Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bubba333 04-20-05, 08:20 PM	So, what do my fellow Eberron fans think of Lords of Madness? I skimmed through and it seemed nifty (aren't slime-covered aberrations always cool? ;)). The big curiosity is if it's got good fluff for Eberron? I like aberrations in general but also want some cool backdrop material. Does this book have it?
DarkWarriorKarg 04-20-05, 10:16 PM	So, what do my fellow Eberron fans think of Lords of Madness? I skimmed through and it seemed nifty (aren't slime-covered aberrations always cool? ;)). The big curiosity is if it's got good fluff for Eberron? I like aberrations in general but also want some cool backdrop material. Does this book have it? Basically, everything except the creature historys can be used.
Kalanth 04-21-05, 12:57 AM	The only Eberron specific thing I noticed in there was the difference between origins, noting that Eberron Aberations came from Xoriat, instead of the way the books primary description is laid out. Otherwise, anything can be used on Eberron that is in the book, it is written neutral enough that you wont even notice.
deClench 04-21-05, 01:09 AM	I love the book. There doesn't seem to be anything SPECIFICALLY written for Eberron if that's what your asking, but the book is essentially a "Manual of Xoriat." I haven't finished it yet, but I envision being able to use nearly everything in the book in my Eberron campaign. That's the beauty of the Dragon Below. I can see the tsochar being a terrible menace in my Sharn as puppetmasters -- setting up potential conflict with the Dreaming Dark. The aboleth and their underwater cities in the Thunder Sea and along the northern coast of Xen'drik being worshipped by sahuaguin(sp?) and/or kua-toa. I like the neogi, but am not sure yet where I'd put them; as they're slavers, I see them rounding up "merchandise" in Xen'drik or the Talenta Plains or the Blade Desert for some reason. Either of which could allow for collaberations/altercations with psurlons (the artwork for which looks incredible). I've also been wanting to incorporate some of the "Far Realm" material as part of Xoriat and so the half-farspawn will prove invaluable. That's just the tip of the asylum! I need to spend a good deal more time with the book, but I would be surprised if there is much in there that can't be easily translated into Eberron.
Bubba333 04-21-05, 05:34 AM	Thanks all, that is SO awesome! I'm getting this book!
Magagumo 04-21-05, 08:37 AM	Neogi function very well as acquisitors of rare goods from Sarlona, Seren, or even Argonnessen- that these goods might include "indentured servants" from Seren tribes is a small matter for those willing to acquire cheap labor in the "no slaves" world of Khorvaire- Neogi are liekly rare and few people have heard or seen them, but the right back alley in Sharn will lead to an entire neogi trading bazaar. If you have the goods (and the willingness to pay 2-3x market price) these Merchants have what you're looking for. The aboleths' claim to predating all other creatures is an interesting one, given Eberron's "dragon" creation myth. If you wish to retain that essence, perhaps make them primarily "Stygian" (i.e. cold resistant through certain templates) and existing in the icy oceans of Risia. Mind Flayer history defintely gets discarded for Eberron. Grell fit well both in jungle lairs (perhaps in the forests around Sharn and the warren of Dhakanni catacaombs beneath the city?). Tsochar can be anywhere... v. creepy, great for Cult of Dragon Below Cults. Beholders's history (with a the Lord of Eyes {Daelkyr Lord} subbed for the Great Mother) works fine. Fantastic book- I'm using it as I run the 2nd ed. "Labyrinth of Madness" dungeon in the Plane of Xoriat w/ gestalt characters (full of craziness and slaughter, good fun I tell you). As for the PrC, I recommend keeping abolishers for the Gatekeepers, and letting the other ones stay out (too many anti-abberation Prc classes makes it seem like a united and powerful front repels Aberration plans; I find this weakens the darker themes of Eberron). Just my 2 crowns. One other note, my book's binding fell apart after a few days time, this happen to anyone else?
lugnut71 04-21-05, 10:35 AM	My binding isn't very good but isn't falling apart yet. I'm not really worried though as I tend to treat my books well.
AvonRekaes 04-21-05, 12:03 PM	I read through the book in a very short amount of time, devouring all the information as I went. I was a bit dissapointed that there wasn't an Eberron sidebar for each abberation race's origin, instead of one giant cop-out. ("All aberrations were made by Daelkyr"). As for the prestige classes, I thought that most were okay to fit in. As different organizations, they don't necessarily have to work together. The Topaz Guardian for instance, might be a sect of the Silver Flame, but might be too stuck up or zealous for the Keepers of the Sign (The sign would be fitting for a design change to make it more eberron specific). As for the Sanctified Mind... a hefty dose of flavor change and some minor differences.... check out my post on the Enlightened Mind PrC: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=413883
DarkerDreams 04-21-05, 01:13 PM	deClench; the description of Xoriat was lifted almost wholesale from everything said about the far relm since (before) the tome and blood... which is good because it helps slide such things into eberron (on a trail of goo)... Magagumo; maybe aboleths are some of the first residents of eberron, as twisted by the delkyr... after all, we have twisted humans, twisted hobgoblins... why not? ;-)
Siran Dunmorgan 04-21-05, 01:27 PM	I bought my copy from a local game store for a 10% discount because it shipped with a cracked binding; they had another one where the back binding had failed completely. Does anyone else see the irony in a failing binding for aberrations? Maybe they're trying to tell us something... The print run for these was what? 10,000 copies? I suspect that if all of the bindings fail... something gets loose that ought not be loose in the world. :coolcthul ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Magagumo's comment on the origin and memories of aboleths brings up an interesting point: given that they remember back to the beginning, well... what do they really know? One alternative is that in aboleth <memory | lore>, the progenitors were aboleths, not dragons. That would certainly color things differently. Another, rather intriguing alternative is that the daelkyr made the aboleths complete with implanted memories. In this scenario, different 'lines' of aboleths 'remember' different things about history. I can easily see incredible undersea wars between aboleth cities inhabited by different 'lines' over their competing interpretations of the past[1]. It's the sort of thing the daelkyr would consider light comedy, like a cartoon drawn in aberrant minds and flesh. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ With respect to the history of the mind flayers, the history as given may not be too far off of the truth: with the aberrant time-flow of Xoriat, the mind flayers may indeed remember the future with all the certainty that less aberrant races remember the past: alternatively, they may remember the future of a different world than Eberron, and be working to bring their glorious empire to the wrong world. Again, a daelkyr poem written in life. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Which brings us to the neogi. They have a trade empire, aye, but it is not unlikely that their primary trade routes are throughout Khyber, rather than across the hide of the Dragon Between. The spider ships may be tunnel-crawlers, rather than flying vessels, though there might be voids within Khyber where flight was possible. Such underworld trade routes would give them the ability to appear and establish trade on the surface wherever there was a passage to Khyber, such as in Droaam or the Demon Wastes. They may still serve the daelkyr directly, gathering objects and beings from across Eberron and Khyber to bring before their masters, the ultimate 'owners' of the neogi. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ All in all, I've had my copy of Lords of Madness for only five days, and I'm still digesting most of it. Most of the prestige classes will be quite at home in Eberron; I fancy the idea of Khyber-dwelling gnome Darkrunners[2], for example, or the notion that the Cerulean Sign is a fusion of the Gatekeeper and Maruk Ghaash'kala traditions. The only concern I have here is that the Abolisher Prestige Class seems a bit redundant with the array of abilities possessed by Gatekeeper Initiates and Eldeen Rangers of the Gatekeeper sect; however, if one replaces the 'Circle of the True' with the Gatekeepers... perhaps it represents a way for non-druid, non-rangers to join the Gatekeepers. —Siran Dunmorgan [1] And, every once in a while, that rare aboleth who swallows its pride and goes and investigates, to discover—rather than simply remember—the truth. Such creatures might make astonishing and potent patrons for our heroes. [2] My assumption is that the gnomes of Khyber are still very much the same species as their Eberron-dwelling kin, with much the same abilities, and not the "Svirfneblin" of the Monster Manual. Note that the Earth Elemental Call of the original Advanced Dungeons & Dragons deep gnomes—sadly lacking in the 3.x core rules—resonates strongly with the elemental bindings practiced in Zilargo; perhaps it could be modeled as the deep gnomes 'releasing' the elemental from a Khyber dragonshard.
Dragom 04-21-05, 02:00 PM	The histories aren't entirely garbage. Most Abberstions aren't from Xoriat. They where made by the Daelkyr who are abberation (outsider) 's. And for keeping colour we can say that Skum where either made by Aboleths who stole a little high learning from the Daelkyr who made them, or where made initially FOR the Aboleths and they since learned how to do for themselves. One ould also say that Cthuul are a creation of the mad Transmuter in droam. That keeps their history. So forth and so on.
Tengu1958 04-21-05, 04:01 PM	I think that in my Eberron campaign the Daelkyr captured some dragons and modified them. The result being Aboleths. I think it could be fitting.
talion09 04-21-05, 04:23 PM	1. About the original post. I think it fits pretty well, with a little twisting of the histories. I had doubt's about Neogi's, but modifying the ships to crawlers and space to khyber works pretty well, and actually fits really well with the umber hulk angle... (thanks to Siran for that one) 2. The spine/binding of mine is okay, and I've been carting it around in a backpack to my games. 3. The timing worked out really well, since I was driving my eberron campaign towards a darker, more Lovecraftian tone anyways. I had ended up re-reading a lot of Lovecraft for a 20th century fiction class, and that led me to playing Eternal Darkness (Gamecube horror game) again, and inserting a changeling warlock into Sharn high society. Who incidently masquerades as a member of the ir'Tain family but really serves a Daelkyr lord... and who is really the driving force behind the race for the schema in the official adventures... and he ended up being "rescued" by the PCs and then became their patron...
AvonRekaes 04-21-05, 06:34 PM	You know, this whole thing about neogi's "space trading" turned into "kyber trading" got me thinking. Remember way back in the beginning of Eberron's debute, people were confused as to whether Khyber was a sperate plane of existance or merely the underdark? What if it was a seperate plane, and that if you go deep enough into the world, suddenly a vast expanse of stars greets you. A character with some kind of depth sense would know that they are still miles below the surface, but one without would be confused as all hell, thinking they surfaced somehow. Almost has a hollow world feel to it, but instead of just being a world, it's a whole friggin expanse of space.... I think that might be really cool for the "big reveal" in a game where the PCs venture into Khyber to defeat a Dealkyr Lord or somesuch...
Dragom 04-21-05, 07:53 PM	I think that in my Eberron campaign the Daelkyr captured some dragons and modified them. The result being Aboleths. I think it could be fitting. But aboleths aren't very dragon shaped... Their fish shaped. No doubt it took a lot of work to get an engine of cold hearted leperous evil that can work and spread independantly and without adult supervision out of a flounder but that's the kind of thing that the Daelkyr enjoy doing to help the millenia pass by.
lugnut71 04-22-05, 01:58 AM	And Chuul aren't gnome shaped but in Eberron that is where they come from. The shape hardly matters to the daelkyr. They are mad.
Gez 04-22-05, 03:51 AM	And Chuul aren't gnome shaped but in Eberron that is where they come from. No they don't. Sheesh. With people like you, Keith Baker just is not allowed to joke, is he? :P
The White Sorcerer 04-22-05, 04:19 AM	Does the fleshwarper prestige class remind anyone else of Mordain?
Fevil 04-22-05, 06:35 AM	Does the fleshwarper prestige class remind anyone else of Mordain? So much so that he is now a Master Fleshcrafter in my campaign.
Tengu1958 04-22-05, 10:30 AM	But aboleths aren't very dragon shaped... Their fish shaped. No doubt it took a lot of work to get an engine of cold hearted leperous evil that can work and spread independantly and without adult supervision out of a flounder but that's the kind of thing that the Daelkyr enjoy doing to help the millenia pass by. Lugnut71 picked up on my thoughts exactly. The Daelkyr are mad and do as they please. They took the masters of the sky, Dragons and made them masters of the deep, Aboleths. A very twisted sense sense of humor. Which is why I would do it.
Altaris 04-22-05, 10:48 AM	So much so that he is now a Master Fleshcrafter in my campaign. Yep, I thought of that too. I've really enjoyed the LoM book so far. I've read through the PrC and feat sections, and through the beginning. I'm still working on actual creature entries though. Luckily, my book seems to be in excellent condition. The binding is holding together pretty well.
krocha 04-22-05, 11:12 AM	Most of the prestige classes will be quite at home in Eberron; I fancy the idea of Khyber-dwelling gnome Darkrunners[2], for example, or the notion that the Cerulean Sign is a fusion of the Gatekeeper and Maruk Ghaash'kala traditions. By removing reference to the Darkrunners Guild, the Darkrunner PrC fits perfect for a Drow PC from Xen'drik.
Siran Dunmorgan 04-22-05, 12:10 PM	What if it was a seperate plane, and that if you go deep enough into the world, suddenly a vast expanse of stars greets you. A character with some kind of depth sense would know that they are still miles below the surface, but one without would be confused as all hell, thinking they surfaced somehow. Almost has a hollow world feel to it, but instead of just being a world, it's a whole friggin expanse of space.... I think that might be really cool for the "big reveal" in a game where the PCs venture into Khyber to defeat a Daelkyr Lord or somesuch... This is a traditional concept in real-world occult studies: read R. J. Stewart's The UnderWorld Initiation (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0850303990) for a comprehensive example: the candidate for Initiation passes through a series of trials/images as they enter the UnderWorld, and eventually emerge into a realm of seas and stars, in a reflection of the principle that 'as above, so below.' ======================================== Which—although it's off-topic for this thread—reminds me: when a question of physics appears on this board, there are innumerable calculator- or MATLAB-armed savants who leap immediately into the discussion, describing how things just do or don't (depending on the discussion) work that way in the real world; but when someone brings up a point of occult studies—there was a very insightful question about astrology a few weeks ago, for example—no one responds[1]. Is it just that no one here has done any actual occult studies—something, incidentally, that I find hard to believe—or that no one is willing to admit to it, remembering the anti-Dungeons & Dragons campaigns of the eighties? ======================================== Back on topic, the idea of aboleths as aberrant dragons is interesting: it would certainly explain their arrogance; if they retained in full the ancestral memories of their dragon forebears, then aye... they might indeed remember the world before the gods. I'm not partial to the idea myself: I suspect that the daelkyr put together several different creatures to assemble the aboleths, primarily fish and mollusks. I would have said mollusks entirely, were it not that aboleths have a well-defined skeleton. —Siran Dunmorgan [1] I would have liked to have seen more on astrology in Eberron. The astrological depth of a world that has effectively thirteen planets—I could make a case for fifteen, possibly more—and only eleven signs would be absolutely fascinating.
lugnut71 04-22-05, 12:17 PM	No they don't. Sheesh. With people like you, Keith Baker just is not allowed to joke, is he? :P And I'm not allowed to joke in return :D