Post/Author/DateTime	Post
davethebrave371 10-21-05, 03:31 PM	Ok, so, on page 267 of the ECS it seems to imply that someone with an appropriate Mark can just dominate an Elemental without checks...yet there is a Feat in MoE that grants a bonus to those checks, especially if you're of an appropriate House...what? So let me get this straight, you get a bigger bonus to doing something that you don't need to make a check on? And if you DO have to make checks, what is the benefit the Mark gives you, because I can't find it. It's an unadjusted Cha check for most people, correct? So what is the adjustment for having a Mark?
LaoKhanWei 10-21-05, 03:37 PM	In the case of controlling bound fire and air elementals in some kind of vehicle you'd specifically need the Mark of Storm to do so automatically. Anyone else needs to beat their opposed Charisma check every time you want them to do something. This feat I assume (I haven't actually read the entry myself) gives everyone that doesn't have the Mark of Storm a bonus on this opposed Charisma check. Members of House Lyrandar would get a somewhat larger bonus. The key here is that just because you're a member of house Lyrandar does not mean you have the Mark of Storm. Most members of any house do not have dragonmarks.
Tom McCarthy 10-21-05, 03:40 PM	My memory may be faulty, but I believe the feat allows dragonmarked members of the house (for example, Joe Schmoe d'Lyrandar) who have the wrong power from their dragonmark (for example, not wind's favor) to use the wheel of wind and water to reliably control the airship.
LaoKhanWei 10-21-05, 04:19 PM	I think they need some kind of feat that grants a +4 or so bonus to opposed Charisma checks for controlling elements. It stands to reason that someone who doesn't possess the mark but has acquired(stolen) an airship or elemental galleon would become reasonably adept at winning Charisma checks against it if he did so regularly for several years...
davethebrave371 10-22-05, 12:14 AM	In the case of controlling bound fire and air elementals in some kind of vehicle you'd specifically need the Mark of Storm to do so automatically. Anyone else needs to beat their opposed Charisma check every time you want them to do something. So...what's the Wheel for? It says (p. 263) that if you have the wind's favor ability, you can control the elemental. So...without the wheel, what kind of benefit does the Least Mark with wind's favor have on an airship? Because p. 267 seems to state that the wheel merely helps, and that help, according to the ability, is the domination of the elemental...which seems to contradict p. 267's statement that you can just control it anyway...which means you wouldn't need the Wheel. ...that's why I'm confused. I understand that it gives a +4 to most, and a +8 to those from Lyrandar (though I didn't think about the unmarked part before, again, I only skimmed, but I thought it said Marked), but what I don't understand is why the Feat is needed if it DOES apply to those who are marked with the higher bonus, and if so, what's the benefit of the Mark normally? If the benefit the Mark grants you is total dominance what is the Wheel for? If the benefit the Mark grants you is a bonus, what is the bonus?
icedrake 10-22-05, 12:54 AM	The feat in MoE is not for controlling elemental vessels you can already dominate if you have the correct DM feat and dragonshard item. It adds a +4 bonus to any contested roll made when attempting to control an elemental, adding a +10 bonus if you have the correct dragonshard item. Example: Bob d'Lyrandar's got his Wind's Favor ability and sings as he joyflies his airship around Sharn with his Wheel of Wind and Water. For some strange reason, he needs to take the Lighting Rail, and holy rickets, Batman! The Orien Heir dies and no one can stop the train! Bob jumps to the recuse and graps the reigns trying to command the elemental to halt. Normally, he gets a +Cha mod bonus to this roll, but he's got said MoE feat. Instead, he gets Cha mod + 10 because he's got the Lighting Reigns and his snazzy feat. Without the reigns, he'd get Cha mod + 4 from the feat. In addition, the feat gives him a retry should he fail the first roll a round later. Its pretty cool for people who are a part of a house but lack a 'mark. In fact, I'd be tempted to play a lyrandar member with Favored in the House and this feat instead of grabing the 'mark because of the insane bonus you get from this one. It makes for some interesting role-playing opporunities.
LaoKhanWei 10-22-05, 03:56 AM	You need both a wheel of wind and water and the mark to control it without making checks. Just having one will do nothing for you, unless of course you have this feat.
Galahad_Knight 10-22-05, 04:10 AM	Basically, it's the items not the dragonmarks that let the character dominate. The wheel of wind and water lets dragonmarked members of house Lyrandar, wiht the wind's favor ability, dominate the elemental inside the ship to which it's mounted. The item does the dominating. The item is *keyed* to be usable only to people possessing the prerequisite feat (just like any item with a feat requirement). House Orien elemental vessels are similarly keped to users with the appropriate Orien dragonmark. A dragonarked character can't just walk up to an elemental and say "Sit, boy." There's nothing inherent to the dragonmarks or their abilities that lets the dominate elementals. Rather, it;s the mark that lets them use the *item* to dominate the elemental. You can't dominate an elemental without a wheel (or similar object) and you can't use that object wihtout the mark. The feat just helps you better attempt to controll an elemental without the item. Non-dragonmarked people can make the same attempt, just not as well. Perhaps elementla binding and dragonmarks are linked. But not enough to let someone just walk up and make elementals jump through hoops
davethebrave371 10-22-05, 01:01 PM	Basically, it's the items not the dragonmarks that let the character dominate. The wheel of wind and water lets dragonmarked members of house Lyrandar, wiht the wind's favor ability, dominate the elemental inside the ship to which it's mounted. The item does the dominating. The item is *keyed* to be usable only to people possessing the prerequisite feat (just like any item with a feat requirement). House Orien elemental vessels are similarly keped to users with the appropriate Orien dragonmark. A dragonarked character can't just walk up to an elemental and say "Sit, boy." There's nothing inherent to the dragonmarks or their abilities that lets the dominate elementals. Rather, it;s the mark that lets them use the *item* to dominate the elemental. You can't dominate an elemental without a wheel (or similar object) and you can't use that object wihtout the mark. The feat just helps you better attempt to controll an elemental without the item. Non-dragonmarked people can make the same attempt, just not as well. Perhaps elementla binding and dragonmarks are linked. But not enough to let someone just walk up and make elementals jump through hoops So, essentially, a Least Mark'd (of Storm) character with wind's favor wouldn't be able to control an airship or galleon better than your average joe?
Jagermeister 10-22-05, 01:28 PM	So, essentially, a Least Mark'd (of Storm) character with wind's favor wouldn't be able to control an airship or galleon better than your average joe? Not unless he has a higher Charisma. But the probability that a Least Marked Character with Wind's Favor would be piloting an airship or elemental galleon vs. the probability that an average joe would be piloting either... you can do the math.
Galahad_Knight 10-23-05, 02:21 AM	Basically, yeah. I'd have to double check the rules in the Explorer's Handbook, but as far as I know, simply haivng the dragonmark needed to use a wheel of wind and water grants no bonus to controlling an elemental without said item. Unless someone can dig up a rule that says otherwise
PsionicMonk 10-25-05, 01:11 AM	As far as I remember, if Joe d'Lyrandar, has the lesser dragonmark with the wind's favor abilty, with a Wheel of wind and water. Joe can tell the elemental to do whatever he wants. I bleave the feat is for someone WITHOUT the correct dragonmark abilty or without a dragonmark period, that they will get + to the Cha checks to contorl an elemental. So senerio 1, Joe d'Lyrandar is contorling the ship when all of the sudden he has a heart attack and dies. A crew member by the name of, Bob Lyrandar a non dragonmarked member of the crew, with this feat will be able to contorl the elemental with greater ease. I bleave it will also work with this feat that even a dragonmarked member that does not have the Wind's favor abilty, would get bonuses on the Cha check. I'm not sure, if Bob Lyrandar will get bonus's on his checks, trying to contorl a lighting elemental. Considering they aren't from the same houses. If that is what the feat reads
Tanvalis 10-25-05, 02:59 AM	Okay... not having the book yet (can't find the damn thing in any of the places I usually go to buy my books), but reading what's going on here I think the feat was created for those who don't have the Dragonmark of the proper type AND/OR proper ability to control an elemental with the item that allows for that control SO this means... Joe d'Lyrandar with the Lesser Mark of the Storm with the ability of Winds Favor doesn't need the feat to use the Wheel of Wind and Water to control an elemental vessel. Though he could use the feat if he wanted a +4 bonus on his charisma check to try and use the Lightning Reins of the lightning rail. Bob d'Lyrandar with the Lesser Mark of the Storm with the ability of Sleet Storm doesn't need this feat to use the Wheel of Wind and Water to make an opposed charisma check to control an elemental vessel though if he did have it he'd get a +10 bonus to his check because he is of the correct house. If he were to try to use the Lightning Reins to control an elemental vessel he'd need to make an opposed charisma check and if he had this feat he'd get a +4 bonus to that check. That's How I understand how it would work based on what has been said by those who have the book... now when I GET the book I'll look at it. Hope I'm right though... that's a pretty cool feat to have... gives members of Lyrandar a bit more choices when determining thier Lesser mark ability even if they hope to Pilot an airship someday. Jane Lyrandar with no Lesser Mark of the Storm doesn't need this feat to use the Wheel of Wind and Water to make an opposed charisma check to control an elemental vessel though if she did have it she'd get a +10 bonus to her check because she is of the correct house. If she were to try to use the Lightning Reins to control an elemental vessel she'd need to make an opposed charisma check and if she had this feat she'd get a +4 bonus to that check.