Low-level ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Low-level ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Talaos
04-16-05, 08:20 PM I've read in many places that Eberron is a low-level campaign...I've looked at the campaign setting and the only hypothesis I could come up with is because Korvaire is much more inter-connected cities wise, and assassinations are frequent, forcing the PCs to rely more on their wits?
fanpythonmonty
04-16-05, 08:28 PM I was under the impression that during the war all the higher level adventuring type PCs would have been killed off and the world is sort of starting over as far as hero/adventurer types go.
stone_dog
04-16-05, 08:57 PM Eberron is not, unlike some settings, basically hostile towards low level gaming. There are not scads of adventurers swarming about major cities and those few that ARE doing things like that are happy enough taking care of the same low level types of things over and over again because the money is easy and the danger is managable.

PCs are the ones with drive and motivation to do more and rise above the rest. They are the ones that actually will end up in the position of power and skill to threaten the goals of wickedness and save cities and nations. They keep seeking out greater and greater challanges because something in their personality demands it of them (read that as "The players would get bored otherwise").

In my mind Eberron has never been a "Low level campaign world." It just doesn't force the idea that you HAVE to be high level to make a difference in it.
Psionycx
04-16-05, 09:27 PM I think that a key objective in Eberron design was to not create a campaign setting like Forgotten Realms where Epic-level NPC's are so common that you almost can't find a corner of the setting where they're not as common as rats.

As stated, Eberron just came out of a great war that would have caused considerable attrition in the ranks of high-level characters. This creates more of an open playing field where PC's have an opportunity to distinguish themselves rather than being utterly eclipsed by the game designer's alter-egos.

An entry-level PC in Eberron can still have an impact on things, while at the same time there are opportunites for higher-level threats for PC's to face later on (the Inspired, threats from the Demon Wastes, etc.).

This setting is more about the PC's than about the NPC's, which is a refreshing change.
polt
04-17-05, 05:31 AM Your players can become just as high level as in any other campaign. The trick is that when they hit lvl 10 or something, they will be some of the most powerful humanoids in the world.

Take veterans from the Last War for example, almost all of them are lvl 2 warriors. And the Valenar, who is a nation of warriors, are among the best fighters in all of the world, are lvl 5-6 rangers and fighters.
Psionycx
04-17-05, 11:31 PM Well again, that's to provide some parity.

Don't forget that NPC's are not necessarily static either. They too can gain levels as the campaign timeline advances. However, in many settings (FR again being the worst offender), PC's often have a level gap (more like a yawning chasm) of 10-20+ levels between them and many NPC's in the setting.

Here the gap is narrower and PC's have a hope of catching up, and even surpassing, many of the NPC population.
a_psh
04-17-05, 11:47 PM Think of the NPC levels as saying one of two things:

- "This is how much raw power this character needs to be who he/she is, get the job done, &c. Inflating this character much higher would serve no purpose." E.g. a House leader is usually around level 8-12, depending on how much non-business power they have (e.g. Merrix is also a very skilled artificer in addition to being politically savy, presumably). As long as most advanced semi-static world NPCs are of this level and it's higher than the average population, it makes sense. (You only need a +180 Diplomacy check if your rivals are also insanely "epic", after all. As long as most guild leaders are at about the same power level, mainly in terms of skills, they can interact with each other pretty easily.) This applies most strongly to, say, the sort of character who has expert levels and 10s in every physical stat. They're there to be interesting and this is the level that gives them the right amount of interesting skills and powers, not to be a tailored battle for PCs.

- "This is a baseline for how powerful this NPC should be. Adjust a bit if needed." E.g. one of the setting's big villains is level 12. This means that you could rightly expect him to slaughter a level 5 group should they somehow find a way to press their luck. When the PCs get to around level 10, however, you could contemplate a direct confrontation. Maybe he finally reveals himself and there's a face-off. Or, if they start on an epic quest to slay him but are level 15 by the time they've found his hideout and defeated his guardians, you should probably make him a level 17-ish encounter instead.
Sarlax
04-18-05, 02:46 AM As stated, Eberron just came out of a great war that would have caused considerable attrition in the ranks of high-level characters.
This isn't supported in the setting or by logic.

High-level characters are produced by conflict and challenge. If anything, the Last War would produce higher level characters faster than it consumed them.

Second, high level characters are incredibly tough. How do they suddenly get killed off in large numbers? A group of high-level characters can easily evade forces, even armies. So who killed them? Other high-level characters? If that's the case, the victors would be even more powerful.

Third, where did all those high-level characters come from before the war? The assumption of this "Last War Killed All the Powerful Guys" theory requires that there used to be a lot more. So how is it that they originally came into existence? And how is it that the vast majority of them couldn't survive a war?

No, the real reason that Eberron doesn't have a lot of high-level characters is that a proliferation of high-level types doesn't make sense. Unlike in Forgotten Realms, you don't have inexplicable situations like 40th-level clerics of Bane running taverns or archmages creating portals from pantries to beer barrels. Half-dragon rogue/paladin/monk/sorcerers aren't shoemakers.

Despite its strengths, FR suffers from an absurd idea that ultra-powerful types can exist in abundance, and that they can do that without completely altering the world.

Eberron is both more realistic and more accessible to low-level characters. That's why high-level types aren't a dime a dozen.
polt
04-18-05, 03:20 AM NPC's don't get level ups in eberron, unless it is important for the story line. LIke the main villian in a campaign, he'll probably advance along with the PCs.

But Joe Bob the last war soldier will never get beyond lvl 1 warrior.
JohnnyONeal
04-18-05, 09:54 AM The trick is that when they hit lvl 10 or something, they will be some of the most powerful humanoids in the world.
This is definitely true, though it doesn't address the entire picture. The true aspect is that while there are a large number of dragons, quori, daelkyr, hags, fiends, and traditional monsters in the world who pose CR 10-25 threats, few humanoids achieve these levels. To be more specific, though, PCs at this level will be some of the most powerful non-villain humanoids in the world. There are a handful of good-aligned characters in the mid-to-high levels, a smattering of fairly high-level neutral characters who have no interest in fighting the forces of evil, and a hearty helping of high-level humanoids who are the forces of evil. This is definitely an unbalanced picture, but that's part of what makes the world "noir," and it's what makes heroes so necessary.

In other words, Eberron supports adventures from 1st level to epic levels. It just does that while acknowledging that all adventurers are special people, even at 1st level.
polt
04-18-05, 10:03 AM Also, a nice "trick" in Eberron is, that all of the almighty powerfull bad-ass creatures there exist, all have some reason for not just attacking and destroying everything they see.

So WHEN one of the CR 25 becomes a thread, it's the biggest thread in ten-thousaned years :) And it's up to the PCs to save the world.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Talaos 04-16-05, 08:20 PM	I've read in many places that Eberron is a low-level campaign...I've looked at the campaign setting and the only hypothesis I could come up with is because Korvaire is much more inter-connected cities wise, and assassinations are frequent, forcing the PCs to rely more on their wits?
fanpythonmonty 04-16-05, 08:28 PM	I was under the impression that during the war all the higher level adventuring type PCs would have been killed off and the world is sort of starting over as far as hero/adventurer types go.
stone_dog 04-16-05, 08:57 PM	Eberron is not, unlike some settings, basically hostile towards low level gaming. There are not scads of adventurers swarming about major cities and those few that ARE doing things like that are happy enough taking care of the same low level types of things over and over again because the money is easy and the danger is managable. PCs are the ones with drive and motivation to do more and rise above the rest. They are the ones that actually will end up in the position of power and skill to threaten the goals of wickedness and save cities and nations. They keep seeking out greater and greater challanges because something in their personality demands it of them (read that as "The players would get bored otherwise"). In my mind Eberron has never been a "Low level campaign world." It just doesn't force the idea that you HAVE to be high level to make a difference in it.
Psionycx 04-16-05, 09:27 PM	I think that a key objective in Eberron design was to not create a campaign setting like Forgotten Realms where Epic-level NPC's are so common that you almost can't find a corner of the setting where they're not as common as rats. As stated, Eberron just came out of a great war that would have caused considerable attrition in the ranks of high-level characters. This creates more of an open playing field where PC's have an opportunity to distinguish themselves rather than being utterly eclipsed by the game designer's alter-egos. An entry-level PC in Eberron can still have an impact on things, while at the same time there are opportunites for higher-level threats for PC's to face later on (the Inspired, threats from the Demon Wastes, etc.). This setting is more about the PC's than about the NPC's, which is a refreshing change.
polt 04-17-05, 05:31 AM	Your players can become just as high level as in any other campaign. The trick is that when they hit lvl 10 or something, they will be some of the most powerful humanoids in the world. Take veterans from the Last War for example, almost all of them are lvl 2 warriors. And the Valenar, who is a nation of warriors, are among the best fighters in all of the world, are lvl 5-6 rangers and fighters.
Psionycx 04-17-05, 11:31 PM	Well again, that's to provide some parity. Don't forget that NPC's are not necessarily static either. They too can gain levels as the campaign timeline advances. However, in many settings (FR again being the worst offender), PC's often have a level gap (more like a yawning chasm) of 10-20+ levels between them and many NPC's in the setting. Here the gap is narrower and PC's have a hope of catching up, and even surpassing, many of the NPC population.
a_psh 04-17-05, 11:47 PM	Think of the NPC levels as saying one of two things: - "This is how much raw power this character needs to be who he/she is, get the job done, &c. Inflating this character much higher would serve no purpose." E.g. a House leader is usually around level 8-12, depending on how much non-business power they have (e.g. Merrix is also a very skilled artificer in addition to being politically savy, presumably). As long as most advanced semi-static world NPCs are of this level and it's higher than the average population, it makes sense. (You only need a +180 Diplomacy check if your rivals are also insanely "epic", after all. As long as most guild leaders are at about the same power level, mainly in terms of skills, they can interact with each other pretty easily.) This applies most strongly to, say, the sort of character who has expert levels and 10s in every physical stat. They're there to be interesting and this is the level that gives them the right amount of interesting skills and powers, not to be a tailored battle for PCs. - "This is a baseline for how powerful this NPC should be. Adjust a bit if needed." E.g. one of the setting's big villains is level 12. This means that you could rightly expect him to slaughter a level 5 group should they somehow find a way to press their luck. When the PCs get to around level 10, however, you could contemplate a direct confrontation. Maybe he finally reveals himself and there's a face-off. Or, if they start on an epic quest to slay him but are level 15 by the time they've found his hideout and defeated his guardians, you should probably make him a level 17-ish encounter instead.
Sarlax 04-18-05, 02:46 AM	As stated, Eberron just came out of a great war that would have caused considerable attrition in the ranks of high-level characters. This isn't supported in the setting or by logic. High-level characters are produced by conflict and challenge. If anything, the Last War would produce higher level characters faster than it consumed them. Second, high level characters are incredibly tough. How do they suddenly get killed off in large numbers? A group of high-level characters can easily evade forces, even armies. So who killed them? Other high-level characters? If that's the case, the victors would be even more powerful. Third, where did all those high-level characters come from before the war? The assumption of this "Last War Killed All the Powerful Guys" theory requires that there used to be a lot more. So how is it that they originally came into existence? And how is it that the vast majority of them couldn't survive a war? No, the real reason that Eberron doesn't have a lot of high-level characters is that a proliferation of high-level types doesn't make sense. Unlike in Forgotten Realms, you don't have inexplicable situations like 40th-level clerics of Bane running taverns or archmages creating portals from pantries to beer barrels. Half-dragon rogue/paladin/monk/sorcerers aren't shoemakers. Despite its strengths, FR suffers from an absurd idea that ultra-powerful types can exist in abundance, and that they can do that without completely altering the world. Eberron is both more realistic and more accessible to low-level characters. That's why high-level types aren't a dime a dozen.
polt 04-18-05, 03:20 AM	NPC's don't get level ups in eberron, unless it is important for the story line. LIke the main villian in a campaign, he'll probably advance along with the PCs. But Joe Bob the last war soldier will never get beyond lvl 1 warrior.
JohnnyONeal 04-18-05, 09:54 AM	The trick is that when they hit lvl 10 or something, they will be some of the most powerful humanoids in the world. This is definitely true, though it doesn't address the entire picture. The true aspect is that while there are a large number of dragons, quori, daelkyr, hags, fiends, and traditional monsters in the world who pose CR 10-25 threats, few humanoids achieve these levels. To be more specific, though, PCs at this level will be some of the most powerful non-villain humanoids in the world. There are a handful of good-aligned characters in the mid-to-high levels, a smattering of fairly high-level neutral characters who have no interest in fighting the forces of evil, and a hearty helping of high-level humanoids who are the forces of evil. This is definitely an unbalanced picture, but that's part of what makes the world "noir," and it's what makes heroes so necessary. In other words, Eberron supports adventures from 1st level to epic levels. It just does that while acknowledging that all adventurers are special people, even at 1st level.
polt 04-18-05, 10:03 AM	Also, a nice "trick" in Eberron is, that all of the almighty powerfull bad-ass creatures there exist, all have some reason for not just attacking and destroying everything they see. So WHEN one of the CR 25 becomes a thread, it's the biggest thread in ten-thousaned years :) And it's up to the PCs to save the world.