why, for example, dwaves should get a malus to charisma with othere dwarves, paradoxically you could have that a dwarf (or goblin) would be more easily persuaded to do something from a human or elf than from one of his own race.
I rule that racial bonus to Cha don't count for members of your own race, the LoB case could be similiar.
WarforgedCanuck
09-15-05, 08:07 PM It's not just a hit to the Charisma stat. The text of the Warforged Juggernaut PrC states that the character becomes less and less emotional and humanoid-like with every level of Construct Perfection, and more and more like a Construct. And the LoB is specifically written in up in Five Nations to be, well, a bit emotional. Hateful, meglomanical, ambitious, glory-seeking, etc. All of these things are emotion-based. And, if he's a Juggernaut, he just doesn't have the emotion to base it on.

Well, yes. He's obviously not, given the way he's written. But given the rules regarding the Warforged Juggernaut PrC, he oughta be. I don't intend to run the LoB this way IMC, I'm just wondering how it's rationalized.

They do indeed become less emotional, but your really picking up on the construct heritage, not to mention a part of his charisma is that if a warforged comes to them and doesnt go with the whole "Kill All Humans" dogma, he destroys them. His word is law to his people, the fact of him rumored to have a creation forge also would put him as a leader with concern but also as a general who needs soldiers. I wonder honestly if his forges are where the warforged chargers came from.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
UncleScrewtape 09-14-05, 02:22 PM	It's possible this question's been asked and answered, but I've been browsing for a while and seen nothing. The Lord of Blades is depicted as a charismatic leader of Warforged, who gives firey speeches and leads his men by appealing to their metal-and-darkwood hearts. But he's got 5 levels of Warforged Juggernaut, which states that the character becomes more robotic and less human with each level of Construct Perfection. So, where's the LoB's charismatic leadership coming from, if he's more construct than sentient?
Rake 09-14-05, 02:42 PM	Would you find a robot to be charismatic? Of course not. Would a robot find you to be charismatic? Of course not. Would a robot find a robot to be charismatic? Aha... perhaps! And sure, the 'forged take a Charisma hit... but the Gatekeeper orcs take a hit to Wis, the halfling barbarians take a hit to Str, and the dwarven artificers take a hit to Cha. shrugs
polt 09-14-05, 02:59 PM	He is NOT a robot. And I think people would find him charismatic too. In the way that he would look very scary. People would fear him, while some warforged would admire him.
DarkWarriorKarg 09-14-05, 04:17 PM	Maybe he's got a spokesperson... To bring up a rather well-known example, Moses was a stutterer. Aaron was the speachgiver.
UncleScrewtape 09-14-05, 04:47 PM	Would you find a robot to be charismatic? Of course not. Would a robot find you to be charismatic? Of course not. Would a robot find a robot to be charismatic? Aha... perhaps! And sure, the 'forged take a Charisma hit... but the Gatekeeper orcs take a hit to Wis, the halfling barbarians take a hit to Str, and the dwarven artificers take a hit to Cha. shrugs It's not just a hit to the Charisma stat. The text of the Warforged Juggernaut PrC states that the character becomes less and less emotional and humanoid-like with every level of Construct Perfection, and more and more like a Construct. And the LoB is specifically written in up in Five Nations to be, well, a bit emotional. Hateful, meglomanical, ambitious, glory-seeking, etc. All of these things are emotion-based. And, if he's a Juggernaut, he just doesn't have the emotion to base it on. He is NOT a robot. Well, yes. He's obviously not, given the way he's written. But given the rules regarding the Warforged Juggernaut PrC, he oughta be. I don't intend to run the LoB this way IMC, I'm just wondering how it's rationalized.
Hair Wax 09-14-05, 06:53 PM	Bear in mind that the stats in 5n aren't the only stats. They'll undoubtedly print more and different examples. Maybe the next one will reflect him as more charismatic than this one.
travellersside 09-15-05, 05:25 AM	With me, he's a Charisma-focused Bard/Marshal. No more. He's good at the social skills and has high ranks in Perform: Oratory. As far as amazing combat skills go, even a Wizard 10 has a higher BAB and more hitpoints than a warrior 3, so yes, he's good in a fight, just not a powerhouse. He's far better at leading the troops, which he will do well And the most important bit, as far as I'm concerned - He's the Lord of Blades. His most powerful followers are all named after... Bladed weapons. That's where he gets his name from, not from a bunch of sharp things nailed to his body. It's the difference between him being a good leader and a good fighter. If he's working on building a small nation, with some success I might add, his ability to kill things has to come second to his ability to get others to do what he wants.
Deadguy 09-15-05, 08:03 AM	Bear in mind that the stats in 5n aren't the only stats. They'll undoubtedly print more and different examples. Maybe the next one will reflect him as more charismatic than this one. Yup! I like to think that the Lord of Blades that we have already seen is the violent front for the 'real' LoB who acts as a 'mere' advisor and is the real powerhouse of the Mournland. The Juggernaut is used to impress 'forged wo like to see military might.
polt 09-15-05, 10:31 AM	But like another guy said, the ones in 5N is just one way to do it. Perhaps we'll someday see a LoB cleric or bard. Or just a plain fighter. Maybe an NPC class LoB.
Salla 09-15-05, 12:50 PM	As a great person once said ... "The secret to diplomacy is telling people what they want to hear." Since he's telling these disaffected Warforged what they want to hear, his DCs are nauseatingly low (if they're even required). Even the LoB can hit a DC 5 Diplomacy check if the WF he's talking to was just freed from virtual slave labor in Karrn by the LoB's agents.
gotan 09-15-05, 12:56 PM	It could be that someone, something or some artifact gave him the equivilent of warforged psionics. Good hypnosis would make anyone charisamtic. Especialy if you don't think anyone can change your mind.
UncleScrewtape 09-15-05, 03:09 PM	Since he's telling these disaffected Warforged what they want to hear, his DCs are nauseatingly low (if they're even required). Even the LoB can hit a DC 5 Diplomacy check if the WF he's talking to was just freed from virtual slave labor in Karrn by the LoB's agents. To reiterate: I am not talking about mechanics here. I'm talking about flavor-to-flavor comparisons. In the Juggernaut class, it says that the 'Forged becomes more and more robotic, displaying fewer sentient characteristics and more construct ones. The the LoB material, it talks about having very sentient motivations and doing very sentient things. My argument isn't that he couldn't make the DC 5 Diplomacy check, my argument is that he wouldn't bother rolling in the first place.
Edymnion 09-15-05, 03:19 PM	It could be that someone, something or some artifact gave him the equivilent of warforged psionics. Good hypnosis would make anyone charisamtic. Especialy if you don't think anyone can change your mind.He has Artificer levels. He could easily use a spell storing infusion for a charisma boosting spell, or hypnotise, or something along those lines. Also, don't forget that the LoB in 5N is also statted as having an 18 Charisma. It could just be that his Juggernaught levels (which we already know are non-standard because of his blades instead of spikes) only killed his compassionate side, leaving only his hate and anger and malice in place. You would be surprised how utterly cruel and vicious someone can be, even if they aren't normally, if you just strip away their compassion for other living beings.
makeshiftwings 09-15-05, 03:21 PM	Well, in a way, that's kind of a problem with a lot of d&d and its ideas of charisma and beauty... it always seems to be based on human perspectives and ideals, with a rathered scattered approach to what alien mindsets would be like. The LoB and the Juggernaut class could seem emotionless and robotic to humans, but to a bunch of machines who are advocating machine superiority and the destruction of the human (oid) race, the Juggernaut is an idol, a perfect physical and mental form to be strived for. I guess the explanation of the Juggernaut doesn't fit the LoB perfectly, but it would seem silly for him to not take it when that's the life he's trying to promote as perfect to all his followers. And I don't think the Juggernaut class makes you completely boring and emotionless, it's surely had some effect on him, but perhaps more along the lines of eliminating his conscience and sense of guilt, while still leaving remnants of his stronger feelings of pride and anger.
polt 09-15-05, 03:23 PM	Or perhaps he's just is SO charismatic his Jug. levels aint holding him back. I mean, he is supposed to be a character who just as well could've been a player character.
Rogue Newb 09-15-05, 03:27 PM	Or maybe the LoBster is himself a servant, of Arean d'Cannith. Who is running the whole show in the Mournland and has convinced all the warforged to serve him because his is there creator, or maybe he has found a way to take over constructs and uses LoB and his lesser commanders and lends them his CHA for controlling the army =)
Pearce 09-15-05, 05:04 PM	Let's be realistic here too...according to the writeup, he has a -5 to most Charisma checks due to his Juggernaut levels. He has an 18 Charisma...this leaves him at a net -1. Assuming that he put ranks into Diplomacy every level that could net him 6.5 ranks cross classed and I believe that the Artificer could get Diplomacy as a class skill (not sure on that part.) Also, he has Artificer levels...have you seen the cost to create a Circlet of Persuasion? It's a low level/cost item that would net another +3 to all Charisma skills. So even as a Juggernaut, it's not exceedingly difficult to be diplomatic, it's just tougher. Keep in mind too that while Juggernauts are reserved as they ascend what they consider to be construct perfection, they never become anything besides living constructs, they're distancing themselves from the living races, not actually becoming robots. The true fanatical Juggernauts may take the distance to an extreme but they're still not full constructs.
Just another user 09-15-05, 05:57 PM	As a partly unrelated note, I never understood why, for example, dwaves should get a malus to charisma with othere dwarves, paradoxically you could have that a dwarf (or goblin) would be more easily persuaded to do something from a human or elf than from one of his own race. I rule that racial bonus to Cha don't count for members of your own race, the LoB case could be similiar.
WarforgedCanuck 09-15-05, 08:07 PM	It's not just a hit to the Charisma stat. The text of the Warforged Juggernaut PrC states that the character becomes less and less emotional and humanoid-like with every level of Construct Perfection, and more and more like a Construct. And the LoB is specifically written in up in Five Nations to be, well, a bit emotional. Hateful, meglomanical, ambitious, glory-seeking, etc. All of these things are emotion-based. And, if he's a Juggernaut, he just doesn't have the emotion to base it on. Well, yes. He's obviously not, given the way he's written. But given the rules regarding the Warforged Juggernaut PrC, he oughta be. I don't intend to run the LoB this way IMC, I'm just wondering how it's rationalized. They do indeed become less emotional, but your really picking up on the construct heritage, not to mention a part of his charisma is that if a warforged comes to them and doesnt go with the whole "Kill All Humans" dogma, he destroys them. His word is law to his people, the fact of him rumored to have a creation forge also would put him as a leader with concern but also as a general who needs soldiers. I wonder honestly if his forges are where the warforged chargers came from.