Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SilentOne 03-23-05, 05:03 PM	Example of what I'm thinking. (http://tedinmark.home.mindspring.com/56PredatorFlagship.html) First off, would this even be possible to create? What I'm thinking is simlpy a modification of the existing airships (for one, putting a roof over the main deck to protect from an attack form above) as well as adding attacks to it. The best spell/power equivalents to what I'm thinking would most likely be energy ball and energy bolt, but I don't think the kalashtar would be making warships for Lyrandar, or that Lyrandar would would with the Inspired to make these. So we need some arcane/divine spell to mimic these powers (looking for ball and line spells, that can also do some good damage to buildings). Another possibility I've considered is a couple of eternal wands that have been specially crafted so anyone can use them, but they're built into the warship, along the sides and bottom (check the picture). Second, would Lyrandar make these at all? It sounds to me that this would be the first thing that the d'Lyrandars would be thinking of when the Law War began, as it would give them something to sell in the war, quite possibly outselling Cannith's warforged in popularity (I mean, come on, little humanoid half-construct, or massive floating ship of death? which would you pick in a war.) However, ECS gives no mention of even the possibilities of such a device. Third, I have no idea how to stat vehicles, and this is definately not just a Colossal construct. Needs a driver, as well as people to work the balistas (not everything can be death rays, especially with the eternal wand idea [2/day isn't too scary. Ya, it'll hurt, but it won't utterly destory]). Any help with this would be appreciated, especially after the ideas for the ship have been finalized. On a somewhat completely unrelated note (related if you consider they're both warlike) is, who would train warmages, in your opinions? I'd personally go with the Valenar elves or the Talenta halflings, but that's just me. Any ideas (Complete Arcane has the Warmage)
a_psh 03-23-05, 09:03 PM	Well, the common skyship does have weaponry. Ballistas, specifically, I believe (rapid-fire variants, actually, if you look at Whispers). I've got a few refitted ones running around in my game... in particular, I played around with the Jade's Fury a lot when I modified Whispers (I changed it around lots, because my party was higher-level than what the adventure was written for, acts slowly so minor encounters waste a lot of time and bore everyone, and ended up completing a large chunk of their mission by page 12 of the booklet). Anyway, I looked at the description of the vessel, talking about the faded paint and the hole in its side, and I decided to make it heavily modified indeed. The Fury is a bit faster than most vessels in the short-run. Most creature comforts have been ruthlessly stripped out, allowing the ship to carry more crew and weaponry instead. It's also been strengthened and reinforced internally, although there are still weaknesses due to stress and age. The gaping hole in the side, however, isn't just a sign of its decay: Jade's Fury has two additional ballistas that can be positioned to fire out of that hole hidden inside. Additionally, the ship has a rather large crew, a few undead dormant in the cargo hold, and a ramming prow. I took the original idea and turned it into something that's a real warship, although one that isn't overtly a skyship of battle. With the extra forward-facing weaponry and large crew of veteran soldiers and undead, it's definitely designed for fast attack. In terms of something that Lyrandar would actually design... remember that House Cannith and Zilargo have a lot to do with the process, too. I think one thing that complicates Lyrandar making warships is the fact that you really need an heir to control one of these things efficiently (there are other ways to do it, too, but the wheel of wind and water and a possessor of the Lesser Mark is the most reliable). So they'd probably view it as pushing their neutrality a bit much. Likewise, if there were warships being used without Lyrandar heirs to man the helm, I would think those would be coming directly from Zilargo or Cannith rather than Lyrandar.
zambuka 03-23-05, 10:31 PM	Lightning bolt and fireball are the most appropriate spells. But as a_psh stated the ship doesn't have to be made by Lyrander. In fact the ships are actually made by Cannith and Zilargo. Even Orien was involved in the their development. They even built some with air elementals instead of fire elementals. I see something like this as the flag ship for house Denieth. It may not have seen service during the last war because of the amount of time to build it (remember these airships only appeared in the last few years of the war), but it makes for good PR when it comes to displaying their services now. As for controling these ships the ECS does hint that there are other items like the wheel of wind and water that allow other dragonmarks to have a similar control over an airship. The only reason they are called Lyrander airships, is because Lyrander was the first to use them and the only one to offer commercial services with them. When it comes to statting a ship like this I would recommend not going beyond what armaments it carries and how fast it goes and how many it can comfortably carry. A few mounted eternal wands of fireball and lightning bolt plus 4 or 5 enchanted ballistae should do the trick for weaponry. The speed would probably be no faster than a normal airship (while this may have more advanced magics it is much much bigger and heavier). Don't worry about how much damage it can take, just play along with common sense and drama. A group of angry barbarians with axes aren't likely to do anything more than cut a convenient hole in the hull while a WF Titan can do structural damage. A fireball may scorch the hull and start a few minor fires while a lightning bolt will blast through and injure some crew. Basically allow whatever makes for the most exiting events to happen, but keep it believable. Don't do the Star Trek: Voyager thing and have it blasted to bits every second episode and then be in almost perfect working order the next episode.
depolarization 03-24-05, 05:23 PM	I don't have the ECS in front of me, but I believe the ships were just invented and being built towards the end of the last war. Maybe someone with more access to resources can discuss further. But I see no reason not to put weapons on air ships as long as they are somewhat lightweight. After all, that's why Breland has the mobile fortress for really "big guns."
SilentOne 03-29-05, 12:35 PM	I don't think Cannith and Zilargo definately need to be involved (though I can see the Aundair branch of Cannith aligning itself with Lyrandar to make these as a joint Aundair effort). Anyone with the Bind Elemental item creation feat can do the binding process, it's just that gnomes are the ones to most likely have them. Even then, rogue artificers could be hired by Lyrandar if they really felt like doing it entirely themselves, though itt might cost more. Warships that aren't sponsored by Lyrandar would probably immediately attract its attention and cause them to recall their ships for immediate refitting (Just a thought, though most likely). Question though: Would production of this lead to a Second Last War? Karrnath destroyed the bridge seperating itself from Aundair, but with the warships, it would only provide them with added defence as they could lead an air attack. Would Queen ir'Wynarn want revenge against Kaius III, or maybe it would involve Lyrandar (just Lyrandar, not all of Aundair) waging a personal war against Cannith. Thoughts/comments on what creation would lead to?
darkthought 03-29-05, 01:16 PM	Use Rods instead of wands. Rods can be used by anyone, no magic aptitude needed for the most part. Push the little jeweled button and... wait? Was there an enemy there a second ago? *shrug* :P If you really want to go nuts, stick some extra fire elementals, or air elementals with electricity in kyber crystals that are mounted on a turret. Point the crystal at your enemy, make a ranged touch attack and flip the switch. Th elemental energy is syphoned off and a big boom happens. Give them a recharge time in rounds, so as to not be too unbalancing. Think of it as nearly killing the elemental inside by draining the majority of it's energy off to make the attack. It'll take a little bit for it to generate fire/air/whatever back up to a level where it could discharge. You could also stick a honking huge one on the bow as to have a wave-motion-cannon type thing. One shot, one dead city. Of course the dragons could take offense to someone having a weapon that would rival their own breath and magic...
EvilDrPuma 03-29-05, 01:50 PM	There would be some real practical and political issues with a Lyrandar warship. To control the bound elemental, a wheel of wind and water is required, and it can only be operated by a pilot with the lesser Mark of Storm and the wind's favor ability. Dragonmarked pilots aren't so easy to come by that House Lyrandar can afford to risk them on combat duties. Also, for Lyrandar to make combat airships and pilots available to all interested parties (necessary to maintain the house's official neutrality) would likely be taken as a challenge to House Deneith's near-monopoly on mercenary services. Warforged aren't such a challenge--House Cannith sold warforged, it didn't hire them out.
Edymnion 03-29-05, 09:57 PM	Warship Airships were tried as an experiment in Eberron, but they were found to be unreliable and too costly to be efficient. The City of Towers novel opens with a big fight, including a Stormship (essentially an Airship built for war). It only took one Sorcerer casting Dispel Magic to bring the entire thing crashing into the ground. Really, think of Airships in Eberron more like the Space Shuttles of today. Do they exist? Yup. Are they routinely used? Yeah, pretty much. Are the PCs ever going to get to own one? Not bloody likely. Could the Space Shuttle be used as a weapon? Yeah, but for the price and the vulnrabilities, it would not be wise.
stembolt 03-30-05, 01:03 AM	This topic has been examined before in significant detail. The short answer is warships are technologically and politically unlikely. The first thing to consider is the source material. Other than the information in the ECSB I disregard most of the material. Whispers of the vampires blade. Generally the author has a very poor understanding of the Eberron world so I take his contributions with a grain of salt. I note that none of his “inventions” have a price tag. They could cost millions of GP. Even with the most cheating RAW interpretation vessels will cost twice as much with the wheel also costing twice as much. A realistic price is probably closer to 4 or 5 times original costs. (this is given the magic items rules for restrictions decreasing pricing). The most important thing to remember is that the airships were designed gamewise to be limited. They were designed with an eye to the fact that they were made by Cannith with the help of the Gnomes, using material from Argonessen and they have to be piloted by house Lyrander members of some certain power. That’s the interesting bit. Changing that is like, introducing the shadow weave or spellfire. Or using one of the variant magic systems from UA. It is a fundamental part of the world. Non Lyrander flying ships are generally non interesting, unless that’s really what you want to do with your world. Getting to the other source of material. Without reviewing marked for death in any way, ignore the bit on airships. If you really want to know why PM me and I will email you. I havent read City of towers yet.
SilentOne 03-30-05, 12:45 PM	Hm... I don't think dispel magic would work on a warship. Assuming they succeed (which I find unlikely, with a maximum of +10 on their check against something this powerful) it only supresses it for 1d4 rounds. The only way a dispel would be harmful to an airship is if it could actually supress its insane caster level (considering flaming as a weapon enhancement has something like an 18th level caster to make) would be with a Mordenkainen's Disjunction (or, for you 3.5 people, which I suppose is everyone on this board, Mage's Disjunction [but seriously, Mordenkainen's is so much sweeter, just the name...]). And if that happens, then ya, the ship would be screwed if it failed its Will save. But keep in mind, Mage's Disjunction is a 9TH LEVEL SPELL. How many soldiers will be toting around that kind of power? Added note is the range (short) which requires the spellcaster to be mighty close to the ship when cast. Any ship that does not shoot down a person in flying at it without assitance should be destroyed, and the crew hung for idiocy (which is actually quite contagious, I've heard). Now, onto something else. The elemental rods were exactly what I was envisioning, with a 1d4+1 cooldown time or such (like a breath weapon), with 1/side being shaped into a cone (via the metamagic feat Shape Spell). The more I think about it though, the more the Inspired make sense for doing this (which leads to such fun as energy ball and energy bolt.) Basic idea for how the events would run with the Inspired behind the scenes would be something like this: (don't you think?) -Lyrandar begins making the new ships, recalling all of their current ones to be reoutfitted. (Cannith and the Inspired helping create them of course). -The new ships fly around Karnnath and attack the Lhazar Principalities, providing the Inspired with a foothold in Eberron. -Joint Aundair and Riedran forces begin a 2-way attack on Karnnath and the Mror Holds (I'm thinking ir'Wynarn was been dominated or something by now). -War escalates as countries join various sides, most getting defeated by Aundair, yada yada yada... Dragons show up from Argonessen... Haven't really worked out the end yet. What do you think?
Edymnion 03-30-05, 01:06 PM	Hm... I don't think dispel magic would work on a warship. Assuming they succeed (which I find unlikely, with a maximum of +10 on their check against something this powerful) it only supresses it for 1d4 rounds.Airships are magical items, just like everything else. You hit it with a Dispel, it's powers are supressed for 1d4 rounds, and it begins to fall. You fall 150' the first round, and 300' per round after that. How long do you think it'll take that ship to crash into the ground, and take some truely massive damage from the fall?
Endless_Helix 03-30-05, 02:29 PM	Something that expensive would not be put at risk. There would be trained counter mages onboard, probably 3-4 with wands of Dispel Magic. The sheer destructive potential would be too tempting for Lyrandar not to try. Also all of the houses have artificers amongst their dragonmarked ranks. The airship is unique in it's conception in that multiple houses worked on it. I suspect that Lyrandar can replicate the technology very easily now. Only a little innovation would be needed to turn it into a warship. Also the ship would be warded with some spell resistence, probably 18-25 pending on price and size and importance. For weapons, A bound elemental weapon would be cool. But I would make it basically a higher-powered fireball or disintigrate and some mundane eternal wands of fireball for nailing infantry. I have this image of a half elf on a gun placement, that looks like six rods attached to a flaming disk, floating arround a variation of the wheel of wind and water, just blasting away with his REA Rapid Elemental Artillery. The Wheel spinning and each rod shoots out a lesser orb of fire when it reaches the highest point of the circle. A line of fire is drawn on the side of an enemy airship. Or you could have a balista that fires a shot with a bound fire elemental that breaks out upon impact with a True Shot spell on it. Of course There would then be anti-air emplacements or interceptors designed specificly to destroy airships. The only problem is that the ring makes a great target, especially at night. So mages have a really good shot at it, mo matter what.
Edymnion 03-30-05, 02:43 PM	The Wheel spinning and each rod shoots out a lesser orb of fire when it reaches the highest point of the circle.Nah, go full tilt. Use a full fledged Fire Orb spell so that you get more orbs per charge, and each of them explode in splash damage when they hit. You know you gotta have the plume of fire going up from where they hit the ground :)
Hayt 03-30-05, 08:26 PM	as far as your question about warmages is concerned, i think karrnath would be an ideal candidate for a warmage academy. karrnath has a strong military heritage, so much so that every able bodied man and woman is required to serve in the army or navy for at least two years. just seems to fit.
zambuka 03-30-05, 09:06 PM	... and it can only be operated by a pilot with the lesser Mark of Storm and the wind's favor ability. ... and they have to be piloted by house Lyrander members of some certain power. Um... no they don't. See page 267 of the ECS, the bit down the bottom about controlling an elemental vessel. This pretty much allows the PCs to eventually own and operate their own airship through means fair or foul without the need to hire a Lyrander pilot. It also opens the door to privateering and air pirate style adventures. I got the impression that only the first airships were exclusive to Lyrander. However since it was Cannith and Orien who pretty much designed and built these I don't see why Lyrander would have the monopoly airships. They would simply have the majority of airships, since they were the first to own them. Lyrander would also be associated wiith airships primarily because of their use of these in their trade routes, they are the ones who commercialised the airship. Now the war is over pretty much anyone with deep enough pockets to buy a vessel would have one on order and this means that warships are likely under construction. The main reason Zilargo is the base of construction is the great ship works at Trolanport and the accessibility to soarwood imported from Aerenal. Warships may be under development, after all Lyrander are using a chunk of the Talent desert in norther Valenar as a testing ground for something.
SilentOne 03-30-05, 10:44 PM	Maximum on 20d6 damage from falling remember, and then the ship would get to subtract its hardness. Ya, it would hurt it, but then it would take off and annihilate the (un)lucky mage that got the 20 on its dispel check. If Orien tried to get in on the airship business, I think they would quickly face the wrath of Lyrandar for monopolizing the travel industry. Orien already has the lightning rails, so anything more would probably spark at least an intrigue ridden conflict between the houses... of course, this could be the reason as to why Lyrandar is making the warships to begin with... -Orien begins its own airship travel industry, causing Lyrandar to retract its own ships. This serves a double purpose. First, Oriens existing airship capacity would be taxed beyond its ability, most likely causing them to shut down. Also, Lyrandar ships get refitted with the new elemental weapons, with the help of new breakthroughs. -Lyrandar begins to break up the lightning rails with its new ships. Sonic Bolts destroy miles of conductor stones, shutting down rails and preventing alot of travel inside Khorvaire. This goes before the campaign/war start I detailed earlier... What're your ideas on the ideas presented? I'll try to find my notes on my more detailed ideas for this and post them later, but I figure that I'd send this up first to give you guys time to think (and any girls reading, despite the stereotypes).
Roxlimn 03-30-05, 11:09 PM	I think the reason they're called "Lyrandar Airships" is because only Lyrandar is allowed to possess them to any reasonable degree. This is not to say that neither Orien nor Cannith can acquire an equivalent number of ships. This is just is to say that Lyrandar seems to have acquired the general right to ships, including Airships, it seems. This means no warring between the Houses. No serious House intrigues, either. The War of the Mark is something no one wants to repeat so there's pretty strong pressure to resolve things amicably, if not altogether above table. While I can see intrigue based campaigns and adventures revolving around the shifting pressures and opinions regarding Ariships and who should have them, I don't see an out and out competitive war between Houses. These guys are monopolies and each has a tacit agreement not to interfere with each other's prerogatives. War would be bad for everyone's business. In the same vein, I don't see Lyrandar making a serious bid to undercut major Orien prerogatives in Rail services. That's just asking for trouble, and no one wants that. I think Lyrandar would generally and voluntarily restrict itself to services that are obviously geared best for Airships, with healthy and respectful gestures to Orien, of course. High Speed and unusual passnger travel would be one of these. High value perishable goods are another. I don't think that Airship privateers are altogether unlikely, but I don't think that there would be any much of these. They certainly wouldn't prey on air shipping. Risking Lyrandar ire with just one Airship under your wing is all too likely to result in early retirement. Taking on private passengers on out of the way locations with respectful commissions to Lyrandar is more my vision of what these "privateers" are like. Preying on normal shipping is also doable for them.
Euangelion 03-31-05, 12:35 AM	1. The ECS does mention that there are a few airships in privateer hands. 2. The very most important thing to remember about airships (as well as soarwood ships, lightning rails, and Orien coaches) is that they exist for only one reason: plot devices making it easier for the party to get from point A to point B quickly and without a lot of random wilderness encounters. The "how"s and "why"s of the things don't really matter as long as they accomplish that task. 3. The most powerful warship ever is the aircraft carrier. Thus the most powerful air warship would be one that carries a group of flying creatures that can attack any target on the ground with sword and/or spell without getting the airship itself anywhere near the action, and also defend the airship at a distance should someone else attack it from the air. My personal preference are gargoyles: great DR, don't need to eat, can fly, but anything medium size or smaller that can fly could do quite well. Pixies anyone? :D
stembolt 03-31-05, 02:29 AM	Um... no they don't. See page 267 of the ECS, the bit down the bottom about controlling an elemental vessel. This pretty much allows the PCs to eventually own and operate their own airship through means fair or foul without the need to hire a Lyrander pilot. It also opens the door to privateering and air pirate style adventures. Yes for PCs, remember EBERRON not FR. While charm monster or characters with high charisma checks are not unknown in Eberron they do not grow on trees. There is also the matter of diminishing returns. Why mount a fireball chucker on an airship when you can just have a guy with a wand? Essentially you are correct that the PCs can get an airship, we are not talking about that. We are talking about the fabrication of warships. I think the reason they're called "Lyrandar Airships" is because only Lyrandar is allowed to possess them to any reasonable degree. This is not to say that neither Orien nor Cannith can acquire an equivalent number of ships. This is just is to say that Lyrandar seems to have acquired the general right to ships, including Airships, it seems. This is a good point. The Dragonmarked houses operate guilds and therefore do have monopolies and legitimate legal recourse. There are cases of stepping on each others toes but this is notable in its rarity. Besides it is not in the interest of Cannith to sell ships to others. In the given economic scheme they have a full time job keeping Lyrander supplied. Why would they sell to competitors when that would ultimately drive down the price of their own finished goods? 1. The ECS does mention that there are a few airships in privateer hands. So? 2. The very most important thing to remember about airships (as well as soarwood ships, lightning rails, and Orien coaches) is that they exist for only one reason: plot devices making it easier for the party to get from point A to point B quickly and without a lot of random wilderness encounters. The "how"s and "why"s of the things don't really matter as long as they accomplish that task. They started that way, but they are more than that in the finished product. They demonstrate the interconnectedness of the great houses. And they are plot devices in their own right. 3. The most powerful warship ever is the aircraft carrier. Thus the most powerful air warship would be one that carries a group of flying creatures that can attack any target on the ground with sword and/or spell without getting the airship itself anywhere near the action, and also defend the airship at a distance should someone else attack it from the air. While the aircraft carrier is the most powerful warship it is not because it carries flying attackers, or to be more precise ONLY because it carries flying attackers. The real reason is a combination of Nuclear power, offshore reloading, the use of sonar planes/helicopters, and radar planes. The analogy does not hold.
Endless_Helix 03-31-05, 08:52 AM	Nah... Aircraft carriers are the most powerful ship because they can carry the most firepower and get it from point A to point B very easily. just the fact that a ship can carry fighters and bombers makes it more powerful because of the range and the maneuverabilty it now holds. Also it's a mobile firebase. Gargoyles wouldn't work because that involves too many houses. Vidalis is the main supplier of gargoyles currently. I would probably have basically a bound elemental with some rods of fireballs that could be remotely controlled from on board the ship with some sort of goggles for sight. But to be entirely honest I wouldn't use this sort of ship because I think that Lyrandar would emulate the successful navies of the time. I see eberron as just turning into a rennaissance period. Rennaissance warships didn't have fighters or bomber or anything tactically similar. I suspect that also since fuel isn't a problem, carriers would never be made. That was one of the original reasons aircraft carriers were made, to increase the range of the airforce.
SilentOne 03-31-05, 01:02 PM	Interesting points about the carriers, one I hadn't previously considered. Moving armies around in the time undetected would require something along the lines of hundreds of mass invisibility spells. However, with the use of modified airships (taking out any and all luxury items in the ships and replacing them with simple cots and such to house the troops) would allow the transport of large groups of soldiers without being detected. After all, how many people, when looking up at a passing airship, consider the possibility of it landing and unloading a full battallion of soliders at their feet? Also, this would allow easy passage of things like mountains, rivers, even the Mournland. Attacks on the Talenta halflings would be possible because every attack would be on the attackers terms, without any chance of retaliation... Just a thought.
Euangelion 03-31-05, 07:57 PM	Nah... Gargoyles wouldn't work because that involves too many houses. Vidalis is the main supplier of gargoyles currently... Yeah, in Sharn. But that doesn't mean someone else can't go out and hire some themselves. They're sentient beings, not magebred animals. But to be entirely honest I wouldn't use this sort of ship because I think that Lyrandar would emulate the successful navies of the time. I see eberron as just turning into a rennaissance period. Rennaissance warships didn't have fighters or bomber or anything tactically similar. That's because in the rennaissance we didn't have people who could fly themselves from one ship to another. It only took us another few hundred years to develop the technology to do so. Gargoyles, pixies, ogre mages, etc., etc., etc., already have that ability naturally, and others have it through magic. Then there's rings of feather falling and elite feathertroopers are born. (I know, terrible name. One of them will probably beat me up for it.) I suspect that also since fuel isn't a problem, carriers would never be made. That was one of the original reasons aircraft carriers were made, to increase the range of the airforce. Well, there you go. Spells run out. Flying creatures get tired. Might as well fly back to an airship 20 minutes away than try to get back to home base 20 hours away.
zambuka 03-31-05, 09:15 PM	Yes for PCs, remember EBERRON not FR. While charm monster or characters with high charisma checks are not unknown in Eberron they do not grow on trees. While there certainly aren't enough suitable characters in Eberron to create fleets of airships there are certainly enough that there could be a few air pirates out there. A high charisma is much more common than someone capable of casting control elemental and does not need high levels to achieve, a first level commoner with an 18 charisma is just as capable of piloting an airship as a 10th level bard with a charisma of 18. Certainly it still leaves you with the occasional control problem but that just adds to the fun. Essentially you are correct that the PCs can get an airship, we are not talking about that. We are talking about the fabrication of warships. True, but the post started off with a query about making a warship. One of the reasons some are giving for there not being such vessels is the political implications of house Lyrander owning and operating them. If anyone can own and operate an airship (at a huge cost) then there is now no reason why they wouldn't be available to anyone with deep enough pockets. Even if they don't see combat they make great scouting vessels, observation platforms for overseeing a battleground, and are fantastic for quickly delivering supplies to the front line. After the Last War, every nation probably has one or two on order. The vessel in question (the linked image) is something I picture Denieth commissioning. It makes a great base of operations for larger mercenary operations and is fantastic PR for the house. Just imagine this thing drifting majestically up to the Lyrander docking tower in Sharn. Besides it is not in the interest of Cannith to sell ships to others. In the given economic scheme they have a full time job keeping Lyrander supplied. Why would they sell to competitors when that would ultimately drive down the price of their own finished goods? Becasue in the short term the increased demand actually drives the price of these craft up quite significantly. With enough people asking then Cannith and Zilargo can pretty much set the price. If just Lyrander is asking then the price is likely fixed due to inter-house agreements and politics, something that Cannith most definitely would not want. In the long term this still gives Cannith plenty of room for profit since they pretty much have the manufacturing monopoly. Then there is all the resources originally set aside for manufacturing the warforged. With the war over and an embargo on the manufacture of warforged these resources can now be redirected to something like airships. If some other group starts manufacturing these then so what? Cannith can still out do any new group because of their experience. If the new group does actually figure out how to do things better, then Cannith is likely to take over this new operation, one way or another. It is unlikely another house will produce these commercially so there should be no problem there.
stembolt 04-01-05, 12:20 AM	An interesting approximation of a carrier would be a ship that is protected against scrying. A major component of the effectiveness of aircraft carriers is that they are stealth vessels. (Let that sink in.) They use AWACs planes to provide radar. That means that the ships radar is silent. The number one way to find a ship is by tracing its radar back. Similarly they use subhunting copters. Since the copters are not concerned if they can be seen they use active sonar. Furthermore the carrier convoy (ships and planes) keeps people from finding the carrier. Electronic warfare is central to the use of carriers. I used to work on related systems (now I work in commercial radar systems) so I know a thing or two about EW and that’s about all I can say. Moving armies around in the time undetected would require something along the lines of hundreds of mass invisibility spells. However, with the use of modified airships (taking out any and all luxury items in the ships and replacing them with simple cots and such to house the troops) would allow the transport of large groups of soldiers without being detected. After all, how many people, when looking up at a passing airship, consider the possibility of it landing and unloading a full battallion of soliders at their feet? Actually less dramatic movements can be more effective. Consider the 300 Spartans holding back the Persians. Or consider modern special forces. If you could land teams of saboteurs near an approaching army they could do significant harm. Also think about sieges. While there certainly aren't enough suitable characters in Eberron to create fleets of airships there are certainly enough that there could be a few air pirates out there. Yes, so you agree with me. A high charisma is much more common than someone capable of casting control elemental and does not need high levels to achieve, a first level commoner with an 18 charisma is just as capable of piloting an airship as a 10th level bard with a charisma of 18. Certainly it still leaves you with the occasional control problem but that just adds to the fun Yes I call a 40% failure on EVERY command to be fun. A high cha helps you execute an emergency docking, you certainly are not going to be joyriding around. Becasue in the short term the increased demand actually drives the price of these craft up quite significantly. <snip> I’m going to say maybe, which means “No, but it is not worth arguing about.” If you want there to be this kind of conflict, go for it. If it is going to be part of your campaign then factor it in.
Roxlimn 04-01-05, 02:56 AM	zambuka: Becasue in the short term the increased demand actually drives the price of these craft up quite significantly. With enough people asking then Cannith and Zilargo can pretty much set the price. If just Lyrander is asking then the price is likely fixed due to inter-house agreements and politics, something that Cannith most definitely would not want. In the long term this still gives Cannith plenty of room for profit since they pretty much have the manufacturing monopoly. Then there is all the resources originally set aside for manufacturing the warforged. With the war over and an embargo on the manufacture of warforged these resources can now be redirected to something like airships. If some other group starts manufacturing these then so what? Cannith can still out do any new group because of their experience. If the new group does actually figure out how to do things better, then Cannith is likely to take over this new operation, one way or another. It is unlikely another house will produce these commercially so there should be no problem there. You're talking about demand, prices, and profits here like you were talking about a free market. You're not. Especially between the major Houses, prerogatives and sales are driven much more by politics than it is by demand, because they're all powerful monopolies. Even if there is more need for the warships, Cannith cannot increase the price just like that because that price has been settled on through the complex relationships between the Houses, something that won't change in the manner you can expect just because other people want the warships. Very probably, part of the agreement between Cannith and Lyrandar is that the price will be set for them, they get priority for new ships, and no one gets new ships without Lyrandar's say so. How can this be so? Well, Lyrandar does control the whole world's shipping, so it's not exactly smart to get them anrgy. All the Houses are interrelated so no sale between the Houses can be free from political influence. Add to the this to horrors of the War of the Mark and you can see where the Houses are quite apt to tiptoe around one another. These Houses do not deal in currency as crass as money. They deal in influence and power. Increased marginal profits made from sales is probably a good return, but it's just money. There are many things money can't buy. If Cannith starts pitting Houses against each other in a bidding war for something as influential as sky lanes, you can bet all the other Houses are going to start looking at Cannith sideways. "Exactly why is Cannith so set on putting us at each other's throats?" will probably be the very first thing to enter each patriarch's or matriarch's suspicious mind. It's not quite as simple as free market forces, as you can see.
stembolt 04-01-05, 06:54 PM	You're talking about demand, prices, and profits here like you were talking about a free market. You're not. Especially between the major Houses, prerogatives and sales are driven much more by politics than it is by demand, because they're all powerful monopolies. You are mostly right, but let me make a few points to the same people you are talking to. Lyrander does not control the worlds shipping. They control the sea and air. Orien controls the rail and other ground shipping. (that’s the only thing you got wrong btw) A guild generally has competition, but not market competition. The market is controlled by the guild and the internal members compete with each other. Usually the guild sets the price and the competition is in quality. So for example loaves of bread cost x per pound, but the tastiest bread sells out. That makes it hard to have a price competition when the price is the thing you fix. Now it may not be that airships are price fixed, but you can see how standard market assumptions may be irrelevant. Now there is one noteworthy case of toe stepping in the ECSB. The supply of mercenaries from Droaam by House Thrask(sp?). This is often touted as a case why there should be non Lyrander flying ships. The point that people are missing is that house Thrask is in the wrong. They are not allowed to do that. So why do they? Well they think they can get away with it. And it makes for an interesting element of tension for DMs to use. Eberron was created with the idea that the world should have these elements to make cool adventures. In my opinion the matter will eventually be settled and House Thrask will have to give up the mercenary business, of course they may receive a settlement from House Denith that really helps their position as the underdog house. And resentment may become gratitude (who would have thought that the USAs best ally would be the country they revolted from?) and the two houses may become strong partners.
the.eberron.traveler 04-01-05, 09:41 PM	Yes I call a 40% failure on EVERY command to be fun. A high cha helps you execute an emergency docking, you certainly are not going to be joyriding around. Exactly. That's the main issue. Commoners can control the ships sometimes. Just think about docking. Even someone with Cha 18 would have to start trying to make the ship significantly slow down way before they reach the dock, just to make sure he has enough of a chance to make it stop when he does get there. So how about pirates? Let's say a pirate vessel, with a Cha 18 pilot is chasing a House Lyrandaar airship. The House vessel takes evasive action, changing its direction every thirty seconds or so. With the command rate the pirate pilot has, they'll probably be left behind very very soon. And that's if the elemental is simply not responsive. If it decides to bring the vessel to a complete stop, you can say goodbye to the prey, you're never catching up with them. Without specialized magical items asserting control, effectively more powerful versions of what the Houses are using, it's virtually impossible to use airships in any sort of demanding use. Finally, a job as an airship pilot can't pay that well. Most characters with a Cha of 18 probably have better and more comfortable things to do, such as getting involved in politics or getting a rich boyfriend/girlfriend.
stembolt 04-01-05, 11:49 PM	Exactly. It is less funny when you over-commit. You have to subtly let people know you are joking or they may think that you are not kidding. So for example say: “Hey 40% works as well as 50%, 80% of the time.” Or something similar.
Beleriphon 04-02-05, 12:40 AM	It is less funny when you over-commit. You have to subtly let people know you are joking or they may think that you are not kidding. So for example say: “Hey 40% works as well as 50%, 80% of the time.” Or something similar. Whats great is that I'm pretty sure that mathematically thats true.
SilentOne 04-02-05, 02:19 AM	It mathmatically works, but lets not get into the details. Trust me on this one, or work it out yourself, but it doesn't matter. Anyways, I still haven't seen anything about a Second War. Is this just an idiotic idea in its entirity, or do I have something that might work? Ideas?