Magic forbidden in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Magic forbidden in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Crazy_DM
05-07-06, 09:19 AM Hi folks,

I want to come up with a new idea for the Eberron Setting.
The idea is based on the new magical concepts for DnD thanks to Magic of Incarnum and Tome of Magic.

What do you think would happen if magic would be forbidden in Eberron. With that I mean the art.
After the destruction of Cyre the five nations are very serious about the danger coming with the use of magic. So the only ones who are allowed to use magic are the magewrites and artificers. The topic would become something like holding the status quo: Lightning Rail, Elemental crafts, warforgeds...they are usefull and partially understood.
But to prevent some similar event like the day of mourning it is forbidden to unveil new magic secrets.

So a wizard might have some sort of licence and all the powerfull spells and records ever made were locked away or just burned down.
Within the five nations there exists some sort of guards - who watch out for casters who cast forbidden spells.

What do you think about this basic concept? Yes - I have to work out the details ;)

Cheers, Crazy DM
ieattrollsforbreakfast
05-07-06, 09:49 AM I think its a bit unbelievable, its like banning electricity and halting all technological growth in the modern world. Besides, just because something is forbidden by law doesn't mean it won't happen. Afterall, I'm pretty sure even before the Mourning it was forbidden to destroy and entire country and all the innocent within.
Also any country that decides to halt all magical growth makes itself extremely vulnerable should the Last War start anew. The nations will not trust each other to give up their best defences, and thats assuming it was one of the Five Nations that caused the Mourning. If it was an outside power, they are even more doomed if they forsake magic.
Edymnion
05-07-06, 02:14 PM Yeah, nuclear weapons are the greatest threat to the existance of the human race that has ever existed, but we still use nuclear energy. And even if Khovaire somehow managed to outlaw electricity... I mean magic, that wouldn't stop anybody else from using it. The Areneal have been practicing the art of magic for thousands and thousands of years, and there's no way the Deathless would just give it up. Neither would the Serene Barbarians, not to mention the fact that you'd have to outlaw sorcerers, who are born with the ability and will most likely manifest it if they want to or not.

But agreed, it would be like asking people today to give up electricity, except for government purposes. No one in their right mind would go along with that.
Gilgiga of the Hunt
05-07-06, 03:37 PM An outright ban would just be silly, magic is woven into the world so throughly it would be like banning electricty here on earth.

However there are laws in certian areas against certan spells. However the crime is what you do with it. Casting Fireball in Sharn for example is illegal, and the illegal spells are something I do enforce.
So is an area dispell.

But that's much lesser then what you're talking about.

As for the day of mourning, if it was caused by some sort of magic, here's what I could see happening. Something like the Aes Sedai from Wheel of Time, and their policy on Bailfire (and the hinted at nastier weaves) where just that specfic branch of magic is banned.
But again that's more of just a baned list of spells, not magic in generall.
DoveArrow
05-07-06, 03:41 PM Actually,there's already a place in Eberron where the local populace is forbidden from practicing magic. It's called Riedra. In fact, the Inspired lords actively seek out members of the local populace who display either magical or psionic abilities, in order to prevent them from becoming a threat to their power.

Now if you wanted to spread that trend to Khorvaire, perhaps one or more of the rulers of the Five Nations has begun to listen to the Riedran ambassadors' warnings of uncontrolled magical power in the local population. Perhaps they have been convinced that only members of the twelve dragonmarked houses should be allowed to practice magic, and only in those areas considered to be of practial value. Perhaps the PCs become involved because they have uncovered an Inspired plot to take over the dragonmarked houses and are now working with the fugitive kalashtar, who are also attempting to break Khorvaire free from the closing grip of the Inspired lords.
JayceMD
05-08-06, 03:17 PM <snip> the Serene Barbarians <snip>

best inadvertent oxymoron ever.

"I shall raze their cities to the ground, slaughter their menfolk, and sell their women into slavery....through the power of Zen" -- a serene barbarian
locksley92
05-09-06, 01:31 PM Maybe, you could expand the Blackened Book (Sharn:City of Towers) to a world-spanning organization.
Koriel
05-09-06, 05:21 PM The 1st Ed. DMG had an illustration called Emirikol the Chaotic, which showed a mage riding through the streets blasting passers-by and setting them on fire. I think any civilized society in D&D would impose some kind of laws and restrictions to discourage the use of wanton and destructive magic to protect civilians and the property. In our campaigns we also had organizations and individuals who specialized in dealing with magic-using miscreants.

Due to the widespread and pervasive nature of magic in everyday life in Eberron, magic is probably more accepted there than in most other campaign settings so it's not going to be feared and mistrusted - you're not going to see outright bans or witch hunts. Every commoner in Aundaire is said to know a cantrip or two. But at the same time, the grave consequences of the misuse of magic are also well known. So I wouldn't have a problem with some restrictions or licensing of magic, such as a court order telling a convicted criminal they were prohibited from casting spells.

Would the vendor of a magic shop sell a wand of fireballs to any stranger who walked in off the street? Some lawless backwater in Q'barra might be like the wild west where drunken mages settled bar fights with duels of destructive magics, but a major city in Thrane would probably not tolerate such things. Magic can be used for great harm and it's not hard to envision some community with a lawful bent from imposing some reasonable rules and regulations.

If you're a mage, it might say so on your identification papers. Magewrights might be required to be members of a trades guild just like stonemasons and bakers were in medieval times. A kingdom might have a Ministry of Magic to maintain a registry of arcane casters, promulgate rules regarding magic, and employ specialists who were capable of bringing magic-wielding law-breakers to justice. (The Harry Potter books have this sort of thing.) The Church of the Silver Flame might have a chapter devoted to hunting down and punishing those who use magic for evil. The 2nd Ed. rules even had a paladin variant called an inquisitor who was devoted to finding and dealing with evil arcane casters. I don't know if 3.5 Ed. rules have anything similar but I think it would make a good prestige class.

I think if you tried to impose an outright ban on magic, you'd probably have a lot of disgruntled mages attempting to overthrow the government - "Ye can take my spellbook when ye pry it from my cold, dead fingers! Come and take it, ye muggles!"
turalisj
05-09-06, 11:44 PM Yeah, nuclear weapons are the greatest threat to the existance of the human race that has ever existed, but we still use nuclear energy. And even if Khovaire somehow managed to outlaw electricity... I mean magic, that wouldn't stop anybody else from using it. The Areneal have been practicing the art of magic for thousands and thousands of years, and there's no way the Deathless would just give it up. Neither would the Serene Barbarians, not to mention the fact that you'd have to outlaw sorcerers, who are born with the ability and will most likely manifest it if they want to or not.

But agreed, it would be like asking people today to give up electricity, except for government purposes. No one in their right mind would go along with that.

Don't forget the dozens of magical academies who would be pissied if magic was outlawed.
And preventing the wanton use of magic? Um, hello, I think that's something the dragons would handle.

And yet, that raises another question; Where were the dragons in the Last War? Were they biding thier time, reading the prophecies to see if they should enter the war? If so, then did they also see Vol coming into power and the Mourning?
Lokiyn
05-10-06, 02:34 AM And yet, that raises another question; Where were the dragons in the Last War? Were they biding thier time, reading the prophecies to see if they should enter the war? If so, then did they also see Vol coming into power and the Mourning?

Here is a question to your question,

What in the world was going on that was important enough that the dragons were dealing with that rather than check out the imminent decimation of a small country.

and your local prophecy shows a light scattering of showers with a 90% chance of DOOM...
Khalek D'Ariana
06-07-06, 06:10 PM Would be nice if more people responding to the OP with how it could work, rather than naysaying. His/her campaign, remember?

I agree that it would be a radical shift away from the essential style of Eberron (and not one I would prefer), but it doesn't mean it couldn't work...

As mentioned, once we suspend disbelief at the nations coming together to agree on that, we need a way of enforcing it, a non-national body of police, as it were - something like the UN... with teeth. Magical teeth. Of doom.

Yup, I reckon this group would use magic to contain the worst offenders. Even better, have it PC driven once they get to be the higher level players. PCs are employed as agents of a political movement that wants to ban magic, and that movement is gaining support throughout the nations. PCs are used as enforcers against the purportedly criminal magic users, and have pretty much a carte blanche in how they deal with such naughty ones. Of course, the more tyrannical the PCs, the more the various populaces will react against this...

I agree that such a ban would be nigh-on impossible to enforce completely, but so what? Don't compare it to electricity, but instead to guns - we ban them (in the hands of 'bad' people) but there's still gun crime. More positive, everyday uses for magic would be limited to current uses (the freeze that OP mentioned) but magical research would be nipped in the bud at source - equipment. Rule that any research takes 3 times as long (since no universities/libraries unless an enforcer/part of underground, and access is gained. Also no alchemical equipment, less access to reagents unless everyday usage is demonstrated and license procured and fewer teachers willing to help out in an open fashion), and has a good chance of being discovered unless precautions are made- I knew those green flashes at midnight would cause problems!

That'd allow PCs to choose their side, affect the world, and continue to be in a low magic environment...sounds fairly Ebberonian to me :D
Sarlax
06-07-06, 10:44 PM Like others, I can't swallow an immediate outright ban on arcane magic. Galifar could have done it, but when you have multiple nations, how do you enforce it? It's like firearms in the realworld: heads of state in Europe occasionally tried to stop using the weapons, but they'd be overwhelmed by those who kept going.

However, I can see it happening gradually. Suppose some group that's existed for centuries, maybe the Ashbound, that opposes arcane magic. As the innovations in magic ramp up in the age of Galifar, this group always highlights the negatives, such as unwanted migration with the lightning rail.

When the Last War begins, these people have a field day. There are new magic weapons all the time, war machines, and eventually the warforged. If they are successful, people will become distrustful of arcane magic, even though monarchs won't surrender it.

After the Mourning and the war's end, there could be a slow-growing anti-magic sentiment. Magic doesn't get banned, but people dislike it. The various taxes wizards need to pay start to rise, polite signs are put up in restaraunts asking that magic items not be brought in, etc. It gets more expensive to go to the Arcane Congress or pay for the Twelve, fewer people attend, etc.

Give it a few decades and it might be really uncomfortable to be an arcanist in the Five Nations.
TwoSix26
06-09-06, 09:41 AM Crazy_DM,

Do you want to restrict magic so that your players will use the MoI/ToM classes, or do you want them to play standard spellcasters in a more restricted environment?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Crazy_DM 05-07-06, 09:19 AM	Hi folks, I want to come up with a new idea for the Eberron Setting. The idea is based on the new magical concepts for DnD thanks to Magic of Incarnum and Tome of Magic. What do you think would happen if magic would be forbidden in Eberron. With that I mean the art. After the destruction of Cyre the five nations are very serious about the danger coming with the use of magic. So the only ones who are allowed to use magic are the magewrites and artificers. The topic would become something like holding the status quo: Lightning Rail, Elemental crafts, warforgeds...they are usefull and partially understood. But to prevent some similar event like the day of mourning it is forbidden to unveil new magic secrets. So a wizard might have some sort of licence and all the powerfull spells and records ever made were locked away or just burned down. Within the five nations there exists some sort of guards - who watch out for casters who cast forbidden spells. What do you think about this basic concept? Yes - I have to work out the details ;) Cheers, Crazy DM
ieattrollsforbreakfast 05-07-06, 09:49 AM	I think its a bit unbelievable, its like banning electricity and halting all technological growth in the modern world. Besides, just because something is forbidden by law doesn't mean it won't happen. Afterall, I'm pretty sure even before the Mourning it was forbidden to destroy and entire country and all the innocent within. Also any country that decides to halt all magical growth makes itself extremely vulnerable should the Last War start anew. The nations will not trust each other to give up their best defences, and thats assuming it was one of the Five Nations that caused the Mourning. If it was an outside power, they are even more doomed if they forsake magic.
Edymnion 05-07-06, 02:14 PM	Yeah, nuclear weapons are the greatest threat to the existance of the human race that has ever existed, but we still use nuclear energy. And even if Khovaire somehow managed to outlaw electricity... I mean magic, that wouldn't stop anybody else from using it. The Areneal have been practicing the art of magic for thousands and thousands of years, and there's no way the Deathless would just give it up. Neither would the Serene Barbarians, not to mention the fact that you'd have to outlaw sorcerers, who are born with the ability and will most likely manifest it if they want to or not. But agreed, it would be like asking people today to give up electricity, except for government purposes. No one in their right mind would go along with that.
Gilgiga of the Hunt 05-07-06, 03:37 PM	An outright ban would just be silly, magic is woven into the world so throughly it would be like banning electricty here on earth. However there are laws in certian areas against certan spells. However the crime is what you do with it. Casting Fireball in Sharn for example is illegal, and the illegal spells are something I do enforce. So is an area dispell. But that's much lesser then what you're talking about. As for the day of mourning, if it was caused by some sort of magic, here's what I could see happening. Something like the Aes Sedai from Wheel of Time, and their policy on Bailfire (and the hinted at nastier weaves) where just that specfic branch of magic is banned. But again that's more of just a baned list of spells, not magic in generall.
DoveArrow 05-07-06, 03:41 PM	Actually,there's already a place in Eberron where the local populace is forbidden from practicing magic. It's called Riedra. In fact, the Inspired lords actively seek out members of the local populace who display either magical or psionic abilities, in order to prevent them from becoming a threat to their power. Now if you wanted to spread that trend to Khorvaire, perhaps one or more of the rulers of the Five Nations has begun to listen to the Riedran ambassadors' warnings of uncontrolled magical power in the local population. Perhaps they have been convinced that only members of the twelve dragonmarked houses should be allowed to practice magic, and only in those areas considered to be of practial value. Perhaps the PCs become involved because they have uncovered an Inspired plot to take over the dragonmarked houses and are now working with the fugitive kalashtar, who are also attempting to break Khorvaire free from the closing grip of the Inspired lords.
JayceMD 05-08-06, 03:17 PM	<snip> the Serene Barbarians <snip> best inadvertent oxymoron ever. "I shall raze their cities to the ground, slaughter their menfolk, and sell their women into slavery....through the power of Zen" -- a serene barbarian
locksley92 05-09-06, 01:31 PM	Maybe, you could expand the Blackened Book (Sharn:City of Towers) to a world-spanning organization.
Koriel 05-09-06, 05:21 PM	The 1st Ed. DMG had an illustration called Emirikol the Chaotic, which showed a mage riding through the streets blasting passers-by and setting them on fire. I think any civilized society in D&D would impose some kind of laws and restrictions to discourage the use of wanton and destructive magic to protect civilians and the property. In our campaigns we also had organizations and individuals who specialized in dealing with magic-using miscreants. Due to the widespread and pervasive nature of magic in everyday life in Eberron, magic is probably more accepted there than in most other campaign settings so it's not going to be feared and mistrusted - you're not going to see outright bans or witch hunts. Every commoner in Aundaire is said to know a cantrip or two. But at the same time, the grave consequences of the misuse of magic are also well known. So I wouldn't have a problem with some restrictions or licensing of magic, such as a court order telling a convicted criminal they were prohibited from casting spells. Would the vendor of a magic shop sell a wand of fireballs to any stranger who walked in off the street? Some lawless backwater in Q'barra might be like the wild west where drunken mages settled bar fights with duels of destructive magics, but a major city in Thrane would probably not tolerate such things. Magic can be used for great harm and it's not hard to envision some community with a lawful bent from imposing some reasonable rules and regulations. If you're a mage, it might say so on your identification papers. Magewrights might be required to be members of a trades guild just like stonemasons and bakers were in medieval times. A kingdom might have a Ministry of Magic to maintain a registry of arcane casters, promulgate rules regarding magic, and employ specialists who were capable of bringing magic-wielding law-breakers to justice. (The Harry Potter books have this sort of thing.) The Church of the Silver Flame might have a chapter devoted to hunting down and punishing those who use magic for evil. The 2nd Ed. rules even had a paladin variant called an inquisitor who was devoted to finding and dealing with evil arcane casters. I don't know if 3.5 Ed. rules have anything similar but I think it would make a good prestige class. I think if you tried to impose an outright ban on magic, you'd probably have a lot of disgruntled mages attempting to overthrow the government - "Ye can take my spellbook when ye pry it from my cold, dead fingers! Come and take it, ye muggles!"
turalisj 05-09-06, 11:44 PM	Yeah, nuclear weapons are the greatest threat to the existance of the human race that has ever existed, but we still use nuclear energy. And even if Khovaire somehow managed to outlaw electricity... I mean magic, that wouldn't stop anybody else from using it. The Areneal have been practicing the art of magic for thousands and thousands of years, and there's no way the Deathless would just give it up. Neither would the Serene Barbarians, not to mention the fact that you'd have to outlaw sorcerers, who are born with the ability and will most likely manifest it if they want to or not. But agreed, it would be like asking people today to give up electricity, except for government purposes. No one in their right mind would go along with that. Don't forget the dozens of magical academies who would be pissied if magic was outlawed. And preventing the wanton use of magic? Um, hello, I think that's something the dragons would handle. And yet, that raises another question; Where were the dragons in the Last War? Were they biding thier time, reading the prophecies to see if they should enter the war? If so, then did they also see Vol coming into power and the Mourning?
Lokiyn 05-10-06, 02:34 AM	And yet, that raises another question; Where were the dragons in the Last War? Were they biding thier time, reading the prophecies to see if they should enter the war? If so, then did they also see Vol coming into power and the Mourning? Here is a question to your question, What in the world was going on that was important enough that the dragons were dealing with that rather than check out the imminent decimation of a small country. and your local prophecy shows a light scattering of showers with a 90% chance of DOOM...
Khalek D'Ariana 06-07-06, 06:10 PM	Would be nice if more people responding to the OP with how it could work, rather than naysaying. His/her campaign, remember? I agree that it would be a radical shift away from the essential style of Eberron (and not one I would prefer), but it doesn't mean it couldn't work... As mentioned, once we suspend disbelief at the nations coming together to agree on that, we need a way of enforcing it, a non-national body of police, as it were - something like the UN... with teeth. Magical teeth. Of doom. Yup, I reckon this group would use magic to contain the worst offenders. Even better, have it PC driven once they get to be the higher level players. PCs are employed as agents of a political movement that wants to ban magic, and that movement is gaining support throughout the nations. PCs are used as enforcers against the purportedly criminal magic users, and have pretty much a carte blanche in how they deal with such naughty ones. Of course, the more tyrannical the PCs, the more the various populaces will react against this... I agree that such a ban would be nigh-on impossible to enforce completely, but so what? Don't compare it to electricity, but instead to guns - we ban them (in the hands of 'bad' people) but there's still gun crime. More positive, everyday uses for magic would be limited to current uses (the freeze that OP mentioned) but magical research would be nipped in the bud at source - equipment. Rule that any research takes 3 times as long (since no universities/libraries unless an enforcer/part of underground, and access is gained. Also no alchemical equipment, less access to reagents unless everyday usage is demonstrated and license procured and fewer teachers willing to help out in an open fashion), and has a good chance of being discovered unless precautions are made- I knew those green flashes at midnight would cause problems! That'd allow PCs to choose their side, affect the world, and continue to be in a low magic environment...sounds fairly Ebberonian to me :D
Sarlax 06-07-06, 10:44 PM	Like others, I can't swallow an immediate outright ban on arcane magic. Galifar could have done it, but when you have multiple nations, how do you enforce it? It's like firearms in the realworld: heads of state in Europe occasionally tried to stop using the weapons, but they'd be overwhelmed by those who kept going. However, I can see it happening gradually. Suppose some group that's existed for centuries, maybe the Ashbound, that opposes arcane magic. As the innovations in magic ramp up in the age of Galifar, this group always highlights the negatives, such as unwanted migration with the lightning rail. When the Last War begins, these people have a field day. There are new magic weapons all the time, war machines, and eventually the warforged. If they are successful, people will become distrustful of arcane magic, even though monarchs won't surrender it. After the Mourning and the war's end, there could be a slow-growing anti-magic sentiment. Magic doesn't get banned, but people dislike it. The various taxes wizards need to pay start to rise, polite signs are put up in restaraunts asking that magic items not be brought in, etc. It gets more expensive to go to the Arcane Congress or pay for the Twelve, fewer people attend, etc. Give it a few decades and it might be really uncomfortable to be an arcanist in the Five Nations.
TwoSix26 06-09-06, 09:41 AM	Crazy_DM, Do you want to restrict magic so that your players will use the MoI/ToM classes, or do you want them to play standard spellcasters in a more restricted environment?