Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DBlizzard 09-06-07, 06:16 AM	The latest September and Beyond (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4pr/20070905a) article has a lot of peeks at the upcoming Dragons of Eberron. Clearly there are quite a number of non-dragons in Argonessan given the numbers for the Heartlands. We even gets bits on the gem dragons in Eberron in the preview.
Darakhoranon 09-06-07, 06:35 AM	Yes, and I can already hear the cries of anguish over "Inspired Gem Dragons"...:D This book is right on top of my "to get" list...
Nlogue 09-06-07, 06:38 AM	Sweeeeet! I love how the map turned out for the abandoned orrery! Happy Dance Time!
Amaril 09-06-07, 07:27 AM	Yes, and I can already hear the cries of anguish over "Inspired Gem Dragons"...:D This book is right on top of my "to get" list... Keith had indicated that I might not like the sidebar on gem dragons. I didn't think he'd be that right. I really dislike this approach. Not only does it completely change the nature of gem dragons, but it also applies the disputed concept of 'if it's psionic, it's quori' despite the variety of other psionic sources. I'm sticking to my idea that gem dragons occur naturally on Eberron, Sardior is a psionic dragon deity revered by the gem dragons, and Sardior is represented symbolically by a massive Siberys shard that floats along the ring of Siberys appearing as a very small moon visible to the naked eye at night.
DBlizzard 09-06-07, 07:42 AM	Keith had indicated that I might not like the sidebar on gem dragons. I didn't think he'd be that right. I really dislike this approach. Not only does it completely change the nature of gem dragons, but it also applies the disputed concept of 'if it's psionic, it's quori' despite the variety of other psionic sources. However, it was pretty specific with the "gem dragons don't appear in Eberron, but if you want to use them here is an idea..." approach.
Amaril 09-06-07, 07:49 AM	However, it was pretty specific with the "gem dragons don't appear in Eberron, but if you want to use them here is an idea..." approach. And? I'm just saying that I thought their suggestion was weakly conceived, and I like my idea better. ;)
Shady314 09-06-07, 08:00 AM	A dragon that has willingly given itself as host to a Quori (through some sort of magic most likely) and has become a gem dragon would be a pretty awesome encounter in Sarlona. Perhaps a host to the DD itself.
DBlizzard 09-06-07, 08:27 AM	And? I'm just saying that I thought their suggestion was weakly conceived, and I like my idea better. ;) And the biggest complaint about PGtE was that it presented such options and didn't emphasize that they were optional treatments. Here they took pains to do so.
Amaril 09-06-07, 08:57 AM	And the biggest complaint about PGtE was that it presented such options and didn't emphasize that they were optional treatments. Here they took pains to do so. PGtE gave that treatment to PC races, classes, and PrCs. Monsters from other monster books (MMII, MMIII, Fiend Folio, etc.) had distinct inclusion directly in the ECS. My concern isn't with the existence of the sidebar itself, but how they changed the nature of the gem dragon to something drastically different than its original design. Anyway, I'm not here to argue over the sidebar itself. I'm only expressing an opinion in regards to how gem dragons were suggested for inclusion in Eberron.
Rauric 09-06-07, 09:18 AM	I like the idea of mutated dragons created by the quori. It makes that region even more threatening. The inspired need some watch dogs to keep out the Chamber and all of those other meddlers.:D I am not sure I like the quori inside the dragon though. I might not use that part, but dragons mutated and under the control of Inspired overlords is ok by me.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 09-06-07, 11:19 AM	When I read that Gem Dragons bit, I couldn't help but roll my eyes. I've got no particular problem with the passage...it's made pretty clear that it's just one possibility, I just wish the designers would remember that quori aren't the only source of psionic power. Besides, dragons are much more powerful than quori, and especially Inspired. It seems odd that they would bend the knee and allow the breeding. After all, dragons have unequalled pride, so being possessed by another (even a divine being) would be unattractive to them. Still, the rest of the preview looks pretty promising!
Bocamb 09-06-07, 02:56 PM	I'm sticking to my idea that gem dragons occur naturally on Eberron, Sardior is a psionic dragon deity revered by the gem dragons, and Sardior is represented symbolically by a massive Siberys shard that floats along the ring of Siberys appearing as a very small moon visible to the naked eye at night. I've thought of gem dragons in a similar way: that they dwell in the Ring of Siberys, worshipping Sardior in a giant castle carved from a Siberys dragon shard, studying the Draconic prophecy. One idea I had was that the gem dragons consider themselves the "true" heirs of Siberys (since Siberys dragonshards attune to psionic energy and since they live in what used to be his body), a claim that the Dragons of Argonnessen see as arrogant. Thus, they stay aloof from the other dragons of Eberron, though they sometime cross paths with members of the Chamber. It would also be cool to develop a psionic PrC based on Dragon Prophet (Dragon Seer?) who serves gem dragons instead of standard dragons. I've also thought about simply assigning the existing gem dragons to three groups that trace their lineage to the three progenitor dragons. The heirs of Siberys live in the Ring of Siberys; the heirs of Khyber inhabit small picket dimensions throughout Khyber; and the heirs of Eberron - well, they have a connection with Eberron. Another possibility would be to actually change their skins to reflect the three types of dragon shards (instead of assigning them to three families).
Hellcow 09-06-07, 03:33 PM	Keith had indicated that I might not like the sidebar on gem dragons. I didn't think he'd be that right. You should learn to trust me. I'm sticking to my idea that gem dragons occur naturally on Eberron... Personally, if I use them, they'll be extraplanar - shifting the existing inner plane connection of the gem dragon to a connection to the spiritual planes of Eberron. They aren't quori. They aren't aberrations. But they are dragons whose essence, instead of being bound to primal magic, is bound to the expression of thought and emotion. So instead of tying them the the planes of earth, I'll have my gem dragons living in crystal kingdoms in Dal Quor, Xoriat, or even Syrania or Shavarath - where they could potentially be allies (or enemies) for adventures who somehow end up roaming those planes. Like I said, to me (I'm not trying to change anyone else's opinion) the arcane/divine aspect of the dragon is a crucial defining feature. I'm fine with dragons of Eberron developing psionic abilities - but I don't want them to replace the innate magic. Even the couatl does all three, and the couatl has a different origin than the dragon (a purer connection to Siberys). So I'm all for gem dragons - but given the pre-existing extraplanar aspect of the gem dragon, I'll make my gem dragons extraplanar creatures. The really interesting question would be if a gem dragon of Dal Quor had the ability to materially travel between the planes despite Dal Quor's remote aspect - which would give them a unique role in any campaign that does deal with Dal Quor. but as DBlizzard says, to me the most important thing is that it IS mentioned as an option and not an absolute. As I said before, Amaril, if you want your crystal palace in the ring, go for it.
Hellcow 09-06-07, 03:51 PM	While I didn't write the sidebar... Besides, dragons are much more powerful than quori, and especially Inspired. Not in Sarlona! Note that the sidebar specifically states "rogue dragons" - dragons that have intentionally separated themselves from their cousins in Argonnessen, and who aren't aligned like the Storm Guardians. There aren't many of them to begin with, and they aren't allies themselves. Meanwhile, in Sarlona, you have kalaraq Inspired with levels in the 18-20 range. They may not want to challenge an entire aerie of great wyrms, but snatching a single rogue or dominating a few wyrmlings? Not a problem. Not to mention the soul binding power of the kalaraq, which is a severe threat to any creature that dreams. If the Inspired pushed this concept too far, it could draw the wrath of Argonnessen. But the rogues were rogues because they turned their back on Argonnessen to begin with. Certainly, as far as an origin of the gem dragon, this is one possible explanation and I understand it's one that won't appeal to some GD fans. But you can play with the idea without using the gem dragon or the breeding program. As I said, dragons aren't immune to the soul binding power of the kalaraq. So if you want a crazy epic campaign? The gathered kalaraq have found a way to possess the bodies of creatures whose souls they bind, and they have claimed the bodies of the Storm Guardians of Adar. Now the forces that once protected Adar are possessed by the most powerful spirits of the quori; the Devourer of Dreams isn't just a pretty human, he's in the body of a great wyrm. Can you defeat the possessed dragons? Can you find a way to stop the quori from doing it again? What will happen to Adar with the Storm Guardians destroyed, and how much damage is done in the battle? Turning to Argonnessen may be the answer, since the threat of draconic possession should certainly concern the elders - but can you reach those who will listen?
Amaril 09-06-07, 03:52 PM	You should learn to trust me.Hey, I bought Crime and Punishment in both PDF and print format; that should count for something! As far as my placement of gem dragons, I'm using them as per MMII; sometimes they reside on the planes including Risia, Syrania and Lammania, and sometimes they hang out on the material plane. It's an interesting idea to keep them seperated from chromatic and metallic dragons, but I'm not 100% sure I agree with it, especially when taking into account the dragons' study of the Draconic Prophecy and Sardior's portfolio and domains (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030124a) (not canon in Eberron, I know).
Hellcow 09-06-07, 04:08 PM	It's an interesting idea to keep them seperated from chromatic and metallic dragons, but I'm not 100% sure I agree with it... I don't expect you to. Just explaining my perspective. I understand where you're coming from, and like I said, the castle in the ring is a fine idea. It's just that for me, the idea that magic runs in the blood of dragons is something I just can't set aside; it is the defining element of dragons, reflecting their primal connection to the world. Hence, when I encounter a dragon that doesn't have that innate power, it is separated from the chromatics and metallics; its blood and primal nature are fundamentally different, and I want it to have a different origin to account for that. By DoE, the dragons say that the progenitors created the outer planes before the material; as such, I'd say that the gem dragons consider themselves to be the first dragons, while the chromatics and metallics argue that they have the strongest bond to Eberron and Siberys. Per their place on the planes, I consider Dal Quor, Xoriat, or Shavarath to be far better homes for them than Risia or Lamannia (I'm down with Syrania). Lamannia is where you find the elements of earth, but to me, the spiritual and emotional power of the gem dragon is far more important than actually hanging out with elemental gems. As I said, the gem dragon in Dal Quor or Xoriat can live in an entire realm of crystal - because these are realms shaped BY thought and imagination. As dragons of the spiritual realms, they become interesting to me in a way that they never would be as creatures of Eberron. The gem dragon of Xoriat is a symbol of passion, one of the best symbols of the Fury you could find, capable of granting inspiration or madness. The gem dragon of Syrania is a symbol of serenity, its crystal realm floating in the silence. Yet they are not outsiders, and they can have motivations and interests that the pure spirits of the realm would not. And as for the Prophecy and Sardior, it's certainly a valid path to take, but as you say, it's not canon; by DoE the Prophecy falls under the watchful eye of Chronepsis, arbiter of fate, as well as the progenitors themselves.
Darakhoranon 09-06-07, 04:31 PM	how they changed the nature of the gem dragon to something drastically different than its original design. Isnīt that one of the points of Eberron? "Good" orcs (the Gatekeepers), "machiavellian bastard" gnomes (Zilargo/the Trust), psychotic (non-drow) elves (the Valenar)... Granted, I like this "possessed (gem) dragon" approach about as much as you do, but I donīt see it as complete madness. Iīd probably use them like you do, Amaril. And like Keith. Some gem dragons hanging out in Argonessen and some living on other planes.
Amaril 09-06-07, 04:40 PM	Isnīt that one of the points of Eberron? "Good" orcs (the Gatekeepers), "machiavellian bastard" gnomes (Zilargo/the Trust), psychotic (non-drow) elves (the Valenar)...You're taking that out of context. Gem dragons as presented in that sidebar doesn't just change their behavior, it changes them as a creature altogether for all gem dragons. As suggested by the sidebar, gem dragons were once rogue metallic or chromatic dragons that have been changed to serve as vessels for Quori whereas the examples you gave doesn't necessarily apply to all individuals of those races.
Hellcow 09-06-07, 08:17 PM	...I just wish the designers would remember that quori aren't the only source of psionic power. And while I don't think it's necessarily been forgotten, I'll just take the opportunity to remind everyone out there that just as there's more to psionics than quori and Sarlona, there's also more to Dal Quor that the quori and more to Xoriat than the daelkyr. Il-Lashtavar may be the heart of Dal Quor - the spirit that shapes the plane - but there's a billion worlds on the fringes. I mention this simply because of an earlier discussion relating to a wilder drawing psionic energy from Xoriat. Such an individual doesn't have to be a cultist, aberration, or monster. Xoriat is the plane of madness, because taken in its entirety it generally will drive people mad, and because the creatures it spawns are often terrifying... in part because they simply don't fit in what we consider to be reality. But there is inspiration in madness, and positive things can come from it. So all things psionic shouldn't be tied to the quori... but all things Dal Quor aren't necessarily tied to the quori, either.
Amaril 09-06-07, 09:07 PM	This is why we need Planes of Eberron!
Rechan 09-06-07, 09:22 PM	So, Keith. Is there a lot on the Prophecy in DoE? DoE is shaping up to be real sexy.
Hellcow 09-06-07, 10:08 PM	This is why we need Planes of Eberron! No argument here! Is there a lot on the Prophecy in DoE? Nah, didn't really seem relevant. Yes, there's a chunk on the Prophecy. ;)
Nived 09-06-07, 10:28 PM	Hey at least the sidebar contains the words "It is widely suspected," so you can easily ignore it if you so choose.
Gurv 09-06-07, 11:34 PM	Yes, there's a chunk on the Prophecy. ;) Gee whiz, I hope they printed it in it's entirety. In the original Draconic, of course.
Hellcow 09-07-07, 12:04 AM	Gee whiz, I hope they printed it in it's entirety. In the original Draconic, of course. It's impossible to print it in its entirety. DoE just tells you why.
DragoonDarkfire 09-07-07, 12:10 AM	The prophecy is essentially Eberron's version of "fate" or "destiny". You want to read the prophecy in it's entirety? Look at the entire fate of existence, all that will and has happened and try to decipher it in an ancient language that is nearly impossible to read. That is the prophecy for ya.
Paulon 09-07-07, 12:14 AM	Then add in all the if/then branches and alternatives that never happened because their prerequisites didn't happen for some reason... ought to multiply the size by a couple of orders of magnitude.
Hellcow 09-07-07, 01:13 AM	Certainly on the right track. ;)
DBlizzard 09-07-07, 02:42 AM	Then add in all the if/then branches and alternatives that never happened because their prerequisites didn't happen for some reason... ought to multiply the size by a couple of orders of magnitude. And, by at least one account, make sure you regularly update it. It keeps changing with new stuff added over time. "We were just here last month and these glowing marks weren't on the wall. What do they say?"
Rechan 09-07-07, 04:27 AM	"We were just here last month and these glowing marks weren't on the wall. What do they say?" "It says 'Invest in Eye Bee Em'. Wonder what that means?"
eehamburg 09-07-07, 09:04 AM	"It says 'Invest in Eye Bee Em'. Wonder what that means?" And what does "Yahoo" mean? Also, does anyone here know who "William" of the "Gates" is? I think this might be important to the prophecy, but I need some help. Anyone?
Ryuu_Tenshi 09-07-07, 09:21 AM	Re: The Xoriat issue, I like to take the idea of madness as the idea of Delirium re the Sandman universe... she's an utter nutter and most people either don't understand her or find her outright terrifying, but she sees paths in the Gardens of Destiny that even Destiny himself cannot comprehend. Or, as another route, to reference the Chronicles of Amber... you need Law to give the world structure, but without at least a little Chaos the world freezes and becomes rigid. Without a little madness, there is no movement (And though this be madness, there is method in it...) ... I'd really love to see more done with Xoriat than just the LULZ ABBERATIONZZZZZ business it usually gets, and more done with Dal Quor than just MUHAHAHA QUORI! bit. Sort of like how Secrets of Sarlona gave us more than just the war with the Inspire (though there was lots of that), but a whole set of new cultures and races (so, so much wonderful references to Asian culture, particularly modern China. The Asian Studies major in me was flipping out while reading that) ... that said, WOOOOO DRAGONS. WOO, ARGONESSEN. I may still go with my idea of the Dragontouched (my own brand of dragon-blooded folk) to populate it but I love seeing new ideas. Also, dragons? did I mention dragons? Woot! ... Damn 4e, now we'll never get a 3.5 Planes of Eberron.
RavinRay 09-08-07, 09:51 PM	So I'm all for gem dragons - but given the pre-existing extraplanar aspect of the gem dragon, I'll make my gem dragons extraplanar creatures. Looking at the development of gem dragons from Bruce Cordell's web enhancement for the original Psionics Handbook where he made no allusion whatsoever to any Inner Plane connection; and then Steve Winter's rewrite in the Monster Manual II wherein he does (but without giving them the extraplanar subtype), I'm not so sure gem dragons were meant to be extraplanar to begin with. I'm curious as to why the MM II editors allowed this, because it seems to drive the dichotomy between the spellcasting chromatic and metallic dragon on one side and the psionically powerful gem dragons on the other side even further, and can lead to interpretations that when it comes to the exemplars of magic and psionics, the dragons, well, they're on different levels of treatment, and not entirely equally analogous to one another, which for me puts gem dragon at a distinct disadvantage game-wise.
Amaril 09-08-07, 11:37 PM	Note that the gem dragons are note native to those planes; they only travel to and sometimes reside on them as well as the Astral Plane. That implies that they are from the Material Plane.
Hellcow 09-09-07, 12:04 AM	Note that the gem dragons are not native to those planes... Though just to take the side of the Traveler, note also that Eberron says that things drawn into Eberron (even then only promising the core books) may have to be altered to fit the tone of the setting. Again, I think the important thing is that you've found a role for them that works for you - and that is the goal of Eberron, to ensure that you can find a place for the things you want to use. I've also found a place for them in my campaign, which happens to be quite different. We both get what we want. As writers of DoE we simply chose not to give them an official, absolute role; even the one that's suggested in DoE is very clearly called out as a possibility and nothing more. Given that we now have three entirely different ideas on the table in this thread alone, I think that was the right decision. I still don't like them side by side with the chromatics and metallics, however they've been used in the past. But I also don't like, say, chaos gnomes, and some people love 'em. So to me the key is that you've got an idea you're happy with - and that we haven't said anything that would allow a player to say "That's not what gem dragons are supposed to be." I respect that Bruce Cordell didn't originally intend them to have an extraplanar connection - but that doesn't change my feelings that it's where they belong in Eberron. As I said, I've actually gone from actively disliking them to thinking they're cool - as extraplanar beings. And if I HAD put my version in, you'd hate that as much as the one that's in there now. So in my eyes, they work best as they are - an optional element, left to the DM to use as he sees fit. It's possible that the sidebar could have been expanded to present more options, but I think the most critical thing is that it's presented AS option, rather than fact.
Hellcow 09-09-07, 12:18 AM	With all that said... I'll acknowledge that it was a mistake for me to say that the "pre-existing planar connection" of the dragons was the basis of my approach. In part it was; in the MM II, the dragons are called out as having the ability to planar travel and as living on the planes (though it didn't escape my notice that they weren't native to those planes). I'll admit, I haven't read the original web enhancement, let alone compared the two side by side. But the point isn't that I like them as extraplanar because of that. I like them as extraplanar because I see the spiritual planes as the purest source of psionic power - and that if one accepts gem dragons as not simply being psions, but as embodying psionic power - which is how I view C/M dragons and magic - I want them to be at its source. That's MY version of psionics, not something that's official now or likely ever will be. Hence why I wouldn't force it in DoE. But it's why I love the idea of a dragon of Dal Quor... not a quori, not even an outsider, but a dragon born in the plane of dreams, whose blood holds the power of pure imagination. It's not what Bruce Cordell had in mind, certainly. I acknowledge that - another reason I wouldn't make it official in a book. But it's what inspires me. I'd rather make them distinctly different from the C/Ms, and give them the myth that they are the first dragons, born before the material plane - because I see a host of stories I can spin off of that foundation. But again, if you see a host of stories you can spin off of your idea, that's what matters - that we both have our inspiration. Of course, I AM actually basing this off the planar connect Steve Winter added, given that the idea that they can travel between prime and plane IS something I'd use - I'd just have their origins be planar instead of primal.
ZeroSD 09-09-07, 02:56 AM	Or, as another route, to reference the Chronicles of Amber... you need Law to give the world structure, but without at least a little Chaos the world freezes and becomes rigid. One idea I had on planescape (which is off-forum but reflects my views on law/chaos): Mechanus may make the Multiverse turn, but Limbo is where it comes from. Chaoticness is the good stuff, even if lawfulness gets all the cred. I'm not sure how that'd apply to Eberron, except in that chaotic has a lot of overlooked potential that other D&D settings tend to overlook.
Ryuu_Tenshi 09-12-07, 12:35 AM	One idea I had on planescape (which is off-forum but reflects my views on law/chaos): Mechanus may make the Multiverse turn, but Limbo is where it comes from. Chaoticness is the good stuff, even if lawfulness gets all the cred. I'm not sure how that'd apply to Eberron, except in that chaotic has a lot of overlooked potential that other D&D settings tend to overlook. Absolutely agreed. I hate how most of DnD seems to veiw chaos as an inherently destructive force - it may be that it does tend to tear apart what we know, but new things may be born from that. Sometimes in order to create, you have to destroy. Not to say that everything should be chaotic: just like absolute law, absolute chaos is unstable and undesirable. ... I'll stop offtopiking now.
Hellcow 09-12-07, 01:09 AM	I hate how most of DnD seems to veiw chaos as an inherently destructive force - it may be that it does tend to tear apart what we know, but new things may be born from that. Sometimes in order to create, you have to destroy. This is essentially the view taken by those who actively revere the Traveler. The gifts of the Traveler are dangerous, but they bring progress and change.