Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Atlictoatl 10-15-05, 09:34 AM	IMO, Magic of Faerun is a seminal sourcebook that should be purchased at the same time as the FRCS; it's that important to DM and player alike for the setting. Magic of Eberron has been my most anticipated book this season, but sadly I'm returning it as a huge disappointment, even though the store I got it from owes me money and is, essentially, giving it to me for free; it's that non-useful for this devout afficionado of Eberron. The section on Artifice is an insult. It's now canon that Merrix d'Cannith's secret creation forge is the worst-kept secret in Khorvaire ("No artificer in the country of Breland receives training without hearing a few rumors about the secret creation forge..." p.1, Chapter 1), and the big adventure idea for this section is that the PCs are hired by a rival of Merrix to penetrate his laboratory. The section on Elemental Binding includes an absurdist creation story in which the gnomes purport to have had the secrets of elemental magic for over a millenium, when in reality they acquired it a little over 200 years ago from Xen'drik drow. They've managed to keep this fallacy a secret, and are apparently much better at such than Merrix d'Cannith, who is "a generation ahead" of every other artificer on the continent. We get another three pages of overly detailed material on how Elemental Binding occurs, but no discussion of its impact on the gameworld or storylines. The Dragonshards section is of some interest, but isn't anything that couldn't be extrapolated from the ECSB, and it repeats themes and ideas on Khyber shards that were first presented in the Explorer's Handbook. Not really worth the effort to read. The Draconic Prophecy section was apparently added to pad out the word count. It adds nothing to the setting. There is some material later in the book that discusses Dragon Totem Rituals. I was browsing by this point, and after reading that only Dragon Totem Lorekeepers can conduct a ritual, I moved on. Argonnessen isn't a feature of my campaign. The section on Daelkyr Magic is nothing a reader of Lords of Madness or the Book of Vile Darkness doesn't already know, and isn't much of an addition to what was already given us in the ECSB. Dragon Totem Rituals reiterates what we already know about Argonnessen. The Psionics section only introduces the Psiforged, who were born from out of the Mournland and have been manufactured in totality by Merrix's "secret" forge. One third of the article is wasted on uninteresting journal entries of someone searching for the Psicraft progenitors, instead of something useful, such as a conversation on how the presence of a new breed of Warforged after the Creation Forges were shut down affects people's conception of the manufactured race. The Magic of Aerenal states, in about a page, that the elves of Aerenal have used magic for a very, very long time, and that their magical knowledge comes from the giants. The Magic of Karrnath section tells us that many Karnnaths are necromancers, although there are some Karrnaths that don't like the undead. It's a reiteration of Five Nations, which told us the same thing even though it was already clearly articulated in the ECSB. New revelations? Not so much. Eberron Organizations discusses the Finder's Guild, and the Power of Purity, a gnomish organization. That's it. Nothing on the Twelve, the Arcane Congress, other mage guilds, or other magic-focused organizations in a world in which "the fabric of the Five Nations is built upon magic". Easy enough to say, I suppose, but the book doesn't do a thing to support the statement. There are nice munchinky races, feats, and PrCs, though. You can play a half-daelkyr now, or take a PrC that allows you to grow Daelkyr-inspired appendages whilst fighting aberrations. Or take on undead traits as a special kind of Karrnathi while, you guessed it, fighting undead. Artificers get two PrCs, there's a Zilargo elemental binding PrC, a Quori Mindhunter (because the Quori are so easy to master, apparently), a Dragon Prophet for all of those based in Argonnessen, and an Aerenal PrC for all of those PCs who are Aerenal elves. That's pretty much it. The Spells and Powers section is the smallest in the book, weighing in at 16 pages. It's pretty weak, too. The Magic Items section is predominantly Grafts, in case you didn't get enough of this from Lords of Madness, Libris Mortis, or Book of Vile Darkness. The Creatures section is 15 pages, dealing primarily with Daelkyr- and Quori- based opponents. I briefly considered keeping the book for the two Quori it presents, but ultimately am going to pass. There are three additional homunculi, and seven Symbionts. I'm not using this book in any capacity in any of my campaigns, as a DM or as a player. IMO, it distorts Eberron in a way I am wholly disinterested in. Sorry to present such a gloomy report. I hope you get more from it, but strongly advise you shop discriminately, not blindly, on this one.
The White Sorcerer 10-15-05, 09:58 AM	("No artificer in the country of Breland receives training without hearing a few rumors about the secret creation forge..." p.1, Chapter 1) Emphasis mine. The section on Elemental Binding includes an absurdist creation story in which the gnomes purport to have had the secrets of elemental magic for over a millenium, when in reality they acquired it a little over 200 years ago from Xen'drik drow. They've managed to keep this fallacy a secret, and are apparently much better at such than Merrix d'Cannith, who is "a generation ahead" of every other artificer on the continent. What's absurd about this? And why shouldn't they be better at elemental binding than Merrix? Merrix doesn't know how to bind elementals at all, I bet. Elemental binding is a gnome thing. The section on Daelkyr Magic is nothing a reader of Lords of Madness or the Book of Vile Darkness doesn't already know, and isn't much of an addition to what was already given us in the ECSB. Both books are non-core and non-Eberron books. Dragon Totem Rituals reiterates what we already know about Argonnessen. Okay. I'll have to get my hands on the book before I can comment on this.
polt 10-15-05, 10:03 AM	The section on Artifice is an insult. It's now canon that Merrix d'Cannith's secret creation forge is the worst-kept secret in Khorvaire ("No artificer in the country of Breland receives training without hearing a few rumors about the secret creation forge..." p.1, Chapter 1). Well, the artificer is a core class, which means they are somewhat rare. 95% of the people in Khovaire are NPC classes. So it's a pretty darn well kept secret still. And rumors is one thing, it doesn't say they know it. Do you think that's the ONLY rumor? There are probably hundreds, and who can tell what's the truth and what is false? The section on Elemental Binding includes an absurdist creation story in which the gnomes purport to have had the secrets of elemental magic for over a millenium, when in reality they acquired it a little over 200 years ago from Xen'drik drow. They've managed to keep this fallacy a secret, and are apparently much better at such than Merrix d'Cannith, who is "a generation ahead" of every other artificer on the continent. We get another three pages of overly detailed material on how Elemental Binding occurs, but no discussion of its impact on the gameworld or storylines. Okay. You mention too stories? Are they both written down in the MoE? Cause that's kinda weird. Merrix d'Cannith probably is one of the best aritificers on Khovaire, but he haven't mastered Elemental Binding, but he's the best at many other areas. He can't be master of all. No discussion of how it impact the gameworld? How about Airships. How about Elemental powered vehicles? How about elementals bind into weapons, armours and other items? It's been pretty well covered. The Dragonshards section is of some interest, but isn't anything that couldn't be extrapolated from the ECSB, and it repeats themes and ideas on Khyber shards that were first presented in the Explorer's Handbook. Not really worth the effort to read. Mjah. There's a lot of info on pricing, value and rarity. The section on Daelkyr Magic is nothing a reader of Lords of Madness or the Book of Vile Darkness doesn't already know, and isn't much of an addition to what was already given us in the ECSB. Well, I have neither of those books. So COOL! Dragon Totem Rituals reiterates what we already know about Argonnessen. You mean it says "Argonessen is the secret continent of the Dragons" and nothing more? instead of something useful, such as a conversation on how the presence of a new breed of Warforged after the Creation Forges were shut down affects people's conception of the manufactured race. Well, since Warforged are VERY rare, and nobody knows what psionics are, I doubt it has any effect on people's conception of Warforged. Nothing on the Twelve, the Arcane Congress, other mage guilds, or other magic-focused organizations in a world in which "the fabric of the Five Nations is built upon magic". Easy enough to say, I suppose, but the book doesn't do a thing to support the statement. Have you read the ECS? Because there's lots in there that shows why the Five Nations is built through magic. a Dragon Prophet for all of those based in Argonnessen, and an Aerenal PrC for all of those PCs who are Aerenal elves. That's pretty much it. That's pretty cool. The Magic Items section is predominantly Grafts, in case you didn't get enough of this from Lords of Madness, Libris Mortis, or Book of Vile Darkness. I don't have those books, so cool.
Atlictoatl 10-15-05, 11:31 AM	Folks are free to disagree with me. I'm saying, essentially, that Magic of Eberron is no Magic of Faerun, and that's a disappointment for me. It may not be for any of you. I will clarify, however: What's absurd about this? And why shouldn't they be better at elemental binding than Merrix? Merrix doesn't know how to bind elementals at all, I bet. Elemental binding is a gnome thing. I phrased that poorly. I didn't mean to say that the gnomes shouldn't be better than Merrix at elemental binding. Or even that gnomes shouldn't be better at hiding secrets than Merrix. What I am saying is that, on essentially page 1 of the book, the author rather broadly refutes the fact that Merrix's creation forge is a secret. It not being a secret has big ramifications -- the use of a creation forge is outlawed by the Treaty of Thronehold. Merrix's use of one makes him (and by extension, King Boranel), a potential war criminal. Merrix's "secret" is rumored about by 120-190 artificers in Sharn alone (according to Dragonshard -- Demographics), and he's been cranking out a type of warforged never before seen on Khorvaire. This is not, as the ECSB suggests, being "circumspect" or "sparing". If Merrix is as ahead of his time as the author of MoE suggests, then why is his great secret that is a few years old more widely known than the over two-hundred year secret of the gnomes, despite all of the vast exposure elemental binding has received in that two hundred years? Weak writing without regard to canon, that's how. And, while Argonnessen, Daelkyr, and Aerenal magic are interesting, they are relatively tangential to most Eberron campaigns. Worthy of mention, sure, but to the exclusion of any material that is more pertinent to most campaigns? Cool book? I suppose. Essential book? Definitely not. Even at its most fundamental, there are 32 spells in MoE. Detect Dragonmark, Supress Dragonmark, Watchful Ancestors, Glimpse of Eternity, and Glimpse of the Prophecy are Eberron-specific. The other twenty-seven could be in any supplement for any gameworld. There are sixteen new artificer infusions, which is obviously a boon to artificers, but not enough reason to buy the book for me. I'd rather have a broad selection of spells that elucidate the originality of magic on Eberron, PrCs that DMs and players can use without being extraordinarily abnormal, and discussions about the more common elements of the world (Arcane Congress, the Twelve, various other arcane and divine organizations). That's me, and for those like me, I suggest you check out the book first and leave the impulsive purchase for those who don't own Lords of Madness, Book of Vile Darkness, et al. Have you read the ECS? Because there's lots in there that shows why the Five Nations is built through magic And this is Magic of Eberron. I shouldn't have to refer to the ECSB to find examples of how Khorvaire is built on magic; that's the reason for buying this book, after all.
Kanatash 10-15-05, 11:54 AM	Overall, I like the book. It has a lot of little interesting things to put in your game. The only real problem i had was the contradictory story about Aeren. If you read the Aerenal dragonshard, Aeren was a female visionary who led the elves to their island home, then died. In MoE, Aeren is a male and magicaly attacked the giants and led the elves to Arenenal, then became the first of the undying. It's unfortunate when authors don't take all of the Eberron material into account.
Atlictoatl 10-15-05, 12:13 PM	Overall, I like the book. It has a lot of little interesting things to put in your game. The only real problem i had was the contradictory story about Aeren. If you read the Aerenal dragonshard, Aeren was a female visionary who led the elves to their island home, then died. In MoE, Aeren is a male and magicaly attacked the giants and led the elves to Arenenal, then became the first of the undying. It's unfortunate when authors don't take all of the Eberron material into account. Check out the other MoE thread, Kanatash. There's a quote from Keith on the issue that is worth reading. I'd be interested in hearing more about some of the bits you're into, Kanatash. I'd secretly like to be sold on the book.
darkness ninja of light 10-15-05, 12:35 PM	If Merrix is as ahead of his time as the author of MoE suggests, then why is his great secret that is a few years old more widely known than the over two-hundred year secret of the gnomes, despite all of the vast exposure elemental binding has received in that two hundred years? Weak writing without regard to canon, that's how. I think The Trust can keep a secret a lot better than Merrix d'Cannith can. Apparantly they decided 200 years ago to start bringing elemental binding out into the rest of the world. Other than that, if The Trust doesn't want it exposed, they aren't going to get it exposed. That's sounds pretty cannon to me.
Singing Smurf 10-15-05, 01:04 PM	(original post <snip>ed for clarity) We get another three pages of overly detailed material on how Elemental Binding occurs, but no discussion of its impact on the gameworld or storylines. As others have noted, the magic section of the ECS discusses this in spades. Lightning rail? Stormships? Everbright lanterns on every street corner in Sharn? The Draconic Prophecy section was apparently added to pad out the word count. It adds nothing to the setting. I'm sincerely puzzled by this comment. The Prophecy is intimately intertwined with Dragonmarks, which are one of the most unique and important elements of the setting. I was browsing by this point... That's a shame, because the best stuff was yet to come, IMO. The Psionics section only introduces the Psiforged... ...and 4 new feats, around 6 new powers, 8 new items, and a prestige class. Did we buy the same book? a Dragon Prophet for all of those based in Argonnessen... The PrC specifically discusses how the Dragon Prophet would maintain contact with thier patron while they are spending their time adventuring in KHORVAIRE. The Spells and Powers section is the smallest in the book, weighing in at 16 pages. It's pretty weak, too. I think it roxxors on toast, but this is a matter of taste, so I'll let it be. The Magic Items section is predominantly Grafts, in case you didn't get enough of this from Lords of Madness, Libris Mortis, or Book of Vile Darkness. I don't have the book with me at work, so I can't comment on the number of grafts vs other items. I'd like to point out, however, that the rules for grafts in Eberron are largely new. Sorry to present such a gloomy report. I hope you get more from it, but strongly advise you shop discriminately, not blindly, on this one. YMMV. I did indeed get more from it, and I'm looking forward to using it in my game tomorrow. I hope you check it out in the store again sometime.
DanjaNinja 10-15-05, 03:17 PM	...I'm returning it...[I got it] for free... If you're going to return it anyway, why not just mail it to me? (Seriously, I'll even pay for shipping)
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 10-15-05, 05:25 PM	What about the blood magus base class? Wasn't that supposed to be in MoE? I'm starting to get nervous about it, actually... The guys over at Future Releases are saying it's mysteriously absent, and one would think that it would be in there since WotC said it would be as recently as earlier this month (and they have these books settled content-wise easilly two months in advance).
PoeticJustice 10-15-05, 05:43 PM	There is NO base class in the book. No Blood Magus. Gosh, it feels weird to be on the other side of the sourcebook rant. Normally I'm the doom and gloom one. 5 Nations: Hated (AND HATE STILL) that stupid halfling in Fairhaven that resurrects on demand. Explorer's Handbook: Binding fell apart. that made me soooooo mad. Magic of Eberron: I think the book is fine and I don't mind changing the parts I don't like for what I do. Take the Undying grafts. They're not ripped from the hide of some councilor or soldier. Gods no; they're created by a piecemeal transition process, one that transforms portions of the recipient rather than replaces those portions. I already know about the twelve. I read the entry in the back of the ECS, and the part about the acquisitions directorate in Explorer's handbook kicked ass! Arcanix, and by association the Arcane Congress, got 4 pages of 5 Nations. That's more than Aerenal or the Daelkyr got in this book. You know, Grafts may be old hat to some, but I think Eberron puts a new spin on them. There aren't any undead or fiendish grafts, and in a war-torn society, making a weapon that can't be stolen, copied, and exploited seems reasonable to me. They're expensive, but many are no more than a +2 Weapon, and they seem a hell of a lot cooler. I wouldn't mess with a dwarf who had roots for legs and set things on fire by looking at them.
stembolt 10-16-05, 03:26 AM	IMO, Magic of Faerun is a seminal sourcebook that should be purchased at the same time as the FRCS; it's that important to DM and player alike for the setting. Magic of Eberron has been my most anticipated book this season, but sadly I'm returning it as a huge disappointment, even though the store I got it from owes me money and is, essentially, giving it to me for free; it's that non-useful for this devout afficionado of Eberron. You know that scene in Jerry Maguire where Tom tells Rene that he loves her and she says “you had me at hello.” This was just like that. When you said “IMO, Magic of Faerun is a seminal sourcebook…” and didn’t follow with some thing like “…of lousy sourcebooks” we had full grasp of just how poor your opinion is.
Splendide 10-16-05, 04:07 AM	Most of it sounds like a bunch of wizz bang rubbish. The quality of the gnomish bits will dictate my purchase, I think. I'd love to know what happened to the part where things in Eberron, like the existence of the Lord of Blades, were being left mysterious. Now we're introducing Psiforged??? Give me a break. LoB and the various godworks of House Cannith are really getting beyond a joke now. It would be nice for sourcebooks to focus on other stuff now. Please! I liked Eberron initially because, while all this weird stuff was in it, it was understated and essentially low-key. Get back to that! Less pulp, more noir! Less bubblegum, more grit!
Lurkalot 10-16-05, 04:40 AM	LoB and the various godworks of House Cannith are really getting beyond a joke now. It would be nice for sourcebooks to focus on other stuff now. Please! I liked Eberron initially because, while all this weird stuff was in it, it was understated and essentially low-key. Get back to that! Seconded! Eberron is superb as it is, so how can they keep pumping out sourcebooks without spoiling it? One of the things that makes Eberron great is the fresh space it provides. It cleans away all the accumulated clutter of high-level NPCs, 1001 sub-races and same-old fantasy staples. What's left is room for story. Incredibly, Keith Baker managed to create a setting where you could have countless different races and monster species without it being absurd. Hundreds of weird monsters straining any pretense of ecological sanity? No problem - there are these things called Daelkyr which create them for fun. I don't need a big breeding population of Ropers across the 'underdark' They're just a side project of one Daelkyr under Droaam. And the goblinoids are rolled into an ancient nation all together. Now my fantasy land doesn't have to balance senseless tribes of different races scattered all over the place. Everything was cleaned up and organized. Now I'm worried that the source books are going to clutter everything up again. The lack of sub-races is the best example. Sub-races always undermined role-playing by turning every species into a stereotype. You want to be a nature loving elf? Oh, you're a Wood Elf. You want to be a sneaky gnome? Oh, you're a Shadow Gnome. Of course, WotC have to keep churning source books, because that's their business. But if they just fall back to the old prestige class and sub-races route, Eberron will lose that. Maybe Eberron is time to shift emphasis a little more towards characters and story in the supplements. I'd love to see source books with more detailed locations for example. The bits I bought the Sharn book for were the city descriptions, not the Sky Mages or Roach monsters. Keith has shown just how much can be done with vanilla races and characters and that's Eberron's best quality for me. Elf mercenaries? Barring a slight weapons variation, they're nothing but background fluff. No prestige class (yet), no alignment change or switching of favoured class, but how much do the Valenar add to a game? A huge amount. Hmmm. I seem to have started ranting. But I think Eberron is great partly because of the []ilack[/i] of species, class and monster clutter. I'd hate to see that undone over the next couple of years. We should see more character and location based info in the supplements. Errm... IMHO.
Splendide 10-16-05, 09:37 AM	I've thought about it some more, and I think what is missing is the normality of the setting. Yep, goblins in the cogs. So what? Thats what goblins do here. Oh yeah, there's all sorts of nasty stuff below that, but it doesn't get out, so its not a problem. Say, did you see the Inquisitive this morning? Looks like its time to stock up on salted pork!
(Psi)SeveredHead 10-16-05, 12:31 PM	The Spells and Powers section is the smallest in the book, weighing in at 16 pages. It's pretty weak, too. Well, that killed the sale. I might have bought the book if it wasn't for that bad news.
Von Ether 10-16-05, 12:32 PM	The Magic Items section is predominantly Grafts, in case you didn't get enough of this from Lords of Madness, Libris Mortis, or Book of Vile Darkness. . Where was grafts in Lords of Madness?
Hellcow 10-16-05, 01:09 PM	One thing I will say on a closer reading: MoE introduces a variety of new alchemical items, and specifically attributes the alchemical weapons to House Cannith. While House Cannith does have an interest in alchemy, from day one we've said that the Zil have a strong alchemical tradition (page 212 ECS, Alchemical goods are listed as one of Zilargo's primary exports). Cannith is better with raw magic, but the gnomes are supposed to be innovators in alchemy and elemental binding; I'd say that Cannith's alchemists are largely knocking off gnome techniques. Why are Cannith's greatest artificers in the south? Because Breland is next to Zilargo, and Zilargo is the birthplace of alchemy in Khorvaire. A greater question, then, is that if this is the case, why can't gnomes be alchemical savants? After all, the Mark of Making isn't required - just favored in House. One option is to say that they can be, and to substitute a different feat as a prereq (a Zil gnome can take the PrC, but must have Skill Focus - Craft: alchemy). However, one can just as easily say that mark or no, the abilities of the Alchemical Savant are linked to the Cannith bloodline, and cannot be duplicated by anyone else. In fact, I personally love idea that the abilities of the class are literally linked to the savant's blood - that he has to add a drop of his own blood to any universal potion, spellvial, or even to the potions he makes so quickly with Efficient Alchemy (again, explaining why no one else can learn to be so efficient). it is alchemy, after all - I think it's fine to say that the Blood of Making has a powerful effect in alchemy. Of course, if this is true, what could you do with the blood of the other dragonmarks...?
MysticTheurge 10-16-05, 02:12 PM	Where was grafts in Lords of Madness? p. 215 (Plus of course the Fleshwarper on p. 189)
Azazyll 10-16-05, 03:22 PM	Where was grafts in Lords of Madness? I think the better question would be "Where were they in Book of Vile Darkness," since they didn't show up until Fiend Folio. While I myself am not crazy about the daelkyr, I think it was a neat area to explore. I'm looking forward to the new graft rules, since I think the requirement "Heal 10 ranks" is ridiculous, considering heal isn't a class skill for wizards. I'm glad to hear about the deathless grafts, that sounded a bit weird to me. I'm terribly excited about the book, since Keith OKed it, and basically, I buy everything WotC puts out, other than adventures (and MoI). I was rather dissapointed with the stuff keith hasn't worked on, explorer's handbook and particularly five nations (which looked like two or three people wrote seperate books without talking to each other and then smushed it together with no thought as to what requirements or format they should approach the different sections with, other than "put in a prestige class and some important people"). Sharn was so much better, and remains the best supplement. Unfortunately, they haven't shipped MoE to Virginia yet, it seems. Hopefully WotC will take the hint and keep Keith on for more products of a setting that it's quite obvoius that only he handles with the proper finesse. It's fine to let other people in on FR now, it's been out for decades, and Greenwood laid the groundwork. Let Keith do the same.
Brastan 10-16-05, 03:37 PM	The Grafts in MoE are different from those in the Fiend Folio. Even the prerequisites for the feats are different. Druids and rangers from the Eldeen Reaches might be willing to use some of the grafts. They are not necessarily evil or horrid in nature.
AskaniPsion 10-16-05, 04:26 PM	So is the Elemental Scion a gnomish prestige class that grafts elementals?
Brastan 10-16-05, 06:34 PM	Essentially yes, although you do get some additional abilities that relate to one element of your choice. You do have to 'buy in' (my words) with at least one elemental graft.
Splendide 10-16-05, 07:13 PM	A greater question, then, is that if this is the case, why can't gnomes be alchemical savants?...because very few game designers, besides yourself, think that giving cool things to gnomes is worthwhile?
Brastan 10-16-05, 07:50 PM	...because very few game designers, besides yourself, think that giving cool things to gnomes is worthwhile? Actually in the Adaptation section of the PrC it suggest that you can replace Favored in House with Skill Focus(Craft[alchemy]) as requirement if you want non-Dragon marked Savants in the game. This seems fairly official to me.
Majorafire77 10-16-05, 08:05 PM	Merrix's "secret" is rumored about by 120-190 artificers in Sharn alone (according to Dragonshard -- Demographics), and he's been cranking out a type of warforged never before seen on Khorvaire. This is not, as the ECSB suggests, being "circumspect" or "sparing". If Merrix is as ahead of his time as the author of MoE suggests, then why is his great secret that is a few years old more widely known than the over two-hundred year secret of the gnomes, despite all of the vast exposure elemental binding has received in that two hundred years? And how many of the artificers who have heard rumors in Sharn aren't completely devoted to Merrix and trust him? Noone's interrogating Merrix anytime soon imo. Why is his great secret more widely known? First of all, it isn't, they're rumors. Secondly, doesn't something in S:CoT or the ECS say that he lets new ones out on the street from time to time? Yeah, his secret is more widely known because the fact that there are new models of warforged walking the streets of Sharn that noone's ever seen before that time might give someone a reason to believe that someone's making warforged illegaly. Cool book? I suppose. Essential book? Definitely not. Even at its most fundamental, there are 32 spells in MoE. Detect Dragonmark, Supress Dragonmark, Watchful Ancestors, Glimpse of Eternity, and Glimpse of the Prophecy are Eberron-specific. The other twenty-seven could be in any supplement for any gameworld. Can you remind me how many spells in MoF there were that were FR-specific (since you compare MoE to it a lot)? I could've sworn I saw a good number of *originally printed in MoF* spells in Ghostwalk and other sources. And this is Magic of Eberron. I shouldn't have to refer to the ECSB to find examples of how Khorvaire is built on magic; that's the reason for buying this book, after all. Hold up. You complain about how this book says stuff that was in books such as LoM and BoVD but then you say that you want the information from the ECS reprinted in MoE? Make up your mind!
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 10-16-05, 11:19 PM	There is NO base class in the book. No Blood Magus. Well I must say I do feel more than a little lied to. That alone is enough to reduce the odds of buying MoE to about slim to none... And slim isn't talking to me anymore.
PoeticJustice 10-16-05, 11:28 PM	Well I must say I do feel more than a little lied to. That alone is enough to reduce the odds of buying MoE to about slim to none... And slim isn't talking to me anymore. If this is the case, I recommend at least looking at Heroes of Horror. Besides solid writing, the supplement features two (count 'em) two base classes, both of which are pretty good. The Dread Necromancer might be the creepy mage your looking for.
Atlictoatl 10-16-05, 11:29 PM	Thank you, Azazyll, for pointing out my error. He's absolutely correct. Fiend Folio, not BoVD. Hold up. You complain about how this book says stuff that was in books such as LoM and BoVD but then you say that you want the information from the ECS reprinted in MoE? Make up your mind! An early premise of the MoE text is the statement "the fabric of the Five Nations is built upon magic". While it is true that the ECSB mentions the Gatekeepers, Dhakaani, War of the Mark, and things like the lightning rail and everbright lanterns, this material isn't fully developed. However, my reason for anticipating MoE so greatly was that I wanted to understand/know even more about how magic *is* integrated into the fabric of the Five Nations, above and beyond the hints and teases we received in the ECSB. MY dissatisfaction with MoE stems from the fact that it doesn't deliver that. Look, my first post was a rant, and probably seems trollish. After more thought, my questions are these: - Where are the Eberron-specific spells/powers and feats? - Where is the developed discussion of Gatekeeper magic, its effect on the world, and current incarnations of it? - Where is the developed discussion of Giant magic and artifice, its effect on the world, and current incarnations of it? - Where is the developed discussion of Dhakaani magic and artifice, its effect on the world, and current incarnations of it? - Where is the definition and developed discussion of Aundair's Knights Arcane, and Aundair-specific magical innovation? - Where is the definition and developed discussion of Karrnath's significant magical ability, aside from this obsession in every sourcebook with the undead/necromancy angle? - Where is the developed discussion of Thrane/Cyran/Brelish magic? - Where is the developed discussion of (perhaps the most significant "magical fabric") the Dragonmarked Houses and their effects on the magic of the Five Nations? Think of all of the customized spells House mages could have devised in the last 2000 years, or House-oriented PrCs. All we get is part of House Tharashk. Why? Are the others not also important to a developed discussion of magic on Eberron? - Where is the developed discussion of how the War of the Mark and the Last War influenced magical development on Khorvaire? Sure, we know about some innovations, but there's a lot more to cover. - Why do we only get one new organization? Where are all of the guilds of arcanists throughout the Five Nations? - Where is the divine magic? This sourcebook is another one of these 160-page books that falls far short of where it could, and should, be. Remember how awed you were by the ECSB? Or the Sharn sourcebook? Is it too much to ask to keep being awed by the thoroughness of an Eberron sourcebook, or by how much it raises the bar for future D&D releases? MoE may be an ok book, with things in it that DMs and players will want to use. But it's far from being a phenomenal book, and I thought people should know that, especially those who were greatly anticipating it, like me. If you're going to return it anyway, why not just mail it to me? (Seriously, I'll even pay for shipping) Because, DanjaNinja, I took Heroes of Horror instead. To my great surprise, it turned out to truly be a phenomenal book. James Wyatt should be highly commended for what he did with it. Every single one of you should strongly consider spending your $30 on HoH instead of MoE. It's very, very good.
Hellcow 10-16-05, 11:49 PM	I took Heroes of Horror instead. To my great surprise, it turned out to truly be a phenomenal book. James Wyatt should be highly commended for what he did with it. Don't forget C.A. Suleiman and Ari Marmell. Both are excellent authors and designers, and I look forward to seeing their work on HoH.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 10-16-05, 11:51 PM	If this is the case, I recommend at least looking at Heroes of Horror. Besides solid writing, the supplement features two (count 'em) two base classes, both of which are pretty good. The Dread Necromancer might be the creepy mage your looking for. I was planning on picking up both. HoH sounds like something I could certainly make great use of, new base classes are (almost) always good (I love giving my players options to get the exact right class, and since I start campaigns at level one, most of the PrC's that give focus to what a player wants to do are often unavailable until a campaign is at least two months old), and I've always loved anything that helps me creep the bejeezus out of my players. But it was never an either/or proposition between Heroes of Horror and Magic of Eberron for me. I've been looking forward to both since summer. The fact of the matter is that the advertising was not only incorrect, but this close to the release date, it was borderline dishonest. It's not like it was six months ago before the content was settled... We've been told up to the very week of release that the book would have something it didn't. That just doesn't sit well with me.
Atlictoatl 10-17-05, 12:06 AM	Don't forget C.A. Suleiman and Ari Marmell. Both are excellent authors and designers, and I look forward to seeing their work on HoH. You are absolutely right. Thanks for reminding me to pay homage to them all.
realdm 10-17-05, 04:46 AM	however we must admit that Sharn and the ECS are a thousand times better than the other sourcebooks. it seems that those written without keith baker dont come out as nice as they are supposed to be.
MrFilthyIke 10-17-05, 08:17 AM	however we must admit that Sharn and the ECS are a thousand times better than the other sourcebooks. it seems that those written without keith baker dont come out as nice as they are supposed to be. I'm sure flattery will get you everywhere with Keith, but doing it so publicy? Tsk Tsk. ;) :D
shemov 10-17-05, 08:25 AM	I consider ECS, Sharn:CoT, 3 adventures and Keith Baker's Dragonshards as core material only. The quality of RoE, MoE, 5N, EH is 2 or 3 stars only and brings chaos in my imagination. I have stopped reading Sharn Inquisitive as well. I hope WotC will think about last releases and will work hard to improve back to 5 stars in case of PGtE and other new Eberron materials.
Splendide 10-17-05, 09:52 AM	Actually in the Adaptation section of the PrC it suggest that you can replace Favored in House with Skill Focus(Craft[alchemy]) as requirement if you want non-Dragon marked Savants in the game. This seems fairly official to me.Thats kind of my point. There is an important difference between the superficial "Oh, I guess gnomes could do it if you want" of most material, and the Keith-style "It just makes sense that gnomes would do it, why wouldn't they?" One person is actively thinking through the setting for logical connections with what is already written. The other is just lumping something new in.
Tom McCarthy 10-17-05, 11:03 AM	I think it's a little strong to say 'huge disappointment', but I will say it's a disappointing book. I, too, wanted to hear about how the history of Eberron is shaped by magic and how magic has shaped the history of Eberron. I don't really want to hear that all the magic that makes Eberron unique comes from the lost cultures of Xen'drik. I don't really want to hear that the hidden secrets of Eberron are common knowledge. Consider this anecdote, which parts of which I must be sketchy about. A friend of mine from high school wanted to write an Eberron adventure for Dungeon magazine. He submitted an idea for an interesting adventure that I thought neatly captured the adventure tone and feel I'd like to see in Eberron. But he needed a MacGuffin, a treasure suitable to motivate the NPCs and PCs in the adventure. He easily devised a list of 6-8 MacGuffins just based on published Eberron material. And then he started to get imaginative, and it quickly became clear that Eberron was a land with easily two to four dozen organizations, nations, and power groups with clear goals and objectives, but also with secrets and information they want, or want to keep hidden. In reading the ECS, I was captivated by the idea of Eberron's cosmology and creation myths (12 or 13 months, 12 or 13 planes, 12 or 13 gods in the draconic pantheon, 12 or 13 moons, 12 or 13 dragonmarks, the shape of Eberron itself (one shouldn't assume a sphere), etc.). But beyond that, and not detracting from it, was a brief, concise description of a culture shaped and made unique by magic and war, with a relatively consistent history and politics unfolding. And because I love for my players to uncover secrets, I loved that there were secrets like why King Kaius I gave up the throne, who killed Boranel's wife, a secret warforged creation forge beneath Sharn, and why the Glass Tower fell. To a certain extent, I even enjoyed seeing contradictory info about why the Glass Tower fell, so that I could choose for myself. I'm curious about Xen'drik and yet glad as a GM to create the interior myself. Magic of Eberron is a very complete volume on many things which are secondary features of my campaign and which I could do without. My players aren't going to perform elemental binding, for example. I don't expect any of them to become Dragon Totem Lorekeepers. And Dragon Prophets, while incredibly cool, would be cool even without a Prestige Class and unique game mechanics (how many feats ?). Other things I wanted to see, I never did. With Adamantine Blade, where's Byeshk Blade or Silver Blade? The former would certainly be uniquely Eberron. There's two more quori, but why not 6 or 8 more? Why do I feel like Races of Eberron actually has more Eberron spells than Magic of Eberron ? Why weren't psiforged in Races of Eberron? What's a Vigilant Sentinel of Aerenal got to do with magic in Eberron?
realdm 10-17-05, 11:34 AM	I'm sure flattery will get you everywhere with Keith, but doing it so publicy? Tsk Tsk. its true, i hope to flee with him on argonessen and play an high power eberron campaign with him for the rest of my life
MrFilthyIke 10-17-05, 11:37 AM	its true, i hope to flee with him on argonessen and play an high power eberron campaign with him for the rest of my life And have bovine love children to populate to Dragon Continent, right? :D
jonthegm 10-17-05, 11:39 AM	I thought that Magic of Eberron was good enough for 30 bucks. Hell, I've paid the same for less crunch (White Wolf books, I'm looking at you!). My main complaint is I want more, and that there STILL is no index. Neither is surprising. Also, I want to be on the record as saying "THANK GOD THERE ARE NO NEW BASE CLASSES." I hate new base classes. The artificer is cool, but I'm much more of a proponent of multi-classing than rewriting base-classes.
realdm 10-17-05, 11:46 AM	i dont know about magic of eberron because i still dont have it, but i have been thinking while i was reading the forum. all the supplements have amazing art and lots of information, but for example, i have been using sharn like a monkey because my campaign was set in it for three months (20 sessions). now my pcs are around the 5 nations. what does the book really states, the 5 n book.. not much they have to go to thrane.. there is not much, it s almost useless. and aundair? same, apart for arcanix. the explorer is amazing, beautiful book. i love it and i'll use it a lot. but it will create millions of group playing the same adventures. i mean i love my eberron books, i really do, but i think that the explorer and 5n, a part for the inconcistencies(lots of them) arent that much, especially if compared to sharn and the ecs-- and let alone races of eberron..please so my only hope is that MOE will be a bit better
Brastan 10-17-05, 12:15 PM	I thought that Magic of Eberron was good enough for 30 bucks. Hell, I've paid the same for less crunch (White Wolf books, I'm looking at you!). My main complaint is I want more, and that there STILL is no index. Hasn't someone made an Indexing program by now? I use EndNote for my citations and it does a wonderful job with formating in just about every style.
Haldstaff_Dundragon 10-17-05, 12:32 PM	In regards to the base class missing from MoE: that blurb was in last months Dragon magazine. Magazines typically are written about 6 months in advance, then go out for typesetting and layout. Text changes CAN happen about 3 months out, but it's expensive and can be corrected in the next issue with a correction and apology, so is usually just left in. In other words, Dragon expected the base class to be in MoE 7 months ago! If it was dropped since then, there is no easy way to have corrected that blurb! No one is deliberately lying to you! Sheesh. I normally have to browse ATS to find this much conspiracy theory nonsense.
Urko 10-17-05, 01:04 PM	Well I must say I do feel more than a little lied to. That alone is enough to reduce the odds of buying MoE to about slim to none... And slim isn't talking to me anymore. GDD – do you honestly believe that the designers, marketers, etc. sit around saying “Hey, let’s write out a bunch of advance ad copy that includes things we never had any intention of putting in the book and then give them something completely different – just to be mean! Mwa ha ha!”? More than likely, this Blood Magus class was either cut for space or there was some miscommunication when the information was passed along for the preview article. Sometimes things change during development. I don’t consider this malicious deceit, just the way things happen sometimes. Besides, isn’t $30 kind of a lot to pay for one class? Surely the other material must have been of interest to you if you had at least been considering purchasing. (edit: Haldstaff beat me to the punch with a much more succinct and to the point explanation). I’m a little confused why so many people are so obsessed with this class to begin with. Was there more information about what the class specifically was supposed to do that had people so interested? Just from the name, it sounds a lot like one of the PrC’s that appeared in Complete Arcane. I would have been seriously annoyed if space in this book was taken up with rehashing a PrC I’ve already seen. Maybe it would have been something different. Who’s to say? But I am curious what it was that had people so riled up.
Hellcow 10-17-05, 02:17 PM	I’m a little confused why so many people are so obsessed with this class to begin with. Was there more information about what the class specifically was supposed to do that had people so interested? Just from the name, it sounds a lot like one of the PrC’s that appeared in Complete Arcane. I am a little confused about this, too. Assuming that it is simply an expansion to the BM PrC, is there a particular reason people feel it's ideally suited to Eberron - more so than, say, the mastermaker or Quori mindhunter?
Golbez57 10-17-05, 03:18 PM	I'm enjoying what I've read so far of Magic of Eberron. I'd have read more of it, but it prompted me to pick up other books that I hadn't really dug into in awhile and rediscover things in them, too. In the case of the Explorer's Handbook, this was a pleasant surprise; I didn't enjoy that book much at all at first, but am now seeing how it and MoE weave nicely together and into other Eberron materials, and could contribute much to our ongoing campaign. Regarding the missing Blood Magus class, I was eagerly anticipating it, if only because the Blood of Vol fascinates me, as do the "bloodlines" of the Dragonmarked Houses. I was curious to see which of these two aspects of Eberron the class was tied to... and prepared to be caught unawares with another unanticipated connection to what's already been established about the world.
Atlictoatl 10-17-05, 11:37 PM	I think it's a little strong to say 'huge disappointment', but I will say it's a disappointing book. Thanks for taking the time to share your perspective. I appreciate the exposure to the opinion of another disappointed reader, and one that is well-reasoned and without rant. :)
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 10-18-05, 12:41 AM	GDD – do you honestly believe that the designers, marketers, etc. sit around saying “Hey, let’s write out a bunch of advance ad copy that includes things we never had any intention of putting in the book and then give them something completely different – just to be mean! Mwa ha ha!”? More than likely, this Blood Magus class was either cut for space or there was some miscommunication when the information was passed along for the preview article. Sometimes things change during development. I don’t consider this malicious deceit, just the way things happen sometimes. Besides, isn’t $30 kind of a lot to pay for one class? Surely the other material must have been of interest to you if you had at least been considering purchasing. (edit: Haldstaff beat me to the punch with a much more succinct and to the point explanation). I’m a little confused why so many people are so obsessed with this class to begin with. Was there more information about what the class specifically was supposed to do that had people so interested? Just from the name, it sounds a lot like one of the PrC’s that appeared in Complete Arcane. I would have been seriously annoyed if space in this book was taken up with rehashing a PrC I’ve already seen. Maybe it would have been something different. Who’s to say? But I am curious what it was that had people so riled up. I suppose you have a good point. It wasn't just the Blood Magus that had me interrested in the book, but Magic of Faerun had created a certain expectation of a large ammount of magic and magic items that actually helped develop the world further than just the PHB and the FRCS. As far as the "deciet" goes, it's true that things can get screwy as a product nears its release date... but would it be too much to ask for some sort of official apology for the misinformation? I can honestly say I'd feel satisfied with that. Anyways, I'm sorry... I didn't mean to be an agitator, but even though I've been looking forward to the book, the Blood Magus was the primary bit of content I was intrigued by. I could be fine with losing out on the Blood Magus if the rest of the book proved as remarkable as MoF... Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like this is the case.
Wycen the Clueless 10-18-05, 01:58 AM	20 levels of blood mage would be a waste of space. Did they actually say Blood Mage/Magus class or say something along the lines of "info on blood magic"? I'm thinking the later, which is indeed what they give us with the fluff text regarding the giants and elves history. Now, if it was about the rituals of the Blood of Vol, then that would have been a good addition. There is always the web enhancement, (hopefully not a blood mage class).
PoeticJustice 10-18-05, 02:56 AM	I could be fine with losing out on the Blood Magus if the rest of the book proved as remarkable as MoF... Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like this is the case. I'm a little intrigued by this position. After all, over on the other board you had no idea what a Blood Magus would be doing in MoE until I suggeste the Blood of Vol connection.
lugnut71 10-18-05, 12:46 PM	Personally I disagree with the assesment of the OP. I really think the book shows the magic of Eberron. Key word here is Eberron, not the magic of the 5 Nations. It offers up a lot of the elements that make Eberron unique. Like the Prophecy, undead (deathless) worshipping elves, artifice, dalkyr flesh corruption, etc.
Atlictoatl 10-18-05, 10:31 PM	Personally I disagree with the assesment of the OP. I really think the book shows the magic of Eberron. Key word here is Eberron, not the magic of the 5 Nations. It offers up a lot of the elements that make Eberron unique. Like the Prophecy, undead (deathless) worshipping elves, artifice, dalkyr flesh corruption, etc. That's a valid point.
Von Ether 10-18-05, 10:37 PM	Personally I disagree with the assesment of the OP. I really think the book shows the magic of Eberron. Key word here is Eberron, not the magic of the 5 Nations. It offers up a lot of the elements that make Eberron unique. Like the Prophecy, undead (deathless) worshipping elves, artifice, dalkyr flesh corruption, etc. I'm clueless, because this is what I was expecting. I like the variety in the book, every player at my table is now drooling and readjusting their plans to get aquire either this new piece of dragonshard armor or that plant graft, etc.
stembolt 10-18-05, 10:47 PM	I am a little confused about this, too. Assuming that it is simply an expansion to the BM PrC, is there a particular reason people feel it's ideally suited to Eberron - more so than, say, the mastermaker or Quori mindhunter? Nothing can ever be more perfect than what you imagine about the thing that didn’t come out.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 10-19-05, 01:41 AM	I'm a little intrigued by this position. After all, over on the other board you had no idea what a Blood Magus would be doing in MoE until I suggeste the Blood of Vol connection. This is true, but I couldn't really think of a bad connection for the Blood Magus. It could have been anything, really... Be it tied to the Blood of the Dragonmarked Houses, the Blood of the Daelkyr (which, by now, must be spread wide and thin like magic itself in Eberron, given the quantity of their creations), the Blood of each of the Eberronian races, or, as you suggested, the Blood of Vol. Regardless, never having been that great of a fan of the PrC, I was looking forward to a class that treated magic fuelled by blood just a little bit better.
lugnut71 10-19-05, 11:12 AM	Actually for that matter at this point we don't even know if the class had any connection to blood other than a cool name. I find it is best not to get excited about anything you don't know about.
Siran Dunmorgan 10-19-05, 12:19 PM	Personally I disagree with the assesment of the OP. I really think the book shows the magic of Eberron. Key word here is Eberron, not the magic of the 5 Nations. It offers up a lot of the elements that make Eberron unique. Like the Prophecy, undead (deathless) worshipping elves, artifice, dalkyr flesh corruption, etc. True, but it does so in ways that offer violence to the integrity of the setting. The oft-cited change in the nature of the rebellion of the elves and the founding of Aerenal is one example of this, as is the nature of daelkyr confinement. With respect to the presence/absence of the Blood Magus class, it seems to me that there were simply several points of confusion. First, there is a tendency at Wizards of the Coast to re-name prestige classes almost up to the point where the books are published: the Cannith Mastermaker being a recent example. Further, there is a tendency to confuse elements of books that are being published around the same time. I suspect, based on these factors, that the Blood Magus class that many supposed would appear in Magic of Eberron is in fact the Tainted Scholar class found in Heroes of Horror. This latter class does have a number of elements of blood-based magic, including the Blood Component class feature (allowing a drop of the caster's blood to replace material components, and increase the caster level of the spell) and the Blooded Metamagic, Stanch, Bloodseeking Spell, and Thicker Than Water secrets, i.e., about half the class features are based on blood. The principal drawback to the class is that it's also fairly well tied up with the taint rules, but that's not such a bad thing if you're running a darker campaign. —Siran Dunmorgan
Uller999 10-19-05, 01:01 PM	Keith, I know you may not be to keen on slaggin your peers but what did you think of Magic of Eberron? Is there anyway you might have time for a little review as a professional instead of winging from a random guy? It would certainly help me out alot
The Dreaming Duck 10-19-05, 01:19 PM	Keith, I know you may not be to keen on slaggin your peers but what did you think of Magic of Eberron? Is there anyway you might have time for a little review as a professional instead of winging from a random guy? Realistically, while you might like such a thing, that would put Keith in an extremely difficult position. If he likes it, then that's great. But what if he doesn't like it? If KEITH posts a review saying "This book sucks!" how do you think WotC's going to respond? He is a freelancer, and if they want to stop using him they can do it in a heartbeat. I'm sure he's not happy about the history of the elves, the confinement of the daelkyr, and other things that directly contradict what he's written. But unless he truly loves it, asking Keith to write a review is either asking him to lie to us or to commit political suicide and jeopardize his chances of working for WotC again. Give the poor guy a break!
DoveArrow 10-19-05, 01:26 PM	You think Magic of Faerun, the book that brought us the gnome artificer, the most useless prestige class in the world (trust me, I played one), is an essential tool for anyone playing in Forgotten Realms? Wow. I just don't know what to say about that because there really wasn't anything in that book (well, other than the gnome artificer initially) that even remotely interested me. However, I guess to each their own. Anyway, while I agree that the fluff in MoE is not entirely consistent (or for that matter terribly interesting), I found that most of the crunchy bits were very satisfying. I already have plans for a deadgrim NPC my campaign, and am very much interested in the alchemical savant. Meanwhile, I very much liked the dragon totem rituals that give you special powers, the insights into the Draconic Prophecy, the various feats, and spells, the mechanics for binding elementals and using dragonshards, etc. Honestly, I'm surprised that none of these appealed to you. In any case, I hope that this thread doesn't dissuade people from buying the book, because while it isn't Sharn: City of Towers, it's still a highly decent book.
Hellcow 10-19-05, 01:55 PM	While I agree that the fluff in MoE is not entirely consistent (or for that matter terribly interesting), I found that most of the crunchy bits were very satisfying... However, I guess to each their own. I think this thread is a better review than any I could give, because your mileage will vary. If you like the sound of elemental grafts, more symbionts, PrCs like the mastermaker, a little more psionic support - you'll find lots to like in MoE. On the other hand, if you're looking for an in-depth look at the cultural impact magic has had on the development of the Five Nations, the processes used by House Cannith's fabricator's guild, etc., that's not what this book is. MoE is more about magical and psionic options to add to a game than about the history of magic. Only you know what you're looking for.
MrFilthyIke 10-19-05, 02:00 PM	Only you know what you're looking for. And only YOU can prevent the Kings Forest fires. ;)
pilias_simber 10-19-05, 03:39 PM	My GF purchased this book for me yesterday as a surprise! I haven't read it all the way through but after skimming it I am quite satisfied by the material presented in the book. I also liked to see lots of material mentioned in the Ask Keith Baker thread make it into the book (ex. Psionic Warforged and Psionic Artificers) I also really liked some of the new options presented in the book.
Todd 10-19-05, 03:52 PM	This book has one of the most potentially broken psionic items ever. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=521212
Uller999 10-19-05, 06:07 PM	Realistically, while you might like such a thing, that would put Keith in an extremely difficult position. If he likes it, then that's great. But what if he doesn't like it? If KEITH posts a review saying "This book sucks!" how do you think WotC's going to respond? He is a freelancer, and if they want to stop using him they can do it in a heartbeat. I'm sure he's not happy about the history of the elves, the confinement of the daelkyr, and other things that directly contradict what he's written. But unless he truly loves it, asking Keith to write a review is either asking him to lie to us or to commit political suicide and jeopardize his chances of working for WotC again. Give the poor guy a break! I'm aware of that, that's why I used a qualifier, and not to troll but that right there is the problem with most of modern day politics and to lesser extent modern day society. If you disagree with something or think something sucks than say so. Honesty should be accounted higher. Keith gave an acceptable answer, which is to say a neutral one. So thanks for that Keith ps. it should never hurt to ask someones opinion
Argonel 10-19-05, 08:13 PM	Maybe what is really called for is better separation between game world canon, and game world mythologies. Canon being what truely is for game continuity. and game mythologies being what is believed by the characters in that world. There should be multiple mythologies, especially for complex and old events, a quick look at real world creation myths should make that obvious. This is also why I would like to see more material from the characters perspective like what was presented in teh explorers handbook. That makes it clear that the NPC belives it, even if it isn't true, which may be more important than if it is actually true.
Dauntless 10-19-05, 09:27 PM	Don't forget C.A. Suleiman and Ari Marmell. Both are excellent authors and designers, and I look forward to seeing their work on HoH. Much love for Mousferatu! Also is C.A.S. where "Cas" came from?
Mike Czaplinski 10-20-05, 08:00 AM	Check out the other MoE thread, Kanatash. There's a quote from Keith on the issue that is worth reading. I'd be interested in hearing more about some of the bits you're into, Kanatash. I'd secretly like to be sold on the book. I, too, noticed Aeren's 'Gender Confusion', though I do rather like the overall thrust of the narrative. I am always leery of any Eberron book that has no KB credit, and I am disappointed that he seems to have played no part in this one. I would have thought that they guy who created the darn world might have been allowed some input to a publication on how the magic of said world worked. What is the thread title that you're referring to, Atlictoatl? I can't find anything using WOTC's *WONDERFUL* board search feature. <*RANT ON*> That is to say, my two brown eyes.... I refuse to believe that WOTC couldn't afford to hire a programmer to fix the board search feature. It smacks of disdain for their most loyal customers, but then again this is WOTC we're talking about. <*RANT OFF*> As far as your disenchantment with the book: to each their own. Granted I've only read Chapter One in detail (I'm not much on crunchy game stats), I am liking what I'm seeing, especially WRT the Daelkyr. My own planned campaign will feature them prominently, and I don't own either BoVD or LoM so the info on half-daelkyr, grafts and (especially) symbionts in MoE is quite appreciated. And, despite their lukewarm acceptance on the boards here, the psiforged will actually be of use to me in my plans. MikeC
The White Sorcerer 10-20-05, 08:14 AM	I refuse to believe that WOTC couldn't afford to hire a programmer to fix the board search feature. It smacks of disdain for their most loyal customers, but then again this is WOTC we're talking about. This isn't a programming issue. The server simply can't handle the amount of searches made on these forums.
Mike Czaplinski 10-20-05, 08:41 AM	This isn't a programming issue. The server simply can't handle the amount of searches made on these forums. <*attach Mike'sUpperLipTwitches.MPG*> That makes me even MORE mad at WOTC, then. Servers are dirt cheap nowadays. But I will stop commenting further, since I don't want to hijack this thread. ObMoE: The mechanics for the elemental binding look like they might be extended to the daelkyr's imprisonment. MikeC
Todd 10-20-05, 10:54 AM	It wasn't servers they are good there. Check here for the crunchy detials: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=456468
icedrake 10-20-05, 11:17 AM	I, too, noticed Aeren's 'Gender Confusion', though I do rather like the overall thrust of the narrative. I am always leery of any Eberron book that has no KB credit, and I am disappointed that he seems to have played no part in this one. I would have thought that they guy who created the darn world might have been allowed some input to a publication on how the magic of said world worked. MikeC Keith's a major part of Eberron's design team and contributing writer and I think we're very lucky that he's working at WotC to help develop Eberron as a world. On the other hand, he can't have a hand in publishing every book. Using FR as an example, I'm pretty not of the orignal authors are contributing and who knows if the current incarnation even has a semblance of their oringal vision. Keith's a part of a creative team that works together to develop the spirit of Eberron and he doesn't always get to have things his way. Not accepting parts of books or a whole book simply because he wasn't part of its development I believe is stupid. After hearing the Gen Con pannel on Eberron, I'm very happy knowing who the lead designers, feeling they've got as much passion about the world as I do and that they'll lead it in a good direction for many years. Though I do not currently have the MoE book just yet, I do plan on buying it this weekend and incorperating much of the Elemental binding and Dragonic Prophesy into my game.
DoveArrow 10-20-05, 11:31 AM	I think this thread is a better review than any I could give, because your mileage will vary. If you like the sound of elemental grafts, more symbionts, PrCs like the mastermaker, a little more psionic support - you'll find lots to like in MoE. On the other hand, if you're looking for an in-depth look at the cultural impact magic has had on the development of the Five Nations, the processes used by House Cannith's fabricator's guild, etc., that's not what this book is. MoE is more about magical and psionic options to add to a game than about the history of magic. Only you know what you're looking for. Praise from the Almighty Cow always makes me smile. :D
Siran Dunmorgan 10-20-05, 11:50 AM	Comment withdrawn. Too much vitriol. —Siran Dunmorgan
lugnut71 10-20-05, 11:58 AM	Comment withdrawn. Too much vitriol. —Siran Dunmorgan I like Keith's input as much as the next guy but I don't want him writing every book. I prefer a large pool instead of an individuals view. Along these lines I wouldn't mind if we got different stories in each book about how things came to be. For instance in the elves case. One could be the Valner's view where she dies, the other could be the Khovaire elve's, a third story could be the Aernal elve's. The DM can than decide which he likes. Also along these lines why the heck does everyone want things like this written out consistent? I really don't understand. Somethings I can see like the moon issue but I thing a broad approach allows people to select what they want or ignore it all together.
Atlictoatl 10-20-05, 12:55 PM	You think Magic of Faerun, the book that brought us the gnome artificer, the most useless prestige class in the world (trust me, I played one), is an essential tool for anyone playing in Forgotten Realms? Wow. I just don't know what to say about that because there really wasn't anything in that book (well, other than the gnome artificer initially) that even remotely interested me. However, I guess to each their own. I feel silly defending Magic of Faerun. But since I'm comparing MoE to it, for those who aren't familiar with it: It wasn't a flawless book, but it contains almost 70 pages of spells (a large portion (majority?) of which are designed to fit into the setting); almost 50 pages of predominantly useful magic items (including the first addition I know of to Special Materials); an article on "the Magic Item Trade" which is of special utility because a key organization (Red Wizards of Thay) infiltrates geopolitical areas through a specialization in magical trade; a Places of Power article that discusses natural, religious, magical, and collegial environments in a manner that further develops the Campaign Setting (to my knowledge, the first article that discusses this now widely featured subject); a short two pages of Feats that was so richly developed that most of them have been reprinted in Complete Arcane or other sources; eleven Prestige Classes that further develop aspects of the Campaign Setting whilst focusing on primary play (Waterdeep guild wizard, two Harper PrCs, Spellfire Channeler, War Wizard of Cormyr -- the Gnome Artificer was a waste, but IMO the only one in the PrC section); and two chapters on the deities of magic and on magic that is unique to the setting (Elemental Magic, Elven High Magic, Gem Magic, Mageduels, Rune Magic, Moonfire and Spellfire, and Mage Pools) -- this is similar to Eberron's focus on variant magic, though it is only 4% of the entire MoF instead of dominating almost all of the book (as with MoE), and IMO it is more useful to a standard campaign. The book is eminently useful to DM and player alike for regular play, to the degree that I often use it for PrCs, feats, spells, and items in non-FR campaigns, I use it to think about variant magic in other settings, it's widely considered required material for anyone building tough mage builds at high-ECLs, and I consider it to be required material for any FRCS campaign. Further, as specific contradiction to Magic of Eberron, a large majority of the feats, spells, and variant magic types do not require that players be from some relatively obscure or far off civilization. It's 189 pages, produced on better paper and with better page design and art than even the Eberron Campaign Sourcebook, and it is $29.95. It's a seminal work (meaning it contains seeds that have contributed to later development). MoE may become seminal, but it doesn't seem to have that scope of vision, IMO, if even the wide appeal. I'm actually not an FR fan, but I am a D&D fan, and MoF has proved invaluable to me. In any case, I hope that this thread doesn't dissuade people from buying the book, because while it isn't Sharn: City of Towers, it's still a highly decent book.The purpose of this thread was to warn folks that they should endeavor to look at the book before buying it to ensure it contained the material they want, as it doesn't for me and I was surprised by that given the previous Magic of... title. Mike Czaplinski, I thought the thread was Magic of Eberron Released (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=518277), but I no longer see that post by Keith there. I may be mistaken about that thread, but I'm also not finding it elsewhere.
Siran Dunmorgan 10-20-05, 01:49 PM	Also along these lines: why the heck does everyone want things like this written out consistently? I really don't understand. Some things I can see—like the moon issue—but I think a broad approach allows people to select what they want, or to ignore it altogether. This, at least, I can address without getting too patronizing. :) At one end of a certain spectrum of Dungeon Masters are those with extensive home-brew campaigns: they write all of their on material, and develop it consistently. A great many Dungeon Masters fall into this category. We will, with respect, disregard them for purposes of this discussion, because they don't generally concern themselves with published campaign settings. At the opposite end of this spectrum are Dungeon Masters who write none of their own material, but run only adventures and campaigns that they purchase or obtain from other sources. A great many Dungeon Masters fall into this category as well, and they are of concern to this discussion, because they concern themselves only with published campaign settings. Near to this latter group are found the greatest numbers of Dungeon Masters, the 'bread and butter' customers of Wizards of the Coast, who write their own adventures that are essentially essays in 'filling in the blanks' of ideas or rough outlines presented in books and articles, occasionally running published adventures 'out of the box.' The continuity issue arises for these last two groups of Dungeon Masters, and the continuity that they have already built for their players. They have told their players that certain things are true about the world their characters inhabit, and with respect to certain things, expect that they will remain consistent. Allow me to offer an example: In the real world, Shakespeare's play Romeo and Juliet exemplifies one of the great literary themes, of love forbidden by family politics and rivalry. It is a trivial exercise, almost a reflex, for authors to want to apply this theme to the dragonmarked Houses of Khorvaire. But in the world presented in the Eberron Campaign Setting, such a story would not come to pass in the modern era: both the Romeo and the Juliet of Eberron would know that consummation of their love is forbidden not by politics but by biology: they run a significant risk of bringing a monster into the world. Now, one of the authors of Five Nations gave in to the reflex mentioned earlier, and proposed an adventure involving such a courtship, wholly without reference to aberrant dragonmarks, the War of the Mark, and the long-standing prohibition on such miscegenation. "But"—I hear the cry of dissent—"this is only one incident. Dungeon Masters are free to ignore it if it doesn't agree with their world." And this is true, in this one instance. But Five Nations is now official Eberron content, upon which future authors are encouraged to draw for concepts and ideas. It is not infeasible to imagine that another author, drawing upon the scenario presented in Five Nations, would use this powerful literary theme, and present an even more extensive plot by the Lords of Dust involving intermarriage among the Houses in novels, adventure paths, or future sourcebooks. With time, Dungeon Masters who chose to remain true to the Eberron Campaign Setting and its presentation of relationships among the Houses find themselves required to ignore more and more material published by Wizards of the Coast, or to spend countless hours annotating the published material to agree with their existing campaign. This becomes even more problematic and fractious with respect to the Valenar, and the legend of Aeren as presented in Magic of Eberron. The history of the elves' rebellion against the giants is not solely 'fluff'. The rationale for such game mechanics as the spell spirit steed, and certain feats such as Right of Counsel are based on the history of the elves actually having occured in a particular way. The government of Aerenal is what it is—and the factional distinctions between the Aereni and the Tairndal are what they are—exactly because of the history of the elves in Xen'drik, which is now contradicted by the story presented in Magic of Eberron. How many more future articles, sourcebooks, adventures, computer games, and other materials set in Eberron will draw on Magic of Eberron as a guide for this material? The history of the elven rebellion against the giants is already a significant part of Dungeons & Dragons Online: Stormreach, for example. The problem is not the material that we have to cross out of our books today—the problem is the material that we'll have to cross out of our books, or books that we will not buy, in the future because they have diverged too far from the material upon which our campaigns were based. —Siran Dunmorgan
ekomega 10-20-05, 01:58 PM	I completely agree. Consistency is important! Didn't WotC learn anything from the collapse of TSR? They had little consistency after so many books were published, and they were producing garbage at the end. WotC seems to be following this same trend. Maybe their business plan is to produce such garbage that another company buys them out and they all get to cash in their stock options and get rich, while screwing the community and their customers. I don't know.
Raziel_Brokodar 10-20-05, 02:16 PM	I can't pass my judgement... but personally I'd like to see the spells/powers, Psiforged, whatever the other race is, and the character options. (feats, prestige classes, etc..) :D
DoveArrow 10-20-05, 03:41 PM	I completely agree. Consistency is important! Didn't WotC learn anything from the collapse of TSR? They had little consistency after so many books were published, and they were producing garbage at the end. WotC seems to be following this same trend. Maybe their business plan is to produce such garbage that another company buys them out and they all get to cash in their stock options and get rich, while screwing the community and their customers. I don't know. :rant: Oh please! I really don't think that's a fair assessment at all. I think that Wizards of the Coast has produced some of the most quality publications within the last few years that have ever been produced for Dungeons & Dragons. Just look at some of the titles and tell me if I'm wrong: Expanded Psionics Handbook, The Eberron Campaign Setting, Lords of Madness, Lost Empires of Faerun, the Dungeon Master's Guide II, and the list goes on and on. If Wizards (or Hasbro) didn't care about their product, and if they just wanted to 'cash in and get rich' off of selling the company, I don't think you'd see fantastic publications like these. In fact, I know that if they were planning on just selling the company off, they wouldn't have done the Campaign Setting Search. So please relax. One book that has some inconsistencies concerning the background of some relatively obscure characters in Eberron does not mean that the company is selling out. All it means is that the people at Wizards of the Coast are human and that like all of us, they make mistakes.
Majorafire77 10-20-05, 03:48 PM	Maybe their business plan is to produce such garbage that another company buys them out and they all get to cash in their stock options and get rich, while screwing the community and their customers. I don't know. Do you seriously believe that? :rolleyes: Their business plan is to get as much cash as possible within the smallest amount of time possible (isn't this the plan for all businesses?). It is obvious to see this in the consistency issues, the fact that the books have no indexes, lower page counts, and overally lower-quality material than the books beforehand. WotC isn't stupid (as you've suggested), they're simply stubborn. If they don't see major changes in the number of books that people are buying after the recent price increase, they will keep on producing the same low-quality stuff that they have been. To be honest, if I was in their position right now I'd be doing the exact same thing, wouldn't you? Keep in mind that the primary goal of a business is to make money, not to please its customers.
Siran Dunmorgan 10-20-05, 04:04 PM	I think that Wizards of the Coast has produced some of the most quality publications within the last few years that have ever been produced for Dungeons & Dragons. Just look at some of the titles and tell me if I'm wrong: Expanded Psionics Handbook, The Eberron Campaign Setting, Lords of Madness, Lost Empires of Faerun, the Dungeon Master's Guide II, and the list goes on and on. If Wizards (or Hasbro) didn't care about their product, and if they just wanted to 'cash in and get rich' off of selling the company, I don't think you'd see fantastic publications like these. In fact, I know that if they were planning on just selling the company off, they wouldn't have done the Campaign Setting Search. So please relax. One book that has some inconsistencies concerning the background of some relatively obscure characters in Eberron does not mean that the company is selling out. All it means is that the people at Wizards of the Coast are human and that like all of us, they make mistakes. DoveArrow, I'm not claiming that they don't care: in fact, I'm quite certain that pretty much everyone working on the Dungeons & Dragons product line at Wizards of the Coast is there because they care deeply about the game. What I am claiming is quite the opposite: I think they have continuity problems because they're trying desperately to keep the product line alive. They have deadlines, and they have business obligations that they have to meet simply to keep things going. Part of that almost certainly means that they're doing the writing and editing on too much work and too little sleep. But I was responding to lugnut71's question about why continuity is important—and I still believe that continuity is important. The key thing is to keep the discontinuities from building on one another, and that's one of the things we can do here by providing feedback. —Siran Dunmorgan
DoveArrow 10-20-05, 05:05 PM	I was actually going to comment on the consistency thing, but then my wife made me take her to lunch (love you honey). For the most part, MoE is consistent. Aeren, for example, was the leader of the elves, and they did leave Xen'drik and head for Aerenal. Granted, a few details about the actual events are conflicting, but in the scheme of things, the inconsistency is very minor overall. Meanwhile, before you say that they should run all these things by Keith, consider the fact that not every Star Trek episode was run by Gene Roddenberry, and not every book in the Hardy Boys series was run by Edward Stratemeyer. The reason for that is they don't have time to run everything by the creator. In fact, in a lot of cases, running things by the creator can hamper the creative process. Look at the first two seasons of The Next Generation if you think I'm wrong. Keith has created a fantastic world and each writer should be given the creative freedom to build off of that world. Meanwhile, if there is a dispute over something in MoE and the ECS, my response would be refer to the ECS.
ekomega 10-20-05, 08:40 PM	I believe I am allowed to speculate about WotC's motives as much as anyone else without a bunch of people yelling and being insulting. Perhaps I'm a bit more pessimistic than some of you, but I think it's naive not to consider reality. None of you know what their plans are, no more than I do, so don't act like everyone is a saint until proven otherwise. That is foolish. BTW, DoveArrow, all the books you mentioned were published months ago. That's a long time with the production cycle of WotC. I think they're great books, but we're talking about NOW, not back then. Anyway, I was only speculating. No need to get so defensive and sensitive because I questioned that WotC might have ulterior motives. That's fanboy-ism to the core, and it doesn't belong here.
Brastan 10-20-05, 09:44 PM	So... back to the topic. As more people have had time to buy or look at MoE was it really that disappointing? When I view it by it's content I think it did it's job, more or less. Artificer class items, more dragon marked based items, new spells and infusions which expand playable content, and more setting based PrCs. It is not a DMs reference book like Sharn, Five Nations(kind of) and the Explores Handbook. This is in my opion the first player crunch expansion book for the setting. Although I'm an Eberron DM I'm not disappointed by this. I would rather my player’s draw character crunch from MoE than the Complete and Races books.
HarmonysTwilight 10-20-05, 10:23 PM	This book has one of the most potentially broken psionic items ever. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=521212 To which please read my last response there...
MysticTheurge 10-21-05, 08:09 AM	When I view it by it's content I think it did it's job, more or less. While I've only just gotten the book and had a small amount of time to read it over, I'm inclined to agree. I think the book sets out to further detail the eponymous Magic of Eberron, and I think it does a good job of doing that. I agree, that it's nice to finally see a book that has significant player-oriented content and a good amount of crunch. Explorer's Handbook and Five Nations (and even City of Towers) all fall short in this area. The OP's complaint seems to me to be that he (or she) didn't like which parts of the Magic of Eberron they chose to expand on, or how they chose to do it. This seems kind of like the people who go "Halflings shouldn't ride dinosaurs!" Certain continuity discrepancies aside (which are unfortunate, but have been addressed), development is free-reign in the hands of the authors and developers. If you don't like the way they did it, then either don't use it in your campaign or alter it so it fits for you. If you are unhappy with which parts of the setting they chose to develop, apply for a job at WotC.
Siran Dunmorgan 10-21-05, 12:07 PM	Certain continuity discrepancies aside (which are unfortunate, but have been addressed), development is free rein in the hands of the authors and developers. If you don't like the way they did it, then either don't use it in your campaign or alter it so it fits for you. I do. Much of my Eberron campaign—specifically, my implementation of Arcanix and the Arcane Congress—differs from canonical sources. The difference is that I and my players knew that it would be different when I started writing it: if I were running a Valenar campaign, I would have started with the assumptions about history and motivations detailed in the Eberron Campaign Setting and in the Dragonshards concerning the Valenar—which have been rendered invalid by this new, official material upon which future writings are expected to draw. If you are unhappy with which parts of the setting they chose to develop, apply for a job at WotC.Working on it. Do you have any idea how hard it is to actually get a job there? They're not hiring full-time people right now—that's why they're making so much use of freelancers like Hellcow and Medesha. It takes years of community involvement to get to a point where Paizo will even consider your articles for Dragon, and then more time, committment, et al. to get the attention of a contact at Wizards of the Coast who's willing to consider you as a writer—all while maintaining your marriage and your day job. The only person I personally know who was able to get his work more or less unsolicited into Dungeon, i.e., just calling up the editors and saying "I've got these adventures, are you interested?", did so on the basis of already having published two fantasy novels through Tor before making the call. Applying for a job at Wizards of the Coast is easy. Getting one is not. —Siran Dunmorgan Post Scriptum: The question of why continuity is important, and how it can be maintained, is addressed—in greater detail and with greater eloquence than I could bring to the topic—in Christopher Alexander's The Process of Creating Life, when he writes of structure-preserving transformations. His series The Nature of Order is highly recommended for anyone involved in creative endeavors: he specifically addresses architectural design, but the principles are applicable well beyond that discipline.
Sturm Jaeger 10-21-05, 12:13 PM	Well, that killed the sale. I might have bought the book if it wasn't for that bad news. So how is 16 pages worth of new spells and psionic powers weak? 45 spells and 10 psionic powers isn't enough?
lugnut71 10-21-05, 01:27 PM	Do you seriously believe that? :rolleyes: Their business plan is to get as much cash as possible within the smallest amount of time possible (isn't this the plan for all businesses?). It is obvious to see this in the consistency issues, the fact that the books have no indexes, lower page counts, and overally lower-quality material than the books beforehand. WotC isn't stupid (as you've suggested), they're simply stubborn. If they don't see major changes in the number of books that people are buying after the recent price increase, they will keep on producing the same low-quality stuff that they have been. To be honest, if I was in their position right now I'd be doing the exact same thing, wouldn't you? Keep in mind that the primary goal of a business is to make money, not to please its customers. Actually one of the requirements to make money is to please its customers. So that is a somewhat flawed statement. Now about consistency. I agree consistency is important but so are options. For instance everyone agrees that we want different stats for the Lord of Blades. Example one book shows as an artificer, another shows him as a bard (or what have you). This was generally one of the many things people talked about when Eberron came out. I think something similar to this would benifit the stories told different groups. For instance you have two possible stories for the elves. I would like a third story to appear in say a book with information about the Valnear. Now we have three stories but only one can be correct. Each individual DM can decide for his game. He still has a consistent element in his game with other games since each game might encompass all three stories but his game also becomes more unique because of it. Of course this is probably poorly explained but I rather think that is a clever way to do things.
davethebrave371 10-21-05, 02:42 PM	After reading this thread, and having browsed the book in the store, I have to say a couple things: 1. It doesn't have everything that I would have liked, but what it does have it quite good in terms of mechanics and crunch. Not enough, perhaps, but good quality in what it does have. 2. The fluff is not so great, but alterable. It leaves itself open for interpretation. For example, apparently most Brelish artificers (not all), have heard rumours of Merrix's secret forge. Say one out of the whole lot (what, like...1000 people maybe?) decides to be the conscientous citizen and go tell the Citadel, or even better, Deneith. Merrix is violating the Treaty, he'd say. Proof? Well...I've met Warforged who either don't remember their pasts, or were built recently. Can you prove it's the latter? ...no...but what about the Psiforged? Well, from what the Citadel/Deneith has heard (and according to MoE), the first ones came from the Mournlands. There's a rumour that the LoB has one up and running...we think it's more likely that it's him churning them out than Merrix. Even if Merrix was, he's probably hidden it. We can investigate, but it's just a rumour. No one actually KNOWS about it, or where it is, barring Merrix and possibly servants of his. Even the Warforged getting churned OUT of it don't know, except maybe some he might keep with him, none of which have escaped yet. Also, I should note that Merrix captured a Psiforged out of the Mournlands to replicate the process. He didn't even come up with it. I really don't see the problem with this particular fluff. Find me a fluff that's broken and I, as DM, can fix it. No problem. And still remain official, even! As I just did there! I don't mind broken fluff, unless it's HUGELY broken, which hasn't happened yet for Eberron. 3. The comment that the books without Keith onside are of worse quality? Absolutely true. This is not kissing up, it's a matter of fact. Who likes Five Nations or the Explorer's Handbook better than the ECS and Sharn? I haven't met one yet. And now this MoE controversy. My favourite books are, in order, Sharn, ECS, 5N, MoE, Explorer's. Of course, I'm biased. My campaign takes place in Sharn primarily, and I won't need the Explorer's Handbook for quite some time, unless the characters want to boogie on over to Argonessen, Sarlona or Aerenal anytime soon. So far, they've been pretty much between Breland and Xen'drik. Which means I'm HELLA PUMPED for the Xen'drik book coming out. 4. Anything, crunch or fluff, that you don't like? Don't use. I know people will say, "Then why buy the book?" My response: Exactly. Don't buy it, stop complaining about it. If you know what's best, do that. In your own game, create something. It takes me about 5 minutes to make a spell/power/magic or psionic item, and about another 5 to balance it properly, 10 if I decide to involve my players in the process, and make for a better balance. If you need something to fit something...make it! d20 is excellent for that. If you don't like the book, ok. Fine. Whine about it if you want, please, feel free. It's a free internet, last time I checked. If you want to heap bombastic praise all over the thing, do it. I don't mind. Whatever. All I know is that I buy a book, and if I don't like something, I omit it. Haven't had to omit anything in Eberron books yet. Don't plan on it, either.
MrFilthyIke 10-21-05, 04:53 PM	3. The comment that the books without Keith onside are of worse quality? Absolutely true. This is not kissing up, it's a matter of fact. Who likes Five Nations or the Explorer's Handbook better than the ECS and Sharn? I haven't met one yet. Well met Dave, I love the Explorers Handbook as much as the ECS and SCoT. Sorry to ruin your streak. :)
Atlictoatl 10-21-05, 10:43 PM	Now about consistency. I agree consistency is important but so are options. For instance everyone agrees that we want different stats for the Lord of Blades. Example one book shows as an artificer, another shows him as a bard (or what have you). This was generally one of the many things people talked about when Eberron came out. I think something similar to this would benifit the stories told different groups. For instance you have two possible stories for the elves. I would like a third story to appear in say a book with information about the Valnear. Now we have three stories but only one can be correct. Each individual DM can decide for his game. He still has a consistent element in his game with other games since each game might encompass all three stories but his game also becomes more unique because of it. Of course this is probably poorly explained but I rather think that is a clever way to do things.As I've said elsewhere about MoE, variant options is good. Instead of writing one origin story for the psiforged and spending as much wordcount justifying it as was done, give us five options and let us choose which one to run. Why make it canon, when the mystery of the origin of the psiforged *supports* the Eberron theme? As for the Lord of Blades, Keith stated early on that he hoped the LoB was never statted out officially, because that shouldn't be in a book -- it should be a DM's decision. It's not like we aren't going to change him around anyway -- I'm not going to let my players know exactly what a major NPC like that can do! So why waste the pagecount on statting him out, when we're only getting 160-page books these days? However, what you are advocating in your post, lugnut71, makes no sense. Don't spread these variants out over multiple books; if you're going to do give us options, do it in one book. Otherwise, anyone who hasn't bought every book doesn't have every option, and those who do have every book gets confused about which option is official (since data published in later books replaces that in earlier books).
davethebrave371 10-22-05, 12:26 AM	Well met Dave, I love the Explorers Handbook as much as the ECS and SCoT. Sorry to ruin your streak. :) Ok, 1 out of 20 if you count my friends, 1 out of over 50 if you count internet. But granted! :)
Edymnion 10-22-05, 12:31 AM	My Review on Magic of Eberron Actually, I thought this one was a very good book. As thing stands now, I would rank the books as follows: 1) ECS 2) Sharn: CoT 3) Magic of Eberron 4) Five Nations 5) Explorer's Handbook Races of Eberron isn't an Eberron line book, so I left it off this list. If you wanna count it for the sake of argument, it would be number 6.
polt 10-22-05, 04:30 AM	I liked Five Nations just as much as Sharn.
Mr. VanderMeer 10-22-05, 07:34 AM	The comment that the books without Keith onside are of worse quality? Absolutely true. This is not kissing up, it's a matter of fact. Who likes Five Nations or the Explorer's Handbook better than the ECS and Sharn? I haven't met one yet. And now this MoE controversy. My favourite books are, in order, Sharn, ECS, 5N, MoE, Explorer's. Of course, I'm biased. My campaign takes place in Sharn primarily, and I won't need the Explorer's Handbook for quite some time, unless the characters want to boogie on over to Argonessen, Sarlona or Aerenal anytime soon. So far, they've been pretty much between Breland and Xen'drik. Which means I'm HELLA PUMPED for the Xen'drik book coming out. Keith designed the core of this setting. From his posts in other threads I gather that he was not involved at all in the making of MoE, not even just to give approval or anything. I think that is a strange way to handle a setting. I am not sure how it works with other setting, does Ed get to look at all Forgotten Realms before it goes to press? My suggestion would be to at least include Keith as an advisor to all upcoming sourcebooks.
polt 10-22-05, 07:37 AM	But there is a lot of cool stuff in the ECS Keith didn't design, or at least only was part of. The Aerenal elves and the talenta halfling for example. He didn't make that.
Illvillainy 10-22-05, 08:08 AM	Ok, 1 out of 20 if you count my friends, 1 out of over 50 if you count internet. But granted! :) I prefer 5N, EH and MoE to S:CoT, even though the latter has less recognised inconsistencies.
darkness ninja of light 10-22-05, 10:27 AM	The Aerenal elves and the talenta halfling for example. He didn't make that. I can't remember where I heard this, but I'm pretty sure that Keith had the Aerenal in mind from the beginning. I'm not sure about the halflings.
MysticTheurge 10-22-05, 11:33 AM	I can't remember where I heard this, but I'm pretty sure that Keith had the Aerenal in mind from the beginning. They were there, but very different, as he discussed when addressing the Aeren inconsistancies in MoE.
davethebrave371 10-22-05, 12:59 PM	The count is up to 3 out of 22! I hadn't thought, Edymnion, of RoE. I would actually put that right after Sharn on my list, personally. Sharn is my favourite though, despite any inconsistencies. I wish they did more books that style.
MysticTheurge 10-22-05, 04:13 PM	I'm wondering if our appreciation of MoE vs. books like S:CoT or ExpHB are skewed because a lot of us are DMs. I can look at all the Eberron books produced so far and say, if I were a player (and a player only), none of them would be worth my money, up until Magic of Eberron. MoE is the first Eberron book since ECS to offer a significant amount of Crunch along with setting development for the DM (well, unless you consider RoE an Eberron book, I suppose that had a good amount of crunch.) Looking at the numbers: 5N: Five Prestige Classes, No Feats, Three Spells ExpHB: Three Prestige Classes, No Feats, One or Two Spells S:CoT: Three Prestige Classes, Five Feats, Three Spells MoE: Eight Prestige Classes, Thirty Feats, Forty-Five Spells and Ten Psionic Powers I think Eberron has desperately needed some more crunch to allow for development of distinctly Eberronian characters. Perhaps I'm just more willing to be forgiving of a few fluff-y errors (or more willing to ignore them) given the fact that this book finally provides Eberron with some decent crunch development. Would I like the to include indexes: yes. Would I like the to not make mistakes: yes. Would I like them to develop the things I want to see instead of what they want to: yes. But I have to say, this book is far from a "huge disappointment."
Mr. Wilson 10-23-05, 01:42 AM	I liked this book least of all the Eberron books so far. My bias is colored by a strong dislike of heavy crunch, which this book features. PrC's, new races, feats, grafts....blah. I did like some of the fluff provided, but not nearly enough to make me happy. I bought this book along with three Star Wars d20 books, and even though I'm not actively in a Star Wars campaign, but rather an Eberron game, I find myself reading the Star Wars books after a disappointing quick perusal of the Eberron book (and that's even considering the fact I despise most of the new Star Wars canon because of how badly it mauled the EU). Perhaps crunch happy players will enjoy, but I didn't.
Saurenda 10-23-05, 03:43 AM	3. The comment that the books without Keith onside are of worse quality? Absolutely true. This is not kissing up, it's a matter of fact. Who likes Five Nations or the Explorer's Handbook better than the ECS and Sharn? I haven't met one yet. And now this MoE controversy. My favourite books are, in order, Sharn, ECS, 5N, MoE, Explorer's. Of course, I'm biased. My campaign takes place in Sharn primarily, and I won't need the Explorer's Handbook for quite some time, unless the characters want to boogie on over to Argonessen, Sarlona or Aerenal anytime soon. So far, they've been pretty much between Breland and Xen'drik. I happen to like Explorer's Handbook, and Five Nations as much as Sharn City of Towers. Mainly because it provides alot of information about all the countries and backgrounds. As for ExpH? Rich Burlew is a decent writer and the book was well worth the information into exploration's importance, and justifying all these adventures in the name of exploration and discovery. Is my artificer enriched for knowing the Cyrian Tago? Hell yeah! Is he any better than before, or will it influence the Dm's plans any? Sadly no. What's more ExH is very simple to read and entertaining. Sharn CoT on the other hand was bogged down describing detailed information on a place that is primarly a pit stop to a better grounds for exploration and adventuring, Xen Drik. It's described very well for a single city and has a lot to offer, but it is still just one city. Your missing out on a world outside of it, something where adventurer's can easily make more money in a less controlled, and less confined space. From experience as much as the DM might like one place, players like to move around, and choose thier own settling places. Besides travel itself is a noir quality. As for MoE it provides much more to the other areas of development. Limiting and focusing a party to one area for the campagin is saying to me as a DM I'm not concerned with other places of prospective adventure in Eberron. The book was geared towards explination and allowing a character to expand on feats, knowledge, and variety of spells avilible. Will all of them be admissible for your campagin, is up to you. The fact is it's more Eberron. And that's a good thing.
Golbez57 10-23-05, 08:48 AM	Who likes Five Nations or the Explorer's Handbook better than the ECS and Sharn? I haven't met one yet. And now this MoE controversy. My favourite books are, in order, Sharn, ECS, 5N, MoE, Explorer's. Of course, I'm biased. My campaign takes place in Sharn primarily, and I won't need the Explorer's Handbook for quite some time, unless the characters want to boogie on over to Argonessen, Sarlona or Aerenal anytime soon. So far, they've been pretty much between Breland and Xen'drik. Which means I'm HELLA PUMPED for the Xen'drik book coming out. Right on, the Xen'drik sourcebook should be interesting, especially as I plan to take the heroes in our game there, too, and am going to be playing DDO. Like others, I've got different appreciations for the Eberron sourcebooks depending on a) how well they'll support our current game, b) my expectations of the sourcebook before it was released, and c) the extent to which the book met those expections. So, my current faves are: 1. Eberron Campaign Setting 2. Five Nations 3. Sharn: City of Towers 4. Magic of Eberron 5. Explorer's Handbook I'm liking Explorer's Handbook more now, though, as it seems to enhance the material in Magic of Eberron. However, as our campaign was/is geared towards much travel to exotic locales, it fell far short of my expectations of being able to thoroughly and accurately describe the climatic conditions and cultures of the other continents without worry of contradicting future materials. On the other hand, we have little use for S:CoT in our current games, but, man, did it deliver SO much more than I could have expected in a city sourcebook.
icedrake 10-23-05, 12:59 PM	When judging the Eberron books, I would exclude the CS. You really can't compare anything to it because it introduced the setting and is so full of great information. It stands in a league of its own and unfairly blows the other source books out of the water.
Uller999 10-23-05, 04:03 PM	okay so I bought the book today and have been reading it for the last four hours or so and it is great. The prestige classes (and man do I love prestige classes) are setting relevant and give mechanics for things I was already trying to do anyway (Renegade master maker :D ) and the fluff stuff is quite useful. One character in my party was houding me for an explanation of how elemental binding works and now he has an answer, and one that I don't have to explain but is in nice, shiny, print. Yeah the book could have more infromation, but it introduces a number of new groups to Eberron like the Red Watchers, The Vigilant Sentinels of Aernal, and the Power of Purity organization. All of these groups will yield great character background and can be used to add more intrigue into my game. Thank god they got some crunch down for the Dragon Prophecy. And those dragon-marked rods are something I was already trying to work out and now, don't have to. So like anything the book could have been better but it was well worth my money and I'm please with my purchas.
Edymnion 10-23-05, 04:17 PM	Sharn CoT on the other hand was bogged down describing detailed information on a place that is primarly a pit stop to a better grounds for exploration and adventuring, Xen Drik. It's described very well for a single city and has a lot to offer, but it is still just one city.Um, not really. Sharn is so big as to be a mini-campaign setting in it's own right. I have seen several games set entirely in Sharn that have gone quite well.
polt 10-23-05, 04:21 PM	Man you could play for YEARS and never leave sharn.
Majorafire77 10-23-05, 04:41 PM	Actually one of the requirements to make money is to please its customers. So that is a somewhat flawed statement. The primary goal of a business is to make money. If it takes pleasing customers to do that, then so be it. Now about consistency. I agree consistency is important but so are options. For instance everyone agrees that we want different stats for the Lord of Blades. Example one book shows as an artificer, another shows him as a bard (or what have you). This was generally one of the many things people talked about when Eberron came out. I think something similar to this would benifit the stories told different groups. For instance you have two possible stories for the elves. I would like a third story to appear in say a book with information about the Valnear. Now we have three stories but only one can be correct. Each individual DM can decide for his game. He still has a consistent element in his game with other games since each game might encompass all three stories but his game also becomes more unique because of it. Of course this is probably poorly explained but I rather think that is a clever way to do things. But some things are intentionally put in canon sources as options for the DM while others were never meant there in the first place and are unintentionally inconsistant with another core source. The authors of sources intentionally put in different stat blocks for the LoB, but I'm sure that if the author of the Crying Fields entry in Five Nations didn't mean to not mention the fact that there's not one, but multiple moons orbiting Eberron. Your example with the elves is kind of the same way. If I'm making an elven character for Eberron, I shouldn't have to choose between options A, B, or C for elven culture in Valenar, there should be a standard. I should be able to make an elven character who works in any Eberron campaign. I hope you understand what I mean. As for Explorer's Handbook, it was filled with quality information that was useless. It provided pretty good information, but there were only a few areas in there that the DMs could make use of many times over the course of a campaign. I think that the Cataclysm Mage is pretty cool and different from the standard PrC, but I felt that the Thunder Guide was a bit limited in scope (I really hope that they add additional features to the PrC as we get more information regarding the different cultures and peoples of the Thunder Sea and areas around it). The Windwright Captain is cool, but I'm not sure how I'm supposed to incorporate it into a campaign.
MysticTheurge 10-23-05, 11:38 PM	As for Explorer's Handbook, it was filled with quality information that was useless. I strongly disagree with this statement. I've already made use of Glitterdust Nightclub, plan to use both of the Giant Ruins in Xen'drik presented, might use the Shalquar Monastery and Ashtakala. If I wanted to, I could probably work a whole bunch more of the locations into my campaign. Explorer's Handbook is a good resource for DMs who just need a little bit of inspiration to spin out a great campaign. Also, the information presented on travel as well as the maps for Docking Towers and Lightning Rail Stations are pretty universally usable.
stembolt 10-23-05, 11:55 PM	I strongly disagree with this statement. I've already made use of Glitterdust Nightclub, plan to use both of the Giant Ruins in Xen'drik presented, might use the Shalquar Monastery and Ashtakala. If I wanted to, I could probably work a whole bunch more of the locations into my campaign. Explorer's Handbook is a good resource for DMs who just need a little bit of inspiration to spin out a great campaign. Also, the information presented on travel as well as the maps for Docking Towers and Lightning Rail Stations are pretty universally usable. I have to agree with MT. If I had to pick the most useful all around book the Explorers handbook would be high on that list.
lugnut71 10-24-05, 12:23 AM	I acutally find the after the ECS the Explorer's Handbook is also my favorite, I think. I'm not certain though. I also agree with the sentiment that MOE is more of a player's book than a DM's book. Will I as a DM use it how the heck would I know. Before tonight I didn't know I would be using the arena in Greywall until I mentioned it in passing. All of a sudden I had two people wanting to fight in it.
Mr. Wilson 10-24-05, 02:10 AM	I'd have to agree with the above posts that the XHB provided great information for Eberron, mainly because it was mostly fluff. If I had my way, most of the books would look like the a cross of the Volo's Guides from FR and more traditional setting sourcebooks. Chock full of fluff with little crunch to get in the way.
ENHenry 10-24-05, 09:23 AM	...For example, apparently most Brelish artificers (not all), have heard rumours of Merrix's secret forge....I really don't see the problem with this particular fluff. Find me a fluff that's broken and I, as DM, can fix it. No problem. What's more, who's to say Merrix's Forge hasn't been voluntarily opened for inspection half a dozen times in the past few years? Merrix, crafty and rich bastard that he is, has the thing either: (A) hidden in a subbasement in the Forgehold behind a web of illusions that would fool Titivilus himself, (B) has the thing dissassembled and innocuously crated before any inspections, (C) has the thing LOOKING just enough like it's broken, and has hidden away the pattern and schema need for its activation. Can't be used without those, right? :)