Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kildaere007 06-15-04, 03:49 AM	I first need to say that I LOVE Eberron and I really like the world that is being developed, but the information on locations in ECS leaves a lot to be desired... ...I know they need to leave room to expand things and see which area's catch in the imagination of the players...but there is a lot less location information than I would have liked. My favorite things in a new campaign setting are the "fluff" stuff...location descriptions and maps... there are TONS (more than 1/2 I would imagine) of the locations labeled on the map have NO information in the corresponding chapter (for example the first geography chapter on Aundair has no listings for: Wrogar Keep, Lathleer (a large town), Tower Valient, Tower Vigilant, bluevine, Otharaunt, Wry, Windshire, Ghalt, Marketplace, and Vanguard Keep)...a short paragraph (a few sentences on each) would have been ok....but now I am left to fend for myself (which is ok....I would have just prefered more geography info for my $40) The worst part though are the maps....ARGHHHH! I cant believe that there is no Big fold out map...and most of the problems below would have been fixed with a "big" map (they just simply would not have occured)....I am understanding of the need to keep the already big price tag down. So they split up the maps...and while I know (assume?) that they were not designed separately...it sure feels like it. I am SOOOO frustrated at trying to match up roads and figure out how to get from place to place. (something that WAS a selling point of this world)...I just can't believe that they missed all this stuff. Here is a list of problems I found with the maps upon closer examinination: Aundair 1.The Lightning rail track south of Marketplace on the way to Sword Keep does not line up. 2.The Crying Fields and Starpeaks Observatory are not labeled on the map. Breland 3.The road leading from Marketplace in Aundair to Cragwar does not show on the Breland map. 4. The Fort South East of Wroat is not named 5. The road leading from Arcanix is missing. 6. The road from The Gathering Stone in Darguun (from the freaking capital Rhukaan Draal!) doesn’t show on the map…it should show exiting the Margul Pass at Sterngate. 7. The road and presumably a great bridge does not show between Xandrar and Erlaskar which is nearly across from it. (the road shows on the Eldeen Reaches Map). Droaam 8. The road South from Sylbaran is missing. (the road shows on the Eldeen Reaches Map) The Mournland 9. Where is the road that comes from Lyrenton? I assume it was mostly destroyed…but it shows on the map of Darguun and it would be nice to know maybe what ruins it goes near….? It is just crazy that in order to see the broken road in the Mournlands I have to look on the Darguun Map. 10. Lyrenton is in fact inside the Dead-Gray Mist (compare the mournland and Darguun maps)…at first I thought that Lyrenton might be one of the unlabled ruins on the Field of Ruins but none of them are in the correct place…weird. 11. On the Breland map the lightning rail is clearly shown to the south of the road leading from Vathirond, but on the Mournland map, the lightning rail is to the north of the road…oops. Mror Holds 12. Why does Korunda’s Gate have a different symbol (and one that is not in the Legend on 133) what does it represent? I like the world and am anxious to play....just surprised that parts are so empty of information or sloppily thrown together.
Moog Haruk Toog 06-15-04, 05:35 AM	1. I will give you because the rail north out of Breland is headed straight into that grove of trees in the SW corner of Thraine. 2. Perhaps they are not labeled, but do you have any doubt as to where they are based on descriptions? Really? 3. Yes it does, look really close. 4. True. Possibly the hideout of the Jungle Boys? 5. This one is true as well. 6. This one is true. 7. It is covered by the word "Xandrar". 8. That one is a tough call. I think that that road lies right on the border between Droaam and Breland. It snakes out of Sylbaran around Silver Lake straight down towards the Graywall Mountains. It meets the road from Ardev to Graywall. I think the road IS the boarder, and wouldn't be on either map. I looked at this one for quite some time... 9. If you look at the maps of Darguun and Valenar and pay special attention to the topography, you can tell that the road went from Lyrenton to Griffonclaw, passing over what is now the glass plateu and through the ruin that is right in the elbow. 10. Not unplausible. A city on the edge of haulocaust. Especially right on the edge of a battlefield littered with undecaying corpses. I think I would prefer being forever shrouded rather than being able to see that. 11. And there is a couple hundred mile discrepancy as to their distance from the elbow of the Brey river. oops. I think having the road and the rail right next to eachother was more to signify that the caravans and lightning rail travel the same route... not that one ALWAYS travels north/south of the other. 12. I noticed that too. I think they orginially might have meant for that to signify the official 'seat' of a dragonmarked house, but scrapped the idea when they stuck a few in places like Sharn and Regalport. Then, when they decided against it, they forgot to replace that one. What really gets me about the Mror holds is how the monument on pg 26 isn't noted. Grrrr. I really hope someone else hasn't done this in the time I took to research and type this up...
Mula 06-15-04, 07:21 AM	Have you checked out the various sample NPCs? Talk about a need for an errata... here's a quick list of the things I can remember without my book at hand: - the Weretouched NPC lacks his alternate form class ability - the Excorcist of the SF deals too little damage with his smite evil - almost all of the sample clerics for the various faiths have mysteriously gained proficiency in certain martial weapons (scimitar for BoV, longbow for CotSF...) - the sample Gatekeeper Initiate druid doesn't have the Gatekeeper Initiate feat, even tho it is strongly implied in the book that every druid in Eberron should take the corresponding feat for their sect
ChronosCrow 06-15-04, 09:15 AM	Hellcow's reaction will most likely go something like this: When creating the ECS book they tried to make an assortment of things and unfortunatly you can only get so much put in 320 pages. Even with trying to cram it in there it won't be possible to get a whole world in there. More than likely there will be supplement books that will add to the world like FR does. There's like 14 extra books for FR to expand the world and I feel the FR book compared to the ECS is much smaller to ECS world content included.
Taigis 06-15-04, 12:42 PM	Originally posted by Moog Haruk Toog 2. Perhaps they are not labeled, but do you have any doubt as to where they are based on descriptions? Really? As far as the labelling issue goes. There are two things at work. First you have places that are described in the country overview but not indicated on the map in several of the countries. There are places described in the Shadow Marshes but not placed on the map. Some of this I think is keeping mystery. Some of this is to prevent map congestion. On the Aundair map, the fields are in an area with alot of labels already. I dont think any of these missing labels are errors. The other problem is with that little fort southeast of Wroat. Not every site is labelled. Most of the ruins aren't labeled. In some cases this can be dismissed with people forgetting the names. However, the Mourning just happened, so most of the ruins in the Mournlands should be remembered. 8. That one is a tough call. I think that that road lies right on the border between Droaam and Breland. It snakes out of Sylbaran around Silver Lake straight down towards the Graywall Mountains. It meets the road from Ardev to Graywall. I think the road IS the boarder, and wouldn't be on either map. I looked at this one for quite some time... To me, it looks like there is a good chunk of real estate that isn't on any map. The map of Droaam stops roughly at the eastern end of the Byeshk Mountains and goes down to the northern end of the Graywall Mountains.. The Breland map stops just east of the western end of Silver lake and extends in a line to the Graywall Mountains. The Eldeen reaches map only extends down to a line between the Byeshk Mountains and Silver lake. This leaves a triangular piece of land that doesn't appear on any map. The road from Sylbaran goes straight into this area. 9. If you look at the maps of Darguun and Valenar and pay special attention to the topography, you can tell that the road went from Lyrenton to Griffonclaw, passing over what is now the glass plateu and through the ruin that is right in the elbow. Im not sure I agree. It looks like it might go from Lyrenton to Taer Valinor. But that it doesnt exist on the Mournlands map is very annoying. However, maybe its the road that appears going south around Lake Cyre from Gatherhold in Talenta, so you could be right about Griffinclaw. 10. Not unplausible. A city on the edge of haulocaust. Especially right on the edge of a battlefield littered with undecaying corpses. I think I would prefer being forever shrouded rather than being able to see that. Comparing the maps of the Mournlands, Darguun and Valenar, it appears quite clear that Taer Valinor and Stonefeather Spire in Valenar are clearly within the borders defined by the Dead Gray Mists. It is also clear that Tyrenton and Gorgonhorn are also within this border as well. The following locations are close to the border but are clearly outside of it: Olkhaan has a great view of the Mists right at their doorstep. So does Vathirond in Breland. 12. I noticed that too. I think they orginially might have meant for that to signify the official 'seat' of a dragonmarked house, but scrapped the idea when they stuck a few in places like Sharn and Regalport. Then, when they decided against it, they forgot to replace that one. What really gets me about the Mror holds is how the monument on pg 26 isn't noted. Grrrr. I want more details on that monument too! What a great and inspiring picture. Re: the symbol for Korunda's Gate, I thought the symbol looks like a "gate." Id like to know about it too. Other map weirdness that I found: A. The road going from Nathyrr out of Thrane into Breland, doesn't appear on the Breland map. B. Comparing the maps of Thrane, Breland and Aundair, we see that Fort Light (in Thrane) is right next to Marketplace (in Aundair). The Thrane map shows no indication of the lightning rail that should be coming from Breland going into Aundair (the one that doesnt line up correctly between those two maps). C. The road leading from Flamekeep west should come into Lathleer. It should appear just north of its name, however the road is missing on the Aundair map. D. As a minor quibble, the road going from Varna (in the Eldeen Reaches on its respective map) east into Aundair doesn't line up with the same road on the Aundair map. E. On the Karrnath map, the lightning rail going into the Mror Holds doesnt line up correctly with the Mror map. The Karrnath map also indicates a road, while the Mror map doesn't show that road. F. Comparing the Valenar, Mournland and Talenta map, there is a piece of land just south of Lake Cyre which includes the western end of the short jut of land on the south side that doesn't appear on any map. This may be where that missing road through the Mournlands should be. Despite this nitpicking, I think the maps are great. I'm a huge fan of maps. One of the first things I do when I pick up a fantasy novel is to see if it includes a map. If it doesn't have one I have a hard time getting into it. I also look at how realistic the landscape appears on the map. I have to say that the maps in the ECSB are some of the best looking that I have seen in a D&D product. The coastlines and landforms look very realistic. I think most of the problems between the maps are due to the fact that they were done independently from each other. It looks like one person did one map and another person did another map. They shared some of the same notes. ("A road goes from this city west into this territory") But between the maps the detail of exactly how the road flows gets contradicted especially at the borders. Taigis
protonik 06-15-04, 01:19 PM	Well, the BIG poster map in the upcoming Dungeon should solve your problems with the maps in Eberron... J
Rulandor 06-15-04, 02:32 PM	What poster map in what Dungeon issue? Certainly not in issue 113, or will there be one? There es no mentioning in the table of contents for that issue. :(
N'wah 06-15-04, 03:21 PM	Originally posted by Rulandor What poster map in what Dungeon issue? Certainly not in issue 113, or will there be one? There es no mentioning in the table of contents for that issue. :( Are you looking on Paizo's website? Because they've created some confusion- apparently they listed Dungeon 114's adventures instead of 113 on the site. Or maybe there IS no issue 113... like some kind of corporate conspiracy thing. You look on the site for backissues of it and are redirected to the CIA homepage; searches online for people who have the issue yeilds lists of "suicides" and "accidents"; when asked about it, Hellcow "disappears" only to reappear months later as a dairy farmer in Wisconsin... Bust out the ol' Dark*Matter books, boys. Looks like the Masons and the Final Church are here for the picnic, and Mothman brought sandwiches. :D
kildaere007 06-15-04, 03:38 PM	That is GREAT to hear, that there will be a BIG map in an upcoming Dungeon Mag. I bet that will be a hot issue. Do we know for sure (Hellbovine...can you confirm which one) and more importantly...will it be a pretty map of the world (mostly useless, we have several of these)..or will it be a full detailed map of Khorvaire (which we REALLY REALLY need). I am anxious to see all the locations on one map relative to each other. The way they are now, you could be right next to a major point of interest and not know it, because it lies in the faded area that indicates another map area. This also is the cause of much of the map problems. The labled and unlabled stuff is nitpicky, and I can live with. But the roads, lightning rail, and city/fort location problems are a bit more troubling. I would like to congratulate Dennis Kauth and Rob Lazzaretti for illustrating some beautiful maps that unfortunately have some issues :sad:. Here is a hint on how to do the maps in the future (and actually how they should have been done...it would have saved on time and duplication too). CREATE ONE MAP, will ALL the features on it, and then for each section, screen back (in photoshop or what ever illustration software you are using) the surrounding area...you will end up with the same illustration effect you have now (with the discussed area in full color and the surrounded area faded back)....beautiful...it would look just like the maps you gave us...but you would be able to see the surrounding features. and if a lable is in a bad spot, move it or delete it, but at least the integrity of the map features will be intact. I will be happy to get a fully detailed map, but I am slightly miffed that I have to buy a magazine to get (not just a whole map) but a correct one.
Moog Haruk Toog 06-15-04, 04:17 PM	Originally posted by Taigis Im not sure I agree. It looks like it might go from Lyrenton to Taer Valinor. But that it doesnt exist on the Mournlands map is very annoying. However, maybe its the road that appears going south around Lake Cyre from Gatherhold in Talenta, so you could be right about Griffinclaw. Taigis This one I am quite sure about. Look at the map of Darguun. The road doesn't merely stop as it passes over the Glass Plateau. It is actually broken for a span of roughly 250 miles. Look to the southwest of the last n in "Gorgonhorn," you can see a piece of the road re-emerging on the far side of the plateu. There is another piece ~100 miles further northwest of that. The slight upturn that it has makes me think that it does, indeed, go to Griffonclaw and then meet up with the road out of Gatherhold as you suggest.
Incenjucar 06-15-04, 06:38 PM	Don't get your hopes up too high on this guys. The last time they had a big giant map in Dragon it was as out of sync as the Eberron one.
Ch@pel 06-15-04, 07:11 PM	Originally posted by Taigis However, the Mourning just happened, so most of the ruins in the Mournlands should be remembered. Isn't there something in the CSB saying that anyone near the Mourning when it happened, who wasn't killed, blacked out and can't remember anything about it? I really hope they don't botch the map in Dragon. If they leave out a large map in the CSB (Which really ought to have one) and then the print a sub-par one in Dragon, it would really be a kick in the pants to the loyal fans of a infant setting. Please don't screw us!!:(
Hellcow 06-15-04, 08:08 PM	Originally posted by Ch@pel Isn't there something in the CSB saying that anyone near the Mourning when it happened, who wasn't killed, blacked out and can't remember anything about it? Yes, but it doesn't affect their memory of what existed before the Mourning, and there are many Cyran refugees. Pluss, people have had some time to at least explore the edges of the Mournland, even if many explorers don't come back. It's a good point. Though for what it's worth, many of the structures in Cyre have been altered or destroyed. I don't have time to look into all of these issues myself at the moment, but I will get to it as soon as I can, and pass along problems to the people compiling the errata list. Thanks for your diligence and your patience.
Rauol_Duke 06-15-04, 08:49 PM	Originally posted by kildaere007 That is GREAT to hear, that there will be a BIG map in an upcoming Dungeon Mag. I bet that will be a hot issue. Do we know for sure Well, about a month ago, Erik Mona (Editor in Chief, Dungeon magazine) said on another board that there would be a big fold-out map of Eberron in issue #113. No other details were given at the time, but since issue #113 features Dungeon's first Eberron adventure "The Queen with the Burning Eyes" , it is a great place for a BIG map as well.
Euangelion 06-16-04, 01:16 AM	As far as errata goes, all that doesn't sound too bad. It can be fixed in future printings and through web releases. As long as the maps don't contain serious errors, such as the river that runs uphill in the old Greyhawk foldout map, I'm okay. But let's keep looking so that we can help fill out that errata list Hellcow mentioned.
Josh Wilhoyte 06-16-04, 09:14 AM	One point may be to consider, if these maps are considered "in game" then they may well be inaccurate. I am a mapper by trade, and maps routintely don't match up correctly at the edges, based on the projections they're in. I doubt a set up maps produced by people without modern technology would match any better (although if drawn by the same person, he'd likely cheat and forcefit them if drawn close together), especially if each map is hand drawn. Now, I would still recommend making a full size map of the continent, and taking the smaller maps from the larger map. Still, any discrepancies can be attributed to the inaccuracies of the people making the maps "in game." However, I'd love to WotC do a full series of maps on Eberron. Set up a spheroid and datum of the entire planet, and then work smaller maps from projections of that. Still, that's be pretty insane.
Taigis 06-16-04, 11:40 AM	I agree that you can rationalize any discrepancies if you want to claim that these are map examples of real product in those countries. Of course the boundaries of each of the countries is a little blurry. That happens after a war. HOWEVER I dont get the impression that that was meant to be the case with these maps. I don't think that these maps were necessarily meant to fill that role. I think they are there to provide the DM and players with an accurate reference to the world. I think any attempt to claim that it was a stylistic choice would come across as not be accountable for accidental errors. I could be wrong, though. Who do you make maps for by the way? Taigis
Josh Wilhoyte 06-17-04, 11:01 AM	Oh, I'm not saying that they planned to made inaccurate maps. However, in a world like this, inaccurate maps are pretty much guranteed, especially since they are most likely handdrawn. I work for a company that maps out electrical utility lines, and I see in accurate maps all of the time. The only way to effectively map out an area is to divide it in to sections so that the curvature of the earth has a minimal effect on each section (and it's surprising how quickly curvature of the earth matters for large scale maps). Yet even at the largest of scales, adjacent maps have issue matching up, and that's even using maps that are based on aerial photos and are not drawn on at all. Maps are inherently flawed things. There's a reason why mapmaking was considered more an art than a science. Even with the advent of computers, I can match two maps up such that mathematically they should match, border to border, and yet they don't. The military spends untold millions of dollars to have accurate maps, they invented their own projection system for it. And it's incredibly accurate and detailed, but spending less of mapping tends to rather easily lead to inaccurate maps. Now, I don't expect that WotC is going to put the manhours and money into actually making a real,accurate map of Eberron, nor do I really even want them to. It'd be much easier to "cheat" and fudge so the maps visually line up (even if projecting the maps to a globe afterward would show how silly it ends up being). Still, I'll easily and happily consider the maps "in game" representations of how things are. For the most part, consider the areas closer to the center of a map to be more accurate, and the edges to be less accurate. The smaller the scale of a map (which means the larger an area it shows), the less accurate the map is. And remember that these maps are hand drawn, much like maps in Eberron would be, so the small inaccuracies make sense. As long as there are no gross in accuracies, they're probably fine. I haven't had a chance to do a detailed examination myself yet.