Magic items in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Magic items in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mesraic
12-17-07, 05:27 PM So, I apologize if I'm asking a question who's answer is easy to find, but I cann't find it and I've been looking for well over 2 hours now.

Can anyone link a thread about Keith's opinion on new/different magic items in Eberron? How to create new ones, which source books are normally accepted, etc...

Again sorry If I'm wasting forum space but I cannot find those answers.

Thanks
skrap-san
12-17-07, 06:04 PM I'm sorry that i don't know the answer myself, but I don't think asking any question should be considered waste of forum space. The forums are here so that we may help each others. (My post could be considered a waste of space thou)
Gurv
12-17-07, 07:59 PM I don't have a link, but I think I can give Keith's ideas on this without being too off the mark.

Keith would say that anything you personally find enjoyable can have a place in Eberron. What is more important is giving them the right introduction and flavor. You should consider where and when it came from. A magic item from a new sourcebook might be something that House Cannith just invented. Or it might be something ancient, just discovered in the ruins of Xen'drik. Things of an elemental nature would fit well as creations of the elemental binders of Zilargo. Necromancy is found in high concentrations amongst the Blood of Vol, Karrnath, and Aerenal. Powerful magical weapons might have been created just for the Last War. And so on.

Changing the appearance of something can also make it fit Eberron better. A magic rod that looks like a walking cane, or a lens that fits over the eye and hangs from a chain. A flying carpet that -looks- like an air elemental has been bound into it, or a magic sword with symbol of House Deneith on it. The more powerful the item, the rarer and more unique-looking it will be.

So any item, from any book can be put into the setting. That doesn't mean that all items from all books should be assumed to be there. Just what you like, and what makes sense in your game. Give it an Eberron spin, and there you go!
Edymnion
12-18-07, 07:45 PM Yeah, the answer Keith would give is "Anything can be adapted to work", which is true, but is also rather a cop-out. But, he's a representative of WotC (even if it is unofficial), and he's not exactly allowed to say "No, this book is crap, don't use anything in it." So, asking how something can be adapted will get a useful answer out of him. Asking if something should be used in the first place is not going to get a useful answer, since he pretty much has to answer "Yes, you can use that."
ArcTan
12-18-07, 08:21 PM Which is good, because that's a matter of opinion that people shouldn't dictate about for others.

I probably wouldn't have many good ideas for how to use Book of Vile Darkness material in Eberron, because I don't think it's very good, but "Don't use it at all" is always a somewhat useless answer for things like this.

FWIW, I'm a big fan of the Magic Item Compendium, and while there's a lot of non-Eberron flavor it's not so steeped in it that it's not worth converting.

Nothing about Eberron in general makes it a setting where magic items are rarer and harder to get than Greyhawk (the opposite, really, especially for the low-cost magic items of MIC) and having a large and diverse set of magi-tech tools is something that Eberron doesn't have *enough* of, if you ask me.
Edymnion
12-18-07, 09:53 PM Which is good, because that's a matter of opinion that people shouldn't dictate about for others.Actually, IMO, its bad. Someone wants to ask the opinion of the setting creator what they think about using Item X. Setting creator is not allowed to give his opinion, and instead just has to either ignore the question, or give an answer on how it could be used.

When the entire point of the question is "what do you think?", it doesn't help anyone when there is only one answer that can be given. Its like asking a politician for a straight yes or no answer to a charged question and watching them talk for 20 minutes, and not actually answer your question because they're too afraid of alienating potential voters to give you their actual opinion.

Instead, I would recommend people phrase the question differently, in order to give Keith an easier time of it. Don't ask if he thinks something should be used or not, ask "Keith, if I were playing in your Eberron game, would you let me use Item X?"

While he might still have to give the company "don't badmouth anything we make" answer, you're more likely to get the kind of useful answer you were looking for, because you're giving him the out of "I'm not advocating not using this product, I'm just saying that in my personal games I don't use it."
ArcTan
12-20-07, 06:37 PM I don't actually think badmouthing products is that productive a thing to do, whether you work for the company or not. Praising or damning any individual book as a whole is intellectually lazy, encourages the kind of factional bandwagoning behavior you see too much of on these boards, and is of no help at all to people who already own the book, which is usually where "How Do I Use X in Eberron?" questions come from.

Besides, Keith's "It's YOUR campaign!"-centric answers have caused me to have a lot of respect for him, *because* he doesn't emphasize "I don't like X" or "I think Y is stupid" over answers that actually help people do what *they* want to do instead of simply judging them for doing something different from what he wants.

Keith's asked multiple times whether his presence on the boards is constructive or destructive, and I think it's the former mainly because of the attitude he's shown. If it turns out that that's just an attitude he holds because of lawyers breathing over his shoulder (which I don't think it is), and that deep inside he really *wants* to yell at us all about how we're playing Eberron "wrong", I'd lose a lot of respect for him. Communities where the Creator or the Founder hangs out among the fans and feels free to tell them that what they're doing is "right" or "wrong" are dysfunctional (see, for instance, Ron Edwards' choking, paralyzing influence over every game he's written), and if Keith did that his presence here *would* be destructive and it *would* be better for him not to post.
Edymnion
12-20-07, 09:26 PM Besides, Keith's "It's YOUR campaign!"-centric answers have caused me to have a lot of respect for him, *because* he doesn't emphasize "I don't like X" or "I think Y is stupid" over answers that actually help people do what *they* want to do instead of simply judging them for doing something different from what he wants.See, I'm the opposite. I have a lower level of respect for him than I otherwise would precisely because he doesn't speak his mind (which isn't really fair, since he's not allowed to do so, but thats just the way it is). I can't stand people (like politicians) that dance around subjects and never give you a direct answer because they're more worried about who they will upset than they are about the issues at hand.

But again, thats just me. I would love to have a way to talk to Keith off the record where I could actually get his real opinion on things. I'd love to hear him rant at how wrong and stupid someone is, and how ticked off he is about how somebody screwed his setting up. Heck, I'd enjoy him telling me off point by point for how I play. At least then I would be talking to Keith the person, and not Keith the spokesman. As is though, I just don't bother asking his opinion on anything anymore, precisely because I know I won't get an honest answer.

To use a real example off the boards, people often ask "Which Eberron books are the best to get?" or "I only have money for three Eberron books, which ones should I get?". IMO, you can't ask Keith that kind of question and get a response that you could use.
Kreistor2
12-20-07, 10:32 PM But Keith risks losing his contracts if he doesn't toe the line. You might not respect him for it, but that's like not respecting the mold that grows in your grout. It's got no choice but to be there, and Keith has no choice but to do what he has to in order to write more Eberron books.

I, for one, would rather see 10 more books with Keith Baker on the cover than see him answer some dumb question and write nothing about Eberron ever again.
Ashlock
12-20-07, 10:43 PM Even outside of public forums, Keith's not much different. He's genuinely enthusiastic about the setting and wants as many people to enjoy it as possible, and to make it their own. That means changing whatever fitsyou want to, to make the game more fun.

He admits to having his own vision of certain aspects of the world but it's not so different than the canon material. (As I recall, even Ed Greenwood played a very different Realms in his own campaigns.) But of the course Eberron is fleshed out by many different people on the Wizards staff and a number of freelancers (like him).

But I think you're all getting a bit off topic here. :rolleyes:

Magic items, then....
ArcTan
12-21-07, 01:23 AM See, I'm the opposite. I have a lower level of respect for him than I otherwise would precisely because he doesn't speak his mind (which isn't really fair, since he's not allowed to do so, but thats just the way it is). I can't stand people (like politicians) that dance around subjects and never give you a direct answer because they're more worried about who they will upset than they are about the issues at hand.

But I think he *is* speaking his mind. He has, in fact, convinced me that he *really is* a tolerant person who wants everyone to have a good game, instead of a judgmental SOB who enjoys tearing down things other people enjoy. That's why I respect him.

But again, thats just me. I would love to have a way to talk to Keith off the record where I could actually get his real opinion on things. I'd love to hear him rant at how wrong and stupid someone is, and how ticked off he is about how somebody screwed his setting up. Heck, I'd enjoy him telling me off point by point for how I play. At least then I would be talking to Keith the person, and not Keith the spokesman. As is though, I just don't bother asking his opinion on anything anymore, precisely because I know I won't get an honest answer.

You really can't conceive of the idea that someone could create a campaign setting and *not* be an enormous arrogant ass who gets royally ticked off because people have different opinions about it? You really think that The Secret World of Keith Baker is one where he sounds nothing like the genial, helpful, decent guy he presents himself as but instead like, well, you?

Okay. Good to know.
Edymnion
12-21-07, 10:44 PM But Keith risks losing his contracts if he doesn't toe the line.Yeah, like I said, its not fair because he doesn't have a choice in it. But since I can only form an opinion based on what I've seen. Not saying that I don't respect him, I do, only that I would respect him more if I could actually see him stand up for himself and his work a bit more.You really can't conceive of the idea that someone could create a campaign setting and *not* be an enormous arrogant ass who gets royally ticked off because people have different opinions about it?Can you not conceive of the idea that there is a middle ground between letting people walk all over you, and being a raging *******?

Its not being a jerk to have a backbone and tell somebody that they're wrong. Which is what I'm saying, if we could please stop the hyperbole. I'm not saying I want to see Keith run around screaming his head off at everything, that would be a bad thing. I am saying that I would like to see him be allowed to actually say what he thinks and give us an honest opinion, instead of "Say anything that isn't glowing praise about WotC and everything it makes, and we won't hire you anymore".

There is a *VAST* difference between being fine with letting other people make the setting their own and not being allowed to say you don't like how its done. I've got several developed character backgrounds up on the boards, and I'm all for anyone and everyone that wants to using them as NPCs. But you know, if I get a PM saying "Yeah, I took your Paladin character and turned him into a baby eating puppy kicker. What do you think, does that work?", I'm not going to sit here and tell them how to make the character into an even bigger puppy kicker, I'm going to tell them "No, thats not how the character works". If they want to change it, fine, but if they flat out ask me what I think, I'm going to tell them what I think.

Which is what I would like to see Keith be able to do.
Nived
12-22-07, 06:28 AM Hey community leader guy... stop dragging the thread off topic.

To the OP. There's a handy phrase tossed around here, if it is in D&D then it can have a place in Eberron. Sometimes the fluff needs to be rewritten a little (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebee/20051128a) but generally anything can be placed in Eberron. It is one of the strengths of the setting, however that's not to say everything should be thrown into every game.

When adding magic items its important to think about where they came from. The anchient empires of the Dhakaani, the Giants, the Stone Kingdom of the Dwarves all offer possible origins for some of the stranger and more powerful magic items.

If you are talking about character crafting purposes, than a book like the Magic Item Compendium is going to offer an artificer a lot more flexibility and power than the considerable might they already weild, still making magic items is what they do. Something they craft out of the Magic Item Compendium could be the first item of its kind seen on the face of Khorvaire, or it could just be another artificer born thingymagig.

Is there anything you specifically have in mind or was this just a general question?
ArcTan
12-22-07, 07:42 PM Its not being a jerk to have a backbone and tell somebody that they're wrong. Which is what I'm saying, if we could please stop the hyperbole. I'm not saying I want to see Keith run around screaming his head off at everything, that would be a bad thing. I am saying that I would like to see him be allowed to actually say what he thinks and give us an honest opinion, instead of "Say anything that isn't glowing praise about WotC and everything it makes, and we won't hire you anymore".

That's just it. You're painting Keith as a grovelling toady in his public comments on these boards, which I think is utterly unfair. He actually does say things like "I don't see much use for the Book of Vile Darkness, myself" or "Divine Rank isn't a part of my vision for Eberron".

He actually says a lot about what his Eberron is like vs. what other people's Eberron is like. He's been drawn into long back-and-forth discussions on things like this pretty often -- most obviously with aelryinth over things like the so-called "celestial cascade", or in the big conversation about Forge of War.

He just doesn't *phrase* these things as outright abuse or even as outright judgment -- "Book of Vile Darkness is not an Eberron book and you shouldn't use it". Because he *shouldn't*. Whether or not he worked for WotC, he shouldn't say things like that. As he himself says, if people start looking to Keith for "official" answers or answers about what's really good or what's really not, then his influence on these boards becomes injurious and he should stop posting.

Even if Keith published Eberron entirely on his own and this were his website and his message board, I would *hope* he would refuse to say things like "No, no, you're doing it wrong" or "That's not how Eberron is supposed to be at all" or, in fact, most of how you talk about Eberron.

Because that's *bad for the setting*, both as a business and as a creative endeavor.

Like I said, Ron Edwards exerts a stultifying, stifling influence on every game he's created, because even though he's usually civil to people, he's *very* free to say "This kind of power SHOULD NOT EXIST in Sorcerer" or "That kind of thing ruins the thematic unity I was aiming for" -- and so the game and the setting remains chained to the vision of just one guy and never grows beyond that. It becomes his 1998 experiment frozen in amber for eternity, because the force of his personality freezes it that way.

Gary Gygax is a less forceful personality in that wise, but I still maintain that it was a very, very good thing for D&D when people stopped thinking of it as "Gary's game", and I think that it's good for Eberron if people stop thinking of it as "Keith's setting".

There is a *VAST* difference between being fine with letting other people make the setting their own and not being allowed to say you don't like how its done. I've got several developed character backgrounds up on the boards, and I'm all for anyone and everyone that wants to using them as NPCs. But you know, if I get a PM saying "Yeah, I took your Paladin character and turned him into a baby eating puppy kicker. What do you think, does that work?", I'm not going to sit here and tell them how to make the character into an even bigger puppy kicker, I'm going to tell them "No, thats not how the character works". If they want to change it, fine, but if they flat out ask me what I think, I'm going to tell them what I think.

Which is what I would like to see Keith be able to do.

I wouldn't. Because it's not *Keith's* setting. He deserves credit for creating it, but as a concept it belongs to WotC (in terms of intellectual property) and to *all of us* (in terms of culture).

If I actually wrote and published a book and someone wrote fanfiction where my main character does something *I* think is out of character, in my view the best thing I could say is something that *continues the discussion* ("My view of so-and-so is that he'd never do that, because of this and that, but I'd like to hear why you're interested in a version of so-and-so like this.")

When The Creator comes in and says "No, you're wrong", it kills discussion dead and reinforces the idea that if I *want* baby-eating puppy-kickers I should feel bad about myself for "ruining" The Creator's idea. Even if The Creator doesn't intend this, this is the effect it has. And it's a terrible effect.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mesraic 12-17-07, 05:27 PM	So, I apologize if I'm asking a question who's answer is easy to find, but I cann't find it and I've been looking for well over 2 hours now. Can anyone link a thread about Keith's opinion on new/different magic items in Eberron? How to create new ones, which source books are normally accepted, etc... Again sorry If I'm wasting forum space but I cannot find those answers. Thanks
skrap-san 12-17-07, 06:04 PM	I'm sorry that i don't know the answer myself, but I don't think asking any question should be considered waste of forum space. The forums are here so that we may help each others. (My post could be considered a waste of space thou)
Gurv 12-17-07, 07:59 PM	I don't have a link, but I think I can give Keith's ideas on this without being too off the mark. Keith would say that anything you personally find enjoyable can have a place in Eberron. What is more important is giving them the right introduction and flavor. You should consider where and when it came from. A magic item from a new sourcebook might be something that House Cannith just invented. Or it might be something ancient, just discovered in the ruins of Xen'drik. Things of an elemental nature would fit well as creations of the elemental binders of Zilargo. Necromancy is found in high concentrations amongst the Blood of Vol, Karrnath, and Aerenal. Powerful magical weapons might have been created just for the Last War. And so on. Changing the appearance of something can also make it fit Eberron better. A magic rod that looks like a walking cane, or a lens that fits over the eye and hangs from a chain. A flying carpet that -looks- like an air elemental has been bound into it, or a magic sword with symbol of House Deneith on it. The more powerful the item, the rarer and more unique-looking it will be. So any item, from any book can be put into the setting. That doesn't mean that all items from all books should be assumed to be there. Just what you like, and what makes sense in your game. Give it an Eberron spin, and there you go!
Edymnion 12-18-07, 07:45 PM	Yeah, the answer Keith would give is "Anything can be adapted to work", which is true, but is also rather a cop-out. But, he's a representative of WotC (even if it is unofficial), and he's not exactly allowed to say "No, this book is crap, don't use anything in it." So, asking how something can be adapted will get a useful answer out of him. Asking if something should be used in the first place is not going to get a useful answer, since he pretty much has to answer "Yes, you can use that."
ArcTan 12-18-07, 08:21 PM	Which is good, because that's a matter of opinion that people shouldn't dictate about for others. I probably wouldn't have many good ideas for how to use Book of Vile Darkness material in Eberron, because I don't think it's very good, but "Don't use it at all" is always a somewhat useless answer for things like this. FWIW, I'm a big fan of the Magic Item Compendium, and while there's a lot of non-Eberron flavor it's not so steeped in it that it's not worth converting. Nothing about Eberron in general makes it a setting where magic items are rarer and harder to get than Greyhawk (the opposite, really, especially for the low-cost magic items of MIC) and having a large and diverse set of magi-tech tools is something that Eberron doesn't have enough of, if you ask me.
Edymnion 12-18-07, 09:53 PM	Which is good, because that's a matter of opinion that people shouldn't dictate about for others.Actually, IMO, its bad. Someone wants to ask the opinion of the setting creator what they think about using Item X. Setting creator is not allowed to give his opinion, and instead just has to either ignore the question, or give an answer on how it could be used. When the entire point of the question is "what do you think?", it doesn't help anyone when there is only one answer that can be given. Its like asking a politician for a straight yes or no answer to a charged question and watching them talk for 20 minutes, and not actually answer your question because they're too afraid of alienating potential voters to give you their actual opinion. Instead, I would recommend people phrase the question differently, in order to give Keith an easier time of it. Don't ask if he thinks something should be used or not, ask "Keith, if I were playing in your Eberron game, would you let me use Item X?" While he might still have to give the company "don't badmouth anything we make" answer, you're more likely to get the kind of useful answer you were looking for, because you're giving him the out of "I'm not advocating not using this product, I'm just saying that in my personal games I don't use it."
ArcTan 12-20-07, 06:37 PM	I don't actually think badmouthing products is that productive a thing to do, whether you work for the company or not. Praising or damning any individual book as a whole is intellectually lazy, encourages the kind of factional bandwagoning behavior you see too much of on these boards, and is of no help at all to people who already own the book, which is usually where "How Do I Use X in Eberron?" questions come from. Besides, Keith's "It's YOUR campaign!"-centric answers have caused me to have a lot of respect for him, because he doesn't emphasize "I don't like X" or "I think Y is stupid" over answers that actually help people do what they want to do instead of simply judging them for doing something different from what he wants. Keith's asked multiple times whether his presence on the boards is constructive or destructive, and I think it's the former mainly because of the attitude he's shown. If it turns out that that's just an attitude he holds because of lawyers breathing over his shoulder (which I don't think it is), and that deep inside he really wants to yell at us all about how we're playing Eberron "wrong", I'd lose a lot of respect for him. Communities where the Creator or the Founder hangs out among the fans and feels free to tell them that what they're doing is "right" or "wrong" are dysfunctional (see, for instance, Ron Edwards' choking, paralyzing influence over every game he's written), and if Keith did that his presence here would be destructive and it would be better for him not to post.
Edymnion 12-20-07, 09:26 PM	Besides, Keith's "It's YOUR campaign!"-centric answers have caused me to have a lot of respect for him, because he doesn't emphasize "I don't like X" or "I think Y is stupid" over answers that actually help people do what they want to do instead of simply judging them for doing something different from what he wants.See, I'm the opposite. I have a lower level of respect for him than I otherwise would precisely because he doesn't speak his mind (which isn't really fair, since he's not allowed to do so, but thats just the way it is). I can't stand people (like politicians) that dance around subjects and never give you a direct answer because they're more worried about who they will upset than they are about the issues at hand. But again, thats just me. I would love to have a way to talk to Keith off the record where I could actually get his real opinion on things. I'd love to hear him rant at how wrong and stupid someone is, and how ticked off he is about how somebody screwed his setting up. Heck, I'd enjoy him telling me off point by point for how I play. At least then I would be talking to Keith the person, and not Keith the spokesman. As is though, I just don't bother asking his opinion on anything anymore, precisely because I know I won't get an honest answer. To use a real example off the boards, people often ask "Which Eberron books are the best to get?" or "I only have money for three Eberron books, which ones should I get?". IMO, you can't ask Keith that kind of question and get a response that you could use.
Kreistor2 12-20-07, 10:32 PM	But Keith risks losing his contracts if he doesn't toe the line. You might not respect him for it, but that's like not respecting the mold that grows in your grout. It's got no choice but to be there, and Keith has no choice but to do what he has to in order to write more Eberron books. I, for one, would rather see 10 more books with Keith Baker on the cover than see him answer some dumb question and write nothing about Eberron ever again.
Ashlock 12-20-07, 10:43 PM	Even outside of public forums, Keith's not much different. He's genuinely enthusiastic about the setting and wants as many people to enjoy it as possible, and to make it their own. That means changing whatever fitsyou want to, to make the game more fun. He admits to having his own vision of certain aspects of the world but it's not so different than the canon material. (As I recall, even Ed Greenwood played a very different Realms in his own campaigns.) But of the course Eberron is fleshed out by many different people on the Wizards staff and a number of freelancers (like him). But I think you're all getting a bit off topic here. :rolleyes: Magic items, then....
ArcTan 12-21-07, 01:23 AM	See, I'm the opposite. I have a lower level of respect for him than I otherwise would precisely because he doesn't speak his mind (which isn't really fair, since he's not allowed to do so, but thats just the way it is). I can't stand people (like politicians) that dance around subjects and never give you a direct answer because they're more worried about who they will upset than they are about the issues at hand. But I think he is speaking his mind. He has, in fact, convinced me that he really is a tolerant person who wants everyone to have a good game, instead of a judgmental SOB who enjoys tearing down things other people enjoy. That's why I respect him. But again, thats just me. I would love to have a way to talk to Keith off the record where I could actually get his real opinion on things. I'd love to hear him rant at how wrong and stupid someone is, and how ticked off he is about how somebody screwed his setting up. Heck, I'd enjoy him telling me off point by point for how I play. At least then I would be talking to Keith the person, and not Keith the spokesman. As is though, I just don't bother asking his opinion on anything anymore, precisely because I know I won't get an honest answer. You really can't conceive of the idea that someone could create a campaign setting and not be an enormous arrogant ass who gets royally ticked off because people have different opinions about it? You really think that The Secret World of Keith Baker is one where he sounds nothing like the genial, helpful, decent guy he presents himself as but instead like, well, you? Okay. Good to know.
Edymnion 12-21-07, 10:44 PM	But Keith risks losing his contracts if he doesn't toe the line.Yeah, like I said, its not fair because he doesn't have a choice in it. But since I can only form an opinion based on what I've seen. Not saying that I don't respect him, I do, only that I would respect him more if I could actually see him stand up for himself and his work a bit more.You really can't conceive of the idea that someone could create a campaign setting and not be an enormous arrogant ass who gets royally ticked off because people have different opinions about it?Can you not conceive of the idea that there is a middle ground between letting people walk all over you, and being a raging ******? Its not being a jerk to have a backbone and tell somebody that they're wrong. Which is what I'm saying, if we could please stop the hyperbole. I'm not saying I want to see Keith run around screaming his head off at everything, that would be a bad thing. I am saying that I would like to see him be allowed to actually say what he thinks and give us an honest opinion, instead of "Say anything that isn't glowing praise about WotC and everything it makes, and we won't hire you anymore". There is a VAST* difference between being fine with letting other people make the setting their own and not being allowed to say you don't like how its done. I've got several developed character backgrounds up on the boards, and I'm all for anyone and everyone that wants to using them as NPCs. But you know, if I get a PM saying "Yeah, I took your Paladin character and turned him into a baby eating puppy kicker. What do you think, does that work?", I'm not going to sit here and tell them how to make the character into an even bigger puppy kicker, I'm going to tell them "No, thats not how the character works". If they want to change it, fine, but if they flat out ask me what I think, I'm going to tell them what I think. Which is what I would like to see Keith be able to do.
Nived 12-22-07, 06:28 AM	Hey community leader guy... stop dragging the thread off topic. To the OP. There's a handy phrase tossed around here, if it is in D&D then it can have a place in Eberron. Sometimes the fluff needs to be rewritten a little (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebee/20051128a) but generally anything can be placed in Eberron. It is one of the strengths of the setting, however that's not to say everything should be thrown into every game. When adding magic items its important to think about where they came from. The anchient empires of the Dhakaani, the Giants, the Stone Kingdom of the Dwarves all offer possible origins for some of the stranger and more powerful magic items. If you are talking about character crafting purposes, than a book like the Magic Item Compendium is going to offer an artificer a lot more flexibility and power than the considerable might they already weild, still making magic items is what they do. Something they craft out of the Magic Item Compendium could be the first item of its kind seen on the face of Khorvaire, or it could just be another artificer born thingymagig. Is there anything you specifically have in mind or was this just a general question?
ArcTan 12-22-07, 07:42 PM	Its not being a jerk to have a backbone and tell somebody that they're wrong. Which is what I'm saying, if we could please stop the hyperbole. I'm not saying I want to see Keith run around screaming his head off at everything, that would be a bad thing. I am saying that I would like to see him be allowed to actually say what he thinks and give us an honest opinion, instead of "Say anything that isn't glowing praise about WotC and everything it makes, and we won't hire you anymore". That's just it. You're painting Keith as a grovelling toady in his public comments on these boards, which I think is utterly unfair. He actually does say things like "I don't see much use for the Book of Vile Darkness, myself" or "Divine Rank isn't a part of my vision for Eberron". He actually says a lot about what his Eberron is like vs. what other people's Eberron is like. He's been drawn into long back-and-forth discussions on things like this pretty often -- most obviously with aelryinth over things like the so-called "celestial cascade", or in the big conversation about Forge of War. He just doesn't phrase these things as outright abuse or even as outright judgment -- "Book of Vile Darkness is not an Eberron book and you shouldn't use it". Because he shouldn't. Whether or not he worked for WotC, he shouldn't say things like that. As he himself says, if people start looking to Keith for "official" answers or answers about what's really good or what's really not, then his influence on these boards becomes injurious and he should stop posting. Even if Keith published Eberron entirely on his own and this were his website and his message board, I would hope he would refuse to say things like "No, no, you're doing it wrong" or "That's not how Eberron is supposed to be at all" or, in fact, most of how you talk about Eberron. Because that's bad for the setting, both as a business and as a creative endeavor. Like I said, Ron Edwards exerts a stultifying, stifling influence on every game he's created, because even though he's usually civil to people, he's very free to say "This kind of power SHOULD NOT EXIST in Sorcerer" or "That kind of thing ruins the thematic unity I was aiming for" -- and so the game and the setting remains chained to the vision of just one guy and never grows beyond that. It becomes his 1998 experiment frozen in amber for eternity, because the force of his personality freezes it that way. Gary Gygax is a less forceful personality in that wise, but I still maintain that it was a very, very good thing for D&D when people stopped thinking of it as "Gary's game", and I think that it's good for Eberron if people stop thinking of it as "Keith's setting". There is a VAST difference between being fine with letting other people make the setting their own and not being allowed to say you don't like how its done. I've got several developed character backgrounds up on the boards, and I'm all for anyone and everyone that wants to using them as NPCs. But you know, if I get a PM saying "Yeah, I took your Paladin character and turned him into a baby eating puppy kicker. What do you think, does that work?", I'm not going to sit here and tell them how to make the character into an even bigger puppy kicker, I'm going to tell them "No, thats not how the character works". If they want to change it, fine, but if they flat out ask me what I think, I'm going to tell them what I think. Which is what I would like to see Keith be able to do. I wouldn't. Because it's not Keith's setting. He deserves credit for creating it, but as a concept it belongs to WotC (in terms of intellectual property) and to all of us (in terms of culture). If I actually wrote and published a book and someone wrote fanfiction where my main character does something I think is out of character, in my view the best thing I could say is something that continues the discussion ("My view of so-and-so is that he'd never do that, because of this and that, but I'd like to hear why you're interested in a version of so-and-so like this.") When The Creator comes in and says "No, you're wrong", it kills discussion dead and reinforces the idea that if I want baby-eating puppy-kickers I should feel bad about myself for "ruining" The Creator's idea. Even if The Creator doesn't intend this, this is the effect it has. And it's a terrible effect.