Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Psifon 03-25-06, 05:30 PM	In the eberrron setting, NPC classes like magewrights, and PC classes like the Artificer have gone a long way toward explaining how magic might directly effect a society. And that's all good. I think that the Eberron setting falls short on this concept a bit though. Specifically, the setting doesn't explore how magic-tec would indirectly effect a society. Consider this: You are a noble, you own a mannor or three, and it has been a bumpter crop year for you. as a result, you have 5000 gp in your budget to re-invest. Do you: A) Purchase a shinny new +1 Sword and a new set of +1 platemale? B) Hire a druid to cast "plant growth" on your fields to promote next years' crops, thus insuring another bumper year? C) Hire an artificer to create an elemental-powered "waterwheel" that will pump water into your fields so that you never have to worry about drought again? Now, if your like me, and you say that the answer is "C" then one has to ask: Why is it, that in a magic-tec sophisticated society like Ebberon (I mean they have flying ships and a magical trains), why is it that none of this magical technology has found it's way to the manufacturing sector? And if it HAS found it's way into the manufacturing sector, then the society would have a much larger and more powerful patrician class. The continent would also be more densly populated, and less fecund races (like elves) would be far more marginalized than they are. Now I suppose that the last war could have put the breaks on such societal advancements, but if this is the case, and if the setting is really as late-renissance as it feels and looks, then Khorvare is on the brink of a huge social transformation including massive industrialization (powered by magic), as well as a significant population growth. This transformation is bound to result in significant social upheaval. Just a few ramblings.
DMDaddy 03-25-06, 05:52 PM	Now I suppose that the last war could have put the breaks on such societal advancements, but if this is the case, and if the setting is really as late-renissance as it feels and looks, then Khorvare is on the brink of a huge social transformation including massive industrialization (powered by magic), as well as a significant population growth. This transformation is bound to result in significant social upheaval. Just a few ramblings. I completely agree. This is the idea I get after reading ECS and the Sharn book. It is also the logical step for any society. Our own history reflects this idea. My personal idea is that the low class will gain more rights and money, maybe riots. The only thing that counters this is that many groups are fighting to gain power. The ones with the most power will profit the best from societies advancements. It may be that house Cannith already has some Shema plans for magic powered water wheels and other niftty inovations. But, Merrix de' Cannith (LE) is guarding many of these secrets for some unknown reason. Nevertheless, such a change in a society on the edge of great magic inovations could take around 100 years. This doesn't give alot of time for the campaign.
stembolt 03-25-06, 06:25 PM	The most common mistake to make about Eberron is the prevalence of Magi-tech (magi tech defined as using magical technology to replace modern technology). Eberron does not have a prevalence of magic-tech, it has a prevalence of magic. Also the example contains a number of errors. For example the assumption that a magic water wheel will negate any droughts. We have modern water pumps and underground wells yet we have droughts all the time irl. In Eberron the farmer will typically do none of the above. Farming is not going to yield you inordinately high profits. Likely on a good year you would put a little away and go on a nice vacation after you paid your yearly costs including incidentals. Also all the high yield farmers are all members of house Lyrander and they summon rain to water crops. In fact in the sharn book the make the point that food is cheap and plentiful. This bounty does not necessarily bolster the nobility; it mostly bolsters the merchants and artisans.
demonic_dante 03-25-06, 06:33 PM	While your arguments are very correct, they have one flaw. There are very few high level characters in Eberron. The elemental waterwheel in your example would cost more than a simple 5000 gp and is not a viable expendature. It is true that magic is everywhere in Eberron but it is weak magic. Yes flying ships exist but they shouldnt be treated like cars, few people own one (and fewer still have one for personal use). Eberron is simply not at a stage where it can begin producing this in such a large capacity where commoners will have many magic devices. You are however very correct about the population growth though (if the baby boom has taught us anything). This increase in population could very well lead to many technological creations (whether invented by the new population, invented to cater to the new generation, or invented to care for them). If Eberron is to be seen in the future, one could predict that many advances would occur, as a result as a greater number of gifted children (pc class ready people) resulting in a greater number of artificiers (if i spelled that wrong I appoligize). In my opinion you have misinterpreted the addition of the magewright and the artificier(in particular) by thinking that high level magic is available. Magewrights only learn one or two cantrips to aid in their craft (nothing that will create anything new) and artificiers are rare (and even then they are rarely of enough skill to produce something revolutionary). This is just my opinion and I may be wrong, but the campaign makes sense that way so I like to think I'm right. the ramblings of Demonic_dante
aelryinth 03-25-06, 09:40 PM	Also keep in mind that making magic items takes xp. YOu can't mass manufacture magic items like you can tech...it all takes xp, and magewrights don't have xp pools. Secondly, magic is expensive. Low level characters will never be able to afford magic in an Eberron campaign...the simplest magical sword takes more gold then most will see in their whole lives. Any magical advances will have to be done by the wealthy giving generously back to their constituents...and in a land so focused on innovation for the sake of war and combat, that is not likely in Eberron recently. If all the money and lives spent on the last war had been spent instead on raising the common weal, then we have more widespread magical engines benefitting commoners, instead of gaudy airships, floating magical academies, and flying fortresses that are useless outside battle. Also, keep in mind that its generally not good business to get rid of your own market by making magic items for gold and xp instead of casting spells just for gold. The Dragonmark houses use magic that enhances their marks...not that replaces them. Any spellcaster would be silly to make magic items that get rid of the need for them...spells are 'free' for them to cast, items take xp. ==Aelryinth
Annaylli 03-26-06, 12:11 PM	Unscrupulous Artificers make a habit of salvaging your magical contraptions to fuel their XP reserves. If it's valuable it needs to be guarded.
Alratan 03-26-06, 12:32 PM	Also keep in mind that making magic items takes xp. YOu can't mass manufacture magic items like you can tech...it all takes xp, and magewrights don't have xp pools. As there is also a thread about the BoVD active on the forums, how about this as an idea for a soloution for this. As I remember, Distill Pain is 3rd level spell, so it can be put in an eternal wand. There are various low level means of keeping people in continous pain. How about this approach then, building of themes of exploitation and the evils of industrialisation. To creates these magical items, workshops of fabricate and the like, the desperate poor are paid a pittance in return for enduring days of non-fatal torture, with their agony extracted from them to serve as the xp cost of magical items. This nicely parrallels the Ludditte fear of machines. A workshop of fabricate 1/day makes hundreds of unskilled labourers redundant, leaving them vulnerable to exploitation of the worst kind by unscrupulous businessmen, using their suffering as fuel to impoverish others of their class. Then, your PCs can be the ones stnding in the way of progress - after all, the destitute are literally queing up, voluntering to be tortured to feed their families. And best of all, no supernatural nasties involved, just good old human (or perhaps gnomish, for some good old racist backlash) greed.
Psifon 03-26-06, 01:07 PM	Perhapse my example of a "magic waterwheel" is not adequately diveloped. Look at it this way. If a sector of the population has enough skill and resources to make a ship that can fly or a magical train (granted that this is a VERY small sector of the population, including governments and international buisinesses, like the dragonhouses), then it stands to reason that a simpler task, like making a wheel that can turn forever, say by binding a handfull of lesser earth elementals to turn turn a crank, would be available to a much larger (but still very small) segment of the population. Now if you have a wheel that is being turned by magic, why can't you then design, oh, say a water pump with pipes or a conveyor belt attached to that wheel, which allows you to move items (like water, ore, or agricultural products) around. What if you were to put a cauldron at the end of this mechanism that had a fire elemental bound to it. This cauldron could easily be used to smelt the iron, or boil the water. You can see where this is going. Magic gives you an endless supply of energy. Even low-level magic can be used to power machines that are thousands of years old in our world, things like water pumps, steam engines, and smelting furnaces. These are NOT minor innovations. These are things that have transformed our society forever, and they have been stepping stones that lead directly to the modern industrial age. You don't need a large sector of the population doing this sort of thing to transform society completly. Attaching an earth elemental to a waterwheel can move water from a river, and allow for huge increase in food production (with or without droughts or famine). More food means more people. People are made out of food to state the obvious. Further, more crop yeild per achre means more people have time on their hands to produce other things besides food. In our own world the single biggest innovation that contributed to our industrial revolution was the heavy plow, because of it's ability to allow us to cultivate land to greater crop yeilds. Now suppose a Mannor Lord paid for this divelopment on his mannor. He is not doing this out of social altruism. He is doing this because the more food he can produce the more money he can make. It is a buisiness investment pure and simple. I am not talking about a farmer here, I am talking about a landed noble who's job it is to organize the peasants and craftsmen of his community to increase his own personal wealth, and to provide taxes and military personnelle to the king. I am talking about a knight a duke or a baron here. Now supposing our nobleman did this on his lands. He would quickly outproduce his neighbors in whatever commodity he was making, be it food, smelted iron, textiles or whatever. So now he either has the military and financial might to take over their lands, or they have to come up with their own innovations out of simple competition. Sound familiar? It should, this sort of buisiness competition is not simply a mechanism in capatalistic societies, it has been going on for thousands of years. So now, from the top down, these innovations spread, either by expansion of the society that develops them, or by simple transmission of information and ideas (another real-world phenomena). Annaylli, I think you are making the best counterargument of the group. That said, there is no reason that such contraptions could not be guarded, or eaven built inside the mannor's compound. Modern factories are built indoors with security systems for this very reason. Gaurding the millhouse is hardly a new phenomena either. aelryinth, I'm not talking about low-level people. I am talking about nobles. Anyone who can hire a powerful adventuring party to slay the local tribe of trolls can certainly afford to hire a artificer, wizard or magewright to make a wheel turn forever. demonic_dante. I am not talking about everyone having a flying ship in their garage. I am talking about a community (through the auspices of it's noblemen), using it's financial power to create public works that enrich the whole community (but especially it's noblemen). Also the example contains a number of errors. For example the assumption that a magic water wheel will negate any droughts. We have modern water pumps and underground wells yet we have droughts all the time irl. I am simply not being specific enough. It has always been the intention that agricultural innovations protect against drought and famine. In fact, the result of most agricultural innovations have simply lead to larger population (grow more food and you grow more people), which actually results in WORSE drought and famine - what defines these phenomena is that there is not enough food and water to go around. This means people die. More people, more death. The fact remains that once you begin growing food to support a larger population (instead of hunting and gathering), your society becomes dependant on agriculture, which results in more people, which results in more agriculture. This is exactly what has happend here on earth, and it is why we have 12 billion people on the planet today. Any society SOCIALLY advanced enough to CREATE mass transportaion (like the lightning rail) or flight, would ALREADY have these innovations in place. It is not an accident that the Wright brothers worked in a bicicle shop. Og the caveman didn't invent filight because he didn't have the cultural milue and time on his hands that the Wright brothers did, not because he was necissarily less intelligent than the Wright brothers. For a society to have a large enough leisure class to invent a lightning rail, and a large enough production capacity to make a lightning rail worth inventing (much less implementing) the problems of GREATLY increased food and commodity production have to already be solved. Otherwise, everyone is working on problems like how to build an aquaduct or how to pave a road. It's as simple as that. The lighning rail and the flying ships are an anacronism in Eberron, because while they are cool and sexy from a campaign world point of view, INDUSTRIAL (including agricultural) magic-tec MUST occure FIRST in order for any society to make the effort to create such things. Now maybe these things do exist (Sharn is described as an industrial center), but next time you write an eberron adventrue, don't set it in a crypt or a castle. Set it in a factory.
Turkforged 03-26-06, 01:28 PM	Well, you're right about that.. Eberron is detailed, much more detailed and logical. But, well... This is an weak point (which you have uncovered and Wizards who lives by the coast ;) ;) is not pleassseeddd....)
DoveArrow 03-26-06, 03:09 PM	Just before the ECS came out, I had some similar ideas about this very subject that were based around the decanter of endless water. Essentially, they idea revolved around using your basic decanter of endless water to turn a water wheel, propel a ship, irrigate crops, and more. Sure, it's a bit more expensive than the 5,000 gp that the poster suggested, but heck, you get a large enough community to pool their resources, or a very wealthy landowner to invest some money into such a project, and you've basically revolutionized the farming and manufacturing industries. It'd do for a fantasy campaign setting what steam power was able to do for us. Something to think about.
Belabras 03-26-06, 03:27 PM	Just before the ECS came out, I had some similar ideas about this very subject that were based around the decanter of endless water. Essentially, they idea revolved around using your basic decanter of endless water to turn a water wheel, propel a ship, irrigate crops, and more. Sure, it's a bit more expensive than the 5,000 gp that the poster suggested, but heck, you get a large enough community to pool their resources, or a very wealthy landowner to invest some money into such a project, and you've basically revolutionized the farming and manufacturing industries. It'd do for a fantasy campaign setting what steam power was able to do for us. Something to think about. Do that enough and the oceans are going to start rising.
ArcTan 03-26-06, 04:01 PM	Do that enough and the oceans are going to start rising. You assume that the decanter actually creates water from nothingness instead of magically transporting water from elsewhere in the world. The latter is something I find more logical, anyway. It makes absolutely no difference for using the item in a campaign, but it's an important thing to think about if you imagine such things being used by whole civilizations.
ArcTan 03-26-06, 04:15 PM	As far as the topic of this thread is concerned, I'm only an undergrad history major and don't have nearly enough background to say how advanced Eberron would "have to" be in order to have a Lightning Rail or similar innovations, though I would caution against assuming that everything has to develop the same way it developed in our world or it can't happen. Remember that in Eberron there do exist enormous cabals that keep as tight a monopoly on magic-tech as they can -- the Dragonmarked Houses -- and they do seem purposely willing to restrict what's available to the masses in order to maintain their own wealth and power. That's precisely why in those regions where the Houses have chosen not to exert their influence I would imagine development to be several steps backward from the center of the Houses' power. Think of what it's like in underdeveloped nations with a few enclaves of superrich influence wielded by a couple plutocrats. There may well be things like magically run factories or agricultural plantations in various places, but that doesn't mean your average low-class peon in Khorvaire has direct access to such things, any more than they have access to the Lightning Rail. Finally, I do think the argument about the Last War has merit. The Last War did a lot to hasten some technological innovations but it also did a lot to retard progress, thanks to the sheer political dislocation and consumption of resources a war entails. This really is meant to be the fantasy equivalent of something as destructive as the Hundred Years' War in Europe. I think it is within the realm of possibility that we're meant to think of Khorvaire as on the cusp of a Renaissance that's about to occur after the Dark Ages engendered by the Last War, and that this Renaissance may shove Khorvaire hard in the direction of what we think of as a modern industrialized society. We're moving forward in time in this setting, and the situation presented in the campaign setting's "present" is precisely designed to put adventurers in a moment of great historical uncertainty and change, with a lot of potential for new and exciting things to happen. There's things that imply this -- elemental binding absolutely is supposed to be a step toward automation in industry, but it's a *new technology* that the Zilargo gnomes only stole from the drow recently and that they're only slowly developing new uses for. Breland is only by steps pushing toward liberal political institutions and a true free-market entrepreneur-driven economy. Cannith's artificers are only by degrees reaching the point where magical spells can be reliably incorporated into constructs, magic items and so on and usable as universally as technology can in our world. And so on. For that matter, I have a hard time imagining Riedra's totalitarian society without a much more modern way of producing and distributing goods than Khorvaire has. (Totalitarianism is a modern phenomenon fueled by modernity, after all.) Perhaps using psionics rather than magic, with the various flavor differences that that entails, but absolutely yes, I do think the Inspired are so inspiring to your average citizen of the Five Nations precisely because they come from a country with things like modern medicine, scientific agriculture, and so on. The average citizen isn't all that well off, but that's politics, not economics or technology -- they come from the 20th-century Soviet Union rather than the 20th-century United States. Anyway, I can easily imagine creating a homebrew setting that pushes Eberron 50 years into the future and into a true Industrial Revolution, with all the upheaval that that entails, but for various reasons Keith Baker's probably not going to make it. No reason you can't, though.
Romulus LoneWolf 03-26-06, 06:16 PM	In the eberrron setting, NPC classes like magewrights, and PC classes like the Artificer have gone a long way toward explaining how magic might directly effect a society. And that's all good. I think that the Eberron setting falls short on this concept a bit though. Specifically, the setting doesn't explore how magic-tec would indirectly effect a society. Consider this: You are a noble, you own a mannor or three, and it has been a bumpter crop year for you. as a result, you have 5000 gp in your budget to re-invest. Do you: A) Purchase a shinny new +1 Sword and a new set of +1 platemale? B) Hire a druid to cast "plant growth" on your fields to promote next years' crops, thus insuring another bumper year? C) Hire an artificer to create an elemental-powered "waterwheel" that will pump water into your fields so that you never have to worry about drought again? Now, if your like me, and you say that the answer is "C" then one has to ask: Well, I'd ask "Why did House Lyrandar allow a "waterwheel" to get created in the first place, as it would dig into their "make sure the weather's good for crops" business. Don't forget that in Eberron, the magic business is run by all of the Dragonmarked Houses, and they won't stand for competition.
il Kav 03-26-06, 07:26 PM	Why magic-tech isn't so widespread? I suppose because to make very powerful (and useful) magic items you need an elemental (flying ship, lightin' rail..) and the Zilfolk are monopolysts. In my campaign, we see Khorvaire like post WW1 Europe. No real winner, many deaths, good inovations in the art of war, but not so much in the general technology. But now there's the peace, and the good-willed people will make an enormous leap to a better tomorrow... or a new, more deadly war...
stembolt 03-26-06, 07:54 PM	Psifon, Firstly, elemental binding is a recent innovation tightly control by conservative elements mostly concerned with maintaining the status quo. Second, by its nature most other magic must be operated by a magewright (artificer, sorcerer or wizard), by a dragonmarked heir or in a special zone. Given that situation magic cannot be ubiquitous. Besides Eberron is doing a number of modern things. Breeding magically superior horses, the crops are selectively breed, magic is used to back up the natural irrigation. The crops are definitely sufficient to feed the cities. In fact more crops would simply depress the market. So they need to concentrate on luxury food. Now maybe these things do exist (Sharn is described as an industrial center), but next time you write an eberron adventrue, don't set it in a crypt or a castle. Set it in a factory. Just because you’re not doesn’t mean others aren’t either. Of the published adventures one is set in a foundry in sharn. The other big issue is that you keep comparing Eberron to our world. You cannot do that. You need to examine them on the merits of their own world.
Flame_Drake 03-26-06, 09:48 PM	One should also not that it is heavily implied in the setting that several of Zil and House Cannith's 'innovations' were actually canibalized from the ruins of the drow and giant binders in Xen'drik. It is very likely that this allowed them to bipass several industrial steps that were nessicary on earth before the advent of technology analogous to airships and the lightning rail. Also, as stembolt noted, we cannot compare Eberron and good old Terra. Magic alone would be enough to screw up the formula enough to prevent parralel histories. Drake
BoneLord_of_Skullthrone 03-26-06, 10:22 PM	Well, I'd ask "Why did House Lyrandar allow a "waterwheel" to get created in the first place, as it would dig into their "make sure the weather's good for crops" business. Don't forget that in Eberron, the magic business is run by all of the Dragonmarked Houses, and they won't stand for competition.Plot hook! :plotting:
Psifon 03-27-06, 01:42 AM	Firstly, elemental binding is a recent innovation tightly control by conservative elements mostly concerned with maintaining the status quo. First off, if you look at the descriptions of elemental binding, this "technology" binds the elemental to power lines througout the structure of the vessel so that the vessel effectively becomes the creature's "body." This is a very cool and (one would suppose) pretty advanced concept. I am not talking about anything so elaborate. I am talking about using lesser planar binding and craft wonderous item to create a circle on the ground that permanently binds an earth elemental to the sight and forces it to turn a crank on a permanent basis. For that matter, you don't need to bind an elemental. The energy output from a wall of fire that has been made permanent through a permanency spell would be enough to wreck any standard mideaval economy. All I'm saying is that if you have magic-tec for things like flying ships and trains, then you also need to have it for more basic social institutions like production and manufacturing. An industrial loom to weave textiles, a steem-powered grain mill, and baker's oven etc. etc. All of these become possible because of the energy output of magic. If the gnomes of Zilagro and the artificers of house Cannith are innovative enough to come up with flying ships, then they surley would come up with other inovations. Where are they? There is NO discription AT ALL of any technology other than these modes of transportation. Let me ask you another question. If Sharn has all these huge skyscrpers, and a floating island high above it's skyline, how do they get water and sewer services up to the highest buildings? How is it that that city is not choked in it's own feces, and dying of thirst? They can maintain regular rainfall over the thing I suppose, using weather control magic (not hard to do in the tropical climate of that city I guess), but it would still take a HECK of a lot of annual rainfall to support a population that size. Not only that, but if you ARE using weather magic to provide water, then that weather magic becomes THE MAJOR POWER CENTER of the city. Yet no mention of this is made anywhere in the Sharn hardcover. So what is the answer? What else can it be? Other forms of magic! Bound water mephits or water elementals, and other magical water sorces that create fountains on the tops of the buildings. These would then flow down the buildings as public fountains and sewage systems. How else could you do this? Pumps? If they have these kinds of pumps then the culture's technology level is quite a bit higher than the Romans and probably even higher than pre-industrial Europe. I mean those towers are like modern skyscrapers for cripes' sake. And if they do have pumps what is their power source? I suppose that you could use the lava flows benieth the city, and/or manual labor, but then you still are relying on some pretty good technology to manage that major (and presumably reliable) feat of engineering. Magic seems like a much more likely answer. Further, creating multiple smaller water sources distributes the controll of this precious resourse throughout the city, ensuring that no single group controlls it's availability. This would account for the "invisible" nature of water-politics. It is simply handled by the city magewright guild on a case-by-case basis, and water sources are put in place as customers can afford them. Otherwise you get the "downflow" of the higher levels to work with. These permanent water sources become a fixture of the building they are in, and if they are damaged or destroyed it is a major economic event for that building. They would certainly be protected in better neigborhoods, or they may just be made inexcessable through building design, and multiple, semi-redundant fountains may exist in one building. So here is a case where in order for the postulated "city of towers" to exist, Magic-tec MUST be common enough for the community to have regular access to it. Otherwise the politics of water would not be taken for granted as they so clearly are in the Sharn hardcover. No, I think that you can rationalize it any way you want. In order for Eberron to exist as it does, there must be much more industrial magic-tech lurking in the background of that culture. I for one would like to see much more attention paid to this idea so that I as a DM can weave it into my campaign world. I think that rural areas probably look much like a standard medeaval fantacy environment, with a few magic-tec innovations here and there (a powered water pump or flower mill for example), but once you get into the "industrial centers" there should be all kinds of wierd stuff going on. Nothing that directly uses magic to create the end product, no "magic textile coloring device" to make printed bolts of cloth or anything like that. More like a magic glass factory that uses a bound fire elemental to melt the glass and keep it liquid as you work with it. This would be an interesting backdrop and also an interesting combat environment, as the PC's end up fighting amongst huge rollers that press the molten glass out into large sheets, ducking in and out of fast moving machine parts. That sort of thing.
Flame_Drake 03-27-06, 02:02 AM	Yet no mention of this is made anywhere in the Sharn hardcover. So what is the answer? The short form? What ever you want it to be. Yes water politics would be an issue, as would the production of the towers and the sewers and yadda yadda yadda (that wasn't ment to be offencive by the way, just saying that there are lots of examples), but you really have to ask yourself "Does this add to my day to day adventure?" The fact of the matter is that most people likely don't care to think about these issues because they are so immeresed in their games. That's not to say that noone cares, as everyone who's posted here clearly does, but its not just that huge of an issue. Additionally, and I may be going out on a limb here, most people who play D&D tend to be smart and well-read, in some form. This means that general, people will fill in that blank with their own answer. Given this, would you fill a few pages of an already limited page count to explain an issue that a) people won't care about and b) can come up with their own answer for? None of this is ment to undermine the importence of the issue if you look at the huge picture, but for the day to day adventurer the words "out of sight, out of mind" spring forwards. Drake
Just another user 03-27-06, 02:07 AM	Psifon: the problem is that you assume that the people in Korvhaine have the knowledge to do that. Just because something is in the PHB/DMG it doesn't mean that people in Korvhaine know how to make it/cast it. Dragonmarked houses make items that need their dragonmarks to work, maybe it is not just because they want to keep their monopoly, maybe it is because they don't know how to make them in a way for everyone to use them. Yeah, wizards know how to bind elementals to create airship and lightining rail and other things but what if all they are doing is following the istructions they found in Xen'drik, but they were not still able to reverse-engineer it to create anything else, like a elemental powered waterwheel?
stembolt 03-27-06, 02:08 AM	Sharn can exist mostly because it is in a zone that is coterminous with one of the planes. It has unusual magic influence. Also the key you are missing is the expense. They can make an elemental vessel that is like a car or a water pump, but the expense is as great as a much bigger vessel and it must be operated by a DM heir. Sharn has lifts for moving goods, that it can support the expense of due to volume, but other ports cannot. All of this technology exists, it is just impractical to use. Like using a golem to plow fields. I am talking about using lesser planar binding and craft wonderous item to create a circle on the ground that permanently binds an earth elemental to the sight and forces it to turn a crank on a permanent basis. First, incredibly expensive. Second, low power output. If such a thing would work you would see a person or a horse working the pump. They would do so at such a fraction of the cost it would make no sense to replace them. (there are/were situations in real life where this happens/happened but those applications were very specific.) Nothing that directly uses magic to create the end product, no "magic textile coloring device" to make printed bolts of cloth or anything like that. More like a magic glass factory that uses a bound fire elemental to melt the glass and keep it liquid as you work with it. This would be an interesting backdrop and also an interesting combat environment, as the PC's end up fighting amongst huge rollers that press the molten glass out into large sheets, ducking in and out of fast moving machine parts. That sort of thing. What do you want to hear? Yes that sort of thing exists (little lighter on the bound elementals part). Is your problem that little of that is explicitly detailed and statted?
dang 03-27-06, 03:43 AM	i think a few points need to be made: 1) how do we know magic waterwheels don't exist? i don't remember reading anything in the ECS of PGtE that specifically disclaims them. 2) if they did exist, it doesn't mean everyone's rich, it means people might just have more free time. <cough>france<cough> 3) with monopolies in place, it's certainly possible to have huge disparity between haves and have-nots, like the industry and lumber barons during the industrial revolution in the U.S. think of the vanderbilts, and the rockefellers. then compare them to all the dirt-poor children working farms and factories across the country. 4) who needs water? as we've all noted, there's LOTS of free space in Khorvaire... why build a magic waterwheel when you can build a regular one for a fraction of the cost? the world map doesn't show streams or wind patterns that would aid in milling. in closing, it's a fictional fantasy setting, and i'd be shocked if the creators had worked so thoroughly that everything made complete sense.
darkthought 03-27-06, 10:46 AM	Why are we even arguing about water pumps in the first place? Magic makes it a moot point. In Sharn, the fountains in the upper towers and skyway are a modified Decanter of Endless Water. Water is CHEAP. There's a 0-level cleric spell "Create Water." I'd think that sometime in Sharn's past a civic engineer figured out that many many diseases can be prevented and unrest quelled by having a source of clean water for everyone. Thus in various places around the city, there's a Wonderous Item using the Create Water spell. In one of the published adventures, I think Shadows of the Last War, there was a magical clothes washer using Prestigitation, Unseen Servant, and I think Create Water. At one point in Khorvaire's history, there were high level people. The Last War changed that, now they're all dead. Magic requires us to think outside the box, and that box is all the modern engineering and knowledge we have. The dragonmarks alone completely change the shape of the box. In our industrial revolution we changed the processes to get the wanted items. Keith had once said that we don't change the process, we change the people. That's what the magecraft spell does. There once was a thread about what would happen if a magewright were to be transplanted into Forgotten Realms. The consensus was that the magewright could use all the same equipment, be the same level (NPC class), have the same resources, but could still out compete the FR natives and drive them out of business. That +4 on any craft skill means they can produce higher quality items faster than anybody else. The Magecraft spell is a wonderful thing.
DoveArrow 03-27-06, 12:57 PM	The Last War did a lot to hasten some technological innovations but it also did a lot to retard progress, thanks to the sheer political dislocation and consumption of resources a war entails. I think this is an excellent point. With the exception of the lightning rail and the everbright lanterns, most of the magical technology that you see in Sharn has been birthed from war. Meanwhile, the lightning rail was a government project that was built during a time when the nations were part of a single empire, and so the resources to build it were immense. That Khorvaire hasn't seen a government project like it since makes sense. It's certainly better than the explanation I came up with to justify the discrepancy, which amounts basically to the fact that in a game of swashbuckling advnenture, magical farming equipment just isn't as exciting as an airship ringed in flames.
okaynowa 03-27-06, 01:37 PM	DoveArrow made the excellent point that:... the lightning rail was a government project that was built during a time when the nations were part of a single empire, and so the resources to build it were immense.The Pyramids of Giza, the Mausoleum, the Hanging Gardens, the Taj Mahal, and to some extent the space race of the 20th century: all vanity projects. It may be helpful to view setting elements like the lightning rail and the floating fortress as similarly wondrous artifacts, rather than advancements.
Joni-san 03-27-06, 02:48 PM	Another thing about the Lightning Rail and 'magi-tech': In essence the LR is just a big Flying Carpet in the form of metal boxes (to protect goods) and thus not a very big leap of innovation. Just because the LR exists it does not mean that Khorvaire has undergone the cultural steps needed for an industrial revolution, especially when one considers the expensive nature of magic. Or to give another example, China had gunpowder for a long time but it didn't turn it to weaponry at the flick of a wrist. As for Decanter of Endless Water steam engines? How much does a DoEW produce? Is it enough to produce sufficient amounts of water for a steam engine? I imagine that Sharn has more than a few DoEW near the towe tops, which combined with natural rainwater keeps the sewers running.
Kreistor1 03-27-06, 03:21 PM	Where does it say that these magics haven't worked their way into the Industrial sector? There are two sets of rules: those for the world and those for the players. The rules for Industrial production of mundane goods, like fabric, household items, and so on does not have any effect on the players. You can try to jump through all the hoops and figure out how it changes the economics of the thing, but why? The players live by a set of rules that are not affected directly by machines that build common things. So, all you do in advancing Sharn (and Eberron) into the industrial age is add smog. Everything else is unimportant, except for descriptive flavour. Remember, mass production on a large scale really didn't start until late in the 1800's, and was not perfected until the 1900's. There were blacksmiths in the WIld West at the same time as the Steam Engine drove locomotives across the North American continent. It is not inconsistent to have magical manufacturing methods in Sharn while the Warforged and Dwarves still beat out horseshoes and swords. Notice that Eberron is supposed to be Pulp Noir. These are mature stories of the 20th century, not the high fantasy of the Round Table and Norse heroes that DnD is based on. The modules I've been through have more of a Dracula or Frankenstein feel to them, which were written in the 1800's. Either way, holding Eberron as a whole back to high fantasy tech while trying to work out post-industrial story flavour just winds up with too much chaos. Anyway, the point is that adding Industrial Age flavour to Eberron is not counter-indicated by the ECS. It can be there, because the lack of rules concerning something does not imply that what is missing is not present.
il Kav 03-27-06, 04:56 PM	when I read that "Breland is the most industrializated (spelling?) country in khorvaire", I just suppose that "industrialization" is a fact. If you have industrialization, you have mass-produced items. Some items, maybe. In my game, breland's army soldiers wear mass-produced breastplates and use mass-produced shortswords and spears. In fact, (example) we reduced the cost for a standard longsword (mass-produced) to 3-5 Galifars. I see it like a logical consequence.
PoeticJustice 03-27-06, 06:12 PM	Am I the only one who'd be ****** if they wasted space in the ECS on this? I'm not arguing the plausibility of magic waterwheels, but Eberron most defintely got it right in focusing on magic swords and airships and not small fry bound elemental agriculture. That's better left to a dragonshard. Seriously, it's 320 page book as loaded as much as can be reasonably expected. Waste like this would detract from the work overall.
DoveArrow 03-27-06, 06:40 PM	As for Decanter of Endless Water steam engines? How much does a DoEW produce? Is it enough to produce sufficient amounts of water for a steam engine? I should clarify with a brief history lesson. What made steam power a big thing wasn't that it could do anything that a water wheel driven machine couldn't do. What made it big was that with a water wheel driven machine, you need a source of water to move the wheel, whereas with a steam powered engine, you can put it anywhere. However, if you have a portable source of water to power your water wheel driven machine (like a DoEW), then you don't need to invent steam power, because you already have a machine that functions just fine without it. So to clarify my point a DoEW doesn't need to power a steam engine, because it replaces the need for it altogether. Just something to think about. Oh and to answer your questions about cost, check out this website (http://d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#decanterofEndlessWater )
Flame_Drake 03-27-06, 08:27 PM	Am I the only one who'd be ****** if they wasted space in the ECS on this? I'm not arguing the plausibility of magic waterwheels, but Eberron most defintely got it right in focusing on magic swords and airships and not small fry bound elemental agriculture. That's better left to a dragonshard. Seriously, it's 320 page book as loaded as much as can be reasonably expected. Waste like this would detract from the work overall. I fully agree with this, which is what I was trying to get across in my second post. We CAN create our own reasons for this problems, and we already lack a lot of the information on Eberron that the majority of people would find useful. Spending space on this stuff is wasting in the ECS and Sharn is wasting that space. Its not that the issues aren't importent, its just that they aren't importent to adventurers. Drake
Cutlass 03-27-06, 09:25 PM	... We CAN create our own reasons for this problems, ... It's the Chamber I tell you, holding us back, making sure we stay in our "place" and never become powerful enough to rival the lords of Argonessen. ;)
Tonpa 03-28-06, 01:27 AM	Only an opinion on the matter: I presume that magic is quite common in urban environment, mostly in providing the light and strengthening the structure. Every nobles mansion or castle in countryside will by definition have one or more curiosities, mage with Low magic or bit of High Magic. The basic form for common magic is (or as far as I think it is) made by “common” magical procedures, which by its own merit is Low magic. Compared to the ceremonial and special technique form of Low magic way of making things, the Magic spells that the Dnd rules use are Vulgar and High Magic. High Magic is Exceptional by its own right, because true practitioners are so few in number and usually unique personalities with unique aims. The water infrastructure is derivate mostly from the structural magic, Low magic that is helping to form our modern thing in fantasy environment. The Low magic users know how to do astonishing thing, like how to get water to mile high tower, but their innovations are still basic building processes, using common materials like true water and pressure pumps. The High Magic users know how to cheat around, but either do not have the know how to integrate their Magic in most of the Low magic constructs or the Low magic users don’t really know how to utilize the High Magic on their structures. Low magic could make the engine for the magical construct and the High Magic could make the power for it, but every construct would be very unique and really hand made by many trials and errors on the line. I don’t see the NPC:s using exp here (because they don’t really have any) but blowing up some warehouses. For the eternal part of magical constructs, I still see the Magic to be very dynamic in form, leaking out, slowly animating and awakening thing and disturbing the “luck flow”, or shifting its form. Either way the High Magic construct could lose it’s eternal form quite fast, starting to make things not expected. Elemental binding is the uttermost example of High Magic making every elemental vessel unique and having some personality like form of operations, like slow turn or little protection for male pilots. This all makes High Magic a bit scary for normal person, unnatural still. Some thread talked about magewright tending ever-burning lanterns, making me to presume they are not in fact _ever_ burning. Either the planar fluctuation breaks the Low magic bond or it strengthens the pits of High Magic in the constructs, making them work unexpected ways. This will not exclude the elemental waterwheel, but make it a bit uncommon and could make some point for it’s inclusion in campaign, either for PC craft man to fix haunted windmill. Also this includes the “Chill that Mr Detective gets from morning shower, like little imps were going down his back, maeby because the visit last week at down below.” Tech for the feel mostly. For most constructions in Dnd the crafting spells and the effect Spell like abilities are examples at best. In Eberron campaign I would use the living magic to ad some “patina” for older engines or construct and point out the unique factor of every construction. The pulp feel I have had from the comics and books is that the there is no blasters; there is “the Infamous Dr. Faustions Deadly Anti Voltian Ray”, there also is no “my plane” but “My Fathers Tri Winger, which he bought from a one eyed Turk” and which “Has odd resonating feel when flown over the hills north of old Sir Williams Castle”. That Artificers can use the spell effect of divine descriptors only means that these unique constructions can have said effects if PC Artificers want to make them and GM allows.
Lokiyn 03-28-06, 01:43 AM	I see it like a logical consequence. I see a Riverine Decanter of Endless water activated inside of a Riverine Sphere A logical thing. Hmmm whats the effects of water at an ever increasing psi that can't break the Riverine sphere or decanter? On a more serious note than generating small fusion bombs/black hole weapons, it really would be nice if wotc made a settin neutral book devoted 100% to the mundane aspect of dnd. how much is the party halfling worth at the slave block? What is the average price of land in town and out. Does a brewery require special needs that a winery does not. Is an orchard better with a beehive inside the orchard or a short distance away? Whats the average daily expenditure of a commoner? If i want to bind a book of my travels what can i sell it for and how much does it cost to make. Is black sheep wool more expensive than white? Why does it cost nearly weeks wages to stay at an inn? Whats the cost to build a road or tunnel? What are the mechanics for forestry, Mining, Fishing, Trapping, Profession "x". I really would like to know how the other side of dnd operates. Whats the cost of a window washer in sharn? (Basically a big book on the craft skills, proffession skills, and hirelings, Sans magic) Even some more npc classes or prcs. I really wouldn't mind a Commoner 5/Chimneysweep 10/ Spontaneous Musician 5. Or an expert 5/ Peddler 5
aelryinth 03-28-06, 02:09 AM	Get the Guide to Magical Medievel Society, then. Covers all those topics in quite some detail. A fascinating read, especially with the sheer amount of taxes assessed on everything. ==Aelryinth
Tonpa 03-28-06, 02:20 AM	(Basically a big book on the craft skills, proffession skills, and hirelings, Sans magic) "Commoners life" book could be very helpful. Daily life for starting character of level 1-3 could help form the tone for deeds after. There are books for reference out there, not for Eberron style life still. If you really are interested of stats and not fluff for commoners try: Everyone else http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=324 And for manorial economy A Magical Medieval Society http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=711 (..only magic there is plant growth, but still great read)
Kreistor1 03-28-06, 09:46 AM	Oh, and in support of the Endless Decanter concept, I suggest you play Grasp of the Emerald Claw. There is one particular room which fully supports the theory.
Wolfwood2 03-28-06, 03:09 PM	First off, if you look at the descriptions of elemental binding, this "technology" binds the elemental to power lines througout the structure of the vessel so that the vessel effectively becomes the creature's "body." This is a very cool and (one would suppose) pretty advanced concept. I am not talking about anything so elaborate. I am talking about using lesser planar binding and craft wonderous item to create a circle on the ground that permanently binds an earth elemental to the sight and forces it to turn a crank on a permanent basis. The simple answer? You can't use Planar Binding to force a creature to carry out a permanent task. That's one of the reasons why elemental binding as practiced by the gnomes is special. In fact, you seems to be assuming a lot that if you can imagine it, magic can build it. That's not necessarily the case, though. If it's not a maigc item in the DMG, then there's no guarantee that artificers have been able to figure out how to make it. Why don't they do "that"? They haven't figured out how, that's why. For that matter, you don't need to bind an elemental. The energy output from a wall of fire that has been made permanent through a permanency spell would be enough to wreck any standard mideaval economy. No it wouldn't. All I'm saying is that if you have magic-tec for things like flying ships and trains, then you also need to have it for more basic social institutions like production and manufacturing. An industrial loom to weave textiles, a steem-powered grain mill, and baker's oven etc. etc. All of these become possible because of the energy output of magic. They don't know how to build these things. Nobody has figured it out. They don't know how. Nobody has figured out how to do it. Hey, 21st century science hasn't given me my colonies on the moon or flying cars either, and it seems like stuff like that should be easy! [QUOTE]Let me ask you another question. If Sharn has all these huge skyscrpers, and a floating island high above it's skyline, how do they get water and sewer services up to the highest buildings? How is it that that city is not choked in it's own feces, and dying of thirst? Well fortunately, feces rolls downhill. As for the water, they do it the same way that all big cities get water supplies, except theirs goes up instead of to the side. So here is a case where in order for the postulated "city of towers" to exist, Magic-tec MUST be common enough for the community to have regular access to it. Otherwise the politics of water would not be taken for granted as they so clearly are in the Sharn hardcover. I disagree with you.
Kreistor1 03-28-06, 04:58 PM	They don't know how to build these things. Nobody has figured it out. That is a completely arbitrary suggestion and based solely on you personal opinion. It may be self-justifiable, but I see no argument to support your claim. If you can force an air elemental to move a ship, you can force an air elemental to move a ship that is attached to a wheel, which spins a rod and turns a gear and creates Industry. It is exactly the same thing. To decide that it can move one thing and not move another is unjustifiable. If you are incapable of seeing the parallels between the two tasks, then I can recommend a good Engineering university in your area if you like. The moment you create a tech that can move a ship, you've created a tech that can power Industry. It is very minor leap of insight to see that the two tasks are exactly the same.
Roxlimn 03-28-06, 08:14 PM	I think that the very insistence on an elementally powered water wheel is just pointless. It's more techno-think that's insisting that Eberron Khorvairians think the way we do. They don't. Why move water that may or may not be there when you can just order the water direct and have it always be there? We don't even know what the cost of an elementally powered waterwheel is (probably a lot) nor can we predict the kind of ruin an enraged elemental can wreak upon a landowner. No. IMO, the most sensible thing that a Khorvairian would think of is simply hire the local Raincaller's Guild to deliver water on a regular basis so that he never (not seldom, never) has to worry about drought ever again. As a plus, by supporting the Raincaller's Guild, he can also call upon them later on to ward off gales and storms and such like that would damage his crops.
Always-Late 03-28-06, 08:22 PM	Why would you want an elemental water wheel over say, a normal water wheel that gets powered by a river? I mean, factories sprang up around rivers anyway.
DarthMidget 03-29-06, 12:16 AM	They don't know how to build these things. Nobody has figured it out. That is a completely arbitrary suggestion and based solely on your personal opinion. It may be self-justifiable, but I see no argument to support your claim. The arguement I believe he's making is that magic is not modern technology and operates in fundamentally different ways. While the supposition that if you have a piece of advanced technology means that you have various pieces of less advanced technology is true, the same does not equate to magical means. Magic is not science and doesn't always follow logical laws. All I'm saying is that if you have magic-tec for things like flying ships and trains, then you also need to have it for more basic social institutions like production and manufacturing. An industrial loom to weave textiles, a steem-powered grain mill, and baker's oven etc. etc. All of these become possible because of the energy output of magic. If the gnomes of Zilagro and the artificers of house Cannith are innovative enough to come up with flying ships, then they surley would come up with other inovations. Where are they? There is NO discription AT ALL of any technology other than these modes of transportation. While those things maybe technically possible that doesn't mean they've been invented yet. It's been only a few years since airships were created and only a few decades since warforged became common. These things represent leaps forward in magical technology and not a steady pace of research and development. Both were based off of data gained from an ancient culture and effectively reverse-engineered. The steps taken to reach these achievements are not fully understood in most cases and in some a complete mystery. Also you can't discuss Khorvairan technology without considering the Last War. Take for example WWI. In WWI there were aircraft and airships fighting and bombing. This didn't mean that in the civilian sector there were vast fleets of aircraft sending people around the globe. The civilian transport element of air travel took decades after the end of WWI to develop. Any wartime innovations take a few years to catch on before they get big. The Internet is another great example. The US military created the first basic internet as a way to communicate in the event of a nuclear attack on American soil. The system was developed decades ago and has only recently (i.e. the past five years or so) become very widespread. Most of the 'advanced' magical technologies of Khorvaire are very recent innovations or reverse-engineering of much more ancient work. As such its perfectly reasonable that these methodologies are not yet widespread. In a few decades Khorvaire will likely be quite different as it is on the cusp of something approaching an Industrial Revolution. At the present time, however, it just isn't there yet.
Just another user 03-29-06, 02:04 AM	That is a completely arbitrary suggestion and based solely on you personal opinion. It may be self-justifiable, but I see no argument to support your claim. The same can be told for your assumption that they know how to do it. If you can force an air elemental to move a ship, you can force an air elemental to move a ship that is attached to a wheel, which spins a rod and turns a gear and creates Industry. It is exactly the same thing. To decide that it can move one thing and not move another is unjustifiable. If you are incapable of seeing the parallels between the two tasks, then I can recommend a good Engineering university in your area if you like. The moment you create a tech that can move a ship, you've created a tech that can power Industry. It is very minor leap of insight to see that the two tasks are exactly the same. yes, IF THAT WAS ATECH. it's magic, it is not technology, you can't apply technology logic to that, heck even if you could, it would not work anyway, what are you saying is the equivalent to say that because you have nuclear powered ships and submarines then you must have nuclear powered cars or planes, after all it is the same technology, isn't it?
Tonpa 03-29-06, 03:08 AM	Most of the 'advanced' magical technologies of Khorvaire are very recent innovations or reverse-engineering of much more ancient work. As such its perfectly reasonable that these methodologies are not yet widespread. In a few decades Khorvaire will likely be quite different as it is on the cusp of something approaching an Industrial Revolution. At the present time, however, it just isn't there yet. This sounds reasonable. It should also be pointed out that the market must be there, enough population to support the production and the monetary base to industry grow. For GM there are many reason to assume that the infrastructure is developing very rabidly, but also many reason to counter this. Strong Dragonmark houses are one for both. In other hand they most certainly have the research power to make manufactures and factories and maybe they are, in small scale. Lone manufacturing depots can be installed to games for PC:s to explore, still keeping them unique in flavor. In other hand the small pacts of craftsmen are eager to keep their business in their hands, competing and sabotaging too revolutionary technologies. In Dnd the craftsmen also have the potential to cheat with magic, which is the most powerful, if a bit uncertain and dynamic, crafting tool. So to get elemental powered machine working you first need the know-how, then somebody who really _can_ do that, then the monetary base for the operation and then the markets that are strong enough to compensate your investment and the investments of your competitors. When you now have the prototype, which is the type of machinery I personally envision Eberron being full of, which really does something (and it may bee something completely different you had in mind), then you start to try to make it work. For elementals it is something like the airships, you may need some with magical ability, which are hard to come by and expensive, or some expert with Use Magical Device skill or some other odd skill, which needs some education I think. Now, whit some highly educated experts you finally have, near your gothic mansion and a bit amused knights, an operating machinery which is revolutionary by it self but still very unique. You must compete again against the old businesses and the other equally unique construct, everybody expecting that you have used some Magic while crafting your machine, meaning that all your budget papers lack thousands of gold pieces. You have used parts that are not systematically standardized and odds are that you have used some specialists to craft the parts on site. Your prototype will make an impact on local economy, some craftsmen need to change their production methods and even products, but still the amount of production that the nationwide Craftsmen House is producing is overwhelming your market size. Now you would need some way to show that your prototype is making something more economically than can be done otherwise. With media you could start advertising, but others are doing it too. If you use Sivis House to make some economic figures it will cost you dearly, we know that is reasonable, but our now a bit poorer noble starting to get annoyed. Now, if the Noble is PC he may start to cheats and uses rules to get some magical aid, magical aid that is expensive and especially hard to get for common noble. With magical aid he can again make some profit out of his hard work, which is cool because he is the hero now. He starts new enterprises and must compete against Guilds, Houses and Saboteurs. Hundreds of common nobles, the NPC:s, fail to muster the willpower to make their elemental machines work. I envision there are hundreds and hundreds of failed machines and some that do some work, but the building process ruined the noble producing them. All above is only my small vision on starting Industry in Eberron, but I still feel it gives good base to grow character backgrounds on.
Tonpa 03-29-06, 03:28 AM	Why would you want an elemental water wheel over say, a normal water wheel that gets powered by a river? I mean, factories sprang up around rivers anyway. The Elemental waterwheel can be used to power production where needed. That meaning where the production materials are, making the very costly transportation costs minimal. Waterwheel (and no pressure pump) and factory combination is on the riverside partly because it is easy to transport materials there and it is very hard, if not economically impossible to transport the power for the factory. Power on the material production site and the factory there means more work, work meaning people after the work. Bigger population in factories mean more low class workforce. This can mean, if GM likes, Unions and meaning revolution and fall of normal aristocracy (and coming of plutocracy, theocracy, democracy or similar). Simplifying the issue of course, but the main point is that what GM wants on the political and national flavor. I don’t really now what is looked after here, but modernization means more modern values (and this can mean more intolerance, racism and sexism) and institutions. Factory (and I don’t mean manufacture) by itself is a big step from fantasy campaign with flying ships to more Victorian feel.
Twinnings 03-29-06, 03:51 AM	if u want reallcreative input go look at the thread Dark Lake... i need help bad :confused:
Kreistor1 03-29-06, 11:48 AM	The same can be told for your assumption that they know how to do it. To a certain extent. No matter how you slice it, there are rules to how things work. Magic operates according to some laws, which happen not to be written down. For instance, since there is evidence that all of the major elemental forces can be bound into vessels that move, and there are items with bound elementals that do not need to be charismatically forced to execute a function regularly (the armors and whatnot), you can draw two conclusions. 1) Elementals can be bound to move things. 2) Elementals do not inherently need to be commanded to do a job. At that point, it's all over but the detail work. But not for you. You don't like that conclusion, so you arbitrarily append rules 3) 4) and 5) that you think will prevent the creations you don't want. Mostly, rule 3) is "Only when I want it to", which is on its face arbitrary. I think a lot of people complete underestimate the imagination of inventors. It is nearly impossible to place a restriction on them without them being able to use what you provide to create what they desire. For instance, let's say that you limit the mass that an elemental is allowed to move to that of an elemental vessel. That must stop them from being used to move heavy machinery and gears, right? Wrong. Create a system that is powered by a water wheel. The elemental moves water from the lower chamber back to the top. If the wheel is inactive at night, the elemental has 3x as long to move the water as the water is used, allowing it to move 3x as much mass as the limit actually allowed, and now it can move what the rule attempted to disallow. And all the water elemental does is move water, which it would be very hard to arbitrarily rule against. You'd look, well, silly claiming water elementals can't move water. Just because you are incapable of inventing something that solves the problem doesn't mean that others are incapable of creating what you can't. That's why I declare your rules to be arbitrary and mine are only to a small extent. You don't actually write the rules that prevent people from creating what you don't want to exist. You arbitrarily declare certain things to not exist, without creating the rules I could use to demonstrate that your rules don't actually prevent these inventions. You arbitrarily and randomly rule against individual inventions instead of putting the rules in place to quantify that decision. I, on the other hand, know just how awesomely creative people are. Just looking at things like the Airship will inspire astounding invention. Knowing that the Airship is possible, they will find a way to harness that power and use it for industry, and no rules that I could write that allow the Airship to exist could prevent them from creating these other things. Even if I could write rules that I personally could not overcome, I know that there are others with different mindsets that will overcome them in fantastic and creative ways. The difference between us is that I am relying on the creative spirit of mankind to overcome any rules placed in its face, while you are relying on the stupidity of men in the face of adverse conditions. I don't claim that magic is a deterrent to creation, science is too. What I claim is that men are more creative than you give them credit for, and that is not arbitrary at all.
Tonpa 03-29-06, 01:53 PM	To a certain extent. No matter how you slice it, there are rules to how things work. Magic operates according to some laws, which happen not to be written down. This is a somewhat uncertain point, because for example I view Magic very dynamic, always growing, shrinking and looking new paths. Magic can have laws, which by definition will have exceptions, being magical. In dnd spells there are rules, very clear ones in fact, but those are for simplifying the magic for game use. My point is; for magical construction you do have some amount of uncertainty, which is ruled primary by GM fiat. I’m not really certain there is rules that elemental do move things that are not bound to elemental themselves and would by moving change elementals own location in space. For elemental vessel there is rules to control for non- dragonmarked, which indicate that the elemental is capable of some feeling, either trust or similar positive or negative feeling. And by commanding factor we can, or so I presume, indicate that elemental uses some form of active will to start the movement of its body or similar effect. Here I conclude, and I may be wrong, that elemental vessel could move by itself, but by control of that elemental, that being capable of independent feeling and force of will. By these indications I presume that the elemental vessel is capable of rebellion like conduct, mostly disobedience, as in when the elemental vessel cannot be controlled by weak captain. For this I mean that compared to machinery, elemental bound Magic devices have still some mystery factors and dangers. These by itself don’t prevent the capability to use elemental power as pre industrialization mean, but as steam power and the like, there is capability of human folly and also that the rules can vary elemental to elemental. Again this is only my vision. I don’t see that there is opinion that elemental could not be used for power, concern is how effective this is and if economically effective is it workable for posters own visions. For my vision elemental prototypes and tries and many errors feel sort of pulpish, so yes I can visualize them. For how widespread the elemental technology is I seem to lean to Just another user way. The Player book, which is not the law, prefers that elemental binding is learned from gnomes. I presume that this means that elemental binding happens in other circles than gnomes and house cannith knows how to make elemental machinery, but that the number of these circles is still limited, for my view the can mean that the new innovations are still in future. The new innovations may include elemental powered waterwheel or similar devices, but I don’t really see that it’s not possible that the technology is all put ignored. Good technologies are ignored all the time, better innovations fall out by better marketing and strong old institutions. Fantasy is by its nature, for me at least, cyclic by its nature, strong development followed by fall from grace. Fall of Demons, Giants, Goblinoids and ultimately Man. By this cyclic nature you really can have any innovation imaginable and still end destroyed by your own devices or by competing factors. For the Victorian / Pulp feel, that Kreistor1 went after at post #28, is not to industrialize the society, but make lone prototypes and innovations common but as unique examples of human ingenuity or to show how the earlier civilizations have also fallen.
Kreistor1 03-29-06, 04:42 PM	This is a somewhat uncertain point, because for example I view Magic very dynamic, always growing, shrinking and looking new paths. Magic can have laws, which by definition will have exceptions, being magical. And what effects does that have on your world? Do the PC's wake up one day and discover Magic Missile doesn't work anymore because the rules of magic changed last night? A changing magic only matters to the world if it has chaotic short term effects. If the rate of change is slow enough that something I create today will work for 30 years, and I can make a sufficient return on investment for the device working for 30 years, I'll still make it knowing that in 30 years it will be a hunk of useless steel. If it makes me money, it's worth it despite the end result. In truth, your description of magic is very accurate as a description of Science. Sceince is the art of determining the rules that define the Universe; however, we are constantly refining those rules and therefore giving the perception that the Universe is constantly changing. That's not true, the Universe is constant, only our understanding of it fluctuates. But we build our grandest engineering projects based on the flawed understanding of natural laws, and they still work. Eberrites would do the same, because it is the only thing you can do, in the end. Not fully understanding all the laws of the Universe does not hamstring our own society, nor should it hamstring Eberron. We regularly produce goods that have a life span of 5 years. Engineered obsolesence is the term for it. Technology will have progressed to where the device I make today will be too slow to be effective in five years, so I build it to last 5 years in order to reduce the cost. Money still drives Eberron, so unless you declare Eberrites to be completely insane and unreasonable, they're going to make that same decision. Magic will change enough in five years that this device won't work, so I'll design it to last 5 years and make it cheaper, which will sell more units and I'll get richer.
Khaine 03-29-06, 05:41 PM	Factory (and I don’t mean manufacture) by itself is a big step from fantasy campaign with flying ships to more Victorian feel. While I am enjoying lurking on this thread, I find the idea that Eberron somehow "got it wrong" rather silly. Industry (and factories specifically) are mentioned in the ECS, albeit primarily in Breland/Sharn. But simple logic says if they have it in Breland, odds are there are factories in other parts of Khorvaire as well. Maybe not a lot of them, but some. And in the absence of convient natural power sources (moving water, geothermal, whatever) the logical conclusion is that said industry is powered by magical means. Maybe not bound elementals, but there are other (cheaper and safer) ways to provide mechanical power via magic than bound elementals. The mechanical needs of various basic tasks (milling grain or lumber, irrigation, etc) are the same regardless of whether they are preformed on Earth or Eberron. It doesn't take much of a mental leap to think that people on Eberron would want to solve these mechanical problems using the "technology" that they have access to. Yes, the "magic waterwheel" would be expensive (9000+ gp if you build it using a decanter of endless water), but the profit from that investment (irrigated cropland, milling grain and/or lumber) could easily pay for the waterwheel itself within 5-10 years. Especially if there wasn't a river in the area to begin with. With the decanter you have a constant flow of water, which eventually means a new river (more irrigation) or lake (fish farming) with a little forethought and landscaping. Even more profit. Why isn't all of this mentioned in any of the sourcebooks? Simple. It's not interesting. Unless you're a total mega-geek (something I'm guilty of ;) ), you're not going to care about the particulars of Eberronian agriculture and economics. Most players and most campaigns focus on action and adventure, not the minor details of the setting, thus the minor details get glossed over by the publishers in favor of more interesting material. It's the same with every game and every setting.
DarthMidget 03-29-06, 07:15 PM	The difference between us is that I am relying on the creative spirit of mankind to overcome any rules placed in its face, while you are relying on the stupidity of men in the face of adverse conditions. I don't claim that magic is a deterrent to creation, science is too. What I claim is that men are more creative than you give them credit for, and that is not arbitrary at all. Uhm that has nothing to do with this discussion! No one is saying that Khorvairans aren't creative. What most people, I think, are saying is that some technologies simply haven't been developed yet. Did it ever occur to you that there ISN'T an elemental powered waterwheel simply because there is no need? Perhaps in the future there will be. Perhaps there is the need for one right, but the money and technical skill aren't in place. Khorvaire has a finite amount of Khyber shards, a finite amount of Gnomes who can bind elementals, and a finite amount of people with enough money to buy their processed goods. That means that there cannot be anything less than a very finite amount of elemental powered technologies. When you know you can't build everything you concentrate on building things you know are useful and can be sold. It also means you don't have alot of money to spend on research and development so some 'technologies' that might be relatively easy to do end up not getting done. You can't examine this issue from merely a 'creative' aspect. You have to consider in societal, economic, and political issues as well. I'm sure someone, somewhere on Khorvaire thought that an elementral powered water wheel would be handy. Then the people financing the project said, "Uhm, no, we have rivers for that. What we don't have are airships! Build me an airship." In truth, your description of magic is very accurate as a description of Science. Sceince is the art of determining the rules that define the Universe; however, we are constantly refining those rules and therefore giving the perception that the Universe is constantly changing. That's not true, the Universe is constant, only our understanding of it fluctuates. But we build our grandest engineering projects based on the flawed understanding of natural laws, and they still work. Eberrites would do the same, because it is the only thing you can do, in the end. Well obviously! House Cannith is built upon crafting things that they don't really understand. The warforged are a prime example of that. That still doesn't mean that Khorvaire should have some underlying magic industrial base that isn't there. Not fully understanding all the laws of the Universe does not hamstring our own society, nor should it hamstring Eberron. We regularly produce goods that have a life span of 5 years. Engineered obsolesence is the term for it. Technology will have progressed to where the device I make today will be too slow to be effective in five years, so I build it to last 5 years in order to reduce the cost. Money still drives Eberron, so unless you declare Eberrites to be completely insane and unreasonable, they're going to make that same decision. Magic will change enough in five years that this device won't work, so I'll design it to last 5 years and make it cheaper, which will sell more units and I'll get richer. I'll be honest. I have no idea what modern computing technolgoy has to do with Eberron magic. Eberron magic doesn't change in five years. As far as I can tell it doesn't change at all. Magical artifacts crafted by demons, giants, and dragons in bygone eras are still as powerful as they have ever been. Why anyone in Eberron would make something that would go bad in five years simply sounds insane. Also I'm not sure how even if that were true it would support some sort of magic industry that isn't there that you think should be.
DMDaddy 03-30-06, 12:21 AM	Some interesting comments on Technology. I think Eberron is a place with much magical technology. Everything screams of it, even the message stones or whatever they are. When I read them, I got the idea of a person writing on stone and sending it like email to another location. If magic is suppressed, it is because of higher powers in Eberron, and, it has to be so because otherwise there would be an overflow of magical technologies. I know a few of my players caught on to the magical technology real quick. They are asking many questions about future goals to create factories and such for producing items and such. They are asking about creating a flying city or strong hold. Hey, that is great. When they reach the appropriate level and can write down the spells needed and calculate a reasonable cost and time to create, I'll let them do it.
Tonpa 03-30-06, 01:18 AM	While I am enjoying lurking on this thread, I find the idea that Eberron somehow "got it wrong" rather silly. Industry (and factories specifically) are mentioned in the ECS, albeit primarily in Breland/Sharn. But simple logic says if they have it in Breland, odds are there are factories in other parts of Khorvaire as well. Maybe not a lot of them, but some. And in the absence of convient natural power sources (moving water, geothermal, whatever) the logical conclusion is that said industry is powered by magical means. Maybe not bound elementals, but there are other (cheaper and safer) ways to provide mechanical power via magic than bound elementals. Ah, I’m sorry if I have made wrong impression. I’m not native English speaker after all. My point in earlier posts was to emphasise the uniqueness of mechanical wonders in my vision of Eberron. I had missed the factory point completely in ECS, which is great flaw from me. To speak factories still gives me a bit odd impression; too unified industries feel, which by nature is not pulp, in my vision that is. In our game group I will point this out as a major point of fluff. The unique factor of every manufactured item should, in my opinion, be emphasised also in economy as whole. I try not to say Eberron is wrong or put my image there forcefully, but I will try to keep the small connotative difference there. Foremore I really like to think that investments in industries is risky in games also, even if there are systems and rolls that minimize the risk, if by GM fiat or storytelling style. Prototypes are cool, mad scientist and human folly too.
Tonpa 03-30-06, 01:42 AM	In truth, your description of magic is very accurate as a description of Science. Sceince is the art of determining the rules that define the Universe; however, we are constantly refining those rules and therefore giving the perception that the Universe is constantly changing. That's not true, the Universe is constant, only our understanding of it fluctuates. But we build our grandest engineering projects based on the flawed understanding of natural laws, and they still work. Eberrites would do the same, because it is the only thing you can do, in the end. Yes, science is by its nature fluctuates and for us dynamic, I would not go so far as to say that universe itself is in stasis or even constant. By small scale it makes new compositions and organisms and every natural law that we know has some uncertainty factor, seeming that universe itself can produce new groups of rules if only in small spaces. If this all is only in our perception because we are part of the system is more philosophical question. Magic is by definition is a mean to break the rules and puzzle the observers; therefore its nature should so be very dynamic, in my vision that is. Magic can do things that the rules don’t say, by GM fiat and in this I empathise the feel of word “magic”. Basically I’m only looking for that the prototype feel and the very risky feel of every innovation is empathised in Eberron. The cool part in new inventions is not for me that people do succeed, but that they try and fail and learn and will carry on. Explorative nature of inventors and investors is part of the pulp feel I have grown to love, not the logic of modern R&D. And logically; every human innovations was heralded by hundreds of silent defeats and horrendous failures. To use these failures and to try to make them work desperately is, for me, part of the human nature and closer to humanistic feel. The strength to carry on after many defeats and not letting the foolhardy exploration go is why the flawed laws of nature can be yielded. Magic is, for me, ultimate obstacle that Eberronians wrestle, because it’s (opinion) dynamic.
Just another user 03-30-06, 02:40 AM	Kresitor, you are missing a tiny, but fundamental detail. In my game, I am the GM, I make the rules, the airships are nothing but a plot device, there are not rules that make it works, They works because _I_ want it to works. And the same, or its opposite, is true for the the elemental waterwheel. If you as a gm want it to works, it works (in your game), If I, as GM, don't want it to works, it don't works (in my game) and I can come up with a dozen reasons for it not work/not exist (maybe it is just not possible,maybe it is possible, but it would be too expensive/impratical -you know, like a nuclear powered car-, maybe it is possible, but Lyrandar blocked it, or made it unneccessary (why pay 10000 gps for a waterwheel that could or could not work when I can pay a Lyrandar heir to make rain fall on my fields?), and so on. Or maybe it exist and nobody make a big deal about it. :)
Kreistor1 03-30-06, 11:57 AM	Plot device? That's one element of an Airship. It also provides an environment that affects player immersion into the reality of the game world. Things like the Lightning Rail, Elemental Vessels, Airship, House Sivis message Services, and the commonality of constructs provide the air of mid-late-1800's to the campaign. I'd call it Steampunk, but that might get someone in trouble. An Airship does far more than just provide a fast method of travel. Players get Teleport soon enough, so it's only the plot device you require until L9 or so. Beyond that, the Airship provides the immersion factor a campaign needs in order to give it the feel you want it to have. Providing one aspect of the Steampunk feel while cutting the rest out provides an inconsistency to the player. A chaotic feel is no feel at all, and it detracts from the overall experience. Providing that consistency, the industry behind the creation of the truly astounding inventions, is more readily acceptable to the player, and reduces teh need for suspension of belief. The more the players cna believe it, the more they will feel a part of it.
Jimmifett 03-30-06, 03:54 PM	Perhapse my example of a "magic waterwheel" is not adequately diveloped. Look at it this way. If a sector of the population has enough skill and resources to make a ship that can fly or a magical train (granted that this is a VERY small sector of the population, including governments and international buisinesses, like the dragonhouses), then it stands to reason that a simpler task, like making a wheel that can turn forever, say by binding a handfull of lesser earth elementals to turn turn a crank, would be available to a much larger (but still very small) segment of the population. Now if you have a wheel that is being turned by magic, why can't you then design, oh, say a water pump with pipes or a conveyor belt attached to that wheel, which allows you to move items (like water, ore, or agricultural products) around. What if you were to put a cauldron at the end of this mechanism that had a fire elemental bound to it. This cauldron could easily be used to smelt the iron, or boil the water. Sure you can bind an elemental to a water wheel or cauldron, no problem. But you either need a nice charisma or dragonmark to work them. The elemental in the wheel isn't just going to spin for eternity, it's going to sit there idle until commanded. If the commanding presence leaves, it may well just decide it's tired/bored and stop.
Jimmifett 03-30-06, 04:13 PM	Let me ask you another question. If Sharn has all these huge skyscrpers, and a floating island high above it's skyline, how do they get water and sewer services up to the highest buildings? How is it that that city is not choked in it's own feces, and dying of thirst? They can maintain regular rainfall over the thing I suppose, using weather control magic (not hard to do in the tropical climate of that city I guess), but it would still take a HECK of a lot of annual rainfall to support a population that size. Not only that, but if you ARE using weather magic to provide water, then that weather magic becomes THE MAJOR POWER CENTER of the city. Yet no mention of this is made anywhere in the Sharn hardcover. So what is the answer? Gravity. Each building has an open rain resevoire (or several) on the top. Just like we used in the old west days. Large wooden buckets with a release lever. the rain reservoirs are connected to main pipe shafts. high pressure on the bottom, low on the top.the water closer to the bottom is stagnant from sediment (and the rich don't care bc they live high up).This network of pipes has been filled with rain for a long time. The rich also own thier own 'personal' water resevoirs that serve only thier house/business, and can be used in times of low rain. They can even be payed to release some of thier personal water into the community system. No pumps needed. In the towers, everything goes one way, down. Chutes exist for discarding of trash and waste. These can be flush every now and then with a flow of water to make sure they are clean. The rich makes sure less clogs up top, and only care about clogs further down when it backs up too much to stink up thier level. Everything flows down into the sewers. Needless to say, plumbers can make good money in sharn, the the poor lower levels are pretty nasty.
DarthMidget 03-30-06, 04:40 PM	Providing one aspect of the Steampunk feel while cutting the rest out provides an inconsistency to the player. A chaotic feel is no feel at all, and it detracts from the overall experience. Providing that consistency, the industry behind the creation of the truly astounding inventions, is more readily acceptable to the player, and reduces teh need for suspension of belief. The more the players cna believe it, the more they will feel a part of it. While you are correct in that immersion is important you are incorrect in stating that some sort of industrial base is required for this immersion to take place. Something like an airship does not require an industrial base similar to that occuring in England in the mid to late 1800s. A fleet of airships would, but the small number existing in Khorvairan society decidedly do not. The equivalation of Eberron to Europe after the Industrial Revolution is an incorrect one. It would be far more accurate to compare Khorvaire, at least, to Europe as it existed on the cusp of the Industrial Revolution. A Magic-Tech Revolution seems to be coming to Khorvaire. It simply has not occured yet.
Calibim 03-30-06, 04:50 PM	Some food for thought. ~ Let’s use Everbright Lanterns as an example shall we? Everbright lanterns for the most part are very small dragonshards with either Continual Light or Fire Cast on them (I like the “Light” version myself). Now using what we know about Eberron we know there are these things out there called “minor schema” that can hold up to a 6th level spell. So a Magewright or Artificer could “possibly” create an Everbright lantern in say a day and that would include setting the shard just right and building the housing unit and so forth. Now without the schema, things get harder to do. Take that and parallel it with the water fountains in Sharn (and probably cities other than Sharn) I bet there are Schemas out there that can accomplish this. But they are few and far between. And the only people who knew how to make them (Higher level wizards and Artificers) Died fighting in the Last War. Sure Merrox Probably knows how to make one but why the heck would he do that. You make a few then rent them out and rake in the dough!!! ~ Magic IS DYNAMIC. Someone mentioned something about “waking up one day and magic missile not working” (going to abstain from the obvious joke there). Well in Eberron that depends what Plane is conterminous at the time. Or if you’re in a Manifest Zone. Or maybe you’re in a Manifest Zone AND there is another plane conterminous. See what I mean? Think out of the box. Magic is only seen as science by Wizards. Sorcerors see it as an art. Druids as a gift of nature. Clerics as divine favor. So don’t pigeon hole it. Make it Dynamic! ~ “They haven’t figured it out yet.”: This is spot on! The thing we seem to keep missing is, it is hinted that, most of the biggest advances in the practical application of magic are STOLEN! Warforged? Xen’drik. Elemental Binding? Xen’drik. It’s not like the people of Khorvaier came up with these innovations on there own. As some one else mentioned they reverse engineered them. It’s just like Sharn. Skycars and lifts work there not because the people have found a more powerful way of casting those spells. They work in Sharn because Sharn sits on a Manifest Zone! Now in MY game I play that up. If you, for example cast, “Fly” or “Floating disk” I might “Extend” or “Maximize” it. But that’s just me. ~ High Magic Items: Just because there are not a lot of High level Magic-Users running around anymore does not mean they never were around. It has been stated by Keith (like how we are on a first name basis? :grin: ) that a lot of them perished during the Last War. But there stuff is still around. Possible in that hands of The Twelve or The Arcane Congress or some such group. To this day they probably have people trying to figure out how to make them work. And when they do you might just see another "leap" foward. That's all I have.....for now.
aelryinth 03-30-06, 04:57 PM	Also, keep in mind one HUGE difference between magic and tech. Tech proliferates. ANYONE can make tech...you just the need the right, if specialized training, and an expert with enough help can make strides in production that simply begin to scale with specialization. with magic you need PEOPLE. Special people. People who know magic. High level people. People who can and have the XP to burn to MAKE magic items. Magic has a huge restriction tech doesn't...this reliance on personally powerful people to make it. Once you know how to make a waterwheel, you can mass produce a water wheel. Once you know how to elementally bind a water wheel...making the next one doesn't get any cheaper, unless you go for the huge expense and time of creating an Eldritch Machine. Remember that. So just because there's an Airship flying around, doesn't mean that someone hasn't thought of binding an elemental to turn a wheel somewhere...but more then likely the people capable of doing the job are going to slowly and laboriously make another airship, not a wheel-turner. To make a lot of the stuff that tech takes for granted, you'd have to have a plethora of higher level people and a 'free' method of getting the xp to make em. Y'know, more like Faerun. That's not to say exceptions can't exist...but that's what PC's are for..making the exceptions. IMC, one of the free-thinking casters invented the Perpetual Motion Engine. Basically, it's a flywheel, a cross with weights on the end, where gravity on those endweights is always as a right angle to the axis of the cross-arm holding it. Hence, the weights are always 'falling'. Make those weights big enough, and heavy enough, and they can power anything. The caster uses them to power propellors or wheels...by simple use of gear ratios, speed is easy to control. Cheaper then an elemental fire ring, faster, far less noisy, less reliant on pure magic (a dispel magic won't work, as you can put the PME inside something shielded...the only part needed to get it to work is the connecting axle, which is not magical). And it doesn't require a Dragonmark, and is piloted by manual manipulation of levers and things. But, the ship is still made of soarwood to lighten the load, while hull plates with permanent levitation are required to actually carry large amounts of cargo. Is this going to revolutionize travel overnight? No...it takes a 13th level caster to use the Reverse Gravity which is the heart of the PME. That's a major outlay in gold, time and xp, and the individuals who can do it are rare. On the flip side, it doesn't take a Dragonmark, and the ship is five times and more faster then a Lyrandar airship. Governments are falling over themselves to get one for themselves...but the ability to make them just isn't there, even tho the concept exists, and even the gold is available. People are the limitation. That's the rub. And even knowing that a PME could revolutionize industry, the demand is going to be for ships of war, and that's how they are going to get used and applied. ===Aelryinth
Psifon 03-30-06, 07:00 PM	Well, I seem to have started something! Go away for a week and this thread has taken on a life of it's own. How cool! :cool: aelryinth: I never suggested that one mass-produce magic. Any more than one Mass-produces factories. I am suggesting that one could easily use magic to power the MACHINERY of mass production. Calibim, "Magic is dynamic" doesn't wash on the face of it. One simple spell combo of Wall of Fire + Permanency (which is right there in the PHB), means that you now have a virtually limitless source of energy that can be used as an inexaustable power source. It is clean, reliable and has no adverse environmental effects. Rathar than waste a lot of electrons explaining why Eberron is not more industrial, lets put some ideas out there about HOW it would BE industrialized. This would make much more interesting flavor text and backgrownd for and adventure. Who knows, maybe WoTC will use some of our ideas in a future suplement. Starting simply, Consider this: When you build a castle, (especially in temperate or colder climates), you can put in a "boiler room" in the basement. This room would consist of a Permanent Wall of Fire spell, with both pipes and vents running through the "radiated heat" part of the wall effect. The pipes could simply be used to run hot water through the castle's plumbing. Some pipes could be kept close enough to the wall to produce steam for nearby industry. Finally, vents could carry heat throughout the castle in the winter, and they could be designed to divert heat to less populated areas in the summer. Finally, the cool side of the wall could be used by the castle's metalworkers and potters to power smithies and kilns. This is just one simple industrial application of magic, and it doesn't involve any binding or summoning at all. What are some other ones?
stembolt 03-30-06, 10:29 PM	Tech proliferates. ANYONE can make tech...you just the need the right, if specialized training, and an expert with enough help can make strides in production that simply begin to scale with specialization. Mostly an issue of semantics, but a common mistake that breeds many more mistakes. Technology is anything you build that does something. A magic wand is in fact technology. What you mean is “a mechanical or electromechanical device.” When you build a castle, (especially in temperate or colder climates), you can put in a "boiler room" in the basement. This room would consist of a Permanent Wall of Fire spell, with both pipes and vents running through the "radiated heat" part of the wall effect. Not necessarily. In fact the general broad view on magic would disagree with that summation. Wall of fire does fire damage to anyone who enters, or is near the effect. Now an obvious conclusion would be that the wall of fire should be heating the room as air rises and cold air takes its place. Yet there is no mention of this effect. In a typical dungeon room the wall should make things toasty pretty quick. Certainly this effect would be noted if it existed. So wall of fire does not heat up the surrounding area. Look at it from the other direction. In DnD generally, and in Eberron specifically, Most large magic items need some kind of power supply. Constructs need spirits or such bound to them. Trains or flying ships need elementals for motive force. These are all complex high level devices. Therefore, what is the likelihood that you could just use wall of fire to get around all those limitations? The same that you could get around not having the feat “craft rod” because you have the feat “craft wand.”
DarthMidget 03-30-06, 11:49 PM	Here's an interesting way to look at magic: What if during the early 1800s a very special type of person was required to build a steam engine? You couldn't simply write the instructions down and begin building - you would have to have a 'specific' type of individual there. Without that person's 'special ability' no steam engine could be created. There are also a finite number of these special people. Crafting each steam engine requires a bit of their 'life essence' as such it's not something they will do for just anyone. If this were the scenario in early 19th Century Europe there would have been ALOT less steam engines. That's basically how magic works. You have to have special people to do it (spellcasters) and each time they make something permanent it takes a bit of their essence (XP). So magic-tech, by extension, won't be as prevalent as any form of technology can be. Which is a very good reason why you are much more likely to find a crossbow than a wand on an Eberronian battlefield. Oh sure, you'll likely find a wand, but you won't find an entire infantry regiment carrying them into battle. Outside of this you have another limiting factor in Eberron magic-tech which is the almost universal requirement of dragonshards. Now Psifon's question of how one would industrialize Eberron is interesting. It obviously can be done in terms of the Industrial Revolution since the aforementioned problems exist. Now the upside of Khorvairan magic-tech industrialization is that most magic-tech would likely last alot longer than industrial items. By that I mean that since there are still items of great power left over from previous magical epochs such items must not degrade like regular technological items. Take for example a main battle tank. If you let it sit for a few thousand years its going to be in a very different state than when you left. Magical artifacts, however, seem to have a preservation power that is unaffected by the passage of time. Given that when a wizard does create something you can count on using it for the forseeable future. Given that it is possible for Khorvaire to progress to a 'modern' technology level through magic-tech. It might, however, simply take longer to accomplish than in modern days. Of course what ever is created will last longer than the modern day equivalent (i.e. car, train, computer, etc). Example: Two decades ago almost no one in the world had a cell phone. Today virtually everyone, in the Western world at least, has one. You couldn't really do that with Eberron. Mass producing that amount of magical tech would quickly drain every caster in Khorvaire. Of course whatever magical 'cell phones' were created, even ones hundreds of years ago, would still be good. So we have this scenario of steady growth instead of a boom growth. Its an interesting situation. Of course that's just what occured to me of the top of my head. I could be totally wrong... :)
aelryinth 03-31-06, 02:49 AM	Mostly an issue of semantics, but a common mistake that breeds many more mistakes. Technology is anything you build that does something. A magic wand is in fact technology. What you mean is “a mechanical or electromechanical device.” Not necessarily. In fact the general broad view on magic would disagree with that summation. Wall of fire does fire damage to anyone who enters, or is near the effect. Now an obvious conclusion would be that the wall of fire should be heating the room as air rises and cold air takes its place. Yet there is no mention of this effect. In a typical dungeon room the wall should make things toasty pretty quick. Certainly this effect would be noted if it existed. So wall of fire does not heat up the surrounding area. Look at it from the other direction. In DnD generally, and in Eberron specifically, Most large magic items need some kind of power supply. Constructs need spirits or such bound to them. Trains or flying ships need elementals for motive force. These are all complex high level devices. Therefore, what is the likelihood that you could just use wall of fire to get around all those limitations? The same that you could get around not having the feat “craft rod” because you have the feat “craft wand.” Yes, you are getting language peevish. 'Tech' is generally assumed to be device built on the principles of science, makable and usable by anyone with some skill. Magic and artifice are assumed to be made by people who can wield arcane energies, and in many cases are unusable by people who cannot also use those energies. The making of the wall of fire takes a spellcaster who can cast it, cast permanency, and is willing to donate xp to the cause. It most certainly could be done...but the casters generally have better things to do. Thus, such fine systems will be the exception, not the rule. Look at my example above. Its not about making magic items...I specifically made a magic item that does NOTHING but provide mechanical power...a machine of industry. And its still going to be rare...because of the person requirement. ===Aelryinth
Khaine 03-31-06, 03:48 AM	Ah, I’m sorry if I have made wrong impression. I’m not native English speaker after all. No prob I had missed the factory point completely in ECS, which is great flaw from me.....In our game group I will point this out as a major point of fluff. The mention of factories (the specific use of the word) is in the section describing the Mror Holds and refers to factories in Breland. It's hidden pretty deep, so don't feel too bad ;) To speak factories still gives me a bit odd impression; too unified industries feel, which by nature is not pulp, in my vision that is. The unique factor of every manufactured item should, in my opinion, be emphasised also in economy as whole. The presence of factories and the unique factor aren't really mutually exclusive though. I view what the factories that do exist as relatively primitive affairs, like lumber or grain mills. They're probably going to be churning out simple-to-make goods like textiles, weapon/armor parts, glass/pottery items, etc. Anything more complex than that would probably be beyond the current SOTA as of 998. That's still a major improvement in the general quality of life of the inhabitants of the Five Nations though. As an interesting side note, the frequent (three times a week!) continent-wide distribution of the Korranberg Chronicle implies the existance a magical version of the printing press (to quote the ECS "It wasn't long before the magical arts allowed for a more permanent method of presentation [of news], and the chronicles were born.') Eberron is far, far from Medieval in its flavor. Socially and technologically it has more in common with the late Renaissance or early Industrial Revolution.
Khaine 03-31-06, 04:03 AM	The making of the wall of fire takes a spellcaster who can cast it, cast permanency, and is willing to donate xp to the cause. It most certainly could be done...but the casters generally have better things to do. Or it could require a 7th level artificer with a couple of scrolls. You're also underestemating the laziness of most sentient beings. A caster or artificer can get paid just as easy making wall-of-fire-boiler systems as he or she can adventuring, and without the risk of life and limb. Besides, wall-of-fire-boilers aren't the only way to heat (or cool) a building. Somewhere in the ECS the existance of magically refrigerated lightning rail cars was mentioned (I think in the section on Karrnath). If you can cool an area you can heat it likewise (I'm thinking a minor magical item based on the heat/chill metal spells). Thus, magical heating or air conditioning systems would be pricey, but doable. Look at my example above. Its not about making magic items...I specifically made a magic item that does NOTHING but provide mechanical power...a machine of industry. And its still going to be rare...because of the person requirement. The same thing - perpetual motion - can be accomplished with a (decanter of endless) water wheel. A lot cheaper and more profitable too (if you can deal with all the extra water ;) )
Roxlimn 03-31-06, 05:24 AM	I think that the basic flaw in thinking here is that some posters (like Kreistor1) insist on seeing Eberron as Steampunk, when it doesn't say that it is (and is different in many respects). In some ways, Eberron is like the Steampunk genre, but in other ways, it is not. Indeed, it has much more in common with innovative worlds like FFVII and various magitech-like worlds in anime than anything from history OR steampunk. The problem the scitech people can't get over is why isn't Khorvaire more driven by science?. The answer is as simple as it is obvious: because it's driven by magic. How do the high towers of Sharn get plumbing and such? Magic. How do farmers mill their grains and such? Magic. How do you heal a near-fatal injury? Magic. Magic is as commonplace to the average Khorvairian as complex scientific devices were to the average pre-Industrial European. There is some connection there, but it's tenuous at best. Do you need a large industrial base in order to build Airships and such like? Don't be ridiculous. You don't. All you need is Magic. Magic explains everything and then some. The mere existence of the Mark of Making and the Skyforge renders any arguments about factories moot and academic. Why would you pay hundreds of workers a pittance to produce shoddy goods when you can pay a single individual a good pay (with good loyalty) to produce at least equal amounts of good quality goods? Goods in Khorvaire are made in quality and in widespread quantity because of the Fabricator's Guild, not because of the Assembly Line. Psifon insists on taking up his "magic waterwheel," but frankly, I don't see the point. If I was an artificer and I wanted to do something (such as grind grain), I'd build a magical device specific to it. This magical device would never need maintenance, and I wouldn't need any scientific know-how to assemble or repair it. It's probably easier to find an artificer than an engineer with the right knowledge, anyway, since gears and suchlike are found mostly in artifice rather than scientific devices. Why would you ever commission a wheel to turn forever when you could do something more basic (like producing a geyser that runs forever) or more complex (a construct that labors forever) on command anyway? Eberron doesn't need an ever-turning waterwheel because it can already build devices that are infinitely better. You need to figure out some way to use an ever-turning wheel, plus the technological knowhow to build and maintain this method. You don't need anything to put a Tin Golem to good use. It can stack bricks, turn grindstones, carry loads, defend your person, and it's mobile. If you wanted more power, you commissioned a bigger Golem, or more Golems. If you want transportation, you comissioned an Airship. More than anything else, what's inhibiting Khorvaire from pursuing scientific progress is the fact that magic already does many of those things for them, usually in better ways. True, it's personality-centric rather than mass-centric, but to them, that's a good thing. Why use magic with tech when magic alone pretty much does everything already? If you wanted to move things around, you used something that's already suited to it. Like Warforged. If you ever thought about the efficiency of things and tried to use a conveyor belt, you'd still use your Warforged to power it. If you prefer to use nonsentients, constructs are available as well. Why use a potentially hostile elemental? Indeed, since you're already getting your stuff moved by constructs anyway, why would you even think about something like efficiency?
Ellorin 03-31-06, 05:27 AM	I think that the basic flaw in thinking here is that some posters (like Kreistor1) insist on seeing Eberron as Steampunk, when it doesn't say that it is (and is different in many respects). In some ways, Eberron is like the Steampunk genre, but in other ways, it is not. Indeed, it has much more in common with innovative worlds like FFVII and various magitech-like worlds in anime than anything from history OR steampunk. The problem the scitech people can't get over is why isn't Khorvaire more driven by science?. The answer is as simple as it is obvious: because it's driven by magic. How do the high towers of Sharn get plumbing and such? Magic. How do farmers mill their grains and such? Magic. How do you heal a near-fatal injury? Magic. Magic is as commonplace to the average Khorvairian as complex scientific devices were to the average pre-Industrial European. There is some connection there, but it's tenuous at best. Do you need a large industrial base in order to build Airships and such like? Don't be ridiculous. You don't. All you need is Magic. Magic explains everything and then some. The mere existence of the Mark of Making and the Skyforge renders any arguments about factories moot and academic. Why would you pay hundreds of workers a pittance to produce shoddy goods when you can pay a single individual a good pay (with good loyalty) to produce at least equal amounts of good quality goods? Goods in Khorvaire are made in quality and in widespread quantity because of the Fabricator's Guild, not because of the Assembly Line. Psifon insists on taking up his "magic waterwheel," but frankly, I don't see the point. If I was an artificer and I wanted to do something (such as grind grain), I'd build a magical device specific to it. This magical device would never need maintenance, and I wouldn't need any scientific know-how to assemble or repair it. It's probably easier to find an artificer than an engineer with the right knowledge, anyway, since gears and suchlike are found mostly in artifice rather than scientific devices. Why would you ever commission a wheel to turn forever when you could do something more basic (like producing a geyser that runs forever) or more complex (a construct that labors forever) on command anyway? Eberron doesn't need an ever-turning waterwheel because it can already build devices that are infinitely better. You need to figure out some way to use an ever-turning wheel, plus the technological knowhow to build and maintain this method. You don't need anything to put a Tin Golem to good use. It can stack bricks, turn grindstones, carry loads, defend your person, and it's mobile. If you wanted more power, you commissioned a bigger Golem, or more Golems. If you want transportation, you comissioned an Airship. More than anything else, what's inhibiting Khorvaire from pursuing scientific progress is the fact that magic already does many of those things for them, usually in better ways. True, it's personality-centric rather than mass-centric, but to them, that's a good thing. Why use magic with tech when magic alone pretty much does everything already? If you wanted to move things around, you used something that's already suited to it. Like Warforged. If you ever thought about the efficiency of things and tried to use a conveyor belt, you'd still use your Warforged to power it. If you prefer to use nonsentients, constructs are available as well. Why use a potentially hostile elemental? Indeed, since you're already getting your stuff moved by constructs anyway, why would you even think about something like efficiency? I couldn't agree more.
Tonpa 03-31-06, 08:18 AM	The mention of factories (the specific use of the word) is in the section describing the Mror Holds and refers to factories in Breland. It's hidden pretty deep, so don't feel too bad ;) Ah, thank you for pointing that out. This Thread has been a great assistance to developing my view in this aspect of Eberron. The presence of factories and the unique factor aren't really mutually exclusive though. I view what the factories that do exist as relatively primitive affairs, like lumber or grain mills... Yes, this is basically what I mean also, relative simple machinery is really ok, and if they are unique in flavor the better. Mass production of goods is what I’m afraid of, because it brings a bit too modern way of thinking to Eberron. Classical thinking, as far I see it, is not really for concentrated maximizing the profit or “free lunches”. The maximum profit, and also the total destruction of enemy, way to thinking is modern in flavor and not really present in real historic Europe before scientific revolution and modernization. With this I mean in generic way society work, individual Investors can try to maximize their relative profit, which consist also his relation to the groups he belongs to. Therefore to produce one part of item, in modular way, to minimize expanses and unite this mass production with other producing units is too modern and out of character in my view. As an interesting side note, the frequent (three times a week!) continent-wide distribution of the Korranberg Chronicle implies the existance a magical version of the printing press (to quote the ECS "It wasn't long before the magical arts allowed for a more permanent method of presentation [of news], and the chronicles were born.') I really love the fact that there is journalism in Eberron, which bring so many good plots for new characters. I myself visualize that the printing process is very mundane affair, maybe with lose letters and all, but the magical part is the act of delivering the news to prints, printing the images and pictures in papers and distributing the paper.
Khaine 03-31-06, 08:20 AM	The problem the scitech people can't get over is why isn't Khorvaire more driven by science?. The answer is as simple as it is obvious: because it's driven by magic. Magic is the science and technology of Eberron (for artificers, magewrights, and wizards at least). (Webster's Science - systematized knowledge derived from observation, study, and experimentation carried on in order to determine the nature or principles of what is being studied) (Webster's Technology - applied science) What I've been trying to say (unsuccessfully apparently) in my previous posts is that the problems of everyday life require basically the same mechanical (in the archaic sense of the word, ie labor) solutions whether you use mundane or magical means to solve them. And magic is expensive. Joe Farmer can't afford a magic waterwheel (or magic millstone, or anything else), so he has to use the same methods to solve his farming problems as people have been using since argiculture was invented (ie animal/natural power and manual labor). Bob Landowner, whom Joe and his 20 friends rent their fields from, can afford some magical conviences however. How do farmers mill their grains and such? Magic.......Psifon insists on taking up his "magic waterwheel," but frankly, I don't see the point. If I was an artificer and I wanted to do something (such as grind grain), I'd build a magical device specific to it. So the question is what type of magical convience does Bob buy? A decanter -of-endless-water driven waterwheel or a millstone that turns itself on command (like you mentioned in the quote above)? Keep in mind, Bob doesn't care about making Joe & friends' lives easier, Bob cares about making a profit. A magic millstone can only due one thing - grind grain. A magic waterwheel can do a lot of things with the proper planning to back it up (irrigate fields, grind grain, mill lumber, be a continual source of clean water, make lakes/rivers, etc). All things the Bob can charge Joe, his friends, and the rest of the farmers in the area for. The magic millstone might be a bit cheaper, but the magic waterwheel can make him a bigger profit in the long run. Odds are, if Bob is in the market for magic in the first place, he can afford to buy either item. Obviously, Bob buys the magic waterwheel. This doesn't just affect Bob and the farmers though, it effects the artificer selling the magi-tech too. The artificer sees that his customers buy more magic waterwheels than magic millstones, so he concentrates mainly on making magic waterwheels (his best seller). Market demand determines production, and production determines supply. Simple econonmics. What's the point? The point is that using magic and brains (what you would call tech) is more profitable than just using magic alone. The people of Khorvaire aren't stupid. They understand basic economics and simple (non-magical) tech just as well as you and I. This would logically lead to a blending of magic and simple technology, with a number of simple mechines being driven be magical power sources. Practical magical items would be somewhat less common then you are predicting (except among the very rich), but more useful. By your logic, the people of Khorvaire would no longer even use the wheel, since they would solve their transportion needs by magic! It's probably easier to find an artificer than an engineer with the right knowledge, anyway, since gears and suchlike are found mostly in artifice rather than scientific devices. This is a rather odd comment given the point you're trying to make. If you're doing something with magic, why bother with gears at all? ;)
Tonpa 03-31-06, 09:03 AM	I think that the basic flaw in thinking here is that some posters (like Kreistor1) insist on seeing Eberron as Steampunk, when it doesn't say that it is (and is different in many respects). In some ways, Eberron is like the Steampunk genre, but in other ways, it is not. Indeed, it has much more in common with innovative worlds like FFVII and various magitech-like worlds in anime than anything from history OR steampunk. I must say that I see validity in the visions that these posters have and it’s not flaw itself, personal preference more likely. The problem the scitech people can't get over is why isn't Khorvaire more driven by science?. The answer is as simple as it is obvious: because it's driven by magic. Yes, you are really right there, but the reasons are not so easy. You must remember that we live in modern society, where competition is encouraged and has been in our schooling system from lover grades. The maximization principle for gains is very deeply intergraded and also produces an need to improve and micromanage things. With science being the real-life’s ultimate management tool it is just natural to use it as a measuring stick with different economies, why more socially oriented societies, like medieval, seem to work poorly. One of the reasons there is different value, which make maximizing own profit, and ruining competition, undesirable. To include magic in equation is to include one unknown form of resource to equation, which by its nature is unknown to us. You self said it in a good form: More than anything else, what's inhibiting Khorvaire from pursuing scientific progress is the fact that magic already does many of those things for them, usually in better ways. True, it's personality-centric rather than mass-centric, but to them, that's a good thing. Why use magic with tech when magic alone pretty much does everything already? Which is the main point here and you really have good vision, in my opinion, here. For different view you should still consider that the society type in most Khorvaire nations is very modern, maybe a bit utopist. While there are many pits of feudalism, monarchism and theocratic forces, the basic society has nations , strong mainly economically oriented groups and almost full citizen suffrage . The society explicitly encourages equality between races, social groups and sexes. All citizens can read and write, so they have some form of very modern schooling. From this background you can, but you really don’t need to, make conclusion that the society is getting more and more mass –centric, which leads to rationalizing magic processes that the last parts of elitism is possible. If mass awakening to magic is not viable solution, then some way of compensation could be formed, meaning magitech. I must address that I view Eberron in more monarchical and aristocratic way, with few technological wonders and loads of unique prototypes and the like, with similar view as you seem to have. Different view are still viable.
Tonpa 03-31-06, 09:35 AM	What's the point? The point is that using magic and brains (what you would call tech) is more profitable than just using magic alone. The people of Khorvaire aren't stupid. They understand basic economics and simple (non-magical) tech just as well as you and I. This would logically lead to a blending of magic and simple technology, with a number of simple mechines being driven be magical power sources. Practical magical items would be somewhat less common then you are predicting (except among the very rich), but more useful. There is a question of extend of technology used in GM .s vision, and there is enough in Eberron to credit many different visions with good results. For Khorvaireans being stupid if they don’t use magic and technology in hand to hand, which I presume you meant, is a bit harsh comment. There can be many different reasons why something is used or left unused, usually very sensible ones. Usually if you encounter things that seem strange or even illogical does not mean that either observer or the observed party is stupid. I can see why wielding very potent energy source with machinery is logical, but it can be also strange for our people there. Mind that Eberronian engineer could be working on means to go visit one of the bodies circling the planet, and in the same time mind that bringing prayers and incantations to the process could hamper the finishing vehicle. Likewise the arch magister, who is counting the celestial symbols for her arcane gate to different plane could view pressure pumps, long metal tubes dug on solid earth and bags of very flammable cotton with powdered alchemical ingredients an foolhardy way to make noise. Yes, I’m being silly with Verne’s cannon.. :)
Psifon 03-31-06, 02:01 PM	The making of the wall of fire takes a spellcaster who can cast it, cast permanency, and is willing to donate xp to the cause. It most certainly could be done...but the casters generally have better things to do. Thus, such fine systems will be the exception, not the rule. I'm sorry but this is just innane. You have better things to do than revolutionize industry in your community? Well, if you are the vassal of a lord, then the lord may have different ideas about how you use your time. Also, once ONE lord has such a resource, other lords will want it, and so the idea will spread. Roxlimn, I dont' know if you are arguing for my position or against it. What does it matter if you are using bound elementals or tin golems? The fact remains that you are using magic to provide an infinate energy source to power industry. All your ideas prove my point. I must address that I view Eberron in more monarchical and aristocratic way, with few technological wonders and loads of unique prototypes and the like, with similar view as you seem to have. Different view are still viable. Actually, I like this interpretation the best, and in fact I think that this is what K. B. intended in his vision of ebberon. The whole thing has sort of a Jules Vern/2000 Leagues Under the Sea feel to it, where exotic technologies (or in this case magics) exist and are proliferating, but they are only in the hands of the aristorcracy. This creates some of the unique flavor of the setting, and I like it. At the same time, this genre of fiction came out as an outgrowth of the real world industrial revolution, and it was written during a period when it seemed like there was no problem that science and reason couldn't solve. Eberron allows the DM to set the stage of this kind of Jules Vern - type world, but it doesn't really hold together as an actual society. I guess, no published work really has, but there you go. I think of some real-world stories as fitting well in Eberron, and they all have that "monarchical and aristocratic" feel to them: 2000 Leagues under the sea The League of extrordinary Gentlemen Gulliver's Travels John Carter of Mars These are pretty clearly the pulp-genre that the setting was patterned after. And I guess that so long as I don't think to much about it, I can just have fun with the setting as it stands. I think that Eberron is designed for this kind of story telling, NOT to exist as a good example of a magic-tech society. And that's OK.
Tonpa 03-31-06, 03:05 PM	I think of some real-world stories as fitting well in Eberron, and they all have that "monarchical and aristocratic" feel to them: 2000 Leagues under the sea The League of extrordinary Gentlemen Gulliver's Travels John Carter of Mars These are pretty clearly the pulp-genre that the setting was patterned after. And I guess that so long as I don't think to much about it, I can just have fun with the setting as it stands. I think that Eberron is designed for this kind of story telling, NOT to exist as a good example of a magic-tech society. And that's OK. You just named some of the most interesting tales to be told in Eberron, I must say. Still one more classic is Arthur Sarsfield Ward’s Dr. Fu Manchu series and of course the old pulp novels like The Shadow. I was also impressed on the storyline of the old Tarzan books. Each one of these gives a load of unique ideas for even this threads topic; In the radio series Shadow of Fu Manchu , the villainous doctor has traveled to London, to assassinate the most prominent Oriental specialists in British Government, that the oriental might could grow unchecked. Doctor is working for infamous oriental masterminds the Seven . While the plot unravels the Doctor present to listener many insidious contractions, mostly deadly traps of mechanical blades, but also alchemical poisons and bred venomous insects. The most dramatical is the Green Mist , which kills fast and is associated with Burmese strangler assassins, which wait behind the window. I, by some strike of luck the recipient of the poison, which comes in form of a letter, survives and breaths some fresh air from the window, the strangler strikes and by some string tucks the subject to his or her doom. In the Shadow the reader, or with the radio show listener, gets to see loads of malefic instruments of madmen. Most memorable for me was the mummy. Some group of archeologist had got new mummy from Egypt, but there had been problem to whom the prestige should belong. One from the group inserted device to the skull of the King Tut (the mummy), forming an eerie Glow from its eyes. The device produced a form of roentgen radiation, which destroyed the white blood cells in the bodies of those who saw the Glow. The device was so activated that the guilty party could manage it unharmed. Dead was in few seconds, so people could only say something like: “There is nothing wrong… hey wait a minute… the Eyes… the Eyes…. aaaargghhh..” By Gods! I just love pulp…
aelryinth 03-31-06, 03:22 PM	I'm sorry but this is just innane. You have better things to do than revolutionize industry in your community? Well, if you are the vassal of a lord, then the lord may have different ideas about how you use your time. Also, once ONE lord has such a resource, other lords will want it, and so the idea will spread. Roxlimn, I dont' know if you are arguing for my position or against it. What does it matter if you are using bound elementals or tin golems? The fact remains that you are using magic to provide an infinate energy source to power industry. All your ideas prove my point. Actually, I like this interpretation the best, and in fact I think that this is what K. B. intended in his vision of ebberon. The whole thing has sort of a Jules Vern/2000 Leagues Under the Sea feel to it, where exotic technologies (or in this case magics) exist and are proliferating, but they are only in the hands of the aristorcracy. This creates some of the unique flavor of the setting, and I like it. At the same time, this genre of fiction came out as an outgrowth of the real world industrial revolution, and it was written during a period when it seemed like there was no problem that science and reason couldn't solve. Eberron allows the DM to set the stage of this kind of Jules Vern - type world, but it doesn't really hold together as an actual society. I guess, no published work really has, but there you go. I think of some real-world stories as fitting well in Eberron, and they all have that "monarchical and aristocratic" feel to them: 2000 Leagues under the sea The League of extrordinary Gentlemen Gulliver's Travels John Carter of Mars These are pretty clearly the pulp-genre that the setting was patterned after. And I guess that so long as I don't think to much about it, I can just have fun with the setting as it stands. I think that Eberron is designed for this kind of story telling, NOT to exist as a good example of a magic-tech society. And that's OK. You are being defensive and completely missing my point...so is Roxlimm. Artificer with scrolls. Right. It takes more xp to make scrolls and cast them then it does to just have a caster come in and cast the spells. The restriction is on the number of casters of sufficent level who have the XP to burn. I'm not saying the gold isn't there. I'm not saying the desire and the drive isn't there. I'm saying the people to implement the changes aren't there. Tech proliferates because anyone can use and implement em. Magic requires a personal touch, a touch requiring rare, high level people. And, until now, those people have basically been involved in the military machine, not the feely-good 'for the common good' who aren't suffering. As for the water wheel...40 gallons a minute isn't going to do all that much in terms of pure kinetic power...the flywheel I described is limited only by the weight of the 'falling' blocks. Make those things a couple of tons and you've got a bucketload of kinetic power. 9000 gp to turn a wheel that might be able to just grind bread is not an efficent return on your money, although always having an emergency water supply is a nice convenience. Will that much water supply the needs for an entire farming community's irrigation demands? I heartily doubt it, but you'd have to get a better expert. As for raising the sea levels...40 gallons a minute just isn't a huge amount of water volume. Someone did the math on acre-inches, and decanters are very slow. 8 5 gallon buckets a minute? Come on. To use this to 'power the wheels of industry' is laughable...there's not enough power. As for 'never need maintenence'...get real. Not all parts of the 'wheels of industry' are magical...all those moving parts require maintenence...and the cost in xp and gold to make everything magical just isn't going to happen. So all this talk is going around the point...you don't have the people to do the jobs, the demand for high level people with the xp to spend is all over the place, and they've had better things to do. That's why it's a magical world...there is a distinct class of have and have nots...those who can use and do the magic, and those who can't. Tech doesn't have this restriction, which is why it can proliferate so much faster. I'm not disputing the ideas aren't there, the demand isn't there...I'm saying the supply isn't there. ===Aelryinth
Just another user 03-31-06, 05:03 PM	Also, keep in mind one HUGE difference between magic and tech. Tech proliferates. ANYONE can make tech...you just the need the right, if specialized training, and an expert with enough help can make strides in production that simply begin to scale with specialization. with magic you need PEOPLE. Special people. People who know magic. High level people. People who can and have the XP to burn to MAKE magic items. ===Aelryinth Incidentally, this is one of the reason of the success of the Dragonmarked families. You can't just produce a wizard, you can't just pick someone and teach him magic. In the some way even if in different measure you can't produce clerics, bards or sorcerers. But produce a dragonamarked is reltively easy and reliable, all you is a dragonmarked person, someone of the same race and opposite gender, and 9 months (if human) or more. It don't works all the times but works way more often that for the other kind of spellcasters.
Just another user 03-31-06, 06:21 PM	Or it could require a 7th level artificer with a couple of scrolls. You're also underestemating the laziness of most sentient beings. A caster or artificer can get paid just as easy making wall-of-fire-boiler systems as he or she can adventuring, and without the risk of life and limb. you need a 12 caster level to make wall of fire permanent, this mean a 12 level artificer. Besides, wall-of-fire-boilers aren't the only way to heat (or cool) a building. Somewhere in the ECS the existance of magically refrigerated lightning rail cars was mentioned (I think in the section on Karrnath). If you can cool an area you can heat it likewise (I'm thinking a minor magical item based on the heat/chill metal spells). Thus, magical heating or air conditioning systems would be pricey, but doable. I think that those magic refrigerator are based around Prestidigitation.
Just another user 03-31-06, 06:24 PM	The making of the wall of fire takes a spellcaster who can cast it, cast permanency, and is willing to donate xp to the cause. It most certainly could be done...but the casters generally have better things to do. Thus, such fine systems will be the exception, not the rule. ===Aelryinth it would certainly being expensive, my count is 22.000 GP, 12000 for 2 5th level spell and 10000 for the xp of permanency, and you need at least a 12 level caster to make the wall permanent. And that is only the cost for the spells.
stembolt 03-31-06, 06:54 PM	Yes, you are getting language peevish. 'Tech' is generally assumed to be device built on the principles of science, makable and usable by anyone with some skill. Absolutely wrong. As an engineer I can assure you that any time you “make something” to “do something,” that’s technology. And of course it’s the application of science. Science is systematic understanding of “things.” it would certainly being expensive, my count is 22.000 GP, 12000 for 2 5th level spell and 10000 for the xp of permanency, and you need at least a 12 level caster to make the wall permanent. And that is only the cost for the spells. Particularly when you consider that the wall will do nothing productive in the end.
Siran Dunmorgan 03-31-06, 07:34 PM	Also, keep in mind one HUGE difference between magic and tech. Tech proliferates. ANYONE can make tech...you just the need the right, if specialized training, and an expert with enough help can make strides in production that simply begin to scale with specialization. with magic you need PEOPLE. Special people. People who know magic. High level people. People who can and have the XP to burn to MAKE magic items. Magic has a huge restriction tech doesn't...this reliance on personally powerful people to make it. Once you know how to make a waterwheel, you can mass produce a water wheel. Just as an aside—I am not going to get drawn into the main line of this conversation—Hellcow has suggested the magic is even more common than the Eberron Campaign Setting book asserts: specifically, he noted that Aundair's emphasis on magic is such that even Aundairian peasants know how to cast a spell or two. His suggestion was to build a few peasants in each village with the Spell Hand feat from Complete Arcane, with the "flavor" assertion that they're actually casting the spells, rather than using Spell-Like Abilities. —Siran Dunmorgan
Psifon 03-31-06, 09:23 PM	I'm not disputing the ideas aren't there, the demand isn't there...I'm saying the supply isn't there. ===Aelryinth it is not unusual In my experience, for a group of 1st level adventurers to make it to 12th level in less than one year of adventuring (in game time). Why do you think there would be no supply? The cost of this spell is a little over 25k. This is between the cost of a +3 and a +4 sword. Are you saying that there are NO +4 swords in Eberron? IIRC, you need to be a 12th level caster to make only a +3 sword. The Stronghold builder's Guidebook states a fiery wall augmentation (basically a wall with a wall of fire effect attached to it). cost only 14k. As a wonderous item, it requires the Craft Wonderous Item Feat, the Wall of Fire spell, 7k and only 560 xp and two weeks time. Hardly outside the capabilities of a castle's Court wizard or alchemist. In fact at any given point in time 1 in 4 large towns and All cities have the personelle needed to make one of these. All communities of "large town" size and larger have the financial resources. Note that this true at any point in time. So if a large town had a 7th level wizard and a character with the craft wonderous item feat in it at any point it it's history, then it could easily have one of these endless energy supplies. This does not take into account public works that occur at the behest of the government or entrepenures. Note that this is only taking into account wizards as manufacturers. An artificer can make this item at 5th level, and so this opens things up to small cities (villages have the personelle, but they lack the funds). Face it. There is NO reason that endless energy supplies are not commonplace in any D&D world. Not necessarily. In fact the general broad view on magic would disagree with that summation. Wall of fire does fire damage to anyone who enters, or is near the effect. Now an obvious conclusion would be that the wall of fire should be heating the room as air rises and cold air takes its place. Yet there is no mention of this effect. In a typical dungeon room the wall should make things toasty pretty quick. Certainly this effect would be noted if it existed. So wall of fire does not heat up the surrounding area. Given that the rules are silent on this issue, one could just as easily interpret that to mean that they didn't bother with this detail because the spell is not normally permanent. It basically comes down to "what does the DM want to happen." Now if you want to shut down my "permanent wall of fire as an infinate energy source" idea, that's fine. There are PLENTY of other infinate energy sources in the game. Unlike you Stembolt, I am NOT an engineer. I am just a lay person when it comes to these things. But if I, as a lay person, can think up simple ways of transfering energy and putting it to work using magic as an infinate power source, then how much more likely is it that someone who STUDIES this stuff (like a wizard or an artificer) couldn't come up with something FAR BETTER than a simple man such as myself? There are good reasons why these things don't exist in any D&D world, and NONE of them have to do with game mechanics, physics, magic, or common sense. The reasons are simple: They don't exist in these campaign worlds because the story writers either didn't think of them, or they simply felt that they didn't go with the flavor they were trying to create for their campaign setting. There is one other reason that MIGHT apply, although I don't really think it holds water, and that's culture. One might argue that the fantasy cultures that exist in these worlds simply didn't recognize or need the devices in question. After all, in our own world, the Romans had invented the steam engine long ago, but they never recognized the potential of this device and simply used it as a parlor trick for the Emperial court. I suppose this could be true of Eberron (or any other world), but then our world didn't have gnomes, wizards and artificers in it either. So as I said, I don't think it really holds water.
DarthMidget 03-31-06, 11:37 PM	it is not unusual In my experience, for a group of 1st level adventurers to make it to 12th level in less than one year of adventuring (in game time). Why do you think there would be no supply? Remember in D&D the heroes (PCs) are unique individuals. Every sentient creature is not capable of achieving the same things that PCs are. As such I don't think a PC powerlevel comparison can be used to establish any sort of 'median' magical competency level in any D&D setting. Now I'm not necessarily saying there aren't a good number of 12th lvl sorcerors. I'm simply asserting that using a PC to determine how many there is, is not the best way to do it. The cost of this spell is a little over 25k. This is between the cost of a +3 and a +4 sword. Are you saying that there are NO +4 swords in Eberron? IIRC, you need to be a 12th level caster to make only a +3 sword. Well you make a good point I don't think you intended. :) Industrial goods wouldn't be the only thing spellcasters are required to make. Weapons are very high on the priority list. This doesn't change the amount of people required to 'magic-industrialize' an area, but it does decrease the resources. Face it. There is NO reason that endless energy supplies are not commonplace in any D&D world. Actually, there are very good reasons, which I will get to in a moment... Given that the rules are silent on this issue, one could just as easily interpret that to mean that they didn't bother with this detail because the spell is not normally permanent. It basically comes down to "what does the DM want to happen." Now if you want to shut down my "permanent wall of fire as an infinate energy source" idea, that's fine. There are PLENTY of other infinate energy sources in the game. Actually the rules are not silent on the issue. Spells do exactly what they state in the description. This has come up a number of times in Dragon Magazine. I can't remember the exact topic, it's the 'Ask the Sage' article. The one that deals with rules questions. I distinctly a remember a player asking if the spell 'Chill Touch' would affect inanimate objects. The ruling was that it would not since the spell specificies the target as a creature. In this way magic spells are not as flexible as a piece of technology that does something relatively equivalent. Unlike you Stembolt, I am NOT an engineer. I am just a lay person when it comes to these things. But if I, as a lay person, can think up simple ways of transfering energy and putting it to work using magic as an infinate power source, then how much more likely is it that someone who STUDIES this stuff (like a wizard or an artificer) couldn't come up with something FAR BETTER than a simple man such as myself? Well, you maybe a layman, but you are a person who has grown up in an Industrialized Society where science and technology is highly valued. The average person in a medieval D&D society would not even begin to approach things in the same mindset that you do. Consider this: the average Earth human has a far broader understanding of space, physics, engineering, etc etc than any fantasy game scholar. As such the things we might come up with they necessarily wouldn't. There are good reasons why these things don't exist in any D&D world, and NONE of them have to do with game mechanics, physics, magic, or common sense. The reasons are simple: They don't exist in these campaign worlds because the story writers either didn't think of them, or they simply felt that they didn't go with the flavor they were trying to create for their campaign setting. Very true in most instances. That still, however, does not mean that those societies are logically invalidated because they don't have something. The US could have had a manned station on the moon and astronauts on Mars a decade ago. The political will to put together the money, resources, and manpower, however, was not there. As such it did not occur. There is one other reason that MIGHT apply, although I don't really think it holds water, and that's culture. One might argue that the fantasy cultures that exist in these worlds simply didn't recognize or need the devices in question. After all, in our own world, the Romans had invented the steam engine long ago, but they never recognized the potential of this device and simply used it as a parlor trick for the Emperial court. I suppose this could be true of Eberron (or any other world), but then our world didn't have gnomes, wizards and artificers in it either. So as I said, I don't think it really holds water. Culture is far more important in technological applications than you give it credit. The best example is gunpowder. It existed for centuries in ancient China, but Europe developed firearms, cannon, and military explosives well before the Chinese did. Your Roman example is also a good one. The Romans saw no need for steam power since they had an endless quantity of slaves. So in short I am of the opinion that Khorvairan magic COULD produce an Industrial Revolution of sorts. It would be very, very different from our own experience, but it could happen. The best explanation for why it isn't there yet is that it simply hasn't progressed to that point. As our own history has shown mankind can have the knowledge to do something, but until the people with the knowledge, idea, and cultural application come along the knowledge itself doesn't matter. I believe that Khorvaire, particularly Breland, is on the cusp of a Magic-Industrial Revolution. It just hasn't happened...yet. ;)
Psifon 04-01-06, 02:46 AM	Actually the rules are not silent on the issue. Spells do exactly what they state in the description. This has come up a number of times in Dragon Magazine. I can't remember the exact topic, it's the 'Ask the Sage' article. The one that deals with rules questions. I distinctly a remember a player asking if the spell 'Chill Touch' would affect inanimate objects. The ruling was that it would not since the spell specificies the target as a creature. In this way magic spells are not as flexible as a piece of technology that does something relatively equivalent Energy attacks damage objects. In the case of a wall of fire, this is fire damage in the form of radient heat. It is beyond any semblance of common sense to think that this radiant heat could not boil water that is in the area. If you can boil water, you can put that energy to work in the form of steam. Again, I would like to point out that standing walls of fire are only one of dozens of infinate energy sources that magic makes available. Harnessing any of them allows you to functionally create perpetual motion.
Tonpa 04-01-06, 04:28 AM	Incidentally, this is one of the reason of the success of the Dragonmarked families. You can't just produce a wizard, you can't just pick someone and teach him magic. In the some way even if in different measure you can't produce clerics, bards or sorcerers. But produce a dragonamarked is reltively easy and reliable, all you is a dragonmarked person, someone of the same race and opposite gender, and 9 months (if human) or more. It don't works all the times but works way more often that for the other kind of spellcasters. This is funny and good way of thinking, but personal opinion nevertheless. Some of the gods in sovereign host and the artificer class specifically leans to the systematically producing engineers of magic part. Again, I like that the magic need something special to work, like gift or dragonmark, hen you need a insidious plan, combining some demonic texts and big pile of lightning harnessing pieces of machinery. If the end result is something like bonus feat and lost morality, its good way to put storyline in system wise. :) Just as an aside—I am not going to get drawn into the main line of this conversation—Hellcow has suggested the magic is even more common than the Eberron Campaign Setting book asserts: specifically, he noted that Aundair's emphasis on magic is such that even Aundairian peasants know how to cast a spell or two. His suggestion was to build a few peasants in each village with the Spell Hand feat from Complete Arcane, with the "flavor" assertion that they're actually casting the spells, rather than using Spell-Like Abilities. I feel that the main point here is not fully mechanize the Eberron economy, but gather some information of the feel of special few, like noble inventors or the heroes doing some major scientific revolution. I’m not certain where this comment from Hellcow is, and I would very much like to have the location. The idea for peasant magic is cool, like the real life people use magic all the time still, like spitting over your left shoulder. In Eberron this really works sometimes. This magic should, by definition, be of minor economic importance as nation wide, but of great importance community and family wise. It gives good feel to have the father of family getting out of his fine seat, the only real work of art in the room, and kneel before his quest and by some hard to understand words make his shoes clean and whole. Mechanically this is prestidigitation and repair. Also for the recipient this should be very high honor and also a show of knowledge and strength of family from the giver. I love the Head of big family having something special, so the fluff is good, in my opinion Well, you maybe a layman, but you are a person who has grown up in an Industrialized Society where science and technology is highly valued. The average person in a medieval D&D society would not even begin to approach things in the same mindset that you do. Consider this: the average Earth human has a far broader understanding of space, physics, engineering, etc etc than any fantasy game scholar. As such the things we might come up with they necessarily wouldn't. This is the one major point, in my opinion, that will affect the mechanical side and the fluff of Eberron. I have really gathered that Eberronians (what really is right word here?), have renaissance feel in them. While they appreciate their own Inventions, it really seems that most of the major wonders have been taken from the earlier times. Whit this in mind, people can imagine that the industrialization is not really gathering from every sector of life. This is one argument for the few great wonders and loads of prototypes. Also this view is not really controversial for that you do have inside lightening of everburning kind and you have magical lifts, I think even outside Sharn. The common peoples magic is also there, which could delete even more if the few PC classes in thorp’s and villages, which again emphasizes the importance of the player heroes. Again, for renaissance mindset, the philosophy of nature and the wonders of machinery are an aid for tasks in hand, but it also keeps in mind the old values of community and social obligations. The mindset is not maximizing the profit of one person, and in same time it’s working in independent mindset. You can really do stuff yourself from the scratch, but it’s too time consuming, so you hire somebody to help you. This is bit different now, when you know what you are aiming at, and you make part of it and gather groups to do the rest. Difference is in the mass of produced goods and the systematical approach to profit. Profit is an issue in economy, but not everything there is, you also have community, your family and friends and whole lot of institutions of communal, personal and religious kinds. Very true in most instances. That still, however, does not mean that those societies are logically invalidated because they don't have something. The US could have had a manned station on the moon and astronauts on Mars a decade ago. The political will to put together the money, resources, and manpower, however, was not there. As such it did not occur. For a side note, it is really possible that the task is indeed that the task is too great. Again I emphasize your thinking, that people should not be judged for their doing without knowing their background and motives on the subject. For game world, you can really visualize that a moonstation itself could have been impossible, and it can really still be. Some tasks can really be impossible, how ever simple they seem. Again I emphasize that people can really also see mankind as a force, that will win every obstacle, but you must understand that somebody else may view differently. You are a production of group of institutions and medias that affect the way you trust and fantasize. Culture is far more important in technological applications than you give it credit. The best example is gunpowder. It existed for centuries in ancient China, but Europe developed firearms, cannon, and military explosives well before the Chinese did. Your Roman example is also a good one. The Romans saw no need for steam power since they had an endless quantity of slaves. Good points, if somewhat flawed. To think that Chinese did have gunpowder a really long time is wrong. The misunderstanding grows from the exploding bamboo sticks they used as a form of firecrackers. They had gunpowder earlier than Europeans; with just not so long time difference that is commonly thought. Also they did produce flamethrowers and light cannons very soon, the strength of the barrels and the size and force of the individual pieces just never could match the later European models. The point is right still. There is many inventions that people would like to have in use if they would see the facts and the raw date, sadly the data is always biased or somewhat not there to be seen. Modern society uses bad options now, because some institutions on family values, gender roles and similar, and you use options that are made good by good advertising. The logical factor that you will use the best form of tool, in my vision, is not there. Still you can thrust people to see through all the marketing and similar forces, which are present in even earlier societies, and you are maybe right, it is really up to Game Masters vision. Energy attacks damage objects. In the case of a wall of fire, this is fire damage in the form of radient heat. It is beyond any semblance of common sense to think that this radiant heat could not boil water that is in the area. If you can boil water, you can put that energy to work in the form of steam. By rules this is not the case. Wall of fire damages only Creatures. By logic this is true heat warms water. By game reality, wall of fire does not heat room, because you can have it occupy all outer walls of castle that would really harm the structure in span of years. For the logical point of view the heat energy is not great, by counting the amount of fire damage, the area it affects is, counting in feet’s of area. The amount of fire damage present is nothing sort what is needed for good steam engine, while the area it affects is many times that of opened door of blast furnace, which is illogical, but magical. Wall of fire itself and similar effect should be thought, in my view, more from the effect wise. Wall of fire damages persons who are in area or cross it. Basically it is nothing more. Should you use it as a component of magical steam engine, or bind a fire elemental to the oven for additional heat? That’s really point of flavor and sounds reasonable, if that really is what you think would happen in your world’s mindset.
Khaine 04-01-06, 04:52 AM	Ah, thank you for pointing that out. This Thread has been a great assistance to developing my view in this aspect of Eberron. No prob Mass production of goods is what I’m afraid of, because it brings a bit too modern way of thinking to Eberron. ........ Therefore to produce one part of item, in modular way, to minimize expanses and unite this mass production with other producing units is too modern and out of character in my view. Mass production of simply goods wouldn't really be too setting busting. After all, in the Lord of the Rings movies Isengard has a pretty sweet mass production set up going and Middle Earth is low magic compared to Eberron. Classical thinking, as far I see it, is not really for concentrated maximizing the profit or “free lunches”. The maximum profit, and also the total destruction of enemy, way to thinking is modern in flavor and not really present in real historic Europe before scientific revolution and modernization. With this I mean in generic way society work, individual Investors can try to maximize their relative profit, which consist also his relation to the groups he belongs to. Tell that to the merchents of Venice during the Renaissance ;) Venice was, IIRC, a major power at the time because they had a virtual monopoly on the silk trade. It is the nature of people who are in business to seek profit. If they don't make profit, they can't pay their bills or feed their families. Seeking to maximize one's profit only makes sense, and it doesn't necessarily mean adopting a ruthless "take no prisoners" attitude (ala Corporate America). I really love the fact that there is journalism in Eberron, which bring so many good plots for new characters. I myself visualize that the printing process is very mundane affair, maybe with lose letters and all, but the magical part is the act of delivering the news to prints, printing the images and pictures in papers and distributing the paper. Ditto, love the journalistic part of things. I never really thought too much about exactly how the chronicles are produced, but I doubt that anything short of a printing press or magical equivilent could fulfill the sheer volume the continent-wide distribution would require (especially doing it every other day or so!). While Harry Potter style moving pictures in the chronicles would be way cool, I doubt that that would be financially feasible (except maybe as the delux edition ;) ). The feasibility of adding still pictures would be largely dependant on the method of printing. Btw, I recall that the Korranberg Chronicle at least has a deal with House Orien to distribute it. But even with the powers of the Mark of Passage the fact that the Chronicle gets delivered three times a week continent wide is nothing short of phenonmenal!
Khaine 04-01-06, 05:01 AM	While there are many pits of feudalism, monarchism and theocratic forces, the basic society has nations , strong mainly economically oriented groups and almost full citizen suffrage . Sorry to nitpick, but none of the nations of Khorvaire have citizen suffrage (with the possible exception of Breland, I forget how the parliment is selected). Suffrage = voting = a democratic or republican governmental model. All of Khorvaire's nations (save Breland) are feudalistic monarchies, dictatorships, or theocracies (Thrane). Edit - forgot the gnomes ;) Zilargo is a representative democracy.
Khaine 04-01-06, 05:08 AM	For Khorvaireans being stupid if they don’t use magic and technology in hand to hand, which I presume you meant, is a bit harsh comment. I guess that kinda came across wrong ;) What I meant was that anything people in the Renaissance could concieve of, Eberronians could too. Khorvaire is actually more advanced than Renaissance Europe given the presence of magic.
Tonpa 04-01-06, 05:23 AM	Sorry to nitpick, but none of the nations of Khorvaire have citizen suffrage (with the possible exception of Breland, I forget how the parliment is selected). Suffrage = voting = a democratic or republican governmental model. All of Khorvaire's nations (save Breland) are feudalistic monarchies, dictatorships, or theocracies (Thrane). Edit - forgot the gnomes ;) Zilargo is a representative democracy. Very good point you have here. For the Suffrage part I meant that people have right of schooling, can represent them selves in court and are pretty much equal in the eyes of the law, which is essence the same thing, that democratic ideal is. Utopist it is because there is no voting procedure there, which would enforce the system of equal opportunities process. Either this means that, for example, in Thrane the Theocratic governmental machinery consists members of general public in all tree major parts of governmental powers, or there is in fact some other form of democratic institution working what we are not aware of. This meaning that, in effect, Thrane in republic while in paper it is theocracy. The difference is small, but I feel that the interest groups for universal education or similar must be represented somehow. This all comes from my feel that if commoners are having education, they must have some form of impact in governing their affairs. If this governing factor is not anyway impaired by race, gender or social status then we speak suffrage in effect, if not full real life suffrage.
Khaine 04-01-06, 05:25 AM	I'm saying the people to implement the changes aren't there. Tech proliferates because anyone can use and implement em. Magic requires a personal touch, a touch requiring rare, high level people. Not all magi-tech innovations require high level individuals. Craft Wondrous Item only requires a 3rd level caster after all. As for the water wheel...40 gallons a minute isn't going to do all that much in terms of pure kinetic power... No, but 180 gallons per minute (geyser mode) is. Actually, I don't know where you got the 40 gpm number. Stream mode gives you 10 gpm, and fountain mode gives you 30 gpm.
Khaine 04-01-06, 05:30 AM	you need a 12 caster level to make wall of fire permanent, this mean a 12 level artificer. Granted, but that's only if you use the permenancy spell. Easy enough to create a wondrous item to bypass that problem. I think that those magic refrigerator are based around Prestidigitation. Which makes it even easier ;)
Tonpa 04-01-06, 05:42 AM	Tell that to the merchents of Venice during the Renaissance ;) Venice was, IIRC, a major power at the time because they had a virtual monopoly on the silk trade. It is the nature of people who are in business to seek profit. If they don't make profit, they can't pay their bills or feed their families. Seeking to maximize one's profit only makes sense, and it doesn't necessarily mean adopting a ruthless "take no prisoners" attitude (ala Corporate America). I’m afraid that I can’t really tell it to merchants of Venice, even if I would very much do that. :) For your vision of Venice I must point out that the maximization of profit is by definition the Corporate America attitude, and that is really modern way of thinking. Doing profit is very human thing and it has been present from ancient time. Still I’m emphasing the fact that we must understand the amount of profit and the amount of effort that people would put in making profit on earlier time. They had their obligations for their family, church, relatives, common interest groups and their immortal soul. These were there not because they were forced to appreciate them, they really felt they needed to do communal duties while traveling the seas of the world and also think for they competitors, while doing profit. Investing and intuition did have room, and many prototypes and the like were made, but they were done with the other interest in mind. Those who would try to concentrate mainly for making money were there, but considered sinful and somewhat different. In this environment it was really hard to come up with good “free lunch” plots, and to get them to spread. The difference is, as always on the mentality of profit. It is certain that the merchant risked his life and his family’s life, when he invested on some new merchandise, and he was forced to do this because of the need to do profit. Also he did it again for human vice to gamble. All the while they had other things too, other thing with equal or greater importance. By system, people in earlier time were not min-maxed in economy; they were full characters with other aims and need also. :)
Khaine 04-01-06, 06:31 AM	By rules this is not the case. Wall of fire damages only Creatures. By logic this is true heat warms water. Logic trumps the rules every time, except in cases where the rules are clearly established for a game balance ( :yuck: I hate that term) reason. The place of game rules is to facilitate the resolution of situations with an element of uncertainty, not absolutely define game reality. The rules are tools, not handcuffs.
Khaine 04-01-06, 06:51 AM	In this environment it was really hard to come up with good “free lunch” plots, and to get them to spread. Actually feudalism is the second best free-lunch scheme in history, with the first being the concept of the tithe ;) By system, people in earlier time were not min-maxed in economy; they were full characters with other aims and need also. :) ;) I'll agree with that. But the simple facts of economics remain. People in business will seek profit, not necessarily to the exclusion of all else, but profit nonetheless. If a person can make more profit by using magical means to power relatively simple technology than by using magic alone, they will mostly likely combine the two.
Tonpa 04-01-06, 06:52 AM	Logic trumps the rules every time, except in cases where the rules are clearly established for a game balance ( :yuck: I hate that term) reason. The place of game rules is to facilitate the resolution of situations with an element of uncertainty, not absolutely define game reality. The rules are tools, not handcuffs. So true, but in this case the logic of industry and the energy production is delivered from the rules . So if the logic of “by rules I could make this and this and therefore that” is made, then by definition the rules should be followed, in my view that is. If by other side, the question is in fluff factor “should the machinery of that and that kind work, and could it suit Eberron by these definitions”, then the element of game logic is in order, again my opinion only. My point there was that argument from “rules say I can make thing called wall of fire ” is interesting, but hardly the main point when discussing the industrialization of Eberron. I express that to device things in game term is fine, giving players something to bonder, but for storytelling point of view they are secondary. The philosophy of economy and machinery use is what I have been aiming at, again my skill in language foils my effort. :( O why this all cannot be in Suomeksi. (Meaning Finnish) :)
nyysjan 04-01-06, 06:58 AM	O why this all cannot be in Suomeksi. (Meaning Finnish) :) Koska useimmat täällä kävijät eivät osaa suomea.
Tonpa 04-01-06, 07:18 AM	Actually feudalism is the second best free-lunch scheme in history, with the first being the concept of the tithe ;) Good notice there. :) Still, I would lift marketing and use of machinery better, because they lift value by product, not by job in hand, like feudalism. But you have very good point there. Also it suits well to the view of the medieval thought to gather the gain margin, and I use gain here instead of word profit in purpose, from social institution network. Magic could be seen also as a social force, which by definition elite could appreciate and use. Therefore the link to technology has been made in philosophical point of view also. We must still remember that if we go with this conclusion, then we could again emphasize the unique faction of every construction, like social handwork of an ideal, in contrast of physical sciences manufacture. Therefore again come to the conclusion of prototype oriented, and pulp way of seeing Eberron. ;) I'll agree with that. But the simple facts of economics remain. People in business will seek profit, not necessarily to the exclusion of all else, but profit nonetheless. If a person can make more profit by using magical means to power relatively simple technology than by using magic alone, they will mostly likely combine the two. Yes, if we conclude that he sees magic as a physical tool to be used and he has the familiarity to use these together. I see magic as dynamic happening, as I have said earlier, which leads me to think its utilization could be quite hard to reproduce. This is, if you appreciate that magic is indeed something else, than just different kind of graviton. If magic can take form of say pixie, it is by itself an equal or greater complexity than little ecosystem and has its own laws of nature, which could chance dynamically. By system cure potion is cure potion, and you can reproduce them ad infinitum. By fluff factor they are all unique, in my view. We don’t need rules to cover the different flavors that the magical element gives, but we can use it as inspiration for fluff. This would lead me to think again the magical utilities of more complex kind, like the machinery we are thinking, to form as a prototypes and even more unique in form, than simple magical potions and swords. In this reality the people who live in middle of these little miracles, that break to form a unified definition will interest them, and they will invest they time and effort there, but the flavor is again more unique type. And again, this is only my opinion, different views work.
Tonpa 04-01-06, 07:22 AM	Koska useimmat täällä kävijät eivät osaa suomea. Holy Cow! Oh I mean; voi hyvänen aika! Hieman tipahdin tuolilta kun näin tuon. :) Todella mainiota tuoda hieman kielellistä "sivistystä" tällekin ryhmälle.. :D
il Kav 04-01-06, 09:32 AM	Tell that to the merchents of Venice during the Renaissance ;) Venice was, IIRC, a major power at the time because they had a virtual monopoly on the silk trade. It is the nature of people who are in business to seek profit. If they don't make profit, they can't pay their bills or feed their families. Seeking to maximize one's profit only makes sense, and it doesn't necessarily mean adopting a ruthless "take no prisoners" attitude (ala Corporate America). Venice was a major power because had a large and mass produced fleet of warships. The "Arsenale" was the first "modern" factory in the world (having work-division, specialization in only one task of the workers, and even a "proto-taylorist" system of production). I'm pretty sure in Zilargo there's something similar when the gnomes bind their elementals. And low-level Cannith workers unite their forces (via magical labs) to create mid or high level items. Eberron is clearly on the way of the first industrial revolution... (I'm sorry for my horrible english... these topics are very difficult to explain in a -for me- foreign language...)
Tonpa 04-01-06, 09:59 AM	Venice was a major power because had a large and mass produced fleet of warships. The "Arsenale" was the first "modern" factory in the world (having work-division, specialization in only one task of the workers, and even a "proto-taylorist" system of production). I'm pretty sure in Zilargo there's something similar when the gnomes bind their elementals. And low-level Cannith workers unite their forces (via magical labs) to create mid or high level items. Eberron is clearly on the way of the first industrial revolution... Arsenal is indeed a form of manufacture, which I would keep as a meaning for unified line of workstations and people concentrating on their own specific duties. Arsenal is also utilizing minor forms of machinery and therefore is by all means very modern style of production facility, specifically in ideology. The factory here, as I use it, refers to manufacture evolved to use additional work tools as the main producing force, specifically the machinery itself. The Arsenal system, and later the French and British form of cotton industry, are great leaps to modern way of thinking in production, and also to form institutions on that. Venice’s style of arsenal production is by definition major revolution in thought itself, but it didn’t immediately had consequences in other industries. The philosophical change is by its nature slow process, because the human thinking needs to modify its methods. To modify wholly the production sector, there needed to be other philosophical revolutions, which oddly are in place in basic dnd. For Eberron as a world to move to industrial revolution is possible, but not entirely certain. There is possibilities to use plotlines for and against the social movements that lead to industrialization, which are again for game masters to decide. To make certain assumption on our real life history is to take deterministic method on the world, which is not wrong, but again you must understand that different assumptions can be as accurate. For pulp feel I still feel the prototype paradigm as best for me, while I really appreciate you bringing the arsenal point out. Both are very labor oriented and while both have very modern philosophical connotations, still let the medieval flavor to flourish. (I'm sorry for my horrible english... these topics are very difficult to explain in a -for me- foreign language...) I have felt that people here are very understanding on that, which is nice.. :)
stembolt 04-01-06, 02:58 PM	Tech proliferates. ANYONE can make tech...you just the need the right, if specialized training, and an expert with enough help can make strides in production that simply begin to scale with specialization. Assuming you mean mechanical/electromechanical devices you are actually wrong here. The qualities needed to make technology (intelligence, creativity, ambition, physical proficiency) are actually very rare. In fact most people cannot perform the simplest trained job. If you gave me 100 random people maybe 10 of them could ever solder professionally, given unlimited training. Maybe 5 would be any good. 1 of them could be something more. We have so much technology because of mass production. If you don’t believe me, go build a radio. Not from a kit, from scratch. Given that the rules are silent on this issue, one could just as easily interpret that to mean that they didn't bother with this detail because the spell is not normally permanent. It basically comes down to "what does the DM want to happen." Now if you want to shut down my "permanent wall of fire as an infinate energy source" idea, that's fine. There are PLENTY of other infinate energy sources in the game. A wall like that if created by using burning gas would overheat any dungeon room in seconds killing everyone by superheating the air that they need to breath. Of course you have done my job handily in proving yourself wrong. How can magitech be broken if what metters is what the DM wants? Unlike you Stembolt, I am NOT an engineer. I am just a lay person when it comes to these things. But if I, as a lay person, can think up simple ways of transfering energy and putting it to work using magic as an infinate power source, then how much more likely is it that someone who STUDIES this stuff (like a wizard or an artificer) couldn't come up with something FAR BETTER than a simple man such as myself? A point for actual thought would be to look and see what side the engineer is on. Again, I would like to point out that standing walls of fire are only one of dozens of infinate energy sources that magic makes available. Harnessing any of them allows you to functionally create perpetual motion. Name a few then. Energy attacks damage objects. In the case of a wall of fire, this is fire damage in the form of radient heat. It is beyond any semblance of common sense to think that this radiant heat could not boil water that is in the area. If you can boil water, you can put that energy to work in the form of steam. Really, because I essentially proved that the heat is in fact not radiating. The wall is doing damage to people, but it is not extending beyond the area of effect. By this logic the water is taking damage, but not necessarily boiling. The rules never say that water boils away. And, this is science guy talking here, the fire may not be hot enough to simply boil the water. Water has a number of properties that make it technologically useful and one of those is the transition point. It requires something like 400 times as much energy to boil water as it does to make it warmer by 1 degree. A large source of water would simply get warm.
Just another user 04-01-06, 03:13 PM	This is funny and good way of thinking, but personal opinion nevertheless. Some of the gods in sovereign host and the artificer class specifically leans to the systematically producing engineers of magic part. artificers are almost as rare as wizards in Eberron, to me this means that you can't just teach of to be one, you need The Gift. and Gods' servant in Eberron are mostly Experts, few Adepts and very few Cleric, again you can't pick a children and train him to be a cleric, it is something you are born with, or you are chosen for by something but you can't train someone to be a cleric, not in Eberron. Magewright is the only exception, that's why they are so common, and the peasent that know some spell (i.e feat) is in the same category.
Just another user 04-01-06, 03:23 PM	Granted, but that's only if you use the permenancy spell. Easy enough to create a wondrous item to bypass that problem. you were aguing the use of a 7th level artificer with two scrolls and to that I was answering. A wondrous item could be easier if the GM allow it, but wondrous items have still a minimum caster level, IIRC o and for a permanet wall of fire item it would be quite high. Another problem is how fast does NPC gain (or regain) XPs, the permanent wall of fire item you mentioned costs around 500 xp, how much time have to pass after a npc have built one before he can build another? Which makes it even easier ;) yes, but it need a much more lower level caster, a simple magewright could make it. Just because it exist, is not proof that the wall-of-fire based boiler is widely present in Eberron.
Tonpa 04-01-06, 03:30 PM	artificers are almost as rare as wizards in Eberron, to me this means that you can't just teach of to be one, you need The Gift. and Gods' servant in Eberron are mostly Experts, few Adepts and very few Cleric, again you can't pick a children and train him to be a cleric, it is something you are born with, or you are chosen for by something but you can't train someone to be a cleric, not in Eberron. Magewright is the only exception, that's why they are so common, and the peasent that know some spell (i.e feat) is in the same category. I am in same mindset that you are, but I will still insist that it is viable to see Clerical schooling. And I think that Artificer class is also combination of schooling and gift. Both are quite rare yes, but present still. Can I see clerics doing engineering, no I really cannot, but it is possible. Can I see that artificers are schooled from younger sons and girls of noble households? In fact I can. This means that some of the few nobles have Artificers in family, more than burger families or commoner families. This is because I have this Dr. Frankenstein thing going and I still see him as a aristocrat as well as an scientist. My minor point here being for you saying; “you cannot take child and train him”, which I think is an opinion and not strict rule delivered from books. It is a good opinion, but opinion still. By the way; you can make good Dr. Frankenstein with Magewright and Aristocrat levels, so I don’t really need the martial PC classes.
Just another user 04-01-06, 03:40 PM	I am in same mindset that you are, but I will still insist that it is viable to see Clerical schooling. And I think that Artificer class is also combination of schooling and gift. Both are quite rare yes, but present still. Can I see clerics doing engineering, no I really cannot, but it is possible. Can I see that artificers are schooled from younger sons and girls of noble households? In fact I can. This means that some of the few nobles have Artificers in family, more than burger families or commoner families. This is because I have this Dr. Frankenstein thing going and I still see him as a aristocrat as well as an scientist. My minor point here being for you saying; “you cannot take child and train him”, which I think is an opinion and not strict rule delivered from books. It is a good opinion, but opinion still. By the way; you can make good Dr. Frankenstein with Magewright and Aristocrat levels, so I don’t really need the martial PC classes. I'm not sure about the artificer, but I'm sure about the cleric, it is viable? yes. It is possible in Eberron? no. In Eberron clerics are rare, I could agree that you could need schooling to become a cleric, but schooling is not enough to become one. If it wasn't so then every temple in Eberron would have a cleric in it, and it is not so.
Just another user 04-01-06, 03:43 PM	Assuming you mean mechanical/electromechanical devices you are actually wrong here. The qualities needed to make technology (intelligence, creativity, ambition, physical proficiency) are actually very rare. In fact most people cannot perform the simplest trained job. If you gave me 100 random people maybe 10 of them could ever solder professionally, given unlimited training. Maybe 5 would be any good. 1 of them could be something more. We have so much technology because of mass production. If you don’t believe me, go build a radio. Not from a kit, from scratch. Ah, but you can make a kit to build a radio. You can't make the same for a wand. You need a wizard to build a wand, you can't just take the single pieces and the instruction how to assemble them and let Average Joe build it, it would never work. But you can do that for a radio, or for any other mechanical electric device. You can prepare the pieces and dumb down the instructions enough that a person of average intelligence could be able to build a working one with time) with magic items that is not possible. And that is the difference.
nyysjan 04-01-06, 03:51 PM	Ah, but you can make a kit to build a radio. You can't make the same for a wand. why not :confused: just have the wizar/artificer do the necessary enchantments to the pieces, and when they are assembled in proper order, they form into a wand that cant be taken appart. :D there just is no point to it, but nothing in the rules say that it can't be done. same thing with eldricth machines, you might need a wizard or artificer to make the parts, but there is nothing that says you need to actually be a caster to build/assemble it. and as for there not being any mass assembly lines/factories, then what do you think that creation forges are.
stembolt 04-01-06, 03:55 PM	Ah, but you can make a kit to build a radio. Ah, extrapolating from zero to infinity. My proof that something that seems simple is very hard has nothing to do with wizards. Besides again, the point is that you can’t use a kit to build this radio. Absurdly complex? Don’t know where to start? Ok, now simply take a wall of fire and make it power something. Oh and you have to invent all the science involved. You don’t know PV=nRT or any of a hundred basic science principles. Engineering is more difficult than you imagine.
Tonpa 04-01-06, 03:57 PM	I'm not sure about the artificer, but I'm sure about the cleric, it is viable? yes. It is possible in Eberron? no. In Eberron clerics are rare, I could agree that you could need schooling to become a cleric, but schooling is not enough to become one. If it wasn't so then every temple in Eberron would have a cleric in it, and it is not so. Ok. I appreciate your point and this is really semantics. I am all with you that Clerics are really rare, only few can become one of the church martial arm. But… If you have some reference to note, I trust you completely, but now I must say that to say that it is not possible to school cleric in Eberron is too harsh. Because the divine power is not by definition coming from any direct religion connection, but some kind of persons own dedication to ideal I see that to support this dedication is key factor. I’m also certain that you need also some potential to be so illuminated. Still I feel that the schooling is key factor and maybe even the only factor for coming to wield divine power. Again this is only an opinion, and one that I my self don’t fully support, but feel that is viable.
Tonpa 04-01-06, 04:01 PM	and as for there not being any mass assembly lines/factories, then what do you think that creation forges are. And now I have missed something, what exactly is creation forge. I presume it is some mass assembly line from your post but I don’t really remember them. Warforged forges by any change? If so can you use them to produce other stuff to?
Tonpa 04-01-06, 04:25 PM	Assuming you mean mechanical/electromechanical devices you are actually wrong here. The qualities needed to make technology (intelligence, creativity, ambition, physical proficiency) are actually very rare. In fact most people cannot perform the simplest trained job. He did specify special training, being apprenticeship for example. And the examples there has been used are been mechanical or thermal energy engines, not electromechanical devices. Complex? Yes they are, but also the practitioners are by definition the experts of their trade and also inhumanly smart, and by training equal or in higher grade than any of us. So in my view they could make prototype style device mongering, and I still see it going in pulp genre well. I can also visualize that there could be many technomagical wonders, which could also be as complex as major clock-mechanics, while I don’t prefer this approach for flavor. If people have a vision for Eberronian development, there is good ways to support that.
Tonpa 04-01-06, 04:43 PM	Ok, now simply take a wall of fire and make it power something. Oh and you have to invent all the science involved. I presume that he won't really need to invent everything. Eberron has had inventions of their own, and if you presume they are equal or better value than our antique or medieval tomes, you do have good idea of the scientific principles you are working on. Yes, much of the scientific data has been revised and improved from earlier times, but much of the earlier study has had good implications. They managed to do real life wonders and count things that many of us would think impossible, without computers, that is. Engineering is more difficult than you imagine. Luckily the players don’t need to invent thermal engine themselves, and they don’t need to produce pressure or make good valves. They only need to have image of inventor personality and let him do the maths and tests and whatnots. The inventor doesn’t do it alone either, because if players character has the idea that the prototype is possible, then the world has that idea too, meaning there is ideological possibility that the community sees the process viable and there will be some research material on subject.
stembolt 04-01-06, 05:09 PM	First off, Tonpa I assume you are not so good with English (actually, you are not good; my assumption is that you have a good reason). Try to use simpler words. Many of the words you used don’t mean what you think they mean. He did specify special training, being apprenticeship for example. And the examples there has been used are been mechanical or thermal energy engines, not electromechanical devices. He said “technology,” a wand or magic item is technology. (it is a thing that does something) He meant (or should have meant) mechanical/electromechanical device. I presume that he won't rally need to invent everything. He needs to invent everything to make the device work. Consider this: IRL the scientific principles for stem power were discovered by the greeks (Heronas 1st century BC). And the first practical steam engine was built in 1698 (by Thomas Savory). And the improved steam engine was built by James Watt in 1768. 70 years, breakneck pace. Anybody following this discussion yet?
aelryinth 04-01-06, 07:03 PM	No information sharing. Tech is science. Magic is magic. Don't go slinging terms around trying to confuse people. Keep it simple, we all understand it, and you keep pushing this button as if it makes you sound superior. The Wall of Fire is again a wonderful idea. Now, you need a 5th level artificer or a 7th level caster to make one, with 500 xp to pony up AND the right feat...and thats assuming he knows how to make a wondrous item do what you seem to want it to do. This isn't a cantrip he's dealing with...it's a freaking 10 x 10 WALL OF FLAME. And at 180 gallons a minute, is that geyser going to be able to spin a heavy enough flywheel to power a 'factory'? Likely no...so you'd need multiple layouts of 9000 gp, all of them subject to theft and/or breakage, and suddenly just dropping the thing in a river doesn't seem like such a bad idea. I mean, your rival pays a magewright a few hundred gp to stroll by your arcane fountain, cast Shatter, and you are out 9000 gp. And that's exactly what would happen, unless you spent even MORE money to make sure it wouldn't. Again, the personal limits are the key. I also think your assertation that people can't accomplish incredible things or be trained to do them as very un-informed and childish. We happen to live in a society where freedom of choice of lifepath and learning is a byword. If it means surviving, eating, shelter, freedom from pain, then given the training and resources any person can learn almost anything he needs to to survive. The fact that the average person can't NOW has little to no bearing on what he MIGHT be able to do, given the proper incentive. The radio kit is a marvelous example. Even if the mage or artificer prepared it, so what? A person subs for the homunculous...the wizard or artificer is still neccessary, there's still time limits involved, still one at a time, and it STILL requires usage of a higher level person with access to magic and XP to spend. You haven't gotten away from the limitations on the system. ==Aelryinth
Psifon 04-01-06, 09:49 PM	I have another idea for a perpetual motion machine. Here is a crude schematic: -----------Dispel Magic Zone------------- -Heavy Weight down ---- Shrunk Weight Up- -Heavy Weight down ---- Shrunk Weight Up- -Heavy Weight down ---- Shrunk Weight Up- -Heavy Weight down ---- Shrunk Weight Up- -Heavy Weight down ---- Shrunk Weight Up- -Heavy Weight down ---- Shrunk Weight Up- -Heavy Weight down ---- Shrunk Weight Up- ----Plate that Casts Shrink Itme 1/round---- So how this works is that you have a conveyor that holds heavy weights (rocks or whatever) on the left side. Gravity drops these onto the plate that shrinks them. this causes them to lose weight, they are then lifted on the right side, by the counterweight of the heavy weaghts on the left side of the conveyor. This brings them back up into the dispel magic zone, which returns them to their normal size and weight. Gravity pulls them down the left side again, and the cycle repeats itself endlessly. Now all you have to do is attach gears and a crank shaft to the thing, and you have another endless power source. A 3rd level artificer can make this one. Hmm... Maybe I should get a life ;)
Tonpa 04-02-06, 04:58 AM	First off, Tonpa I assume you are not so good with English (actually, you are not good; my assumption is that you have a good reason). Try to use simpler words. Many of the words you used don’t mean what you think they mean. Ok, thanks for your advice. Duly noted. He said “technology,” a wand or magic item is technology. (it is a thing that does something) He meant (or should have meant) mechanical/electromechanical device. In the generic discussion, I think we also made some difference between magic and technology. Which is semantics basically, keeping the full scientific approach away from magic, which by definition cannot be subjected to define rules. My point here was that to make a difference between the radio example, that you made and the thermal energy pump he made. I see that earlier scientists get the latter quite well, while the first one is really out of their reach. Again, this is only my opinion. He needs to invent everything to make the device work. Consider this: IRL the scientific principles for stem power were discovered by the greeks (Heronas 1st century BC). And the first practical steam engine was built in 1698 (by Thomas Savory). And the improved steam engine was built by James Watt in 1768. 70 years, breakneck pace. Anybody following this discussion yet? And could you consider this: IRL the information of these research projects were written down, and there were many prototypes of steam engine between these, and during their testing time. All these made information available on this project, in Eberron more than in IRL. You have good mediums to spread the data around, you have total literate population and you have institutions that support the scientific process. You also have institutions that work against your projects, but this leads to unique prototypes. So my point is; the person does not need to invent everything, he must utilize the information available. Edit: And yes, the process could be slow, but that’s for GM to decide. I my self like that there are mostly prototypes, which I presume I have made clear, and not mass production.
stembolt 04-02-06, 05:06 AM	Tech is science. Magic is magic. Don't go slinging terms around trying to confuse people. Keep it simple, we all understand it, and you keep pushing this button as if it makes you sound superior. No no no no no. The key is you don’t understand it. If you understood it, it would make sense. There is this common thought (perpetuated by authors of moderate intelligence) that magic is in conflict with science. That is simple balderdash. If magic existed it would be part of science. Science is a system where you try to understand the world. If magic existed science would be used to explain it. I also think your assertation that people can't accomplish incredible things or be trained to do them as very un-informed and childish. We happen to live in a society where freedom of choice of lifepath and learning is a byword. If it means surviving, eating, shelter, freedom from pain, then given the training and resources any person can learn almost anything he needs to to survive. The fact that the average person can't NOW has little to no bearing on what he MIGHT be able to do, given the proper incentive. Heres the thing, people don’t. Most people are drones (commoners) a few are slightly more skilled (other NPC classes) and a handful are well trained (PC classes). In fact, the handful of engineers, doctors and entrepreneurs (etc.) form a real parallel to Eberron. Freedom of choice is just words to most because they are locked in a prison of their own talents. I have another idea for a perpetual motion machine. Here is a crude schematic: 1) Little power output. 2) Based on having a magic item that does something completely off the rulebooks 3) Actually one large item and should be constructed as such. This example is even more dismissible than the wall of fire.
Khaine 04-02-06, 05:10 AM	My point there was that argument from “rules say I can make thing called wall of fire ” is interesting, but hardly the main point when discussing the industrialization of Eberron. I express that to device things in game term is fine, giving players something to bonder, but for storytelling point of view they are secondary. I view the rules for individual spells more as examples of what can be done at a given spell level rather than carved-in-stone laws that cannot be changed. It's one of the ways I agree with you regarding the dynamism of magic. The philosophy of economy and machinery use is what I have been aiming at, again my skill in language foils my effort. :( O why this all cannot be in Suomeksi. (Meaning Finnish) :) Yeah, it is kinda difficult. :( I think, based on what I've gleaned from your posts, that our perspectives aren't too far off from each other though. We both seem to agree that an industrial revolution of sorts is likely in Khorvaire, the only difference is that I see it as being further along than you do.
Khaine 04-02-06, 05:15 AM	Yes, if we conclude that he sees magic as a physical tool to be used and he has the familiarity to use these together. Magic can have direct physical effects, so it is not unreasonable to see it as a physical tool (in the same way that fire or electricity can be seen as physical tools).
Khaine 04-02-06, 05:28 AM	I'm pretty sure in Zilargo there's something similar when the gnomes bind their elementals. And low-level Cannith workers unite their forces (via magical labs) to create mid or high level items. Eberron is clearly on the way of the first industrial revolution... Defintiely. I see Eberron as actually in the first stages of an industrial revolution. (I'm sorry for my horrible english... these topics are very difficult to explain in a -for me- foreign language...) No prob, not everyone has the fortune (or misfortune depending on perspective) to be born in an English speaking country. ;)
Khaine 04-02-06, 05:42 AM	you were aguing the use of a 7th level artificer with two scrolls and to that I was answering. :surrender ;) Another problem is how fast does NPC gain (or regain) XPs, the permanent wall of fire item you mentioned costs around 500 xp, how much time have to pass after a npc have built one before he can build another? This is the point where the rules of the game clash with the "reality" of the setting. The people of Eberron don't have XP - that is a game balance mechanic, not an in setting reality. Whatever energies (most likely personal magical energy or "karma") Eberronians use to make magic items logically seems to regenerate to some rather quick (in terms of months and years) interval. If it didn't House Cannith wouldn't be nearly as prolific item crafters and there wouldn't be nearly as many magical goodies floating around the setting as there are. Of course, the common use of dragonshards could have a big effect on this. Just because it exist, is not proof that the wall-of-fire based boiler is widely present in Eberron. Actually I don't see the wall-of-fire-boiler as all that practical of a system - too much work when there are easier ways of getting the same effect. I was just commenting to the effect that similar "technologies" (in effect at least) already exist in the setting.
Tonpa 04-02-06, 05:44 AM	No no no no no. The key is you don’t understand it. If you understood it, it would make sense. There is this common thought (perpetuated by authors of moderate intelligence) that magic is in conflict with science. That is simple balderdash. If magic existed it would be part of science. Science is a system where you try to understand the world. If magic existed science would be used to explain it. This is mostly because the “authors of moderate intelligence” use concepts that lead by themselves out of the science framework, And by Science you will try to understand them, but which are not bound by the scientific laws, from where we gather our arguments. From Wikipedia: The supernatural (Latin: super- "exceeding" + nature) refers to forces and phenomena which are beyond ordinary scientific understanding. Concepts in the supernatural domain are closely related to concepts in religious spirituality and metaphysics. An anomalous phenomenon is an observed phenomenon for which there is no agreeable rational explanation. Because such observations don't fit into the established framework or consensus reality, they can be the subject of controversy. By these definitions magic is part of scientific study, yes. Rationalized with scientific data, no. Do you have theories how magic influence world, yes. Are they same as physical laws, maybe, Can these theories and observed phenomena conflict with scientific information, yes. Should we keep observed scientific laws out when we talk magical constructions, maybe? The point he made was valid I think, if a bit harshly worded out. Heres the thing, people don’t. Most people are drones (commoners) a few are slightly more skilled (other NPC classes) and a handful are well trained (PC classes). In fact, the handful of engineers, doctors and entrepreneurs (etc.) form a real parallel to Eberron. Freedom of choice is just words to most because they are locked in a prison of their own talents. Again you have two opinions how people are and how people could manage things. Good points, but could you by any change make them a bit more tolerant? Real life examples are fine, but they are only tools still. We don’t really have much more to work with than real world history, which is full of controversy and myths. I myself like the idea that every human is capable of great things, which could be true in real world. In game terms the commoner who makes the idea of some innovation, by reading an book or getting an vision, could develop his or her skills. By rules definitions and by Eberron fluff, this commoner develops levels of expert, magewright or wizard. It could really be by change that you become a person of legend, maybe because the latent magical and scientific research has reached this point. This sounds god to me, if somebody likes that the reason is completely made possible by magic, it’s good view and that’s it.
Khaine 04-02-06, 05:48 AM	Ok, now simply take a wall of fire and make it power something. Oh and you have to invent all the science involved. You don’t know PV=nRT or any of a hundred basic science principles. Well, there is always trial and error. Lots and lots of error ;) Engineering is more difficult than you imagine. Modern engineering, definitely. Way beyond what my little mind can handle ;) Primitive engineering I can handle though.
Khaine 04-02-06, 05:56 AM	And now I have missed something, what exactly is creation forge. I presume it is some mass assembly line from your post but I don’t really remember them. Warforged forges by any change? If so can you use them to produce other stuff to? From the look of the illustrations in the ECS, a Creation Forge would seem to work somewhat like a mold - raw material is put into the Forge and it "grows" a warforged in X time then opens and spits the new warforged out. I doubt they could be used to make other things.
nyysjan 04-02-06, 06:29 AM	creation forges have little actual crunch written about them but the concensus has them as large magical factories (in effect, house sized artifacts/eldritch machines) that can create almost anything that an PC/NPC caster with proper item creation feats could, except that you don't have to have the actual feats, know the required spells or even be of high enough level. they can make items (magical or mundane) in bulk, dozens or even hundreds at a time, you merely put in the base material components take the schema (AKA the magical blueprint) and a Cannith heir with proper dragonmark and fire up the forge. the creation forges are plot devices that can be used by the DM, and to explain why it's so easy to find low level items, or even higher level items (up to caster level 12, after that the items should be harder and harder to find the higher in level you go) the industrial revolution is not coming, it has already happened, but the magical items are so expensive that it doesn't really show except with higher levels and wealthier NPCs. Magic is science, it can be tested and made to bring predictable results, the wizards are the scientists of eberron, studying the workings of the world from theoretical point of view Artificers are engineers that understand the principels of magic and know how to put it to practical use magewrights are the mechanics who don't necessarily understand the principles of the things they do, but have been thought to do mainentance and basic repairs and building druids clerics and other spellcasters classes (paladins, Rangers and bards) are not a part of the infrastructure (altough individuals might be) they have other part to play in eberron.
Tonpa 04-02-06, 06:42 AM	I view the rules for individual spells more as examples of what can be done at a given spell level rather than carved-in-stone laws that cannot be changed. It's one of the ways I agree with you regarding the dynamism of magic. You are really right here, in my view. The examples concerning the wall of fire were not best still. Too common for my taste, I presume. And also I don’t want to start thinking if the wall eats all air out or similar. If goes a bit mjeh. Good points still. Binding a fire elemental to oven is cool by the way. Making a ball of iron and using heat metal as an component for craft wondrous item is fine too. Everything is so personal. I think, based on what I've gleaned from your posts, that our perspectives aren't too far off from each other though. We both seem to agree that an industrial revolution of sorts is likely in Khorvaire, the only difference is that I see it as being further along than you do. Yes, you are right there. My point is for the mentality being already somewhat there, but the knowledge and skill lacking behind, leading this human folly thing. In my vision the world is full of unique constructs, which by definition are hard to mass-produce, and try keep the wondrous factor of their existence in them. The reason really is, that I feel that being commonplace, the impact of constructions lessens its storyline value. This is not bad thing itself, but by flavor I like that Frankenstein’s monster is unique, or that the Nemo’s submarine is really wonder. But this is mainly personal preference. Magic can have direct physical effects, so it is not unreasonable to see it as a physical tool (in the same way that fire or electricity can be seen as physical tools). Not unreasonable by any mean, I have tried to make it clear that I’m not denying these kinds of assumptions. There are ways to see it in that way, yes. The point I was making was more of the mentality way. There is a way of seeing magic as more than a tool. It may be maybe dangerous or maybe unreliable. In GM’s vision the community makes an opinion what kind of stand it takes concerning magic, and this is unique by any given GM. The published material about Eberron supports almost every conceivable paradigm, so interesting views are nice to hear. I myself feel that the magic would be seen as body of dead person. Mostly people react badly when you mess with the bodies of your relatives, but they could appreciate the products delivered. Some societies could threat it abominable to even think of disturbing the dead, while other could think it’s childish and uncivilized to think that scientific study is wrong. Each magic user brings his or her institutional framework with them, delivered from the society group he comes from.
Tonpa 04-02-06, 07:01 AM	creation forges have little actual crunch written about them but the concensus has them as large magical factories (in effect, house sized artifacts/eldritch machines) that can create almost anything that an PC/NPC caster with proper item creation feats could, except that you don't have to have the actual feats, know the required spells or even be of high enough level. they can make items (magical or mundane) in bulk, dozens or even hundreds at a time, you merely put in the base material components take the schema (AKA the magical blueprint) and a Cannith heir with proper dragonmark and fire up the forge. I must say that in this point my view is fully against the consensus. Dear mother of inventions! That is so mjeh! the industrial revolution is not coming, it has already happened, but the magical items are so expensive that it doesn't really show except with higher levels and wealthier NPCs. That is not really the industrial revolution I’m looking for. But the revolution of ideas is part of the revolution in question, and some writers also speak the population boom as an industrial revolution, so the term itself is evasive. But if you mean that few, quite expensive, usually hand-made items of high quality, with magical principles united to scientific knowledge, equals industrial revolution, then industrial revolution that is. Magic is science, it can be tested and made to bring predictable results, Then magic is not the Magic as what the term Magic means to me; magic in question here is a form of energy , which is named magic and made available to general use. This is opinion I can appreciate, while not prefer. Also I can see there being a form of energy, which has effects similar than the Magic but is not in fact Magical . While using this form of energy, the users presume they are wielding true Magic , while they are only wielding some form of general physical principle. the wizards are the scientists of eberron, studying the workings of the world from theoretical point of view Artificers are engineers that understand the principels of magic and know how to put it to practical use magewrights are the mechanics who don't necessarily understand the principles of the things they do, but have been thought to do mainentance and basic repairs and building I can go with this assumption.
nyysjan 04-02-06, 07:44 AM	I must say that in this point my view is fully against the consensus. Dear mother of inventions! That is so mjeh! one needs to remember that the creation forges are not truly understood, and their use has much trial and error included. and you need a cannith heir with a proper mark to use one only 1 in 100 in eberron has blood ties to a dragonmark house, of these people, no more than half produce the least mark, there are 12 marks in existance, wich still lessens the numbers of cannith heirs and if we assume that you need a lesser mark (don't remember which mark was needed) and a proper power grante by it wich divides the number of creation forge users yet by half (and you need to be atleast 5th level to poses lesser mark through dragonmark heir PrC) They can make new creation forges, but the people needed to use them are in short supply. That is not really the industrial revolution I’m looking for. But the revolution of ideas is part of the revolution in question, and some writers also speak the population boom as an industrial revolution, so the term itself is evasive. But if you mean that few, quite expensive, usually hand-made items of high quality, with magical principles united to scientific knowledge, equals industrial revolution, then industrial revolution that is. i would see the industrial revolution as the ability to reliably mass produce items of normal to high quality Then magic is not the Magic as what the term Magic means to me; magic in question here is a form of energy , which is named magic and made available to general use. This is opinion I can appreciate, while not prefer. Also I can see there being a form of energy, which has effects similar than the Magic but is not in fact Magical . While using this form of energy, the users presume they are wielding true Magic , while they are only wielding some form of general physical principle. here's where we differ in opinions the magic, to me, is not in the supernatural, but in the mystery. In Eberron (and all D&D, by RAW) is predictable in it's results it can be studied, understood and made produce predictable results but remember, that people of Eberron are far from having a complete understanding of the energy called magic. the best wizards and artificers of Khorvaire struggle to understand the simplest concept of the thaumaturgical (AKA Magical) achievments and creations of the giants. Giants where but children compared to the Dragons of their age. And the Dragons yet study, still try to learn more, both of the prophecy and of magic I can go with this assumption. Good to know we can agree on something
Tonpa 04-02-06, 08:49 AM	one needs to remember that the creation forges are not truly understood, and their use has much trial and error included. and you need a cannith heir with a proper mark to use one… They can make new creation forges, but the people needed to use them are in short supply. Yes, but still that sound pretty much factory, more robot-oriented factory than we have now, in fact. Which is very mjeh for me, but everybody can and will have their vision. Don’t really see that in Eberron books, and that’s maybe because my subconscious has played tricks with my reading. I do not like, but that’s me going whining. :) i would see the industrial revolution as the ability to reliably mass produce items of normal to high quality But I feel that that would make them relatively inexpensive. When compared to the average income of common experts, the cost of magical equipment is really high. I know that this is because of game balance, but without lowering the price, I don’t really see mass-production supported by the game material. With reduced price, I see your point. Again not something I prefer. here's where we differ in opinions the magic, to me, is not in the supernatural, but in the mystery. In Eberron (and all D&D, by RAW) is predictable in it's results it can be studied, understood and made produce predictable results I have felt it differently, but that is an opinion, and yours is as valid as mine. Don’t really now the RAW so intimately, mostly because I have concentrated mostly on the feel you get from the text. But I can see there could be passages supporting the “predictable magic” paradigm. I prefer “dynamic magic” my self, but other way is valid and well. but remember, that people of Eberron are far from having a complete understanding of the energy called magic. This gives some help for my “prototype oriented way of seeing invention in Eberron” way of thinking, which I appreciate you to pointing out. And these seem to be a fact by RAW, which gives some plot hooks for the “human folly” idea.
nyysjan 04-02-06, 09:15 AM	Yes, but still that sound pretty much factory, more robot-oriented factory than we have now, in fact. Which is very mjeh for me, but everybody can and will have their vision. Don’t really see that in Eberron books, and that’s maybe because my subconscious has played tricks with my reading. I do not like, but that’s me going whining. :) the information is base to converstions in these boars for the past 2 years, there is very little crunch (or fluff) actually written about the creation forges, because they have very little to do with the actual adventures except as a plot device. Sufficiently advanced technology becomes indistinguishable from magic Sufficiently advanced magic becomes indistinguishable from technology there are many parallel developments between the two golems/robots airplanes/airships normal lifts/magical lifts of Sharn etc. But I feel that that would make them relatively inexpensive. When compared to the average income of common experts, the cost of magical equipment is really high. I know that this is because of game balance, but without lowering the price, I don’t really see mass-production supported by the game material. With reduced price, I see your point. Again not something I prefer. this is where we, once again, differ the fact that the base materials used are expensive makes the items expensive, the fact that house cannith has a virtual monopoly does not make them cheaper, transportation is still either slow or relatively expensive, and the production capability is still relatively low. Future may bring changes to these facts. peasants and ordinary workers can't affor healing potions or masterwork weapons, but the nobles buy these things in bulk, i'd think that most nobles, when going to hunting would take a bag filled with potions of healing with them, but the peasant who hits himself to the foot with the shovel won't have other healing than possibly an expert with skill focus "healing" to help him I have felt it differently, but that is an opinion, and yours is as valid as mine. Don’t really now the RAW so intimately, mostly because I have concentrated mostly on the feel you get from the text. But I can see there could be passages supporting the “predictable magic” paradigm. I prefer “dynamic magic” my self, but other way is valid and well. i see no reason that dynamic and predictable woul in any way cancel each other, it may be because i'm not a native speaker of english language. clarification woul be welcome. This gives some help for my “prototype oriented way of seeing invention in Eberron” way of thinking, which I appreciate you to pointing out. And these seem to be a fact by RAW, which gives some plot hooks for the “human folly” idea. we may not be on the same page yet, but atleast were in the same section of the library :D
il Kav 04-02-06, 09:24 AM	I'm for the "magic is technology" party... I take this like a physical law in Eberron: "if, after performing a determinate ritual (studying spells in the morning) you take a little sphere of guano, you throw it into the air saying the word Abracadabra rotating your hands and eyes you'll have an explosion of fire" The argument that "people make the wonders, not the machinery" makes no many sense to me... I'm (quite) sure that a warforged creation forge can operate having only magewrights (and one artificer maybe)... Like a modern research laboratory: you'll have many technics and one or two researchers per section... I'm (quite) sure that 95% of the human population simply can't be a researcher and a innovator (a scientist). So isn't so different saying that 95% of the human population can't be a wizard or an artificer (or even a fighter, or a cleric, et cetera) Nobody fully understand magic in Eberron... but we're having problems to fully understand "scientific" phenomena like true nature of the light, and the actual form of the atom...
Tonpa 04-02-06, 10:22 AM	the information is base to converstions in these boars for the past 2 years, there is very little crunch (or fluff) actually written about the creation forges, because they have very little to do with the actual adventures except as a plot device. Sufficiently advanced technology becomes indistinguishable from magic Sufficiently advanced magic becomes indistinguishable from technology Yes, I have read this many times in sci-fi novels, pulps and in comics. Usually it is some technologically oriented person puzzling the masses whit his great powers, which are revealed to be only technological by some way. This I can really appreciate, and even use in games. Still I would keep some unreliability in magic, much in my games to be exact. Again, this is point of preference. there are many parallel developments between the two golems/robots airplanes/airships normal lifts/magical lifts of Sharn etc. I prefer airships for airplanes, while zeppelins are really cool. I don’t really like all the comparative technological, or magi-tech gizmos they inserted in Eberron, for their close connection to real life similarities. I still see the point for their insertion here. Good storyline can really need trains after all.. this is where we, once again, differ… peasants and ordinary workers can't affor healing potions or masterwork weapons, but the nobles buy these things in bulk, i'd think that most nobles, when going to hunting would take a bag filled with potions of healing with them, but the peasant who hits himself to the foot with the shovel won't have other healing than possibly an expert with skill focus "healing" to help him And, for my view this is not Industrial revolution. Masses don’t have the goods, they are not commonplace and they still need some personal touch. This equals to me highly professionalized artisanship, which is by feel, ok. Still not exactly my forte, but close enough. i see no reason that dynamic and predictable woul in any way cancel each other, it may be because i'm not a native speaker of english language. clarification woul be welcome. Dynamic, for me, means a force of constant change or force that that induces constant change on subject. Dynamic force is antithesis of stasis and static force, meaning force that reduces entropy and change. By dynamic magic I mean that it’s form of rules changes constantly, so it’s near impossible to predict its effect to it’s surrounding or subject. I use near impossible term here to acknowledge that there can be spells in Eberron, which effect are represented by rules, and that are not in fact exact. And for this I mean that I feel that the effect varies for every time you use the spell, maybe not very much but still. This is very personal thing and fundamentally affects how utilized magic works. I have noticed that my view is quite far from RAW, so I try to move couple of bookshelves closer.. :)
Tonpa 04-02-06, 10:35 AM	I take this like a physical law in Eberron: "if, after performing a determinate ritual (studying spells in the morning) you take a little sphere of guano, you throw it into the air saying the word Abracadabra rotating your hands and eyes you'll have an explosion of fire" For physical laws there is some probability, which is what I can appreciate. So I don’t really have any problems here, I just think in my mind there is little variation in every effect, every time the included symmetry of elements is little tiny bit different and so for. I will include that the effect you are producing varies a pit too and there is probability to induce the said effect, and “hot damn” it works. I can go with this too. I must say that I don’t really like the spells as they are written, but they are easy to use. Because of the rules are what they are, the systematical approach to magic is possible and supported by RAW. Still feel it’s a bit mjeh. :) I'm (quite) sure that 95% of the human population simply can't be a researcher and a innovator (a scientist). So isn't so different saying that 95% of the human population can't be a wizard or an artificer (or even a fighter, or a cleric, et cetera) I myself feel that they can, and it’s basically up to community, social institutions and fate if you like, that who will be the innovator. People are different, I understand, but I still feel the potential is much larger than 5%. But this is only how I feel it to be. I’m a humanist after all.. :)
Just another user 04-02-06, 12:09 PM	why not :confused: just have the wizar/artificer do the necessary enchantments to the pieces, and when they are assembled in proper order, they form into a wand that cant be taken appart. :D there just is no point to it, but nothing in the rules say that it can't be done. same thing with eldricth machines, you might need a wizard or artificer to make the parts, but there is nothing that says you need to actually be a caster to build/assemble it. but you always need a wizard to do it and as for there not being any mass assembly lines/factories, then what do you think that creation forges are. Plot devices, like it is said in the ECS.
Psifon 04-02-06, 01:03 PM	1) Little power output. 2) Based on having a magic item that does something completely off the rulebooks 3) Actually one large item and should be constructed as such. This example is even more dismissible than the wall of fire. Sure, it's off the rulebooks. But the rules DO allow for the creation of non-standard magic items of your own design. In fact, almost all magic traps fall into this category. OK, Stembolt, if you're so smart, being an engeneer and all, why dont YOU come up with a magic-powered perpetual motion machine? I'd like to see what you can do with this idea.
il Kav 04-02-06, 05:28 PM	For physical laws there is some probability, which is what I can appreciate. So I don’t really have any problems here, I just think in my mind there is little variation in every effect, every time the included symmetry of elements is little tiny bit different and so for. I will include that the effect you are producing varies a pit too and there is probability to induce the said effect, and “hot damn” it works. I can go with this too. I must say that I don’t really like the spells as they are written, but they are easy to use. Because of the rules are what they are, the systematical approach to magic is possible and supported by RAW. Still feel it’s a bit mjeh. :) I like your interpretation of magic. Perhaps the ritual is so long and difficult that every time is made minor variations can occurr (spelling?)... perhaps every magic wielder has a minor "personal interpretation", so every fireball he/she cast will have some distinguishable "personal" feature... I myself feel that they can, and it’s basically up to community, social institutions and fate if you like, that who will be the innovator. People are different, I understand, but I still feel the potential is much larger than 5%. But this is only how I feel it to be. I’m a humanist after all.. Ok, you're really a humanist ;) I have a more pessimistic approach (maybe because I'm an economist...), but the point's the same: maybe with a better welfare, a better education, we'll have many more articers and wizards in Eberron...
Subtle Knife 04-02-06, 06:06 PM	Guys, I have to point out here that THIS IS A GAME BASED ENTIRELY ON FANTASY! The economy is partially driven by crystals that fall from the sky. As with any fiction, we must suspend our disbelief in order for it to be fun - once you start putting a microscope on it, it will inherently develop all sorts of holes and flaws for one reason and one reason only - it isn't real! Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go hire someone to kill all the giant fire-breathing beatles out of my barn. SK
aelryinth 04-02-06, 06:07 PM	No no no no no. The key is you don’t understand it. If you understood it, it would make sense. There is this common thought (perpetuated by authors of moderate intelligence) that magic is in conflict with science. That is simple balderdash. If magic existed it would be part of science. Science is a system where you try to understand the world. If magic existed science would be used to explain it. Heres the thing, people don’t. Most people are drones (commoners) a few are slightly more skilled (other NPC classes) and a handful are well trained (PC classes). In fact, the handful of engineers, doctors and entrepreneurs (etc.) form a real parallel to Eberron. Freedom of choice is just words to most because they are locked in a prison of their own talents. 1) Little power output. 2) Based on having a magic item that does something completely off the rulebooks 3) Actually one large item and should be constructed as such. This example is even more dismissible than the wall of fire. On the contrary, I do understand it. You, on the other hand, are making an erroneous assumption. You are assuming that magic is bound by static laws, and these laws overlap, synergize, or remain seperate and don't interfere with scientific laws. NONE of these assumptions has to apply to magic. In my own campaigns, science as we know it just doesn't work. Why? Because magic throws it all out of whack. Simple examples. 1) Electricity doesn't always follow the path of least resistance. This 'unlaw' makes throwing lightning bolts possible. It also makes wiring and any form of electricity based tech utterly impossible. Willpower is more important then conductivity, in some cases...the 'human element'! 2) Spontaneous combustion exists, and the more combustible, the more spontaneous! In short, the element of fire is active and wants to spread the joy. So explosives, gunpowder, volatile chemicals mass-produced...just isn't going to happen. The element of fire will spark and BOOM. When? Why? How? Who knows? There's no law about it...although sufficent willpower can redirect this tendency elsewhere. See bat guano and fireball for more details! 3) Emotion is power, logic is control of power. Try writing a law about whats better to have when controlling the unleashed might of a meteor swarm...rage against the target, or serenity? The wizard and sorceror will have different ideas, and both are completely right. 4) Philosiphical forces have fundamental effects on existence. Law and Chaos are two parts of this...so are Good, Evil, Nature, etc. IF nature says that artificial compounds degrade swiftly...there's no reason for it, they just do. The four alignments are constantly pushing on the laws of magic, warping them over time. The fireball of today might not be the fireball of yesterday, or tomorrow...and some people may notice it, some won't. Magic certainly worked differently depending on where you were in the multiverse, in something as broad as Moorcock's realm of Elric books. Laws change...magic is change, science is about better defining of the laws. Some device may work simply because Evil says it does, or not work because Law says no, or work but do the wrong thing because Chaos had a whimsy fit. Ergo, tech and magic are NOT the same thing, and won't fit well into a broad statement of magic=technology. ====Aelryinth
Subtle Knife 04-02-06, 06:17 PM	Thank you!!! SK
DMDaddy 04-02-06, 06:21 PM	Guys, I have to point out here that THIS IS A GAME BASED ENTIRELY ON FANTASY! The economy is partially driven by crystals that fall from the sky. As with any fiction, we must suspend our disbelief in order for it to be fun - once you start putting a microscope on it, it will inherently develop all sorts of holes and flaws for one reason and one reason only - it isn't real! Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go hire someone to kill all the giant fire-breathing beatles out of my barn. SK My sentiments exactly. I follow the lead of the characters with this respect. And, my characters are leaning toward a high magi-tech. As far as giant fire-breathing beatles, once, I hired some adventures to kill some, and it wasn't fun when they realized that some Fire Giants were also there gathering the fire beatles for light and heat reasons.
stembolt 04-02-06, 10:02 PM	This is mostly because the “authors of moderate intelligence” use concepts that lead by themselves out of the science framework, And by Science you will try to understand them, but which are not bound by the scientific laws, from where we gather our arguments. Yeah they try to, that’s what’s wrong with them. You cannot “be” and be unbound by the laws of science. Again you have two opinions how people are and how people could manage things. Good points, but could you by any change make them a bit more tolerant? It would be nice to live in a world where that was an opinion and might be wrong. On the contrary, I do understand it. You, on the other hand, are making an erroneous assumption. You are assuming that magic is bound by static laws, and these laws overlap, synergize, or remain seperate and don't interfere with scientific laws. Again, a demonstration of massive ignorance. A law of science is only true, if it is true. If magic exists science must include the way that magic exists. In my own campaigns, science as we know it just doesn't work. Why? Because magic throws it all out of whack. Of course science works differently, magic exists. No one ever said that the laws of science are the same on Eberron as Earth. Simple examples. Since all of these foolish examples are not part of the real Eberron they don’t need any comment. Ergo, tech and magic are NOT the same thing, and won't fit well into a broad statement of magic=technology. Of course they aren’t. No one has ever argued that magic and technology are the same. Devices that use magic are obviously technology though. Guys, I have to point out here that THIS IS A GAME BASED ENTIRELY ON FANTASY! The economy is partially driven by crystals that fall from the sky. As with any fiction, we must suspend our disbelief in order for it to be fun - once you start putting a microscope on it, it will inherently develop all sorts of holes and flaws for one reason and one reason only - it isn't real! Completely untrue. Fantasy environments are based on world models that have different natural laws than the real world (for example, magic is real). However, within this structure they must maintain verisimilitude. Fantasy writings must often struggle to be more realistic than real fiction. This is because a reader’s perception is already twisted to accept the world concepts that characters must act as would be expected. Remember that this entire line of inquiry started with a statement of Eberron being wrong in a number of regards. As it stands that has been pretty clearly denounced.
aelryinth 04-03-06, 12:17 AM	Again, a demonstration of massive ignorance. A law of science is only true, if it is true. If magic exists science must include the way that magic exists. . In the spirit of your reply: What overwhelming simplicitude and lack of intellectual effort. Someone has never played Shadowrun, where science works as we know it, yet there is magic. Of course science works differently, magic exists. No one ever said that the laws of science are the same on Eberron as Earth.. And yet, your blanket statement includes any conceivable world or setting. Refer to above, showing your lack of imagination. Since all of these foolish examples are not part of the real Eberron they don’t need any comment.. And shows your intellectual myopia! I'm pleased to reveal your lack of breadth to everyone. You go from all all-inclusive statement to dismissing examples that disagree with you. The typical display of those with a false argument. Of course they aren’t. No one has ever argued that magic and technology are the same. Devices that use magic are obviously technology though.. Not by your own definition. Technology operates by scientific law, and magic does not have to be scientific nor operate by laws. Completely untrue. Fantasy environments are based on world models that have different natural laws than the real world (for example, magic is real). However, within this structure they must maintain verisimilitude. Fantasy writings must often struggle to be more realistic than real fiction. This is because a reader’s perception is already twisted to accept the world concepts that characters must act as would be expected. Remember that this entire line of inquiry started with a statement of Eberron being wrong in a number of regards. As it stands that has been pretty clearly denounced. Not by you. As a matter of fact, all you've done is insult the other members on the boards by inferring we can't think, reason, and we're inferior by not agreeing with you. Typical defenses of the intellectually blind. ===Aelryinth
Khaine 04-03-06, 04:59 AM	What overwhelming simplicitude and lack of intellectual effort. Someone has never played Shadowrun, where science works as we know it, yet there is magic. As a long-time player of Shadowrun, I can tell you this - Stembolt is RIGHT in his assertations about science, technology, and magic. Simply looking up the definitions of the words should make that totally obvious. And if you object to the tone of his responses, how about trying not to use the same tone yourself (like you have in every post you've made in this thread)?
Psifon 04-03-06, 09:38 AM	Frankly I agree. The intellectual pi$$ing contest is getting pretty old.
Kreistor1 04-03-06, 11:09 AM	I'd hardly call it intellectual. They're arguing over an element in a dream world. Frankly, any of them that think they can be inherently right is just deluded.
Tonpa 04-03-06, 11:58 AM	I'd hardly call it intellectual. They're arguing over an element in a dream world. Frankly, any of them that think they can be inherently right is just deluded. Still they make good points, which can be used for strengthening the fluff. I feel that the language used, has been somewhat less than delicate, but maybe not intentionally. There have been points that are really good, and some I can appreciate.
Siran Dunmorgan 04-03-06, 12:10 PM	As far as giant fire-breathing beatles, once, I hired some adventures to kill some, and it wasn't fun when they realized that some Fire Giants were also there gathering the fire beatles for light and heat reasons.Back in the day, we used to have a nanny for our kids. One day, returning from a trip to the grocery store, she rushed into the house, as happy and excited as I'd ever seen her. "I stepped on a Beatle!" she yelled, as soon as she was through the front door. I thought about this for a moment—while she caught her breath—and made some comment to the effect that stepping on a beetle was hardly something to get worked up about. "No, no!" she laughed: "a Beatle! Ringo Starr! He was coming out of Rio Grill[1] when we were going back to the car! I was watching the girls and didn't see him and stepped on his foot! He talked to me! Ringo Starr! I gotta call my mom..." Never heard about fire giants collecting 'em, though. It's my understanding that they're really rare now. And "giant, fire-breathing?" I know they were really popular in the late sixties, but that's more a fifties way of describing a band. —Siran Dunmorgan [1] Near the corner of Highway 1 and Rio Road in Carmel, California. Really popular. We order to-go from them quite a bit, though it's usually too crowded for a really comfortable sit-down dinner. She was apparently leading the kids back to the car from the fish market—the name of which escapes me at the moment—immediately next door.
Kreistor1 04-03-06, 01:17 PM	Tonpa, it's not real. Even when one argues over something that is real, the person who makes the best argument and maybe even wins is not inherently right. Making a good argument is not actually being right: it is just being a good debater. Good debaters will beat bad debaters, regardless of whether they take the side they believe is true or not. The arguments may sound wonderful, but that's a testament to the skill of the debater, not the rightness of their argument. So when arguing about something that is fantasy, what are you doing? Just demonstrating you can argue about something that you can't be inherently right or wrong about. It's the safest topic in the world, and a debaters dreamland. Only the debate itself is real, since all of the arguments themselves are inherently fantastic (as in the fantasy definition, not the "oh that's neat" definition of fantastic).
Tonpa 04-03-06, 01:47 PM	Tonpa, it's not real. Even when one argues over something that is real, the person who makes the best argument and maybe even wins is not inherently right. Making a good argument is not actually being right: it is just being a good debater. Good debaters will beat bad debaters, regardless of whether they take the side they believe is true or not. The arguments may sound wonderful, but that's a testament to the skill of the debater, not the rightness of their argument. Good points I said, not Right points, Good . And I would not say they were wonderful either, but some that I can value. I'm not good in valuing argumentative skills, but I must also say that I know a little bit of debating. Still, while I’m not so interested in the "rule's point of view" or the semantics, I found the argumentation here of some good resource for widening my somewhat too narrow view. So when arguing about something that is fantasy, what are you doing? Just demonstrating you can argue about something that you can't be inherently right or wrong about. It's the safest topic in the world, and a debaters dreamland. Only the debate itself is real, since all of the arguments themselves are inherently fantastic (as in the fantasy definition, not the "oh that's neat" definition of fantastic). Yes, that’s true, but if by debating we can form some set of rules, we can also form foundation for some view on the subject. I have written down something I think about the subject before, and while it has not been induced much what you could call a conversation; I still hope it has made some impression. The same can really be said about the comments made here by others, I myself acknowledging their influence. The Arsenal point was really good in fact, and there has been other too. In this sense I feel you should not discredit as whole. Most people can make their assumptions and personal views independently, so even intimidating style of argumentation isn’t going to spoil them. It’s still rude , but not discrediting by itself. Edit: But this conversation is off-topic, so please continue on the main points.
stembolt 04-03-06, 11:01 PM	What overwhelming simplicitude and lack of intellectual effort. Someone has never played Shadowrun, where science works as we know it, yet there is magic. Science, by definition, includes any “forces” present in a world. In shadowrun, science includes magic. Not by you. As a matter of fact, all you've done is insult the other members on the boards by inferring we can't think, reason, and we're inferior by not agreeing with you. Typical defenses of the intellectually blind. If the shoe fits. But I am not insulting anyone. I am simply correcting something that is wrong. If you want to be insulted for sticking to an obvious wrong, the shoe fits. Tonpa, it's not real. Even when one argues over something that is real, the person who makes the best argument and maybe even wins is not inherently right. If you are referring to the “Science includes magic” debate, you have again made one of the classical fantasy/sci-fi intellectual blunders. Of course science is real and all encompassing. F/SF is a window into the real world. And if you don’t believe me go to one of your local Sci Fi conventions. (Besides what are you doing here if you don’t like to discuss fantasy.) It is also worth noting that I am not debating. This problem is far to simplistic to warrant debate. I am just explaining. Science is a statically defined subject. A debate would have to involve opinion or value judgment. Like “Which is better rogue or cleric?” Also a debate could be argued from either side. This discussion is one sided.
Khaine 04-04-06, 01:47 AM	I'd hardly call it intellectual. They're arguing over an element in a dream world. Frankly, any of them that think they can be inherently right is just deluded. One can be right about the definitions of the words "science" and "technology" and thus what they encompass. Beyond that you are correct.
aelryinth 04-04-06, 03:19 AM	Actually 'science', by normal definition, only deals with physical forces and the natural world. Magic, by its nature, extends beyond the physical world to the metaphysical, the philosophical, and the spiritual, none of which are covered by the definition of 'science'. Furthermore, science assumes the existence of natural laws to work from and with. Magic by its nature may or may not have those laws...it may only have Rules, with lots of Exceptions. It certainly won't adhere to the Scientific Method. By definition, science won't encompass 'magic' unless you change the definiton of magic or start adding words like 'magical science' to extend the meaning of science specifically to magic...and then it becomes an oxymoron, kind of like stating the Science of Wild magic or Chaos Magic...trying to apply law to where there is none. And I didn't blatantly make a frontal assault on anyone's opinion until Our Good Friend decided to share his intellectual deficency with us. And yes, I did go read Merriam-Webster, and just couldn't find the support for Stembolt's declaratives in there without adding on descriptors. Just as 'religious science' is not a part of 'science' per se (it's got its own little subcategory because it doesn't deal with the physical world and has no laws or scientific method), 'magic' is not inclusive into the meaning of the word 'science' either. ===Aelryinth
Tonpa 04-04-06, 04:40 AM	aekryinth Very good argumentation there, and also polite which I appreciate. And I’m not being sarcastic here. Thank you for your effort. From wikipedia: Science (from Latin scientia - knowledge) refers to the system of acquiring knowledge – based on empiricism, experimentation, and methodological naturalism – aimed at finding out the truth. The term science also refers to the organized body of knowledge humans have gained by such research. Most scientists maintain that scientific investigation must adhere to the scientific method, a process for evaluating empirical knowledge under the working assumption of methodological materialism, which explains observable events in nature as a result of natural causes, rejecting supernatural notions. Less formally, the word science often describes any systematic field of study or the knowledge gained from it. Particular specialized studies that make use of empirical methods are often referred to as sciences as well. Naturalism (philosophy) is any of several philosophical stances which do not claim that phenomena or hypotheses commonly labeled as supernatural necessarily do not exist or are wrong, but insist that they are not inherently different from natural phenomena or hypotheses, and that both supernatural and natural phenomena and hypotheses can be studied by the same methods. Methodological naturalism assumes that observable events in nature are explained only by natural causes without assuming the existence or non-existence of the supernatural. The less formal approach could encompass studied magic, I presume. By the word science, the supernatural is left out of the equations by definition. (That was a bit a surprise to me, to be hones). The point that was made earlier was also that magic by dnd RAW is systematical and by no mean Magical in the words primary sense. This can really be argued by introduction of spells, which seem to follow certain rules, which could be presumed to lead to assume laws in magic processes. Paradoxically introducing laws your view can encompass other laws to equation, which includes some physical laws, which then introduce technological devices we have heard or seen. This way of thinking is possible, and taken fully could lead to nice systematically working environment. I must say I myself prefer that magic is dynamic and therefore unpredictable, and also that magic doesn’t really follow laws. I like that wizards pretend that it does. And in their mind it does, in fact, because their individual observation says so. EDIT: And they could also say that Magic is Scientific and go on with that assumption . Should there be common magic-tech engines? If GM likes them, there is really nothing that says otherwise. And here I mean by RAW, which I have found some like to use. ;) Here my personal opinion goes for the society pint of view. Introducing devices is coming from the common situation in the group, nothing is coming from vacuum. By this I mean that I see that the society itself introduces the inventions, inventors being only vessels of the society. If in question is player that is doing the inventing, then the society’s will should be modified there to suit the needs of this player, if it suits the vision of other players and GM. When the Invention is introduced it comes a part of the system, which will include competition and plots on the ownership of the invention. If the invention is becoming a major point in game, it should be included by world flavor, to increase the effective plots and groups involved. Again, this is only my opinion.
stembolt 04-04-06, 08:49 AM	Actually 'science', by normal definition, only deals with physical forces and the natural world. Magic, by its nature, extends beyond the physical world to the metaphysical, the philosophical, and the spiritual, none of which are covered by the definition of 'science'. Remember that the dictionary is looking at magic in our world. Not in a world where magic exists. In a world where magic is not synonymous with “********.” It is encompassed by science. Basically the same argument applies to religion. In our world there is no proof of religion. In Eberron people are casting divine spells and talking to angels.
Roxlimn 04-04-06, 10:25 AM	Khaine: To be more precise, I meant that the applied science-based concepts people keep trying to apply to magical spells and effects in Eberron wouldn't make sense to a Khorvairian because it takes more effort for them to do it that way that to simply do it the way they're already doing it. Joe Farmer can't normally afford a magical contrivance but his superiors and landlords easily can. In fact, a moderately successful merchant can. The question here is "Why are you saying that Eberron is wrong for saying that the level of scientific progress is low enough that what you propose simply won't work?" It can have higher levels of tech. Heck, it could be FF or Full Metal Alchemist with guns and propeller aircraft if you want, but that isn't where the default setting is. To make the point more apparent: Bob doesn't care about making Joe & friends' lives easier, Bob cares about making a profit. A magic millstone can only due one thing - grind grain. A magic waterwheel can do a lot of things with the proper planning to back it up (irrigate fields, grind grain, mill lumber, be a continual source of clean water, make lakes/rivers, etc). All things the Bob can charge Joe, his friends, and the rest of the farmers in the area for. The magic millstone might be a bit cheaper, but the magic waterwheel can make him a bigger profit in the long run. Odds are, if Bob is in the market for magic in the first place, he can afford to buy either item. Obviously, Bob buys the magic waterwheel. In fact, what you mean to say is: A magic waterwheel can do a lot of things with the proper technological know-how to back it up. It can do all those things, but it will need machinery and this machinery will need engineers and such to maintain it and make sure it works. And you'll need to make the parts for all of these machines. When a part breaks, you need to custom make more parts. Yes, replaceable parts is an ancient technology in Chinese history, but this isn't China. It's Eberron. Bob doesn't care about making a profit because the development of his social structure hasn't progressed to the point where he cares about profits. He sort of cares about profits, but he doesn't actually have competitors, so efficiency is less rewarded, and of course, there are more interesting things to be worried about, such as politics and social mores and such. Bob the Landowner isn't just a manager of a task force, you see. That's a modern concept. He's also a sociopolitical leader, and he has to wear many hats and perform different functions. Frankly, he doesn't have all that much time to worry about profit margins. As long as it's enough in the black, he doesn't care how much. A magic decanter of endless water can do all the things you say, but a magical grindstone is probably much cheaper, because all it can do is grind grain, and it works without all the complicated machinery to build and bother and maintain. There is something to be said about cheap, reliable specialized machines, and in this case, magic items. Will he care about its function about making lakes and rivers and clean water? Probably not. He can't just randomly create lakes and rivers, for example. That probably has effects on weather and rainfall patterns, the purview of House Lyrandar and the Raincaller's Guild. There's probably laws about using that kind of magic. Can he use it as a source of clean water? Probably, but given that he's paying the same Guild to ensure clean regular rainfall anyway, it's probably only going to matter in an emergency situation. Cute, but relatively less urgent or immediately useful. Will he want to mill lumber? Why? He's a field owner, not a lumber mill owner. He won't need to irrigate much (that Raincaller's Guild again), etc., etc. All things considered, I rather think that the magical grindstone will be more marketable. Of course, Bob the Landowner doesn't really need to use a versatile device to charge Joe Farmer anything. he can do that with or without a device, and it doesn't matter how efficient or versatile the device is. He'll charge Joe Farmer to within an inch of starving, and he'll do it regardless of what he's got. I'm not objecting to a magical waterwheel on the basis that it uses brains. I'm objecting to it in that it seems anachronistic and contrary to what Eberron has so far put forth (not that you can't go against that if you like). This is a rather odd comment given the point you're trying to make. If you're doing something with magic, why bother with gears at all? Gears are an essential component of various Golems. Aren't you familiar with D&D magic? ;) If a person can make more profit by using magical means to power relatively simple technology than by using magic alone, they will mostly likely combine the two. That's a pretty big "if" right there. Can a person gain more by combining magic and very simple science based technology? In some cases, yes. Eberron does have examples of magic powering technological devices. The magical cranes of Sharn's docks could have partially scientific bases, but by and large, they're magical contrivances. Moreover, connecting devices together with a magical power source usually makes the same part of the same magical device - that is, it's a bit blurry to say which part is magic and which is not. A Sword, for example, is a complicated and advanced bit of applied metallurgy. Which part of a magic Sword's efficacy is technology and which part is magic? Can we use the magic part to do something else? The question here points directly at the heart of what the nature of magic is, and unless you're willing to make a complex extrapolated system, I'm guessing that we're all just groping about in the dark here. Best to just let a decanter be a decanter, IMO. Psifon: No. I'm saying that your objections are pointless. You're asking, "Why doesn't Eberron do it this way?" I'm saying that "Because they're already doing it a better way." Q: "Shouldn't Eberron be using magic to power industry?" A: "Isn't it doing that already?" Q: "Shouldn't Eberron be on the brink of an Industrial Revolution?" A: "Why should it mirror European history, exactly? Hasn't it sort of sidestepped that issue altogether? Isn't Eberron, in many ways, already Post-Industrial, as Europeans would call it?" aelryinth: With all due respect, I don't even bother replying to your posts much anymore. I did not refer to you at all in my previous post. Please don't make the mistake of assuming that I'm referring to your point unless I actually name you, as in this one case. I didn't miss your point. I simply don't care enough to comment on it. DarthMidget: The best example is gunpowder. It existed for centuries in ancient China, but Europe developed firearms, cannon, and military explosives well before the Chinese did. Completely untrue. The oldest handheld firearms, shrapnel explosive weapons, explosive siege weaponry, and cannon are unequivocally Chinese in origin, as substantiated by archeological fact. You can research more on the matter if you wish. At most times during the Ming dynasty, Chinese firearms weren't significantly inferior to their European counterparts, and were superior in various ways. Whenever Chinese cannon technology fell behind, the Chinese simply bought cannons and firearms from the Portugese and reverse-engineered them. Many cannons and firearms of Chinese manufacture were every bit the equal of the best cannons made by Europeans. I do not at all feel that Eberron will be revolutionized by magic simply because magic is not a new discovery or invention. Elemental artifice is new and exciting, but it won't do anything similar to what the Industrial Revolution did to Europe. That happened way back when the Dragonmarked Houses were establishing their power. That was Eberron's Industrial Revolution. It happened during the golden years of the Kingdom of Galifar. If Elemental Magic is going to make its mark, it's going to be in another vein, perhaps like the Information Age. Tonpa: To think that Chinese did have gunpowder a really long time is wrong. The misunderstanding grows from the exploding bamboo sticks they used as a form of firecrackers. They had gunpowder earlier than Europeans; with just not so long time difference that is commonly thought. Also they did produce flamethrowers and light cannons very soon, the strength of the barrels and the size and force of the individual pieces just never could match the later European models. Well, they did sort of have it for quite a while before it filtered to Europe. Moreover, the Chinese not only developed cannons but invented rocketry and the first rocket weaponry. With rocket propelled shrapnel weaponry, who needed cannons? Cannon and weapon tech in general, particularly wartime strategy and tactics, languished in China during the Gunpowder Age simply because China didn't have powerful neighbors to wage war with, and because waging war is poorly thought of in Confucian philosophy. In contrast, Europe was a chaotic bunch of warring tribes who wanted nothing better than the next best weapon or tactic to take over and kill each other. It seems self-evident that the development of devastating weaponry would be more probable in one theatre over another (and which one, I might add). Even today, Europe and European descended countries are very warlike nations, and each values its armory scarcely less than did the plate-armored barbarians of ages long past. For the Suffrage part I meant that people have right of schooling, can represent them selves in court and are pretty much equal in the eyes of the law, which is essence the same thing, that democratic ideal is. Um, no. Most Khorvairian have right to education, but that's about it. Representation in court is extremely skewed in the direction of the rich and the powerful. So skewed, in fact, that it hardly matters in practice. See City of Sharn. Technically speaking, a commoner is the same as a nobleman in Breland, but in practice, a nobleman can expect to kill a hated commoner with little to no aftereffects. All noble families in Breland have representation in Parliament. In contrast, there is only a very small nod to anything resembling a House of Commons, and even that's largely subverted by the fact that anyone who gets elected is likely moderately wealthy and powerful themselves. By and large, the Parliament in Breland is a force of the Nobles, for the Nobles, and it's likely to stay that way for years to come.
Tonpa 04-04-06, 11:43 AM	Great points overall Roxlimn! Too much for me comment completely now, will come there sometime soon if possible, but for the comments on my posts. I again point out that leaving the historical data away; all I'm writing is only opinions and ideas and reflections of my personal vision. Tonpa: Well, they did sort of have it for quite a while before it filtered to Europe. Moreover, the Chinese not only developed cannons but invented rocketry and the first rocket weaponry. With rocket propelled shrapnel weaponry, who needed cannons? The point was to answer this point: The best example is gunpowder. It existed for centuries in ancient China, but Europe developed firearms, cannon, and military explosives well before the Chinese did. Which was flawed. Chinese texts make note of military potent “Fire Drug”, which is gunpowder, in 1044. Where it was firstly named in “Collection of the Most Important Military Technique”. It was almost immediately acknowledged to have military potential, the invention then being just made while studying longlivety potions. Fire producing substances were known 969 and united to this new “fire drug” 1083, by sources. Maybe earlier if some information has been lost, of course. This shows that the Chinese did use it as a weapon almost instantly. Also the rocketry example is also bit biased, the “rockets” used were quite simple and small, without good guidance or similar. They were not rocketry, as we know them. The point was making noise to intimidate enemy, or to use the rocket itself as a melee weapon. The rocket was inserted to the tip of spear and ignited; sometimes some bullets were inserted with the gunpowder, which made a miniature flamethrower. Again the point was to intimidate and disorient. In bombs Chinese were quite adept. First extant hand cannon is dated 1288, variation of the “fire lance”. Bronze cannon from 1350’s are still small but enormously more destructive pieces. In contrast, earliest reference of gunpowder in Europe is 1267 and military use 1331. The formula is thought to be of Chinese origin. So the point here is: The time to start using gunpowder as a military tool was quite fast process and the Chinese were as adept as Europeans to see it’s potential. Cannon and weapon tech in general, particularly wartime strategy and tactics, languished in China during the Gunpowder Age simply because China didn't have powerful neighbors to wage war with, and because waging war is poorly thought of in Confucian philosophy. This, I must say, is not true. The Sung dynasty, which was in power, was constantly attacked by the Interior Asian tribes, which would ultimately end the Sung rule when Kublai Khan attacked China 1274. Sung rulers were testing and developing gunpowder weaponry very fest when 1126 Jurchen tribe, from north of Korea, attacked Sung lands and laid siege of Kaifeng. Gunpowder arrows were then used, whit incendiary bombs, poison smoke bombs and explosive bombs. Yes, the saltpeter amount and the size of powder grains was not yet optimum then and most of the weapons were more annoying than deadly, but the effort was made, and the weapons were present. And the manufacture of those weapons was very professional and deliberate, and not only adapted toys. For the Confucian philosophy point of view, I’m not really certain, but the history of event which are naturally simplified here, seem to point otherwise. Um, no. Most Khorvairian have right to education, but that's about it. Representation in court is extremely skewed in the direction of the rich and the powerful. So skewed, in fact, that it hardly matters in practice. See City of Sharn. Technically speaking, a commoner is the same as a nobleman in Breland, but in practice, a nobleman can expect to kill a hated commoner with little to no aftereffects. All noble families in Breland have representation in Parliament. In contrast, there is only a very small nod to anything resembling a House of Commons, and even that's largely subverted by the fact that anyone who gets elected is likely moderately wealthy and powerful themselves. By and large, the Parliament in Breland is a force of the Nobles, for the Nobles, and it's likely to stay that way for years to come. Hmm. This sound very valid yes, but I must address that the fact that there is this total literature seems to point other way. The point there is to make some assumptions on why everybody can read. The Education is not stated literally in RAW, but it’s implied. Therefore I myself make the assumptions, which are by no means anything but assumption, that there are some of the institutions present that enable this state of literacy. Which, in my view, seem to point to more “democratic” way of government, if in reality if not in the governing body present. Basically dictatorship can be benevolent and democratic in action, while still keep only theoretical power on the figurehead. On the disparity of power in court you imply between rich and poor, I think is your personal opinion? I’m not aware of source in Eberron that supports this, while I’m recollecting that there was something in Eberron players guide, which I don’t have available just the moment.
Tonpa 04-04-06, 12:08 PM	Bob doesn't care about making a profit because the development of his social structure hasn't progressed to the point where he cares about profits. He sort of cares about profits, but he doesn't actually have competitors, so efficiency is less rewarded, and of course, there are more interesting things to be worried about, such as politics and social mores and such. Bob the Landowner isn't just a manager of a task force, you see. That's a modern concept. He's also a sociopolitical leader, and he has to wear many hats and perform different functions. Frankly, he doesn't have all that much time to worry about profit margins. As long as it's enough in the black, he doesn't care how much. Just a wonderful points there, a bit similar of the point that I tried to make unsuccessfully. Modern thought brought to situation that doesn’t by itself support the assumption that it (modern urge to self promotion by economic gain itself) would form. Thank you.
Roxlimn 04-04-06, 12:17 PM	Tonpa: The use of gunpowder per se is controversial. Flame lances from tapestries dating to the 8th century suggest that a flaming weapon was used as early as then, even if the Chinese shrapnel bomb was not yet developed. Also the rocketry example is also bit biased, the “rockets” used were quite simple and small, without good guidance or similar. They were not rocketry, as we know them. The rockets used as weaponry were guided with primitive fins, I believe, and weighted appropriately. They still weren't very precise, but they were absolutely solid fuel rockets. The point was making noise to intimidate enemy, or to use the rocket itself as a melee weapon. The rocket was inserted to the tip of spear and ignited; sometimes some bullets were inserted with the gunpowder, which made a miniature flamethrower. Again the point was to intimidate and disorient. Not entirely. Archeological evidence suggests that certain Chinese bombs were purposefully built to disintegrate and had solid metal pieces embedded within the gunpowder component, specifically to function as shrapnel weaponry. Some of this was rocket delivered, but others were catapult and trebuchet delivered. The infamous Hw'a Cha of the Koryo Kingdom, developed from Chinese rocket technology, used multiple rocket carts to deliver thousands of projectiles at something like machine-gun rates. You can still experience some of this in festivals, though the rockets are now built to NOT kill people. While gunpowder weaponry was also used to intimidate, disorient, and generally confuse, there's no question that it was also meant to demoralize the enemy by killing their men hundreds at a stroke. This, I must say, is not true. The Sung dynasty, which was in power, was constantly attacked by the Interior Asian tribes, which would ultimately end the Sung rule when Kublai Khan attacked China 1274. Sung rulers were testing and developing gunpowder weaponry very fest when 1126 Jurchen tribe, from north of Korea, attacked Sung lands and laid siege of Kaifeng. Gunpowder arrows were then used, whit incendiary bombs, poison smoke bombs and explosive bombs. Yes, the saltpeter amount and the size of powder grains was not yet optimum then and most of the weapons were more annoying than deadly, but the effort was made, and the weapons were present. And the manufacture of those weapons was very professional and deliberate, and not only adapted toys. For the Confucian philosophy point of view, I’m not really certain, but the history of event which are naturally simplified here, seem to point otherwise. True, but this isn't the point at which Chinese tactical puissance fell behind European military prowess. Indeed, it's speculated that the only reason the Mongol kingdoms and their adopted gunpowder siege weapons didn't deign to take over Europe is because there simply wasn't enough in it to justify the effort. During the Ming (not the Sung) dynasty, Chinese power was at its zenith and no power in the world dared to challenge it at its height. Ultraconservative Confucian thinkers in the middle of the Ming gained more power and influence, and they thought it best to close China's borders and adopt an isolationist policy, as well as playing down war and exploratory efforts. The Education is not stated literally in RAW, but it’s implied. Right to education is stated in the ECS as part of Galifar Code that is still in practice in modern Khorvaire. On the disparity of power in court you imply between rich and poor, I think is your personal opinion? No. References in the City of Sharn, Explorer's Handbook, and ECS serve as the basis for this statement. The composition of Brelish parliament, in particular, is briefly hinted at in the ECS. All nobles have seats.
Tonpa 04-04-06, 02:16 PM	Again very good points, sorry my haste reply, I’m a bit middle of work. The use of gunpowder per se is controversial. Flame lances from tapestries dating to the 8th century suggest that a flaming weapon was used as early as then, even if the Chinese shrapnel bomb was not yet developed. Good point, lets us to presume the idea was quite early on developed to weapon nevertheless. And again keeps us to keep the quite fast pace of military development from invention, which I presume we both acknowledge? This was the point rewoken at first, I think. The rockets used as weaponry were guided with primitive fins, I believe, and weighted appropriately. They still weren't very precise, but they were absolutely solid fuel rockets. Here my point was the also the payload, which was the physical impact an by lesser extend the ignition of flammable material. While both are form of indirect fire, I tried to make the distinction to rocketry image . The concussion and shrapnel bombs were more rolling type.. :) While gunpowder weaponry was also used to intimidate, disorient, and generally confuse, there's no question that it was also meant to demoralize the enemy by killing their men hundreds at a stroke. I made my point poorly. There I was speaking of the “Fire Lance”, which was relatively inefficient in killing opposition, even if combined with ammunition, compared to even the most basic guns. The bombs, with shrapnel, poison or pure concussion force were weapons of different order. But even there I must again point the difference of more modern explosives. The Chinese made an impression with their bombs. Like “ Heaven Shaking Thunder Crash Bomb” 1231, which “scorched an area forty yards square” and “shrapnel ripped through iron armor”, were unique and treated that way. Size was huge and they were usually rolled to enemy, or pushed on them or similar. This point is again made for the image in relation to modern and fantasy explosives or similar effects. During the Ming (not the Sung) dynasty, Chinese power was at its zenith and no power in the world dared to challenge it at its height. This is quite true. My point was to express the starting argument of instrumental development and its application. I must insist that the Chinese were quite adept with this destructive force, its utility and its development to weaponry. The failure to keep the lead in this military equipment is, or better I feel is, more political than to do in human, Chinese mentality or Confucian philosophy itself. I am certain that you are right, as far as we can now and presume, that the Chinese hegemony in 1368 onward has hindering effect to its military might. Right to education is stated in the ECS as part of Galifar Code that is still in practice in modern Khorvaire. Ok. Which makes me assume that there is some political force supporting this, leading to assumption of common interests groups. This implies quite renaissance feel of political thought, if not full Rousseau way of trusting Man. By bringing this thought in power to very republican theme for the setting. This is quite long line of assumptions, but viable I think? No. References in the City of Sharn, Explorer's Handbook, and ECS serve as the basis for this statement. The composition of Brelish parliament, in particular, is briefly hinted at in the ECS. All nobles have seats. I get my hand on Players book, and will look on those other also; if you could list me couple of pages you feel are most revealing. In PGE (136) its implied that the Monarchy, Dragonmark Houses and Nobility rule, in that order of political power. But also that; “In civilized society, laws protect members of all races and social classes equally.” This is off course the intention of the law, and not necessarily the reality, but the philosophy of the lawmaking seems to be equality. Also it’s stated that non-Dragonmarked middleclass members can rise to governmental position, which implies that the system is Meritocratic in theory, while still Aristocratic in reality.
Kreistor1 04-04-06, 02:30 PM	It depends on where you are, Tonpa. Five Nations demonstrates that each nation was ruled in a different manner. Breland has established the beginnings of representative democracy, but only to a small extent. Sharn in particular does elect its ruling council, but each district limits the voting, so that though a couple are closer to our 1 person-1 vote belief, many of their districts limit voting to only those of a certain race or financial standing. As for legal matters, though Galifar insists all are to be treated equally, the limitations of protective services mean there's not enough cops to do the job. So they do the job in the places where they pay more. Someone suggests a noble could expect to get away with murder. That's not entirely true. If the noble knows who to bribe, that might happen, but if he doesn't, he could wind up on bribery charges picking the wrong Watchman. And down in the Cogs, where law and order are virtually non-existent, the noble might turn up dead, but it's not like the Watch can figure out whodunnit. Someone would hang for it, but it would most likely be a railroad job and anyone potentially guilty would serve the cry for blood. So, yes, a noble might get away with murder in certain circumstances, but a commoner could get away with it too.
Tonpa 04-04-06, 02:51 PM	It depends on where you are, Tonpa. Five Nations demonstrates that each nation was ruled in a different manner. Breland has established the beginnings of representative democracy, but only to a small extent. Sharn in particular does elect its ruling council, but each district limits the voting, so that though a couple are closer to our 1 person-1 vote belief, many of their districts limit voting to only those of a certain race or financial standing. So Breland is somewhat like Republican Italian state? This is quite Interesting, in fact. So we could deliver from here the common education power groups. I’m still keeping the fundamental revolution of educational reform for Galifar institution. The survival of common peoples rights could by these facts be delivered from Brelish republican cities. I feel good about this. As for legal matters, though Galifar insists all are to be treated equally, the limitations of protective services mean there's not enough cops to do the job… True, but we are, or I feel that we are, discussing the philosophical background of some government ruled institutions, which seem to show the understanding to common people. Someone suggests a noble could expect to get away with murder. That's not entirely true. If the noble knows who to bribe, that might happen, but if he doesn't, he could wind up on bribery charges picking the wrong Watchman. Which would be more about the Corruption factor, which can be integrated to any democratic or non-democratic government, and by some extend be even beneficial (Eastern gift giving tradition).
Ricohard_Draconis 04-04-06, 03:01 PM	So Breland is somewhat like Republican Italian state? This is quite Interesting, in fact. So we could deliver from here the common education power groups. I’m still keeping the fundamental revolution of educational reform for Galifar institution. The survival of common peoples rights could by these facts be delivered from Brelish republican cities. I feel good about this. I would have said more England during the mid to late 1800's you have an elected council (mostly landowners, minor gentry and the dragonmarked houses and merchants) as well as a noble upper chamber ruled over by a monach. Voting rights are slowly expanding (things change when wars end "we fought for this place, why can't we have a say in how its run") but you pretty much still need to be either educated or a property owner as well as some restrictions on race and sex.
Kreistor1 04-04-06, 03:29 PM	I agree with Ricohard. The Brelish monarchy appears to have more power than 1800's British monarchy had, but not a whole heapload more. the nobility structure is breaking down, and being replaced with a more achievement based system. The ir'Tain gala that decides the top 60 families in Sharn is a clear example of the upper power structure being very untied from birth rights.
Tonpa 04-04-06, 04:15 PM	I would have said more England during the mid to late 1800's you have an elected council (mostly landowners, minor gentry and the dragonmarked houses and merchants) as well as a noble upper chamber ruled over by a monach. I took the example from earlier history mostly because the close feel of roman republic in Galifar and also for shorter philosophical root for equalitarian ideas. Italian system need only local revolution for philosophicaö root, but if we get ideas from England’s parliamentary, we get quite complex ideology heredity. But this is really an question of preference. Voting rights are slowly expanding (things change when wars end "we fought for this place, why can't we have a say in how its run") but you pretty much still need to be either educated or a property owner as well as some restrictions on race and sex. These restrictions do not exist by Dnd definition, and the education factor is also a bit hard to manage, because all have almost equaled footing there. Naturally Aristocrats have some Education advantage, and Middle class has monetary edge, but still the common people have the potential to manifest their class feeling by mediums that our histories persons did not have. There also does not seem to be any social movement out of courtly intrigue moving in Eberron, which is quite sad. This is one of those things that this thread should give some good ideas. There has not been written out any class fight in Eberron, neither there Is inequality between sexes or imminent racism. Most art still seems to prefer male human rulers, but I have not seen the written proof of this being a trend.
il Kav 04-04-06, 06:31 PM	I took the example from earlier history mostly because the close feel of roman republic in Galifar and also for shorter philosophical root for equalitarian ideas. Italian system need only local revolution for philosophicaö root, but if we get ideas from England’s parliamentary, we get quite complex ideology heredity. But this is really an question of preference. I can't fully understand (or I cannot understand at all) the analogy between Breland and Italy. I see Breland much more similar to 1800 U.K. In Italy one person is one vote. I assure it to you: we have a true modern european democracy (maybe a little strange... we have the tendence to have a political party for every single citizen...).
Ricohard_Draconis 04-04-06, 07:20 PM	These restrictions do not exist by Dnd definition, and the education factor is also a bit hard to manage, because all have almost equaled footing there. True they're not defined specifically, personally i would work it like this. (note this is very rough and off the top of my head) magewrights, experts and adepts as well as Wizards and artificers would be those who gained there votes through either education or Barbarians, Druids and commoners would not have the vote. Rogues and rangers would depend on whether they were 'legitimate' Cleric, Monks and Paladins as well as other priests and monks would probably have the vote. All dragonmarked people would have the vote, even if they didn't deserve it otherwise. Humans, dwarves, elves, changelings, shifters, gnomes, halflings, half elves, Klashtar, Half orcs and Warforged would probably be elligible to vote as long as they either owned a house worth at least 500 gold pieces or had rented the same apartment for at least 12 months with a cost of at least 5 gp per month. Orcs, goblins and other goblinoids would be elligible to vote only if they have a legitimate job, for which they have documentation, connection to a dragonmarked house or such like. As well as the same ownership requirements as the normal races. Other Monsterous Humanoid races would probably not have the vote unless they had a stable job, the ownership requirements and at least two references from people in good standing, namely that they have the vote. Beyond Monsterous Humanoids its unlikely that they have any access to vote. As for gender, given the D&D hesitation to make any restrictions based on it, i would probably leave it off, along with descrimination based on skin colour or religion, since when you've got green to pick on, black and white isn't so different. As for those who sit i would set up the Brelish house of Politics as follows Lower chamber- any non-lord, non-religious leader, who can vote has the right to stand if they can provide a 200gp fee up front to be placed on the ballot. MP's are paid 5 gp per month and are provided with an office and clerk by the government. There are a large number of marked and non-marked dragonmark house members, who are supported by their respective houses. Upper chamber- The upper chamber is unelected and is made up as follows. 5 representatives from each of The Soverign Host and The Silver Flame the rest of the chamber is made up of the aristocracy. All Lords, dukes, counts and hereditary knights are guarranted a seat in per petuam for their family, these are almost exclusively human. The rest are made up of none hereditary peers who sit for their life time, these are people rewarded for great deeds so they have a wider range of races (still mostly common races though).
Tonpa 04-05-06, 03:11 AM	I can't fully understand (or I cannot understand at all) the analogy between Breland and Italy. I see Breland much more similar to 1800 U.K. The Venetian system, where the City state was, in theory, ruled by almost absolute rules, but which still had republican system for the Citizens. Which was made by quite simple political changes from Byzantine system. I’m not really specifying the exact time, so I can use, quite freely, the Machiavellian rulers in contesting city-states. I admit that the Khorvairean nations are quite bit larger in size than the City-States in Northern Italy (say 1500), but still I feel the analogue works. And it’s more for the feel. In Italy one person is one vote. I assure it to you: we have a true modern european democracy (maybe a little strange... we have the tendence to have a political party for every single citizen...). :) Gods! That really dropt me.
Tonpa 04-05-06, 03:47 AM	True they're not defined specifically, personally i would work it like this. (note this is very rough and off the top of my head)… I myself see the “vote” being of communal gatherings of different kinds, being that the community’s voice of free citizens is somewhat acknowledged. So the Difference of voting “right” is not delivered from the schooling or class (or character class) than to group you belong. Druidic community, if acknowledged citizens of the real, could be heard in representation of their communal gathering in decision-making. Humans, dwarves, elves, changelings, shifters, gnomes, halflings, half elves, Klashtar, Half orcs and Warforged would probably be elligible to vote as long as they either owned a house worth at least 500 gold pieces or had rented the same apartment for at least 12 months with a cost of at least 5 gp per month. Orcs, goblins and other goblinoids would be elligible to vote only if they have a legitimate job, for which they have documentation, connection to a dragonmarked house or such like. As well as the same ownership requirements as the normal races. This sounds good, while making the difference between races is not good policy itself, the property equals citizenship clause sounds cool. This clause will make it so that only heads of family can vote, you understand? I like the community votes thing myself, so here is good way of enforcing it. Very nice work here. As for gender, given the D&D hesitation to make any restrictions based on it, i would probably leave it off, along with descrimination based on skin colour or religion, since when you've got green to pick on, black and white isn't so different. True. This is still matter of opinion; I myself do not see sexism needed in dnd, but like the flavor implications. For racism, the skin color is just dump when you have so many other humanoid races to choose from to hate. I like to include complications for character and some forms of sexism, racism and prejudice are helping, but this is personal opinion only. EDIT: And for religious intolerence; you have the dark six, blood of Vol and atheists to be prejudiced on. :) Btw, its funny how the stuff sounds in other languages. "pimeä kuusikko" (dark six) does not ring so intimidating, more like a adventuring group of teens smartasses. :rolleyes: As for those who sit i would set up the Brelish house of Politics as follows I must say that, in my view, you have good grasp of balance in you visions, and very nice way to apply it. Thank you. Lower chamber- any non-lord, non-religious leader, who can vote has the right to stand if they can provide a 200gp fee up front to be placed on the ballot. MP's are paid 5 gp per month and are provided with an office and clerk by the government. There are a large number of marked and non-marked dragonmark house members, who are supported by their respective houses. For lower house, I would like to include quite many members of the cloak there, preferably from Sovereign host. By community gathering theory I myself preferred, it sounds logical that some member of community’s religious education could be favored to house seat. This is because; There is no real history’s prevention measures present, there is good reasons to expect that this persons shows the best education and character in community’s meeting, this person has education in oratory, he could be a minor nobility, he has good support group nation wide which has great packing (the gods :) ) and the minor cleric (really expert in game terms) is most easily replaced member of community because of church backing. Upper chamber- The upper chamber is unelected and is made up as follows. 5 representatives from each of The Soverign Host and The Silver Flame the rest of the chamber is made up of the aristocracy. All Lords, dukes, counts and hereditary knights are guarranted a seat in per petuam for their family, these are almost exclusively human. The rest are made up of none hereditary peers who sit for their life time, these are people rewarded for great deeds so they have a wider range of races (still mostly common races though). Nice, really nice. The ”mostly human” clause means that humans own majority of the manors, i presume. I would but the church heads from every great city in realm, like bishop’s seats, plus couple greater convents. This still keeps the Aristocracy’s lead far away from the members of the cloak, and more so when remembering than most of the bishops should be Aristocrats or Nobles themselves. All-in all, I like this very much.
Euangelion 04-05-06, 11:13 AM	All dragonmarked people would have the vote, even if they didn't deserve it otherwise. I thought that the blood members of DM houses were not citizens of the nations they live in (thus they would not have the right to vote). Ironically I could see someone with an aberrant mark more likely being able to vote but anyone with a standard mark would have a hard time gaining status as a citizen.
Kreistor1 04-05-06, 11:25 AM	I've never seen anything that suggests that, Euangelion. In fact, the deal that Galifar signed with the Houses specifically makes them part of the Empire. The government is required to not poke its nose too heavily into House business, so they couldn't conscript House members for the War or force them to action, but the individual members are still citizens of the nations in which they live by all the indicators I've read. Remember, each nation believes it is the rightful heir of Galifar, so they would expect the House representatives inside tehir own nation to treat them as such.
Euangelion 04-05-06, 03:08 PM	Okay, I see your point. But what do you make of this statement found on page 126 of S:CoT: "Breland adheres to the Galifar Code of Justice. Currently, the protection of the law is extended to all citizens of the 12 nations recognized by the Treaty of Thronehold and all members of the dragonmarked houses." (Emphasis added.) It doesn't say "including," it says "and." I'll keep looking for a more definative statement, but I assure you that I'm not just pulling stuff out of...well, let's just say that I'm not just making it up! ;) Edit: also on page 130 of S:CoT it states that "the dragonmarked houses are extranational entities..." Edit:Edit: Here's another interesting statement on page 9 of the ECS under Ten Things You Need To Know, #8 Dragonmark dynasties: "While not technically citizens of any nation, the matriarchs and patriarchs of each house live in splendor within their enclaves and emporiums located throughout Khorvaire." I would say that considering the material in the sourcebooks (official) and several key plot points relating to Daine and Lei in City of Towers and The Shattered Land (unofficial), that the evidence seems to indicate that members of the dragonmarked houses are not citizens of any particular nation.
Kreistor1 04-05-06, 04:57 PM	There are Houses outside of the 12. The Dragonmarked Houses have representatives in Pylas Talaer, for instance. If they visit the twelve nations, despite being neither Aereni (at least, I doubt the Aereni would extend citizenship to a Half-orc Tharashk) nor Galifar, would the Houses accept the Treaty without them being protected? You can read that statement as "The treaty covers all citizens, and any members of the 13 Houses that are stationed outside of the twelve nations."
Kreistor1 04-05-06, 05:08 PM	Euangelion, you have to remember, these books are written by multiple authors who as often as not are on tight deadlines with inadequate time to review their writing against previous material. Quoting chapter and verse will not work. There will be inconsistencies. Keith doesn't get to edit everything to ensure consistency with his vision, and lots of material goes out the door with inadequate editing. There are no gods involved in writing these books. They're written by humans who make mistakes. So, pick whichever sentence you want to go with, but don't try to find consistency in these books or expect me to agree that you've found the only word on the subject. The more they write, the less consistency there will be, and the more likely something else will be true elsewhere.
Euangelion 04-05-06, 09:36 PM	Euangelion, you have to remember, these books are written by multiple authors who as often as not are on tight deadlines with inadequate time to review their writing against previous material. Quoting chapter and verse will not work. There will be inconsistencies. Keith doesn't get to edit everything to ensure consistency with his vision, and lots of material goes out the door with inadequate editing. There are no gods involved in writing these books. They're written by humans who make mistakes. So, pick whichever sentence you want to go with, but don't try to find consistency in these books or expect me to agree that you've found the only word on the subject. The more they write, the less consistency there will be, and the more likely something else will be true elsewhere. What the...? I simply made a comment regarding the citizenship of members of dragonmarked houses in an otherwise excellent post. You challenged that statement with "I've never seen anything that suggests that, Euangelion." I then responded with statements from Eberron sourcebooks that suggest to me that my point at least has some merit. So what's with this response of yours? I'm just trying to discuss a point, and I have done nothing to suggest that the authors of the sourcebooks should be expected not to make mistakes. If Ricohard_Draconis wants to make members of dragonmarked houses citizens of the nations they live in, he has every right to do so in his Eberron. I have no problem with that. I was simply pointing out that I seemed to recall that the sourcebooks, including the ECS, seemed to suggest otherwise, in case he was unaware of that information. Frankly, I don't care if you agree with it or not either, since my original comment wasn't even directed at you. However, I feel at this point that further discussion of this matter constitutes off-topic discussion, so I'm done.
Ricohard_Draconis 04-05-06, 09:55 PM	This sounds good, while making the difference between races is not good policy itself, the property equals citizenship clause sounds cool. This clause will make it so that only heads of family can vote, you understand? I like the community votes thing myself, so here is good way of enforcing it. Very nice work here. Only heads of the household is what its meant to do (which also largely excludes women from voting with out legal discrimination). Racial differences may not be good policy but this doesn't mean that its not holding with Racism, where in goblins are treated as second rate citizens. [/quote] True. This is still matter of opinion; I myself do not see sexism needed in dnd, but like the flavor implications. For racism, the skin color is just dump when you have so many other humanoid races to choose from to hate. I like to include complications for character and some forms of sexism, racism and prejudice are helping, but this is personal opinion only.[/quote] As I say this depends on your personal view. EDIT: And for religious intolerence; you have the dark six, blood of Vol and atheists to be prejudiced on. :) Btw, its funny how the stuff sounds in other languages. "pimeä kuusikko" (dark six) does not ring so intimidating, more like a adventuring group of teens smartasses. :rolleyes: yes, that would be perfectly fitting, personally i wouldn't exclude BoV but there might be a tax for them to pay if they wish to vote. I must say that, in my view, you have good grasp of balance in you visions, and very nice way to apply it. Thank you. Thank you, there mostly based on what i learnt from the history of british parlimentary history. For lower house, I would like to include quite many members of the cloak there, preferably from Sovereign host. By community gathering theory I myself preferred, it sounds logical that some member of community’s religious education could be favored. This depends, personally i'd say that Breland had advanced to a private vote system rather than an open one at least in most places. I wouldn't let ordained religious figures sit in the lower house, its a british legal thing dating back to the reestablishment. Nice, really nice. The ”mostly human” clause means that humans own majority of the manors, i presume. I would but the church heads from every great city in realm, like bishop’s seats, plus couple greater convents. This still keeps the Aristocracy’s lead far away from the members of the cloak, and more so when remembering than most of the bishops should be Aristocrats or Nobles themselves. i assume you mean cloth when you say cloak (no worries though i can see english isn't your first language and its a bit esoteric. Indeed that was the aim. As for Dm people being extra national. You can play it that way but i think it only weakens their power, since they're supposedly politic entities. Plus this way they fit in better :)
stembolt 04-05-06, 10:14 PM	Okay, I see your point. But what do you make of this statement found on page 126 of S:CoT: "Breland adheres to the Galifar Code of Justice. Currently, the protection of the law is extended to all citizens of the 12 nations recognized by the Treaty of Thronehold and all members of the dragonmarked houses." (Emphasis added.) It doesn't say "including," it says "and." I'll keep looking for a more definative statement, but I assure you that I'm not just pulling stuff out of...well, let's just say that I'm not just making it up! Comprehensive reading of the Eberron books leads me to the following ideas about citizenship in Eberron (Khorvaire). The following people have “rights” in Khorvaire: Citizens of the nations that signed the Treaty of Thronehold. Additionally members of the DM Houses also have “rights.” Now you can be a citizen of a country (Breland) and work for a DM house (Medanni). The reason this is important is that members of House Thrask from the shadow Marches can have rights. As can gargoyles or harpies that work for one of the houses as messengers. At the same time, Buba the hill giant has no rights and can be killed on sight (an overstatement, he can be killed with the same restrictions that one might kill a dog). This is interesting because it creates a number of great game opportunities. Firstly it establishes that you can kill raging monsters and need little proof. Second it creates opportunities where you cannot kill an NPC. A gargoyle messenger would need to be brought to justice, not simply killed. There are other interesting caveats. For example proving someone to be undead would void their rights. An interesting adventure might be based around the PCs getting framed for some crime and the PCs must prove to the authorities that their accuser is a vampire, thus negating the accusation. To me this is one of the places that Eberron shows its true genius.
stembolt 04-05-06, 10:16 PM	Oh as for property ownership it is noted in the players guide that members of the DM houses are forbidden to own property. As I recall it insinuates that only the nobility may own property.
aelryinth 04-06-06, 01:38 AM	Stembolt: Now, if you'd only had such a sensible attitude before inflicting upon us your definitions of the subject at hand as if they were the only possible ones. ==+Aelryinth
Ricohard_Draconis 04-06-06, 08:21 AM	Oh as for property ownership it is noted in the players guide that members of the DM houses are forbidden to own property. As I recall it insinuates that only the nobility may own property. This probably depends on how you define property.. Anyone can own a thing (general property) As for land i would say that given 100 years of war the line between nobility and the upper mercantile classes, since kings only have so many ways to ensure their loyalty. I could see that the Galifar code, like the british Magna Carta, would only cover those of the noble classes and that that might still be followed in areas such as Karrnath. But Breland is characterised as the forward looking country of opportunity and as such ruling out a mercantile moveable class seems to go against the flavor of the place. I like the idea of the Dragonmarked Houses haveing a form of diplomatic immunity as it where no matter where they are, unless the house revokes it for a specific member, but they still have citizenship in the country of their birth (or which ever they move to). Which i think reconciles the problem somewhat of them being both of and not of the countries.
stembolt 04-06-06, 08:22 PM	Now, if you'd only had such a sensible attitude before inflicting upon us your definitions of the subject at hand as if they were the only possible ones. When it is the only definition, I say so. That’s how I roll. This probably depends on how you define property.. Yes definitely the wrong word, Real Estate is the word I should have used. I like the idea of the Dragonmarked Houses haveing a form of diplomatic immunity as it where no matter where they are, unless the house revokes it for a specific member, but they still have citizenship in the country of their birth (or which ever they move to). Which i think reconciles the problem somewhat of them being both of and not of the countries. The immunity is not so much diplomatic as practical. There are limits (unlike diplomatic immunity). This part of the law is recorded in the “Edicts of Korth” (or something similar). That document details the powers and extents of the DM houses as well as restrictions. For example, members of the houses are forbidden to hold any public position.
Ricohard_Draconis 04-06-06, 11:41 PM	Yes definitely the wrong word, Real Estate is the word I should have used. Actually i think the best word would be estate (as in tracts of land) since ownership of a house is something that every Freeman (as opposed to a surf or Villein) should have the right to. The immunity is not so much diplomatic as practical. There are limits (unlike diplomatic immunity). This part of the law is recorded in the “Edicts of Korth” (or something similar). That document details the powers and extents of the DM houses as well as restrictions. For example, members of the houses are forbidden to hold any public position. I would personally not use that simply because the DM houses are supposed to be powerful political, as well as economic, entities and if your don't allow them to have their 'men' on the various councils it weakens them, making them seem less of a power. If you were to follow that rule i would probably say it only applies to the house's Heirs (namely those with dragonmarks) since otherwise its a bit nebulous as to how closely do you have to be related to be a member of the house...
stembolt 04-07-06, 12:16 AM	I would personally not use that simply because the DM houses are supposed to be powerful political, as well as economic, entities and if your don't allow them to have their 'men' on the various councils it weakens them, making them seem less of a power. That bit is a definite fact of the CAW (Campaign as Written). I think you may be misjudging the power of the houses though. They hold monopolies on all major trades. And they are generally a law unto themselves. They don’t need a guy on the council to keep tariffs down, the council does not likely have the power to change the tariff rate. Actually i think the best word would be estate (as in tracts of land) since ownership of a house is something that every Freeman (as opposed to a surf or Villein) should have the right to. Not necessarily. That is never specifically spelled out. It may be a right, or it may be interpretable. Breland may grant ownership of houses. Aundair might grant ownership but eminent domain practices might negate that. And so on.
Roxlimn 04-14-06, 04:03 AM	Tonpa: I get my hand on Players book, and will look on those other also; if you could list me couple of pages you feel are most revealing. In PGE (136) its implied that the Monarchy, Dragonmark Houses and Nobility rule, in that order of political power. But also that; “In civilized society, laws protect members of all races and social classes equally.” This is off course the intention of the law, and not necessarily the reality, but the philosophy of the lawmaking seems to be equality. Also it’s stated that non-Dragonmarked middleclass members can rise to governmental position, which implies that the system is Meritocratic in theory, while still Aristocratic in reality. Non-dragonmarked middle class citizens can rise to assume some governmental positions, but how this happens is hinted at in the ECS and Sharn books. If you look at the composition of the ruling powers of Sharn, you'll note that a fair number of the powers that be are merchants or otherwise already powerful "common citizens." In actual fact, these people have considerable power already, sometimes beyond that accorded to them by their station in the country. Occasionally they are brought to power to be used as pawns by the mighty. There are meritocratic instances of promotion in Khorvaire, but beyond the Dragonmarked Houses, this seems to be the exception rather than the rule. Ok. Which makes me assume that there is some political force supporting this, leading to assumption of common interests groups. This implies quite renaissance feel of political thought, if not full Rousseau way of trusting Man. By bringing this thought in power to very republican theme for the setting. This is quite long line of assumptions, but viable I think? Not entirely. This comes of a limited scope of knowledge. I'm assuming that you're only thinking of the European models. In certain parts of China, specifically those under the purview of Shaolin, young men and boys have always had the privilege of attending a school of sorts, by entering the monastery. There is a wide tradition of sending off a child to Shaolin for a few years, as hope for the family's future. Having said that, not all people choose to send their children to school, even when it was completely free. Children are a valuable resource, they can help cook, and plant, and such like. People had lots and lots of children traditionally because they're a valuable resource, almost from the time they're born. More children means more fieldhands and house help and millers. When you sent a child to school, it would be as a family representative to send to the city or as someone who might aspire to office. Not all families could afford or wanted the loss of manpower. Cesare Borgia and similar uspurpers in Renaissance Italy supported the arts and sciences as a means of legitimizing their rule. That is not a problem in Khorvaire. I would say that in this, Khorvaire resembled Sung or Ming China than it did anything in Europe - that is - the country is rich enough for the ruling powers to grant and abide by institutionalized education for all, but it's not seen with the same brilliant spotlight that it did in Italy. I'm thinking that the Aundairians, with their emphasis on education and magic, would be more enlightened in some ways, but that's about it. Politically speaking... ...well, that's more complicated. Bear in mind that education and the rule and magical age of education and magic are NOT new things. These developments have been around since the time of Galifar - well on over a hundred years ago. Education is NOT new, and NOT revolutionary. If any revolution were to take place, it would have taken place years ago. Kreistor1: Someone suggests a noble could expect to get away with murder. That's not entirely true. If the noble knows who to bribe, that might happen, but if he doesn't, he could wind up on bribery charges picking the wrong Watchman. And down in the Cogs, where law and order are virtually non-existent, the noble might turn up dead, but it's not like the Watch can figure out whodunnit. Someone would hang for it, but it would most likely be a railroad job and anyone potentially guilty would serve the cry for blood. So, yes, a noble might get away with murder in certain circumstances, but a commoner could get away with it too. That's pretty willfully ignorant. It does say in the Sharn sourcebook that appearing and being politically and financially connected merits you a good deal more influence than otherwise. Even in the Cogs, a nobleman's death would be cause for a formal and an informal investigation. On the other hand, a commoner who was killed out of eyesight and earshot of the local Watch would probably go unnoticed, even if his body was later discovered. It's not simply a matter of bribes. Nobles specifically get better treatment than commoners by the people who enforce the law, and this even translates into straight Diplomacy bonuses depending on who you are and how you dress. A somewhat unimportant noble might simply be assuaged with the blood of a random commoner (who dies completely innocent, mind you), but an important noble would definitely get the House Tharashk treatment. Ricohard_Draconis: A similar power struggle existed between the Samurai and the merchant class during the late Tokugawa period (?) in Japanese history. Except in Japan's case, the Samurai did not yield power and were almost completely swept away in the Meiji Restoration. I'm not sure whether voting powers are going to be expanding in the immediate or even the forseeable future, though. The Nobles, which comprise the majority of Brelish Parliament, for example, are not voted. For another, the Brelish King is much more powerful than what I can recall of 19th century British monarchy. Currently, Brelish Parliament might have some powers, but in practice, it's little more than an advisory body (as indeed it was during the reign of King Galifar). There are no upper and lower chambers of Brelish Parliament, unless you make it so, and the number of nonNobles is limited, meaning that they have no real power other than one of vocal representation. I would personally not use that simply because the DM houses are supposed to be powerful political, as well as economic, entities and if your don't allow them to have their 'men' on the various councils it weakens them, making them seem less of a power. You underestimate the power of money. It's downright easy to have representation in various councils. You just need allied citizens who listen to what you say but aren't a member of a Dragonmarked House. Bear in mind that the Dragonmarked House are controlling influences in almost all of the Guilds that dominate Khorvairian economic life. Whether or not you're a member, you're probably a member of a Guild, if you're any kind of professional. If your boss tells you to decide one way on a council, it's probably best to listen to what he's saying. That doesn't automatically make you a member of the House, though. It just means that the Family now counts you as an ally and will support you as far as you support them. This level of connivance is not limited to the lowly. House Lyrandar and Queen Aurala are quite chummy, right up to the monarch-matriarch level. I understand that Cannith used to enjoy the same level of influence in Cyre. If you were to follow that rule i would probably say it only applies to the house's Heirs (namely those with dragonmarks) since otherwise its a bit nebulous as to how closely do you have to be related to be a member of the house... Not nebulous at all. All House members are documented, as I see it, since you usually need to lead a lifetime of loyal service to be inducted as an honorary House member. Not all people who carry the House's blood, or even have Dragonmarks, are members of the Dragonmarked Houses. I believe one Royal Consort has the Vadalis dragonmark, but has been excluded from the Dragonmarked House (since it's forbidden for the Dragonmarked Houses to have blood relations with royalty). stembolt: Generally agree. I would like to emphasize that "property" in the sense you use it seems to mean only real estate, or just estate. It goes without saying that the weapons that Deneith uses, the Skyforges that Cannith uses, and the various contrivances of House Orien and House Lyrandar, among other things, are privately owned. Also, the limitation on owning real estate might be one of the main driving forces as to why the stronghold of The Twelve (a Dragonmarked House funded venture) is levitating - possibly to get around the land ownership clauses.
Tonpa 04-14-06, 12:34 PM	Not entirely. This comes of a limited scope of knowledge. I'm assuming that you're only thinking of the European models. In certain parts of China, specifically those under the purview of Shaolin, young men and boys have always had the privilege of attending a school of sorts, by entering the monastery. There is a wide tradition of sending off a child to Shaolin for a few years, as hope for the family's future. Having said that, not all people choose to send their children to school, even when it was completely free. Children are a valuable resource, they can help cook, and plant, and such like. But I must insist the interest group is there to be found, even if I’m not quite certain is it philosophical or economic here. The Interest groups pressure must be sustained to some community or service to be in force, even if that service has been made institution of the social group itself. My point was to remark the philosophy that there should be philosophical pressure to be interest groups for this aim, aim being full literacy. The western view I was aiming at was the common person’s option to affect the decision-making. People are resource for extended family, that’s true in Eberron too, or so I think. For China example I would like to presume the interest groups are clear counter power for work in family, which I feel is not so different from European thinking as apprenticeship system. Also religious institutions for education is quite old in west also, so this example does not rule out, in my vision that is, the opinion that the common education leading to full literacy should lead to expect strong representative governmental system. People had lots and lots of children traditionally because they're a valuable resource, almost from the time they're born. More children means more fieldhands and house help and millers. When you sent a child to school, it would be as a family representative to send to the city or as someone who might aspire to office. Not all families could afford or wanted the loss of manpower. But total literacy means, and the code express that education is touching almost every person. The Eberron world is fully literate, and private tutoring being hard to get, and presuming that family teaching is not perfect or equal form to formative teaching, I seem to make the assumption that children are in fact schooled en masse. I see the point that the schooling is expensive, if there is competition on the results, if the school and teacher itself carries some form of merit. In this I see that the point of teaching is not by definition economic, but philosophical. When the religious system and the generic social environment is not supporting universal enlightenment, I come to conclusion that the governing system itself must somehow enforce the common peoples education. So if we rule out that the education itself betters commoners lot in workstation, she does not rise to middle class when she learns to read for simplified example, it seems to in fact hinder her total output. And if we rule out the religious impact on commoner’s wellbeing when using written sources, in my vision I’m not seeing that any major religious movement or faction is especially focused to educational enlightenment, the total literacy seems to hamper the mystery cults and religion itself. If we accept these two opinions, then the reason for the schooling must be philosophical. There are no written facts for common philosophical movements in Eberron, but this still seems to indicate there must be some movement for literacy’s favor. The political factor, the common rule if you like, seems to one good opinion for this. If, by government’s philosophy, it needs citizen’s participation for legimacy, it’s good reason to fortify controlled type of literacy. Cesare Borgia and similar uspurpers in Renaissance Italy supported the arts and sciences as a means of legitimizing their rule. That is not a problem in Khorvaire. I would say that in this, Khorvaire resembled Sung or Ming China than it did anything in Europe - that is - the country is rich enough for the ruling powers to grant and abide by institutionalized education for all, but it's not seen with the same brilliant spotlight that it did in Italy. I'm thinking that the Aundairians, with their emphasis on education and magic, would be more enlightened in some ways, but that's about it. I’m not aware of Chinese institutionalized education matters, so I cannot really say anything about the fact. I still presume there is some kind of inters group enforcing this, and feel that the basic philosophy is not enough itself, without either economic, religious or governing motives.
stembolt 04-14-06, 01:50 PM	But total literacy means, and the code express that education is touching almost every person. The Eberron world is fully literate, and private tutoring being hard to get, and presuming that family teaching is not perfect or equal form to formative teaching, I seem to make the assumption that children are in fact schooled en masse. I would like to point out the metagame reason for literacy in Eberron. In DnD all the characters are literate (except barbarian).
Tonpa 04-14-06, 02:08 PM	I would like to point out the metagame reason for literacy in Eberron. In DnD all the characters are literate (except barbarian). And by this I presume that you mean we can’t make assumptions based on this? I’m aware there is few good reasons to have basically medieval fantasy realm full literate, and these few ones I was focusing my attention. The reason was to include some though on the social system point of view, which interests me. I understand this is somewhat away from the firs topic, but I think the line of thought can be followed. My preference was away from the magical gizmo’s and more for the social system tinkering way. I’m sorry that I fell on using game information on this, but this is what I found to be used by most debates here. I understand also that if you presume that there is no inner reason, outside metagame reasons, to have full literacy in Eberron there is really no point on my reasoning. EDIT: Sorry if I sound a bit sour, it's not really my intention. Please take my text in light tone.
Roxlimn 04-14-06, 07:20 PM	Tonpa: I'm not entirely certain what you meant by "interest groups," but my personal view is that community-wide education is maintained in Eberron because of two things: 1. It's a recall to the glory days of Galifar. The Nation that rescinds on this prerogative in some sense loses some small part of their prerogative to rule, though they still have other form of legitimacy to fall back on. 2. Khorvaire is, in general, wealthy enough on the whole to support general educative facilities as well as students of the arts and magic. Does full literacy mean that the common person has a say in decision making? Don't be so sure about that. It took a long while before anything like representative democracy made itself known in the West and even then full literacy was quite a long way off. In contrast, education is very valued in Eastern societies. The Philippines at one point posted a 99.99% literacy rate, far and away beyond that acheivable in most Western modern intustrialized nations. Does that mean that Filipinos had more of a stake in determining their fates? Of course not. It's a lot more complicated that just that. In some cases, literacy only means that you have a greater power of the press - and the press can be controlled to broadcast whatever the editors like or are forced to broadcast. Ironically, this means that the minds of literate people are easier to influence en masse than the minds of illiterate people. Think of it as a network. Literate people are plugged in, illiterate people are not. If your network is mostly plugged in, it's easier to implement system-wide protocols, of whatever nature. This is both an advantage and a disadvantage, depending on how you choose to see it. An enforced, government wide sponsored educational program speaks more to me of population-wide opinion control than anything else, and it has been used successfully in the past, in the real world. If the government is sponsoring educational programs, then you have to wonder what's in those programs that the government is so willing to pay for them. Don't mistake the government for the people or the nation, by the way. They are not one in the same, especially in Eberron.
Tonpa 04-15-06, 05:01 AM	Interest groups mean to me groups of people or collection of similarly oriented groups that have same interest in some opinion. This meaning both active support for ideal, like the support of right to carry arms, and not so active, hidden agendas, like banning some form of advertisement to support smoke bans in some groups. The main point of support group don’t need to be known by the people participating, only that their actions support the idea. This meaning right to bear arms supports the ideal that person has right to protect their home against intrusion with force. For my view, if there is no collection of interest groups supporting some form of public action, the resources invested there will be used to other projects, in effect removing the first action. So for full literacy being in effect, you need an interest group to support the fact. Without it the literacy rate will fall, either from lack of support or lack of public opinions support for the ideal of literacy , as if the ability to communicate in written form is no longer needed. Ideologically this interest group need some form of active institution to lean on. Here the notion for economic, religious and political thought arises. My opinion therefore is that; without support institutions cannot survive. Without other institutions to support their ideology supporting systems cannot live. Therefore the institutions for literacy must be present. If you include the DnD fact that there is near total literacy, and that the literacy does not affect persons social status or his religious place in theological afterlife, the reason for full literacy must be social. For this social reason there must be some institution supporting it again. One of the possible institutions is the political one, and in my view it is. For supporting this view I point to the equality of sexes, near equality of social classes and races in front of law and the potential equality of skill in front of public projects. This leads to conclude very developed social thought, which does not exclude authoritarian rule, but includes common political thinking. I understand there are flaws in my Logical assumptions, because they are quite deterministic, but I think they are feasible in Eberron games. Again all this is my view and opinion, nothing more.
stembolt 04-15-06, 03:23 PM	I am glad I made my statement. It really cut the discussion “to the chase.” Yes Tonpa literacy can only exist in a society that values literacy. The cause in Eberron is probably very grassroots combined with an Arthurian type mythology. In the old glory days of Galfar literacy was valued, hence its valued in this day. Also literacy is required for magic. People who are magewrights do better and have better lives than non magewrights. Reading is required to get ahead.
Tonpa 04-15-06, 05:10 PM	I am glad I made my statement. It really cut the discussion “to the chase.” Yep. It seems so.. Question solved.
Roxlimn 04-16-06, 09:33 AM	Tonpa: Again, I sense in your determinism a limitation largely to the sphere of European historical knowledge. I sense a lack of knowledge of contemporary Chinese and Malayan history and ideology. It's not an uncommon limitation, and it's not like most Chinese and Malayan historians are familiar with American or European history. Be that as it may, it does make certain assumptions that may or may not necessarily be true in the context of Eberron, specifically, Khorvaire. The main fault of the determinism is the assumption that it's the interest group that maintains literacy. Of course, the majority of the population has to want to be literate in order to be literate, but that doesn't mean that an external agency isn't influencing popular opinion in order to produce these results. Especially in a world where mind magic and psionics are possible, if not relatively commonplace, I would think that such a political idea would be easy to produce, if not trivial. Specifically, you are also talking about Middle Class economics, where the larger majority of a nation's purchasing power comes from the middle class. In such a case, a strong middle class interest group becomes a powerful national force. Not so in a world like Eberron where the resources of the nation are the hands of a select few. If you hold the entire wealth of the nation literally in the palm of your hands, then no amount of contrary interest is going to influence how that wealth is spent. It's just you. Moreover, you can subsequently easily force public action through economic and even physical coercion, if it came down to it. Bringing economic incentive to the ends you desire can bend the will of the poor surprisingly easily. When all the people have are little grains of wheat, they'll all kill for a loaf of bread. That kind of influence can wipe entire cultures off the face of the earth. I think that you are having difficulty grasping this concept because education has never been much valued in the West, relatively speaking. In the end, civilizations like the US and Britain spend much more on arms and munitions than they spend on education, and the minds of their people and culture reflect this approach. You can speak soft, but you're got to be carrying a big stick. Even today, male mores and standards in Western culture carries a heavy connotation of physical, practically military force. Thus, in the West, the concept of total literacy has to include a plethora of supporting institutions and powerful interest powers (not necessarily groups) in order to be tenable. The founding support of total literacy need not be institutional. It can be cultural. If your culture prizes civlian acheivement over military power, then you can have a situation wherein literacy and scholarship carry a great deal of prestige and power. Not advisory prestige and power, mind you, but near total galactic, celestial, all-encompassing power. You might be thinking about the kind of power a scholar like St. Augustine or modern Western professors wield. No, not that kind of power. Imagine a culture wherein the figurehead medieval monarch is not Conan but a scholarly type. He doesn't outsmart opponents. No. His knowledge is so vast and otherworldy that he can literally blast his opponents into another world with his mystical and spiritual might. In a culture where you have this type of ideal, learning is not something that you leave to institutions. No. Institutions can fail. They can do wrong. They can be corrupted. When all the people fundamentally value literacy, then they will teach their children literacy whether or not there's an institution to support it. There's a saying from my home town. It says that education begins and ends in the home, and I fully believe in it. If I don't teach my children, then no one will. If I don't teach my children how I want them to think, then other people will tell them how to think. Education started at home, updated with the latest and valued as a prize beyond money - that's true education. A child who is taught that learning is a way that life is lived will keep his eyes and ears open until the day he dies. He doesn't need a school to teach him - his entire world is his school. As long as he can see letters, he won't need a school to teach him how to read - he'll learn on his own. I think that Eberron is fundamentally different from anything remotely resmebling European history. So different, in fact, that any imagining you can make that makes any sort of serious correlation between the two will probably end up having some kind of disconnect. This is one of them. In Khorvaire, sexes are equal. Kings and Queens are treated equally in every way. Where can you find such in European history? Even today, the number of national women leaders Europe has ever had won't fill a single page. So no, I don't think that your assumption is reasonable to begin with. For supporting this view I point to the equality of sexes, near equality of social classes and races in front of law and the potential equality of skill in front of public projects. Not true. Even in law, not all races are equal (only the PHB races are given representation, plus some few others). Moreso, the laws of many lands stipulate rights and prerogatives for nobles that are not given to commoners. I think you're overlooking or intentionally reading some passages in the books the way you want to.
Tonpa 04-16-06, 11:11 AM	Thus, in the West, the concept of total literacy has to include a plethora of supporting institutions and powerful interest powers (not necessarily groups) in order to be tenable. I must say it seem we have quite different views in terms we use. I get the impression that you mean with institutions produced governing procedures, as I’m speaking of social systems and mores. Institutions are more production of group behavior customs and behavior patterns important to the common working of the group. This is why I lifted the economical and religious (and some philosophical) institutions to the equation. I’m historian so my use of word institution is more social group oriented than organizational, which is only a part of social system. The main fault of the determinism is the assumption that it's the interest group that maintains literacy. Of course, the majority of the population has to want to be literate in order to be literate, but that doesn't mean that an external agency isn't influencing popular opinion in order to produce these results. Especially in a world where mind magic and psionics are possible, if not relatively commonplace, I would think that such a political idea would be easy to produce, if not trivial. Here may be some misunderstanding here also. My opinion on interest group is social group of persons who by their action support the growth of institution, which in this question is the literacy. The exact mean of influence is irrelevant, but I made the assumption on political institutions being place. The assumption is based western philosophy, which may be flawed in the context, but I still see viable as opinion. Specifically, you are also talking about Middle Class economics, where the larger majority of a nation's purchasing power comes from the middle class. In such a case, a strong middle class interest group becomes a powerful national force. Not so in a world like Eberron where the resources of the nation are the hands of a select few. If you hold the entire wealth of the nation literally in the palm of your hands, then no amount of contrary interest is going to influence how that wealth is spent. It's just you. My point somewhere earlier was exclude the economical factor from the equation by this same argument, the economic factor for institution seed seem minor compared to social groups themselves, which by definition differ from European groups by their amount of literacy and media intake. While the news were introduced in European theatre quite early on, even before the good written medium, the system for modern news production were not introduced before the reform period. Therefore it seems that the newspaper media influencing the masses in Eberron cannot really be compared to the known media readers in Europe’s history. This rules out by itself the idea that the economic development of handcrafts by skill monopoly leads to fuller literacy by economic compatibility. The Eberronian system has full literacy and exceptional large land based population. This leads again to the assumption that literacy has no economic effect on its “recipient”, which leads to exlusion of economic factor for institutional (ideological) background for interest groups (supported society’s norms). Moreover, you can subsequently easily force public action through economic and even physical coercion, if it came down to it. Bringing economic incentive to the ends you desire can bend the will of the poor surprisingly easily. When all the people have are little grains of wheat, they'll all kill for a loaf of bread. That kind of influence can wipe entire cultures off the face of the earth. I myself don’t trust the coercion factor. It can affect the development of institutions yes, but to form them independently, that I’m not really buying. Some coercion policies can come to in effect contrast to common moral reality, but I still trust their effect is quite limited. The survivability of area oriented groups and philosophical groups. There will be effect on them yes, but limited. In our point here I don’t see the total literacy could be but in effect by some individual policing, the governing force needs the social norm support for that, and for destabilizing the need for limit literacy, which is potent group of institutions (elitism, fear of rebellious thought, sexism, racism, propaganda, monopoly collecting for simplified example) by itself. I think that you are having difficulty grasping this concept because education has never been much valued in the West, relatively speaking. In the end, civilizations like the US and Britain spend much more on arms and munitions than they spend on education, and the minds of their people and culture reflect this approach. You can speak soft, but you're got to be carrying a big stick. Even today, male mores and standards in Western culture carries a heavy connotation of physical, practically military force. Quite heavy words you have there, I’m Finn you know, not really part of the western colonization force. EU we belong yes, but still. :). I must say that the western thought is by itself profit-oriented, in religion and philosophy and especially politics. The Educational norms are affected firstly by the economic value of the literacy, which is not true in Eberon. The literacy does not affect the value of your work. Yes, your skill does, but we are talking about the literacy. The big stick example really was… I can’t really understand this is real.. And I’m not really being sarcastic. Check Finland from wikipedia. :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland And think humanist from Jyväskylä, small city middle of this nation. Thus, in the West, the concept of total literacy has to include a plethora of supporting institutions and powerful interest powers (not necessarily groups) in order to be tenable. Yes I feel it does. The institutions need to be there to support that, and the interest groups to support that. I really think there is some different approach on institutions in our speak. You understand when I’m speaking of institutions I’m not really speaking of police force? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institution I’m not trying being sarcastic here, I’m feeling you use some other definition here. The founding support of total literacy need not be institutional. It can be cultural... Imagine a culture wherein the figurehead medieval monarch is not Conan but a scholarly type. … Again I think you misunderstand my meaning. Please read my post again with the institution definition included. There's a saying from my home town… This is an Institution. Not the enforcement of the saying, but the meaning of the saying. I think that Eberron is fundamentally different from anything remotely resmebling European history. So different, in fact, that any imagining you can make that makes any sort of serious correlation between the two will probably end up having some kind of disconnect. This is one of them. In Khorvaire, sexes are equal. Kings and Queens are treated equally in every way. Where can you find such in European history? Even today, the number of national women leaders Europe has ever had won't fill a single page. I’m a bit irritated here. I said the equality was there, I said it was the one main argument of my feel that the common peoples opinion is supported by total literacy. My opinion was that the total literacy could be (and only one possible reason and only in my opinion) because the institution of supporting people’s effect of society’s governing system. I understand you don’t really mean bad, but I come to feel that you make some statement on me. Again I understand the reason is by some misunderstood term before. So no, I don't think that your assumption is reasonable to begin with. I can live with that, good conversation anyway. Not true. Even in law, not all races are equal (only the PHB races are given representation, plus some few others). Moreso, the laws of many lands stipulate rights and prerogatives for nobles that are not given to commoners. I think you're overlooking or intentionally reading some passages in the books the way you want to. It really may be, could you point out some passage that points the racism out. This seems a bit of character of the book itself, but I can go with some form of prejudice. I would enforce some forms against combatants of different nations in Eberron for example, but I didn’t catch any straight lines for racial prejudice. This will be because I didn’t really looked for them so the overlooking and unintentional colored reading could have happened.
Kreistor1 04-17-06, 11:52 AM	Kreistor1: Someone suggests a noble could expect to get away with murder. That's not entirely true. If the noble knows who to bribe, that might happen, but if he doesn't, he could wind up on bribery charges picking the wrong Watchman. And down in the Cogs, where law and order are virtually non-existent, the noble might turn up dead, but it's not like the Watch can figure out whodunnit. Someone would hang for it, but it would most likely be a railroad job and anyone potentially guilty would serve the cry for blood. So, yes, a noble might get away with murder in certain circumstances, but a commoner could get away with it too. Roxlimn: That's pretty willfully ignorant. It does say in the Sharn sourcebook that appearing and being politically and financially connected merits you a good deal more influence than otherwise. Even in the Cogs, a nobleman's death would be cause for a formal and an informal investigation. On the other hand, a commoner who was killed out of eyesight and earshot of the local Watch would probably go unnoticed, even if his body was later discovered. It's not simply a matter of bribes. Nobles specifically get better treatment than commoners by the people who enforce the law, and this even translates into straight Diplomacy bonuses depending on who you are and how you dress. A somewhat unimportant noble might simply be assuaged with the blood of a random commoner (who dies completely innocent, mind you), but an important noble would definitely get the House Tharashk treatment. Do notice that I used "might" and "could". I by no means suggest that all such events will follow a single path. A couple things to notice about Sharn. First, S:CoT suggests that Zone of Truth gets used to identify criminals. Personally, I don't allow that at all. The existence of the Code of Galifar (and several of its contents) suggest that Galifar has the beginnings of a legal system, somewhat based on Roman Law (which is what we use, BTW). Law is based on Reason and therefore precedent law is a reasonable form to apply to Breland (not necessarily Karrnath, Thrane, etc.). For instance, one of the basic rights any criminal receives in the US and Canada is that of the right not to be forced to testify against himself. Just because Zone of Truth provides certain assurances that the criminal can't lie doesn't mean that the basic judgement against self incrimination goes away, just because it exists. So, in my Sharn, you can't be forced into talking inside a Zone of Truth. You do have the right to remain silent, and if you speak, you have the right not to have your words manipulated by magics, just as we have the right not to have a polygraph attached to us when we confess. I don't know what you imply by "willfully ignorant". You use it fairly broadly so I don't know if you're refering to me or the Watch I refer to. I'll assume you're not going all flamewar on me, and assume you think my Watch is willfully ignorant. That's not true. My Watch is willfully corrupt, as many cops were up until 1940 in the US, Canada, and Britain. Yes, the basics for investigative law began in the mid-late 1800's, and that is beginning in my Sharn, but it is still the basics, and the court is still struggling with allowed techniques. This is a time of major change in my Sharn, and that is reflected in a certain inconsistency at all levels. The Watch is filled with people on the take at many levels, not just the nobility. Certainly the Watch treats a noble suspect with silk gloves instead of the backside of a spiked gauntlet as would be used in the Cogs. But there are good cops that won't use the rough stuff, and good cops that won't give the noble a pass just for being a noble. The Code of Galifar does not seem to give nobility a pass on crime vs. commoners. What's there to enforce that? The Sharn Inquisitor and its competitors. Newspapers are really what made cops honest in the West. With a few hundred thousand citizens ready to go riot at any moment, the cops have more than just noble prestige to consider. The 1800's were a time of great violence by the people in the streets, and part of that was driven by the ability of the newspapers to tell people the truth about society. Sharn has a newspaper. Can I ignore this reality? Will I? No, I incorporate the influence of newspapers in my Sharn. Consider my comment about the Watch railroading someone to blame for a Noble's murder in the Cogs. That is based mostly on S:CoT's comment that there is virtually no Watch presence in the Cogs. They have no trust with the people, who think all Watch are corrupt and not to be trusted (fairly true of the Watch in the Cogs), since they're an arm of the nobility (not true, they're an arm of organized crime, who have more money and interest in the Cogs). In the face of that kind of resistance, are the Watch (or Tharashk) going to fight their way through the Cogs trying to find the real murderer, or just pick someone nobody in the Cogs will care gets blamed, and string him up for the crime? Historically, the suggestion in our world is the latter, up until newspapers really got rolling. Once newspapers started reporting on murders, started publishing the real evidence, things got a whole lot wonkier for the cops. That's where my Sharn is right now. They are used to doing things the easy way, and the Inquisitor is going out and doing the legwork to show how the system is corrupt. Yes, to a certain extent that is willful ignorance on the part of my Watch, but they are in the process of learning just what a slippery slope they are on. House Tharashk is not the be all and end all of investigation. If House Tharashk has to go into the Cogs, they have to face Clan Boramar and Daashk, and maybe even House Tarkanan, depending on the crime. I don't know about you, but in my Sharn, House Tharashk gets its butt handed to it walking into the Cogs like arrogant, self-righteous prigs. "The House Tharashk" treatment gets the "back alley" treatment and either goes home with a bloodied nose or in body bags, unless it plays by the rules of the concrete jungle, and part of that is House Tharashk does not touch Clan Boramar. Maybe you play your Houses like gods on Eberron, but I don't. It takes more to find a criminal than the ability to track him down, if he's got family. A wise assassin once said, "A knife in the back puts a cramp in the style of any wizard." You suggest a dead commoner would go unnoticed. Yes, but only to a certain point. That's a different kind of corruption and that sells papers too. The Code of Galifar seems to protect all people, not just nobility. A newspaperman walks into the office of the Commander of the Watch and asks him how close they are to solving the death of Joe Nobody from the Cogs in Menthis from last week. If the Commander doesn't have an answer, and doesn't put anyone on the case, what do you think the long term result is going to be? Sharn has newspapers (Sharn Inquisitor). It has a code of justice. It has access to a multitude of investigative techniques. I don't see any place for the suggestion that nobles always get away with it and commoners never get away with it. It has all the elements necessary for responsible government to become a reality. I may have moved that schedule up somewhat compared to what others may believe Eberron is capable of, but they put everything a post-renaissance government requires in place, and so responsible law enforcement and legal systems are inevitable.
Kreistor1 04-17-06, 12:12 PM	Roxlimn: I think that Eberron is fundamentally different from anything remotely resmebling European history. So different, in fact, that any imagining you can make that makes any sort of serious correlation between the two will probably end up having some kind of disconnect. Uhmmm... Legal Code of Justice. Telegraph. Locomotives. Steamships. Blimps. Scientific development and invention. Production on a massive scale. A general reduction in the influence of nobility. Yeah, there's absolutely no parallels between Khorvaire and Europe. None at all. Roxlimn: Kings and Queens are treated equally in every way. Where can you find such in European history? Elizabethan England, actually. Elizabeth not only handed England mastery of the waves in the Atlantic, she helped make many parts of Europe Protestant. She was, in the end, one of the single most effective monarchs in European history. Patriarchal or Matriarchal doesn't really have a bearing on history or development of nations, as much as it merely broadens who gets to participate in the development. That Eberron may acknowledge female equality at an earlier stage than our own history does not make the development of history significantly different. The major developments of society, that of representative government, a precedent style legal system, uncorrupt government, and so on will not be significantly affected by social enlightenment that only allows a higher percentage of the population to participate in those developments. Roxlimn: I think you're overlooking or intentionally reading some passages in the books the way you want to. Pot and kettle. We all do that, and you not least amoung us. Tonpa: It really may be, could you point out some passage that points the racism out. Actually, Roxlimn is right that there are exclusions from the Code of Galifar. I think you can find it in the Darguun section of the ECS. Goblinoids are not extended the rights of the Code of Galifar, because at the time Galifar formed, the goblinoids inside Galifar were slaves for the most part. It's part of why Darguun was a problem whenteh goblinoids marched in and took over: technically, the Code of Galifar did not allow the Goblinoids to claim that land. Orcs, I believe, are also not extended the rights of the Code, but that was mainly because at the time that Galifar was formed, the Orcs were limited to some tribes in the Mror mountains no one really had any contact with, and the Shadow Marches, which Galifar didn't absorb until House Sivis happened to notice the tribes there. So, technically, there were Orcs insde the territory Galifar claimed, but no one really knew they existed to the extent that they should be conquered or absorbed. It may be the Code was later changed to include Orcs in order to set up House Tharashk, but I can't quote chapter and verse.
Roxlimn 04-18-06, 10:17 AM	Cool comments, you two! :) Please forgive the occasional snide or arrogant comment. I'm told that I occasionally sound that way, but please understand that nothing personal is meant. Tonpa: Yes and no. As I said, I think you're limited by Western philosophical thought. According to your thinking, literacy can only be supported by an institution - that is, at the very least, a social mechanism, structure, or contract. Social meaning it involved the interaction of at least two people and thereby specifically being segregated from the personal. I don't believe so. Learning and literacy can be developed in the family (which is an institution) or a school (which is an institution) or within the community in a variety of locations and circumstances (which may or may not be institutions). However, the main drive to learn and become literate can be internally driven, once culturally inculcated through an institution (the family or whatever) and is thus independent of such institutions. Literacy, therefore, in some ways, might be said to only be dependent on institution in the manner that practically any civilized behavior can be said to be so, which says practically nothing about it at all. This is what I mean when I say that literacy isn't necessarily bound by an institution (in both senses of the word that you might use). Kreistor1: This is what I mean by willfully ignorant: A couple things to notice about Sharn. First, S:CoT suggests that Zone of Truth gets used to identify criminals. Personally, I don't allow that at all. I mean, if you want to pick and choose whichever parts of the books you want, you might as well be playing some other world and come on sauntering over here insisting that that's the Khorvaire we should all play. Even though I have opinions of my own, I won't pretend that it is in any way universal. You choose to see Khorvaire as the US or Canada regardless of any official references that might say otherwise. That's willfully ignorant. Of if you prefer, you're simply forcing your opinions on us, but I think that that's worse. But there are good cops that won't use the rough stuff, and good cops that won't give the noble a pass just for being a noble. There is one patrol of the Watch (not cops) that behaves this way. They are noted as being the exception, not the rule. The Code of Galifar does not seem to give nobility a pass on crime vs. commoners. What's there to enforce that? The Sharn Inquisitor and its competitors. Newspapers are really what made cops honest in the West. With a few hundred thousand citizens ready to go riot at any moment, the cops have more than just noble prestige to consider. The 1800's were a time of great violence by the people in the streets, and part of that was driven by the ability of the newspapers to tell people the truth about society. Sharn has a newspaper. Can I ignore this reality? Will I? No, I incorporate the influence of newspapers in my Sharn. You're again being willful in your interpretation. The Korranberg Chronicle and similar publications in Sharn aren't public trusts with special legal protections and interest groups making them such. They're private enterprises with one goal and one goal only: to turn a profit. They're self-serving to a fault and both ruthless and selfish. Looking after the public interests, after all, doesn't make the newspaper more powerful. Looking after the interests of the rich and powerful ruling elite does, and papers that survive almost always have this characteristic. That's where my Sharn is right now. Ah. I get it. I'm not talking about your Sharn, no. My bad. I should have made that clear from the start. I'm not commenting about your creative inventions. House Tharashk is not the be all and end all of investigation. If House Tharashk has to go into the Cogs, they have to face Clan Boramar and Daashk, and maybe even House Tarkanan, depending on the crime. I don't know about you, but in my Sharn, House Tharashk gets its butt handed to it walking into the Cogs like arrogant, self-righteous prigs. "The House Tharashk" treatment gets the "back alley" treatment and either goes home with a bloodied nose or in body bags, unless it plays by the rules of the concrete jungle, and part of that is House Tharashk does not touch Clan Boramar. Maybe you play your Houses like gods on Eberron, but I don't. It takes more to find a criminal than the ability to track him down, if he's got family. A wise assassin once said, "A knife in the back puts a cramp in the style of any wizard." House Tharashk is a continent wide enterprise that's got a monopoly on the most expensive and powerful jewelry on the planet: Dragonshards. Think De Beers, with teeth. If an agent of such a powerful company goes into the Cogs, people who know better talk softly. This is borne out by hints in the various published Eberron adventures (based on how Cannith agents behave and are treated), as well as by general statements about the Dragonmarked Houses. The patriarchs of DM Houses rival Five Nations Monarchs in POWER and prestige. When the Crown Prince walks into the Cogs, you don't plant a dagger in him unless you want to die really, really badly. Now, you're suggesting that a minor city-based two bit criminal organization is going to pit its strength directly against a world power whose stock in trade is finding things and people? You must be kidding. If a House Tharashk bounty hunter ever goes into Sharn, he will of course contact Clan Boromar, just to be polite. But if it came to it, the lesser between the two is Clan Boromar, and it would be stupid to anger a world power just because you have a big ego. You suggest a dead commoner would go unnoticed. Yes, but only to a certain point. That's a different kind of corruption and that sells papers too. The Code of Galifar seems to protect all people, not just nobility. A newspaperman walks into the office of the Commander of the Watch and asks him how close they are to solving the death of Joe Nobody from the Cogs in Menthis from last week. If the Commander doesn't have an answer, and doesn't put anyone on the case, what do you think the long term result is going to be? A corrupt city where the ruling powers are the rich and the powerful? How about a mostly corrupt Watch? Pardon me, but isn't that what the City of Sharn is supposed to be like? I think that a news reporter who likes to make a nuisance of himself will quickly find himself on the wrong end of too many people, and if he's not rich or powerful, he could end up pretty dead, pretty quick. Sharn has newspapers (Sharn Inquisitor). It has a code of justice. It has access to a multitude of investigative techniques. I don't see any place for the suggestion that nobles always get away with it and commoners never get away with it. It has all the elements necessary for responsible government to become a reality. I may have moved that schedule up somewhat compared to what others may believe Eberron is capable of, but they put everything a post-renaissance government requires in place, and so responsible law enforcement and legal systems are inevitable. You don't see it because you choose not to see it. Uhmmm... Legal Code of Justice. Telegraph. Locomotives. Steamships. Blimps. Scientific development and invention. Production on a massive scale. A general reduction in the influence of nobility. Yeah, there's absolutely no parallels between Khorvaire and Europe. None at all. Huh? 1. Legal Code of Justice: Chinese Bureaucrats and Roman Law alike, it's a worldwide phenomenon. I don't think that the assumption that Legal Code of Justice is a purely European phenomenon is going to fly. 2. Speaking Stones, not Telegraphs. Way ahead of that. Kind of like Talking Drums, actually. Not European. 3. Continent-wide Lightning Rail. Unifies Khorvaire cultually and allows transport of massive goods (it's much bigger than a locomotive. Conceptually, similar to Han-period Chinese canals, actually. 4. Elemental Galleons, not Steamships. Massive shipping on a grand scale. This development mirrors the development of the advanced junk rig design, which allowed ships to travel both into the wind and downwind, making China a trading sea power. The massive load capacities and time schedules were not compatible with the impact of steam shipping. 5. Airships, not blimps. They're much better in many ways. For one thing, they won't automatically crash if they're set on fire. This is really more similar to completely fantastic than blimps. If you insist, I think the development of the modern Airplane is probably a more apt comparison. 6. Magical, not scientific development and invention. Again, not a European phenomenon. Up to about the late 1600s, most of the world's most influential original inventions came from China and India, with contributions from the SEAsian and North Asian kingdoms. The Imperial fascination with all things new and inventive ensured a steady stream of incredible inventions from most of the inward-looking Chinese dynasties, and this value was sporadically emulated throughout the region at one point or another. The coming of the preeminence of invention and innovation came late into Europe, not early. Remember that most innovations came from before the war, not recently. The Lightning Rail isn't new. Skyforges aren't new. There hasn't been a innovative revolution lately for a long, long time. 7. Production on a massive scale. Huh? Are you reading the same ECS I'm reading? The production of goods on Eberron are still driven by personal manufacture, by Magewrights with the right spells. Mass production and standardization of parts was invented in China when they discovered how to cast iron, which allowed them to arm their massive armies with standardized weapons with replaceable parts. This technological development would not reach the West for a long, long time. 8. General reduction in the influence of nobility. Huh? Where? With the ascension of the Five Nations from Galifar, nobles who previously held advisory posts (the Brelish Parliament for one), acquired REAL POWER. In particular, the Warlords of the Raths of Karrn recalled all the former feudal influences they had prior to the forming of the Kingdom of Galifar. The Church of the Silver Flame has Thrane in a strangehold. Aundair is just as feudal as it ever was, if not more (since the nobles lately have actually had to fight and levy armies). Where is this mysterious reduction in the influence of nobility you're seeing? If anything, nobles had less power when the Kingdom of Galifar was still extant, but not now. Oh. Just a reminder, I'm not talking about your Khorvaire, in which all of these things might be true. Khorvaire looks like Europe because you either choose to see it that way, or because you don't know enough about the rest of the world to know better. Elizabethan England, actually. Elizabeth not only handed England mastery of the waves in the Atlantic, she helped make many parts of Europe Protestant. She was, in the end, one of the single most effective monarchs in European history. Elizabeth is an exception, not a rule. Did she make women equal to men during her reign? Were there as many women admirals as men? Don't be absurd. She was a great monarch, but she was so in spite of the male chauvinism, not because there wasn't any. Patriarchal or Matriarchal doesn't really have a bearing on history or development of nations, as much as it merely broadens who gets to participate in the development. That Eberron may acknowledge female equality at an earlier stage than our own history does not make the development of history significantly different. The major developments of society, that of representative government, a precedent style legal system, uncorrupt government, and so on will not be significantly affected by social enlightenment that only allows a higher percentage of the population to participate in those developments. HAHAHA! And what makes you think that Western nations aren't still sexist? Heck, what modern power (East or West) isn't sexist? Eberron's insistence on complete equality of the sexes is almost completely unprecendented. It's absolutely alien to most societies today. You're trying too hard to make Eberron Western to see why it isn't, necessarily. Pot and kettle. We all do that, and you not least amoung us. True, but you do it to such an extent that it seems that you can't even see your own humongous bias. I've already confessed to a bias, so you really have no need to repeat it.
Tonpa 04-18-06, 10:55 AM	I don't believe so. Learning and literacy can be developed in the family (which is an institution) or a school (which is an institution) or within the community in a variety of locations and circumstances (which may or may not be institutions). However, the main drive to learn and become literate can be internally driven, once culturally inculcated through an institution (the family or whatever) and is thus independent of such institutions. Literacy, therefore, in some ways, might be said to only be dependent on institution in the manner that practically any civilized behavior can be said to be so, which says practically nothing about it at all. I found it’s good to point out the meanings of the words used, helping the process of argumentation a lot. I understand that my knowledge of Eastern philosophy is somewhat limited, but these points that you point out have been discussed in west also. The inner working of persons self image, which produces the need to compete and develop, is started by institutions, which you acknowledged. I can see the point of make difference for these needs of personal motives and outside made institutional motivations, but it’s a bit artificial in my personal opinion still. Again I can see your point here and I appreciate the term “might” you use here. I still feel the political institution for people’s participation, as catalyst for full literacy inducer, which I was looking after, as viable thought. This is what I mean when I say that literacy isn't necessarily bound by an institution (in both senses of the word that you might use). Here you go in opinion factor, which is fine. I said it was possible to use political institutions and made quite few comments on how you could also induce the same effect. Sorry that I sound so sour here, I still have to forget the earlier post.. Good posts all-in all.
Roxlimn 04-18-06, 11:22 AM	Sure, it's possible that literacy would primarily be institutionally mediated, but it's also possible that it's not. From what I understood of what you were saying before, you were implying that literacy has to be institutionally based, as opposed to culturally based.
Tonpa 04-18-06, 12:09 PM	Political ideology and philosophy was my intention. I’m sorry if I offended you someway, it really was not my intention. EDIT: To me culture is collection of Institutions, with the terms meaning kept in mind. I think the literacy discussion has run it's course.
Roxlimn 04-18-06, 12:45 PM	That's an uncommon definition. Culture isn't just the necessarily social institutions that exist in a society. It's more than that. For one thing, it also involves values, and values are not institutions (although some values can be institutionalized).
Kreistor1 04-18-06, 02:07 PM	K1: That's where my Sharn is right now. R: Ah. I get it. I'm not talking about your Sharn, no. My bad. I should have made that clear from the start. I'm not commenting about your creative inventions. I have repeatedly stated that I know what the original was and that I changed it for reason "X". If you missed that, it's your mistake, not mine. So, having read this and understanding that I'm talking about my own interpretations and the extensions I make to change some authors' conclusions to a different conclusion, why are you writing anything else in that huge message? You should have clipped everything n this message except that statement and left just that one quote. But you didn't. Gotta wonder why. What's the point to writing anything else, when you now know why I was talking the way I was? Your arguments don't hold water with me, because I rejected the original authors at the start, so what's the point continuing the argument against me? I'm going to assume for now it's because you are interested in the reasons I made those changes, since there is no other point to continuing this. You choose to see Khorvaire as the US or Canada regardless of any official references that might say otherwise. That's willfully ignorant. Of if you prefer, you're simply forcing your opinions on us, but I think that that's worse. I think you don't understand what "willful ignorance" really means. Ignorance is the state of not knowing information. Willful ignorance is intentionally avoiding learning the information that might reveal your state of ignorance: you are ignornat because you want to be ignorant. It can be said, for instance, that some Nazi officials were Willfully Ignorant of the Concentration Camps: they suspected the existence, but never did the groundpounding to find out if they really existed, so that they could go to sleep at night knowing they weren't directly involved and they might be wrong about the camps anyway. But the Nazi official that saw a reference to a concentration camp in a document that crossed his desk was no longer ignorant: he may still deny the existence, but he's not willfully ignorant anymore, just lying to himself. I am not willfully ignorant. I have read all of the books. I know what the originals say, and I changed things based on what I felt was unreasonable or inconsistent. There is no ignorance in that. It is a DM's right, and that's why Rule 0 exists. Since I know about the fact that written in the S:CoT, it is suggested that Zone of Truth is used on criminals, I am not ignorant and thus I cannot be, by definition, willfully ignorant. I merely disagree with the authors on their conclusion that it could legally be used, because I feel that I know more about Law (having taken a Law course in University) and why it could not be used that way: having studied the subject, I know the arguments agaisnt the Zone of Ttuth where I cannot be assured the authors did that same background study. Remember, most designers at WotC get there by designing good dungeons and monsters, not by knowing tons of trivia about our world, it's history, and why we were where we were when we were there. Treating them like they are gods with omnipotent knowledge about the subjects they write about is a rookie mistake: every bit of fluff in their world creations has to be read with an eye to the reasons behind the existence of those facts. Cripes, most don't even have the ecological sense to make certain predators have enough prey to live in a particular place, much less know that in the 1800's it was legal to write a contract for the contractor to provide expert advice, but the contractor could lie to the contractee and give the opposite of the correct opinion, in order to personally benefit from the mistake the contractee would then make based on said legal opinion. (Inherently breach of contract now, BTW.) Our Law is based on Reason, and by extension, so is the legal systems in Galifar. The western legal systems (there are a couple) all refer back to a document similar to the US Constitution or the Canadian Constitution. These documents provide the ultimate beliefs of the people, and guide the judges in their rulings about the Law. You see, Law is written by non-judges who are not competent to judge whether they adhere to the Constitution, and so the Judges decide both if the accused broke the Law, and whether that Law was legal based on the Constitution. Laws that defy the Constitution are discarded. Eastern Legal systems had no such Constitution. There was no equivalent to the Code of Galifar in their system. The monarch handed down laws, then the judges tried to shoehorn the new law into old law written by previous monarchs, and created horrible systems whereby no one could do anything except break the law. Each monarch was incapable of absorbing all the previous laws, and so as the law grew, it became increasingly inconsistent and impossible to manage. A law written by a monarch could not be discarded as being improper because the monarch was the Constitution. The existence of the Code of Galifar demands that the Eastern systems are not the model for Galifaran law. That it even exists demands that a Western style, either civil or precedent system, is the model for Galifaran law, not Eastern. Since the Code of Galifar trumps the right of Kings, Khorvaire has a Constitutional monarchy, and the Constitution is greater than the nobility. You must understand that most game designers do not have the time to study what they write about. In the "Zone of Truth" case, we've just got someone that looks at a spell, says it is a great tool for cops, and so writes that it gets used by them. The designer probably thinks that since we don't have a guaranteed method of proving the truth of someone's words, the police aren't allowed to use the information gathered from such. That's not the actual case: the law preventing the use of something in our world is the guarantee that you cannot be forced to testify against yourself in any way, and that decision is very, very old. It's given to you when you're arrested: You have the Right to remain silent. That's what stops the police from using a Zone of Truth in our world. When developing a legal system, you must understand how our own legal system developed. Do you know? You probably don't. Our legal system is Ancient. Do you know how ancient? It's Roman. Old Roman. Pre-Christ Roman. Do the Eberron writers know that? If not, how can they invent a inherently consistent legal system? Whenever dealing with something like that, you have to take the word of the artists with a grain of salt. They do what they can, but you can't treat them as inherently right, especially on subjects you've actually studied and know they got dead wrong. That's my case. They're wrong because I know how it all works, and their system doesn't hold water. One of the joys of Eberron is that they do not define vast quantities of the world, including how the legal system works. They describe what probably happens to PC's, because that's what most DM's are concerned with, but whether the Law is Civil, Precedent, or Other, it's not important to most. They don't actually say anywhere how the legal system really works. So, as a DM, it is my perogative to fill that hole in any way I see fit. You can second guess my decision to go that route, but frankly, trying to find Letter of the Law in a document written by artists is going to be, ultimately, inconsistent and wasted effort. You're again being willful in your interpretation. By definition, everyone interprets what they read, and everyone is willful in doing so. Including you. The Korranberg Chronicle and similar publications in Sharn aren't public trusts with special legal protections and interest groups making them such. They're private enterprises with one goal and one goal only: to turn a profit. They're self-serving to a fault and both ruthless and selfish. Looking after the public interests, after all, doesn't make the newspaper more powerful. Looking after the interests of the rich and powerful ruling elite does, and papers that survive almost always have this characteristic. Uhm, what world have you been living on? Newspapers make money by a) selling more copies And b) selling advertising space (which has costs proportional to number of newspapers sold). B is the far greater protion of most newspapers' incomes. Where in that equation does "serving the powerful elite" fit? How does serving the power sell more papers when serving the public interest will gain more readership and more advertisers at your doorstep? Newspapers survive based on selling copies, not serving the interests of powerful people. Ever since they were created, newspapers have ensured their survival by reporting on the elite, not serving them. Newspapers have always been the servants of the public, even from the earliest days. One of the first things the printing press did was publish Martin Luther's list of grievances against the Roman Catholic church, beginning a war that would see genocide in the Netherlands and Spain launch an Armada against Britain. The elite, in this case, was the Pope, and the printing press most certainly did not serve teh elite in that case. The elite have tried to halt the presses, but all they ever got for it in our world was rioting by the masses, which often resulted in regime change and the elite soon learned to go hands off. The first Caesars knew the truth: power comes from the people, and it always has. The printing press gave that power back in Europe. People are people, in both Earth and Eberron. Power comes not from birth or some mark on your chest, but from the people and their willingness to accept leadership. Newspapers are the first step toward giving people the knowledge they need to make the decisions of government themselves, and just because some artist writes differently, doesn't make it true. House Tharashk is a continent wide enterprise that's got a monopoly on the most expensive and powerful jewelry on the planet: Dragonshards. Think De Beers, with teeth. So? they're powerful in Shadow Marches. Big hairy deal. It makes them money. Yay. Power is only effective if they're scared of you. A House Tharashk investigator enters the cogs and disappears, who's to know who did it? Send in another. He disappears. And another... get the point, yet? Now you've got to go in with protection, and what happens when half the squad goes down in a hail of bolt fire? Send in more? You find the lead investigator with his throat slit in the Inn one morning. What do you do now? If an agent of such a powerful company goes into the Cogs, people who know better talk softly. Are you completely barmy? In the Cogs, Clan Boramar IS the powerful company. House Tharashk may be a large international, but Boramar doesn't care one whit about Dragonshards or diamonds. They deal in crime on a vast, general scale. Okay, the dragonshard trade stops passing through Sharn: Clan Boramar just laughs. Tharashk jsut cut itself off from the largest market in Khorvaire, and starts bleeding money. Who lost that round? Don't overplay the Houses, R. They have their monopolies, but that's all they have. Now, you're suggesting that a minor city-based two bit criminal organization is going to pit its strength directly against a world power whose stock in trade is finding things and people? You did notice that Clan Boramar controls the Sharn City Council, yes? Hardly 2-bit. They've got political and economic influence in Sharn on par, or more powerful, than all the Houses combined. The Houses are powerful, but inherently limited to their current size. They'll never gain more powerful, since legally they are not allowed anything more than their monopolies. Clan Boramar has no such limitation. But if it came to it, the lesser between the two is Clan Boromar, and it would be stupid to anger a world power just because you have a big ego. World power? All Houses are disallowed by the Code of Galifar to field armies for any reason other than mercenary. Tharashk has a lot of military strength, yes, but they cannot use it for their own purposes. Boramar simply sits back, kills any idiot Tharashk that comes after their people, and laughs at the impotent threat of Tharashk retaliation. House Tharashk does not have the power to affect Boramar in any legal way. They can get down and dirty and try to fight Boramar on their own terms, but with Boramar's influence on the City Council, they can now legally direct the Watch to arrest any d'Tharashk that commits crime. Maybe it doesn't stick, but it's one more arm of Boramar sticking it to Tharashk. Tharashk tries to turn it around and send the Watch into the Cogs, where they are hated byt the people, and they risk riot and regime change. All the Houses are the same, Roxlimn: they have a mercantile monopoly, but that's all that they have. The Code of Galifar hamstrings their efforts to expand beyond their own borders, and so they must acquiesce to organizations like Clan Boramar that are willing to violate the law just like any other mercantile outfit. Having a cool power in a mark on your body doesn't make you a god or immune to the tactics of Organized Crime. I think that a news reporter who likes to make a nuisance of himself will quickly find himself on the wrong end of too many people, and if he's not rich or powerful, he could end up pretty dead, pretty quick. And create a martyr. Here's the problem with what you're suggesting, and this is what actually happened in our history. Someone tried to influence the news, be it criminal or noble. The newspapers wrote about the attempted subversion, and told the people they expected to suffer for it soon. People bought the papaer day after day, waiting for somethig to happen. And it didn't. Why not? Because by writing about it, the influencers realized that if they went through with the threat, they would suffer greater repercussions. It could, and did, cause riots. It could see the public revealing to the authorities everything they knew about crimes they had covered up based on old threats. Threatening a newspaper was one thing, but actually going through with it after they'd revealed the threat to the public hurt far more than just letting the news go on. Organizations like Clan Boramar and the Houses and Nobility can only get away with things so long as they stay out of the public eye, and by going to the newspapers, they hand the newsmen knowledge that they are on the right track and they should keep pushing the investigations. Threatening newspapers has historically had the opposite effect to the intended interference with the Truth. What you're suggesting would be what happened was tried and failed. Once the people get a taste of the Truth, they won't let it go and that means they'll fight to bring it back against those that are wanting to take it away. What you suggest does not work. K1: Legal Code of Justice. Telegraph. Locomotives. Steamships. Blimps. Scientific development and invention. Production on a massive scale. A general reduction in the influence of nobility. Yeah, there's absolutely no parallels between Khorvaire and Europe. None at all. R: Huh? It's called sarcasm. You don't see any parallels between European history and Eberron history. I merely presented some of the parallels that I see for you. There are many clear parallels between Eberron and Europe that suggest Eberron is a close approximation of 1800's Europe. You don't like them, that's fine: you don't have to accept them if you don't want to. I see the parallels and that's all the matters for my Eberron. That's one of the joys of Eberron: it's incompletely defined so that we each make Eberron our own. You don't like the parallels I used to justify my view of Eberron as 1800's Europe? Too bad and have a nice day. I see them which is cool enough. And what makes you think that Western nations aren't still sexist? Never said they were or weren't. I only indicated that Equality changes who participates in government. If you'd like to go back to that quote and explain exactly where you think I was saying the West eradicated sexism, please do so; frankly, that's a daunting task since I didn't. You're trying too hard to make Eberron Western to see why it isn't, necessarily. One of the wonderful things about Eberron is that it is very loosely undefined. We, as DM's, are expected to fill in those holes as we see fit. They intentionally left those holes there so that we can make Eberron our own. Your arguments against my own filling of those holes are, ultimately, futile. We are supposed to make our Eberron's unique to our perspective, so that we don't get into arguments about what the right way to do things. (Such as this argument, for instance.) So, your suggestion that I am wrong in making certain aspects of Sharn or Breland or Khorvaire Western in flavour is completely and wholly wrong, misinformed, and just plain a waste of my time. I am not wrong and you are not wrong. Your Eberron is your Eberron and enjoy playing it the way you want to, just as I'll enjoy playing it the way I want to.
Tonpa 04-18-06, 03:00 PM	You're again being willful in your interpretation. The Korranberg Chronicle and similar publications in Sharn aren't public trusts with special legal protections and interest groups making them such. They're private enterprises with one goal and one goal only: to turn a profit. They're self-serving to a fault and both ruthless and selfish. Looking after the public interests, after all, doesn't make the newspaper more powerful. Looking after the interests of the rich and powerful ruling elite does, and papers that survive almost always have this characteristic. I must say I disagree here strongly. The freedom of press and the full journalistic ideology has been one of the most prominent factors of ideological and political movers. It may be that this is western notion, but I still feel it’s internationally appreciated and thought to be fact. The publishing houses have profit in mind, but that has really not undermined the force of published information. The yellow journalism may have bad connotation, but it’s harsh to judge the most studied form of media to be all ideologically void. Media has power, newspapers are form of media, and therefore they have power. To produce form of information, you must force your way thru legislation. If the legislation allows the paper to be made, then there again must be ideological feel that that’s acceptable. Which for me mean there is legal protection for the publishing house and interest groups to influence the full journalist process. I come again to include institutions here, but lets call it culture. The culture must support the information gathering, spreading and marketing process. And the culture that appreciates the information itself will itself be affected by the information. The information will therefore affect the working of cultures morals and the police corruption. This effect can be direct, the peoples anger to local rulers actions against corruption and the officers themselves, or indirectly to the officers personal social units mores. You don't see it because you choose not to see it. I must say that I don’t see it either. And I presume that you need to see it? If so, why? If you want the social system to support prejudices and exceptional noble rights you can do that, there is really nothing to prevent this. To support this by written information from the books, you need to interbred somewhat the information, but this is viable. There was opinions made, your answers seem quite a bit like discrediting attempts, while I presume this is not your intention. 1. Legal Code of Justice: Chinese Bureaucrats and Roman Law alike, it's a worldwide phenomenon. I don't think that the assumption that Legal Code of Justice is a purely European phenomenon is going to fly. This is true. 2. Speaking Stones, not Telegraphs. Way ahead of that. Kind of like Talking Drums, actually. Not European. No. This is more infrastructural and developed than talking drums, which is ingenious way to communicate, but still quite limited like flags, lights and similar. Telegraphs is good comparison by far. Information that is send is almost identical, with message form being collections of sentences, numbers and possible description. The distance covered is quite identical, plus the crossing the big waters, which is later achieved. 3. Continent-wide Lightning Rail. Unifies Khorvaire cultually and allows transport of massive goods (it's much bigger than a locomotive. Conceptually, similar to Han-period Chinese canals, actually. The railway system is much more similar in idea. The idea of building system to support man made machine by only man produced goods, nearly everywhere is more than to utilize the natures own force to aid simple constructs. The canal system is impressive and you can make the comparison if you like, but the railroad still is, in my opinion closer comparison. 4. Elemental Galleons, not Steamships. Massive shipping on a grand scale. This development mirrors the development of the advanced junk rig design, which allowed ships to travel both into the wind and downwind, making China a trading sea power. The massive load capacities and time schedules were not compatible with the impact of steam shipping. Same argument could be made with Spanish ships (if not with size). Still the elemental vessel can travel unaided, producing it’s own thrust. Which is not really equal to steam engine in power, but is by effect. The steamships big flaw was the consumption of fuel and the size of engines. This is not present in elemental vessels. Steamships greatest ace was the ability to move unaided, like rowboat, but without many rowers, and this elemental vessel has. 5. Airships, not blimps. They're much better in many ways. For one thing, they won't automatically crash if they're set on fire. This is really more similar to completely fantastic than blimps. If you insist, I think the development of the modern Airplane is probably a more apt comparison. Airships seem to move equal or lesser speed than blimps, much lover rate that planes. They seem to lift more than blimp of equal size and by far more than plane of similar size. The movement, in the opening trailer of DnD online, is similar to blimp. The way they dock to towers is similar to blimps. Blimps don’t really automatically crash if they set on fire. They usually don’t set on fire. Hindenburg accident was caused by the error of coating material and the political fuel alteration. When accident do happen the blimp will descent, not crash like plane. Blimp can hover, which I presume airship can do also. Blimp seems quite adequate comparison. And it has restaurant, cabins and refreshment areas. 7. Production on a massive scale. Huh? Are you reading the same ECS I'm reading? The production of goods on Eberron are still driven by personal manufacture, by Magewrights with the right spells. Mass production and standardization of parts was invented in China when they discovered how to cast iron, which allowed them to arm their massive armies with standardized weapons with replaceable parts. This technological development would not reach the West for a long, long time. For mass production, I thought so too. But there was some speak of factories, which I don’t prefer. But the word is used. Standardization of mass produced parts is modern idea. Comes from was. The mass production of some standardized tool, with some replacement arts is old idea. Mesopotamian army used that, Egyptians used that in chirurgical instruments and the Romans mass-produced their armors. Etc. This is not mass production in modern sense. For that we need ideology, which was pointed out to be present in Venetian manufactures, caller Arsenal. That is quite modern thinking and production in massive scale. If you accept the factories mentioned in books, which was pointed out to me and what I don’t still like, you lift the Eberron to early modern production. 8. General reduction in the influence of nobility. Huh? Where? I felt this way also. Felt Eberron was democratic oriented in ideology, and in reality if not in theory. Khorvaire looks like Europe because you either choose to see it that way, or because you don't know enough about the rest of the world to know better. The comparisons were valid. The point was to point out that the comparison is valid, not discredit that there was other options. Europe is quite good comparison. Japan is good comparison. Indian Gupta is really good comparison. Don’t discredit the comparison if it’s too mainstream for your liking. And what makes you think that Western nations aren't still sexist? Heck, what modern power (East or West) isn't sexist? Did he make the opinion that there is a nation that is not sexist? No. Is there? If you look legislations of for example Scandinavian nations, then yes there is, but the people there are at least partly sexists, males and females. This is a development of representation. Western if you like, but really part of global development. By the way, why you use the “west” so often? The argumentative factor of accusation is quite valid, but there has really not been west-east comparison here. It could be better if you used eastern examples to clarify your points and use them as a tool, not discredit others for using western examples, if they in fact use them. The comparison, if made, is made for increase the feel of the argument, not to discredit the Chinese history, or eastern philosophy, which is extensive and most here have some knowledge of. Eberron's insistence on complete equality of the sexes is almost completely unprecendented. It's absolutely alien to most societies today. Most maybe, don’t really now. For the historical feel it has not really been necessary to enforce sexism in games for quite a long time now. The art enforces it and some of the stories maybe, but these are mostly profiting with prejudice institutions, which may or may not be supported by population as whole or nation as unit. The ideology of equality has been introduced with family group itself, with different sores varying by ages. Ideological forced sexism has grown with communities and by that way the governing factors. The family is not sexist by nature, therefore not even the community. Therefore it’s not so impossible to theorize an society in game that has equality of sexes, and it can still have all the story elements that the gm wants. Even if the family group has husband as tender of children and the community group thinks he cannot protect himself, it does not mean he cannot have a say in community’s matters. If the institution network appreciates the family shores equally to more society economical professions, the governing power can be equal. If it thinks that the family shores are of more value, then it is viable to have opinion that community is governed by the housekeeping men from the earlier example, while the women are traveling merchants. True, but you do it to such an extent that it seems that you can't even see your own humongous bias. I've already confessed to a bias, so you really have no need to repeat it. You understand the first quote you made was for me?
Roxlimn 04-19-06, 10:22 AM	Kreistor1: You're free to make your own changes, but I don't accept that the changes you make are better or make more sense. They may to you, but that isn't universal. Eastern Legal systems had no such Constitution. There was no equivalent to the Code of Galifar in their system. The monarch handed down laws, then the judges tried to shoehorn the new law into old law written by previous monarchs, and created horrible systems whereby no one could do anything except break the law. Each monarch was incapable of absorbing all the previous laws, and so as the law grew, it became increasingly inconsistent and impossible to manage. A law written by a monarch could not be discarded as being improper because the monarch was the Constitution. See Confucius, Mandate of Heaven. Also see, Han Dynasty, Ch'in Dynasty. Also see Kingdom of Koryo. Law of the Indian Kingdoms. From which law systems are you getting these statements, specifically? Since the Code of Galifar trumps the right of Kings, Khorvaire has a Constitutional monarchy, and the Constitution is greater than the nobility. Not really. The Five Nations Monarchs continue to more or less adhere to the Code of Galifar, but how much of that they retain and how they interpret the Code is largely dependent on their own leanings and agendas. It's hardly correct to say that the Code of Galifar trumps the rights of any Five Nations Monarch. Khorvaire has feudal monarchies. It's not a conclusion. It says so point-blank right in the ECS. The designer probably thinks that since we don't have a guaranteed method of proving the truth of someone's words, the police aren't allowed to use the information gathered from such. That's not the actual case: the law preventing the use of something in our world is the guarantee that you cannot be forced to testify against yourself in any way, and that decision is very, very old. It's given to you when you're arrested: You have the Right to remain silent. That's what stops the police from using a Zone of Truth in our world. Provide basis that Khorvairian Law does not accept self-incrimination. When developing a legal system, you must understand how our own legal system developed. Do you know? You probably don't. Our legal system is Ancient. Do you know how ancient? It's Roman. Old Roman. Pre-Christ Roman. If Khorvairian Law is incompatible with Roman Law, then perhaps it isn't based on that, no? They do what they can, but you can't treat them as inherently right, especially on subjects you've actually studied and know they got dead wrong. That's my case. They're wrong because I know how it all works, and their system doesn't hold water. Actually, there isn't much of a system in place as yet, and what little there is you don't accept. You have shown absolutely no basis to be saying this. So, as a DM, it is my perogative to fill that hole in any way I see fit. You can say that it rains pink marshmallows in the summer in Khorvaire for all I care. You'd have about as much basis for THAT as you've shown for your statements so far. Newspapers make money by a) selling more copies And b) selling advertising space (which has costs proportional to number of newspapers sold). B is the far greater protion of most newspapers' incomes. Where in that equation does "serving the powerful elite" fit? How does serving the power sell more papers when serving the public interest will gain more readership and more advertisers at your doorstep? Look at all the pictures of Eberron everywhere. Notice anything missing? Look harder. I'll spell it out for you. Practically no Eberron product, building, or anything contains advertisement. As far as I can tell, advertisement is alien to Khorvairian thought. The Korranberg Chronicle doesn't say that it advertises, and it would be pointless to do so anyway. The economy is Guild-based. Whatever competition there is is settled in-Guild. Newspapers survive based on selling copies, not serving the interests of powerful people. Ever since they were created, newspapers have ensured their survival by reporting on the elite, not serving them. Newspapers have always been the servants of the public, even from the earliest days. One of the first things the printing press did was publish Martin Luther's list of grievances against the Roman Catholic church, beginning a war that would see genocide in the Netherlands and Spain launch an Armada against Britain. The elite, in this case, was the Pope, and the printing press most certainly did not serve teh elite in that case. The paper was used, in this instance, by an elite mover, Martin Luther King, as a weapon to attack his enemies. Thus, the paper served the interests of the elite, just not the elite as a collective, which is really only natural. Newspapers serve the elite, Kreistor1. I can use numerous examples, but if you refuse to listen to reason, and even see what you yourself gave as an example, then its useless to continue further. Mass media say that they serve the public trust because it makes them more popular, and thus, more powerful and effective. A paper that doesn't serve the interests of those that primarily fund it will not survive, plain and simple. People are people, in both Earth and Eberron. Power comes not from birth or some mark on your chest, but from the people and their willingness to accept leadership. Newspapers are the first step toward giving people the knowledge they need to make the decisions of government themselves, and just because some artist writes differently, doesn't make it true. Mass media has always been used by the powerful to control the public to their own ends. That's why the editor of a newspaper is a modern power in his own right. Mass media give the people the only knowledge they base their decisions on. If they are given the right information, they will act in the appropriate manner. When the elite tried to shut down the media, the media itself, as a power, acted to protect itself - an elite using mass opinion control to protect itself from other elites. Power is only effective if they're scared of you. A House Tharashk investigator enters the cogs and disappears, who's to know who did it? Send in another. He disappears. And another... get the point, yet? Now you've got to go in with protection, and what happens when half the squad goes down in a hail of bolt fire? Send in more? You find the lead investigator with his throat slit in the Inn one morning. What do you do now? If you can think like a Merchant House, the answer will be obvious. Are you completely barmy? In the Cogs, Clan Boramar IS the powerful company. House Tharashk may be a large international, but Boramar doesn't care one whit about Dragonshards or diamonds. They deal in crime on a vast, general scale. Okay, the dragonshard trade stops passing through Sharn: Clan Boramar just laughs. Tharashk jsut cut itself off from the largest market in Khorvaire, and starts bleeding money. Who lost that round? Don't overplay the Houses, R. They have their monopolies, but that's all they have. Dragonmarked Houses wield power and prestige on a level with Five Nations monarchs. That's straight from the ECS. You did notice that Clan Boramar controls the Sharn City Council, yes? Hardly 2-bit. They've got political and economic influence in Sharn on par, or more powerful, than all the Houses combined. The Houses are powerful, but inherently limited to their current size. They'll never gain more powerful, since legally they are not allowed anything more than their monopolies. Clan Boramar has no such limitation. Cite quotes to support your position. The Houses are growing more powerful, and have been since the start of the Last War. Most of the Houses have agents who can act in many covert activites, have recently been bold enough to hire and maintain loyal guards to protect their interests (even though the Code technically prohibits this). Deneith has the most soldiers, of course, but most of the Houses have house guards and agents and such. See the AKB threads for more info. World power? All Houses are disallowed by the Code of Galifar to field armies for any reason other than mercenary. Tharashk has a lot of military strength, yes, but they cannot use it for their own purposes. And who, exactly, is enforcing this Code now? The Five Monarchs combined? Heck, they can't even agree on when to start the hostilities they all want to resume, and now you have them unitedly cracking down on one insignificant violation of an old and increasingly outdated code? Get real. If Tharashk happens to "overlook" certain parts of the Code of Galifar to show a nuisance criminal to mind his own business, you think that the corrupt Watch won't buy popcorn and cheer gleefully from the sidelines? Heck, even the King of Breland will probably not see the point in raising hell over what's essentially a win-win situation for him. You put too much importance on what's legal. Khorvaire composed of feudal monarchies. The Five Nations Monarchs adhere to the Code of Galifar because they want to (and because it gives them certain advantages), not because they have to. If Tharashk sends adventurers one after another into the Cogs in a war of attrition against Clan Boromar (yes, they can probably afford it), which do you think will run out first, Tharashk money, or Boromar clan members? The Watch itself has its own vested interests. And Boromar has other enemies as well. It's weaker than it has been in quite a while. It can't afford to antagonize anyone as powerful as even a minor DM House member, in the precarious state it's in. Read Sharn, City of Towers. Threatening a newspaper was one thing, but actually going through with it after they'd revealed the threat to the public hurt far more than just letting the news go on. What makes you think that Five Nation Monarchs will allow their local papers to print anything that's detrimental to their agents? What you're suggesting would be what happened was tried and failed. Once the people get a taste of the Truth, they won't let it go and that means they'll fight to bring it back against those that are wanting to take it away. What you suggest does not work. All I can see is a bunch of idiots who are easily manipulated into defending one elite by a piece of unsubtle propaganda. There is no Truth, Kreistor1. All there are are sides and spins and agendas and interests. You don't like the parallels I used to justify my view of Eberron as 1800's Europe? Too bad and have a nice day. I see them which is cool enough. Whether I like them or not isn't what I said. I said that none of the things you said were necessarily paralleling Europe in any way I can see. As far as I could tell, you only drew the parallels because Europe was the only one you knew about. When the only dog you know is a chihuahua, all dogs are small as far as you're concerned. Your arguments against my own filling of those holes are, ultimately, futile. We are supposed to make our Eberron's unique to our perspective, so that we don't get into arguments about what the right way to do things. (Such as this argument, for instance.) So, your suggestion that I am wrong in making certain aspects of Sharn or Breland or Khorvaire Western in flavour is completely and wholly wrong, misinformed, and just plain a waste of my time. I am not wrong and you are not wrong. Your Eberron is your Eberron and enjoy playing it the way you want to, just as I'll enjoy playing it the way I want to. Sure, I never said otherwise. I even qualified multiple times that you're quite free to do what you want with your Eberron. In your case, however, it's more than just filling in holes. It's knocking holes where there weren't any and filling them with what you want. Which is OK, too. But it doesn't mean that you're right, particularly, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not suggesting that you're wrong to make these things (such as making Breland Western in flavor). I'm saying that it isn't more sensible, or better. That's just in your point of view, not an absolute. For example, you say that Breland, to you, looks a lot like Elizabethan England, but that's only after you've already not only seen it as such, but made changes to make it moreso. At this point, all I'm saying is that it only looks that way because you've purposefully deviated from written work to make it so. And that's all I'm saying, really. Tonpa: I must say I disagree here strongly. The freedom of press and the full journalistic ideology has been one of the most prominent factors of ideological and political movers... 1. What makes you think that the papers of Khorvaire are a free press? 2. Everything I've ever seen tells me that newspapers are a medium of popular opinion control excercised by the powerful (which includes the paper itself and its movers) to their own ends. Why is this not reasonable in Eberron? If you want the social system to support prejudices and exceptional noble rights you can do that, there is really nothing to prevent this. To support this by written information from the books, you need to interbred somewhat the information, but this is viable. There was opinions made, your answers seem quite a bit like discrediting attempts, while I presume this is not your intention. Material from the books strongly supports what I say. In much the same way, it strongly opposes what has been said. That's all I'm saying. What's viable or not is not at issue. You can make Eberron a political paradise if you like. That doesn't make it consistent with the books, though. No. This is more infrastructural and developed than talking drums, which is ingenious way to communicate, but still quite limited like flags, lights and similar. Telegraphs is good comparison by far. Information that is send is almost identical, with message form being collections of sentences, numbers and possible description. The distance covered is quite identical, plus the crossing the big waters, which is later achieved. Not really. Talking Drums is closer. Talking Drums actually do talk. They send a verbal message word for word from drum station to drum station, in as perfect a reproduction as the operator can manage. Telegraphs send signals, not words, and the messages are thus necessarily short and concise. Not so with Speaking Stones. Moreover, Speaking Stone messages have a speed limit much less than that of a telegraph. Same argument could be made with Spanish ships (if not with size). Still the elemental vessel can travel unaided, producing it’s own thrust. Which is not really equal to steam engine in power, but is by effect. The steamships big flaw was the consumption of fuel and the size of engines. This is not present in elemental vessels. Steamships greatest ace was the ability to move unaided, like rowboat, but without many rowers, and this elemental vessel has. Advanced junks can be made extremely large, and due to prevailing winds, could often sail in practically any direction. This could only be later accomplished with the later development of the excellent Galleon ship by Portugese and Spanish, and in that sense is similar. However, junk rigs still require less manpower to operate and are easier to build and maintain. In their effect on trade, size, effective travel impact, and manpower advantages, the similarities are more for junks than steamships. That is quite modern thinking and production in massive scale. If you accept the factories mentioned in books, which was pointed out to me and what I don’t still like, you lift the Eberron to early modern production. Eberronian factories are still driven by personally produce goods, or else by Skyforges, which are still essentially personally produced goods. In this, they were probably best simulated by the cast iron smithies of Imperial China, which was used not only to produce weapons, but also standardized farm tools, wheel axles, and other such things. Using standardized cast-iron molds to mass produce replaceable parts is, in essense, everything that mass-produced replaceable parts later produced in Western production, except not on an industrial machine scale. I felt this way also. Felt Eberron was democratic oriented in ideology, and in reality if not in theory. Many words in the ECS, especially in Breland, can conjure up democratic ideology. Scrap it and look with clear eyes. The Five Nations are feudal monarchies. There are some qualifications to this in each Nation, but nothing like democratic ideology in any way. Zilargo is closest in terms of representative rule, but there is the Trust, of course. The comparisons were valid. The point was to point out that the comparison is valid, not discredit that there was other options. Europe is quite good comparison. Japan is good comparison. Indian Gupta is really good comparison. Don’t discredit the comparison if it’s too mainstream for your liking. It's like this. Let's say that I think that a modern computer screen looks like a movie projector screen. Of course, it will have similarities, and I don't really say that these similarities don't exist. I merely say that they are similarities that many things share in common. If anything, I'd say that a computer screen resembles a television set, but if you've never seen a television set, or only know grossly inaccurate second-hand information about it, you're bound to insist that the movie tarp is a much better analogue. By the way, why you use the “west” so often? The argumentative factor of accusation is quite valid, but there has really not been west-east comparison here. It could be better if you used eastern examples to clarify your points and use them as a tool, not discredit others for using western examples, if they in fact use them. The comparison, if made, is made for increase the feel of the argument, not to discredit the Chinese history, or eastern philosophy, which is extensive and most here have some knowledge of. I use the term "West" to denote the obvious bias many Euroamericans naturally have for Europe (but which they often do not know or acknowledge). I do use Eastern examples to clarify my points. I'm not discrediting any similarities raised. I'm just pointing out that there are things that are more similar that some apparently aren't aware of, or simply don't like to acknowledge. Most Europeans and Americans I know of know so little of Eastern thought and history that what little they know only serves to mislead them worse than if they had known nothing at all. Many of these ridiculous notions only serve as a platform for Eurocentric Asian bashing of varying degrees of subtlety.
Euangelion 04-19-06, 10:58 AM	The paper was used, in this instance, by an elite mover, Martin Luther King, as a weapon to attack his enemies. You seem pretty smart, and I appreciate your more global perspective than is sometimes found on these boards, so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your fingers just naturally added "King" to the end of the name of the German monk who sparked the Protestant Reformation in 1517, rather than confusing him with the American civil rights leader who gave the "I Have A Dream" speech on August 28, 1963. If, on the other hand, you don't know the difference between the two, then it would appear that you know as little about the history of "Western" civilization as you accuse others of knowing about the history of "Eastern" civilization.
Roxlimn 04-19-06, 11:10 AM	My mistake. I do know the difference, but for some reason I keep adding "King" to Martin Luther's name. Probably because I read about both of them at about the same time. I keep imagining Martin Luther as black for some reason as well. It's probably some sort of synaptic glitch. I won't edit the previous post so that the mistake can be appreciated by all.
Euangelion 04-19-06, 02:44 PM	Well, I meant to add a "wink" at the end of my post, but I forgot, so it came off as more severe than I meant. Sorry!
Kreistor1 04-19-06, 03:16 PM	Heheh, thanks Euangelion. I certainly could not have said that better myself. I think you've nailed the crux of the matter. I really don't think Roxlimn is familiar with the history of the West. For instance, he sees a parallel to Han dynasty canals in the Lightning Rail. Canals are fundamentally limited to the walking speed of the animals drawing the boats through the canal. The boats are also limited to a single vessel, since they are limited in power. Lightning Rail moves at 20mph, has a single engine car pulling multiple passenger and freight cars, is arranged like a train, and one released module, is even laid out exactly like a train. There is nothing about a Lightning Rail that indicates it is anything other than a Railroad equivalent. But he still sees a Canal as the nearest equivalent. The mind boggles. From which law systems are you getting these statements, specifically? All of them, actually. None of those documents could override a Law as written by the Emperor. The Emperor's word was Law, and that was the problem Constitutions and legal codes overcame. Asian law became gross unwieldy things that crushed the people under the impossibilities the Emperors created. A Code that can be used to eliminate inconsistent Laws was entirely a Western invention, and that is what the Code of Galifar is written as being. It may not have the kick of the US Constitution, but it is enough to guarantee minimal rights that a monarch cannot overpower. That makes it Western in flavour, and more accurately, post-Rennaisance European. Khorvaire has feudal monarchies. It's not a conclusion. It says so point-blank right in the ECS. Five Nations states that Breland has an elected Parliament, and that the monarch is now approaching figurehead status. Thrane is a theocracy, where the monarch has no power and the Church of the Silver Flame rules. Cyre has no govenrment at all. Aundair is the closest to a Feudal System. Karrnath is closer to a Fascist state or military dictatorship. Darguun is a military dictatorship. Droaam is anarchist, with a triumvirate rulership (and no monarchy at all). Talenta is a Clan based society. How can you say all of Khorvaire is a feudal monarchy when there are so many different governing styles? Provide basis that Khorvairian Law does not accept self-incrimination. If Khorvairian Law is incompatible with Roman Law, then perhaps it isn't based on that, no? Actually, there isn't much of a system in place as yet, and what little there is you don't accept. You have shown absolutely no basis to be saying this. Okay, so the system is incomplete, and you admit it. If the system itself is not written, and I need a consistent system for my players to operate under right now, I have no choice but to invent one. You are operating under the assumption some future release will produce a legal system and provide a consistent system that encompasses everything as written in previous books. The opportunity for that was presented in Five Nations, and WotC didn't bother. S:CoT had more on Law than FN. That means they are not going to print the legal system. My task, as DM, is then to fill the holes that the incomplete system they handed me. I find myself unable to resolve the problem in a reasonable way because the authors were not lawyers and didn't know what they were talking about, so I reject whatever I need to in order to provide my players with a reasonable Legal system that they can understand. I need a consistent system that both I and my players accept. Your opinion that I should adhere to the letter of every sentence written by some undertrained artists is rejected wholesale. They just wrote a bunch of neat fluff, which did not consider the problem as a whole, and so it is up to me to fixthe damage based on my own study of the subject. I doubt many lawyers are writing modules for WotC and could be called upon to perform that task, so I feel entirely comfortable reinventing that wheel from scratch. So, yes, I reject the legal opinions of Artists and Mathematicians. I have studied law and probably know more than they do about what they were trying to write. So, yes, I feel very comfortable with what I've done to the legal system in broken Galfiar. As far as I can tell, advertisement is alien to Khorvairian thought. The Korranberg Chronicle doesn't say that it advertises, and it would be pointless to do so anyway. A basic human truth nailed by ignorance of the law of omission. It is to laugh. It is impossible to define an entire world in one book. In fact, there isn't enough paper in the world to write everything about our own world, much less an invented one. Lack of definition is not proof of non-existence. We are expected to use our own capacity to reason in order to fill in the holes the designers must leave in the definition of a universe. In easier words, just because it isn't described, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Advertising goods is an invention of every single culture on Earth. To suggest a basic human need is alien to humans in Eberron is absurd. Be it yelling prices in a market or posting a sign beside your stall, advertising is a universal human invention. Newspapers serve the elite, Kreistor1. I can use numerous examples, but if you refuse to listen to reason, Cite quotes to support your position. Okay, so you're very happy demanding I do something you have no intention of doing yourself? Yeah, right, nice double standard there. Don't ask me to do something you don't have any intention of doing yourself. You didn't cite numerous examples because you couldn't think of any at all. Newspapers have brought down more "elite" than I care to count. Richard Nixon, Fatty Arbuckle just off the top of my head. Newspapers dogged the London police throughout the Jack the Ripper slayings (which were of low class prostitutes, so who were they serving?). The list of elite brought down by newspapers is enormous. Peewee Herman. The list of "elite" tried and found guilty in the media is staggering. No one is immune, if a President can be brought low. The paper was used, in this instance, by an elite mover, Martin Luther King, as a weapon to attack his enemies. As Euangelion said, you're dead wrong. Martin Luther was a Roman Catholic monk in the early 1500's, and you can't get much more non-elite than that. He, as an academic exercise at an University, posted his 95 Theses which pointed out glaring errors the RC church had slipped into (especially concerning the sale of Indulgences). He printed them, unfortunately for the RC church, on a printing press. The owner of the press read the test pages, saw the Truth, and copied it for mass distribution without Luther's knowledge. Thus, the first propaganda was produced in a war agaisnt the RC church, not by intention, but by accident and by a man who under no definition could be called elite. Eventually, Luther was pressed into becoming the leader of the Protestant movement (which already existed, but Luther's Theses strengthened the movement incredibly). Luther was a nobody, but the power of the press created of him a powerful figure against the single most powerful and elite figure in the Western World, the Pope. This was only 50 years after Gutenberg invented the press. So early, and yet it brought low the most powerful institution of the day. The RC church lost so wholeheartedly, it only accounts for 1/2 of the Christians in our world today, where it once accounted for 100%. No, newspapers do not serve the elite. They exist, and always have, to bring the elite low. A paper that doesn't serve the interests of those that primarily fund it will not survive, plain and simple. And who is that, exactly? Who funds newspapers? You do realize that 95% of a newspaper's revenue comes from advertising, right? And advertisers are only interested in their messages reaching the most people possible, which means selling the most papers, right? Advertisers are only interested in selling their own goods,not the subject matter of the paper's articles. If the newspaper loses sales because the readership does not like what the paper reports, the newspaper loses advertisers and revenue because the advertisers are trying to reach as many people as possible. Newspapers exist to sell as many copies as they can, thereby allowing them to raise their advertising prices and make more money. So, if the newspaper can sell more papers by uncovering the excesses of a government fat-cat politician, one of your "elite", it will do so. And it does. Over and over again. Way back in the Jack the Ripper days, the newspapers suggested there was a link between the murderer and the Masons, the most powerful "guild" of elite of that day. They weren't afraid of the suggesting powerful people were involved, because they knew they were untouchable. The papers were accusing the most powerful private organization of elite individuals in Europe of involvement in the murder of prostitutes: tell me how that matches your theory of newspapers enslaved to the elite. Ultimately, the "elite" do not fund papers, it's the readership that produce the revenue that makes the profits flow, and the readership to whom newspapers are responsible. When the elite tried to shut down the media, the media itself, as a power, acted to protect itself - an elite using mass opinion control to protect itself from other elites. An elite is only elite if the common man cannot enter the ranks. One of the wonderful things about newspapers is that all it takes is a press and literacy. Anyone can become a journalist, and so it is inherently non-elite. Anyone can print a paper and so the suggestion that some kind of mass conspiracy of all newspapers to control the public exists is absurd. Society loathes a void, so even were the papers to go the route you suggest, another paper would begin in secret to reveal the truth. Any long term effort of the type you describe has always historically resulted in underground newspapers contending with the "official" news. France's various revolutions are excellent examples of periods where common men began to print their own papers to counter the lies being told in the media. Luther's example is a second. The printing press' power comes not in the words, but in the fact any dog and his boy can use the device. That means anyone's voice can be heard, and if a voice is being ignored, someone will print it. So, no, I deny that you are even close to the mark on what a newspaper truly means. If the Sharn Inquisitor won't speak the truth, than a hundred little home jobs will. If Tharashk sends adventurers one after another into the Cogs in a war of attrition against Clan Boromar (yes, they can probably afford it), which do you think will run out first, Tharashk money, or Boromar clan members? The Watch itself has its own vested interests. And Boromar has other enemies as well. It's weaker than it has been in quite a while. It can't afford to antagonize anyone as powerful as even a minor DM House member, in the precarious state it's in. Tharashk will run out first. Boramar can hire adventurers to fight back, and with home field advantage, their forces have safe places to sleep at night. Tharashk has to watch its back constantly, can't know the food they are buying isn't poisoned, and can't go anywhere without a major force (which means they're not able to go anywhere unnoticed). What's more, some of those "adventurers" may actually be Clan Boramar, and consequently result in the deaths of their companions. Some people just do not understand just how insidious a truly motivated gang can be. Dragonmarked Houses wield power and prestige on a level with Five Nations monarchs. That's straight from the ECS. Whether it does or not, I can accept that for the moment. That Tharashk has power does not mean Organized Crime doesn't have power. What you're trying to say is that Hewlett Packard could destroy the Mafia in New York. Sorry, but that's not even close to being feasible. If you can think like a Merchant House, the answer will be obvious. If you couldn't think of an answer, I'm not going to solve your problem for you. You see, the ultimate problem is that you want to play House Tharashk as really smart and Clan Boramar as really dumb, because you like House Tharashk far more than you like House Tharashk. You want the "good guys" to win. Organized Crime, if it was as easy to deal with as you want it to be, would have been destroyed long ago. The problem Tharashk has to face is daunting in the extreme. They are trying to take down an organization that provides services to the areas they control that the people want -- Prostitution, Drugs, Gambling, and all the other vices. They also provide protection services against lesser criminals for merchants in areas the Watch doesn't go. The people want Clan Boramar to win, since House Tharashk will not provide the services Clan Boramar provides. That makes Tharashk the bad guys in lower Sharn. Yes, Clan Boramar does worse than this, but at the very least, it does give the people want the people want. Do not underestimate the power that something like Clan Boramar can wield. It is far more than just a way of making money. If Tharashk happens to "overlook" certain parts of the Code of Galifar to show a nuisance criminal to mind his own business, you think that the corrupt Watch won't buy popcorn and cheer gleefully from the sidelines? The Watch is corrupt. Clan Boramar has been paying them for years to look the other way. Of course the Watch sides with Clan Boramar: it's in their financial interest to keep that cash flow moving into their pockets. So when the Boramar block moves that the City Council send the Watch after House Tharashk, they'll go happily. And when Boramar moves that Charn hire House Deneith to protect the Cogs from Hosue Tharashk, Deneith will see the opportunity to take down Tharashk and go gladly. How would the other Houses react if they saw one House violating the Code that ensures the Houses do not go back to direct warfare, like the pre-Galifar days? The Code protects the Houses from each other, not just the civil authorities from the Houses like you seem to suggest. Remember, the Houses supported Glaifar willingly: they wouldn't have done that if they wanted thigns to continue the way they used to. Remember, it was not the Houses that created Galifar, but a civil authority lead by King Galifar. The Houses are not that powerful: they were not capable of taking on Galifar as he conquered Khorvaire; instead, they bowed to his will and took the offer which restricted their power. They weren't able to conquer the world 1000 years ago, and they wouldn't be today. Dragonmarks are an advantage, but a severely limited one. Yes, it gives them power, but what kind of power? Some kinds of power simply can't be used to solve certain types of problems. And prestige is worth only what the people are willing to let you have for being prestigious. If Tharashk sends adventurers one after another into the Cogs in a war of attrition against Clan Boromar (yes, they can probably afford it), which do you think will run out first, Tharashk money, or Boromar clan members? The adventurers. The Tharashk adventurers find themselves facing adventurers hired by Clan Boramar, or had you forgotten that Clan Boramar has money, too? Boramar's money is in Sharn, which is a greater advantage than Tharashk's money outside of Sharn. Or, better yet, they find themselves facing House Deneith. Nothing stops Clan Boramar from planting House Deneith firmly in Tharashk's way, and considering Deneith is looking for an excuse to take Tharashk's Droaam mercenaries away, Deneith has a big glaring reason for wanting to face Tharashk down. Deneith would likely be called on to stop Tharashk anyway by the Brelish crown. The Brelish g'ment sees Tharashk pulling a stunt like that, violating the Code, they'd probably get Deneith to do it for a song, just by waving the rights to the Droaam mercenaries under their noses. Droaam is still Brelish territory, so the Houses do have to play by Breland's rules when it comes to that region. So, Tharashk oversteps, Deneith gets Droaam. Or were you not thinking that there were checks and balances holding the Houses at bay? The other Houses are who ensure the Houses obey the Code of Galifar. None of them want to go back to the old pre-Galifar warring days. Tharashk doesn't want to face Deneith mercs, Deneith doesn't want to face Cannith Warforged Titans, Cannith doesn't want to face Orien Airships (which haven't been armed, but nothing says they can't be), Sivis doesn't weant to face anyone at all... Cite quotes to support your position. Sharn: City of Towers, descriptions of the City Council members, references to the Boramar voting block of three. Others are afraid of voting against the Block, so it doesn't have to work very hard to get its way. Next time, do your own homework. That's your one freebie. Sure, I never said otherwise. I even qualified multiple times that you're quite free to do what you want with your Eberron. Then why continue with this thread? I'm continuing because you have repeatedly and unjustifiably insulted me throughout your responses. I enjoy taking someone like you down a few pegs. And every response just piles on the evidence. Every reference I make that you completely screw up only embarrasses you and tears down your qualifications. You're talking about things you don't have any background on, and no qualifications to judge. In your case, however, it's more than just filling in holes. It's knocking holes where there weren't any and filling them with what you want. Which is OK, too. Not the way you're saying it. And not the way you're arguing. You're making it clear that you do not think it's okay, just by continuing the fight, seeking me to prove my case, you are revealing that you do not think what I did was okay. Yes, I knocked out some ill-conceived pegs that some unqualified Artists in WotC tried to prop up a legal system with. I'm not going to apologize for actually studying Law, and knowing why their pegs have to come out. But it doesn't mean that you're right, particularly, as far as I'm concerned.I'm not suggesting that you're wrong to make these things (such as making Breland Western in flavor). I'm saying that it isn't more sensible, or better. That's just in your point of view, not an absolute. But you are saying I'm wrong. Over and over again, and trying to cite evidence to prove your case or force me to cite evidence to prove mine. Let's see your intent match your actions, okay? If you truly think I'm all right in doing what I've done, then drop it. I don't think you can, but that's how you prove you don't think the other guy is wrong, you stop arguing. I don't actually have a stated intent, though some people may think I'm promoting a particular view of Eberron. All I'm out for is to embarrass you, which has started and is prgressing quite nicely. You see, you insulted me multiple times, and I think the best revenge is to twist you on your own words. I planted that Martin Luther reference in order to sucker you into the very mistake you made: confusing Martin Luther King with his namesake. I gave you all the info you needed to know I was talking about someone from Europe in the deep past, not the US, and you fell for it hook line and sinker, taking the obvious (and egotistical) belief that I dropped the "King" instead of doing your homework and finding out that King was named after a historical personage. And so, thanks to Euangelion, I know that reference was not lost on the learned readership, and so I know my true goal of mocking you is being achieved. So, keep talking and I'll continue to let you embarrass yourself. Either that, or you need to do a lot of study in order to stop making mistakes. Or you can apologize for the insults like a mature person, take it as lesson learned, and be more careful who you provoke next time. For example, you say that Breland, to you, looks a lot like Elizabethan England, but that's only after you've already not only seen it as such, but made changes to make it moreso. At this point, all I'm saying is that it only looks that way because you've purposefully deviated from written work to make it so. Please cite a quote where I compare Breland to Elizabethan England. My only reference to that era was when you asked for a reference to a pre-Equality effective female monarch in Europe. I didn't bother mentioning Mary Queen of Scots, her contemporary and another powerful female monarch, or Queen Victoria, also from pre-Equality movement times. Elizabeth was hardly an exception. There are other powerful female rulers, often when the males were screw-ups so they didn't hold the crown just the influence of the crown, throughout European history. Note that I've been comparing Eberron (specifically Breland) to 1800's England, which is Victorian era, not 1500's Elizabethan era. Industrial age England, not Rennaisance.
stembolt 04-19-06, 10:33 PM	Normally I hate doing this kind of thing but if I did a point by point analysis of the argument here it would take the rest of the week to type up. After plowing through the information presented as well as I can I have this analysis. Kreistor1 is not 100% correct. He is however about 90% correct and 10% open to interpretation. Roxlimn is not 100% wrong, but so dead set on proving Kreistor1 wrong that it looks like he’s 90% wrong 10% right. (That’s a “looks like” btw.) In a discussion of this sort I think one cannot hold to any sort of RAW vs Not-Actually-RAW. As an example I interpreted the use of “zone of truth” similar to Kreistor1. It is a tool that has procedural use. A defendant can, for example, petition the use of one to clear his name. However, the questions are “cleared” before hand. Story wise the man might be clearing his own name but does not want to incriminate the guilty party (like a son). Likewise, a magistrate can approve of the use of a zone of truth under certain circumstances (citizens have rights that protect them from self incrimination). A “RAW” interpretation is something that is impossible. An “interpretation” can never be “as written.” The commenter must always think, “what did the writer mean?” or “where can I go with this idea?” Think less “is this written in the Eberron books” and more “is this Eberron-like.”
Kreistor1 04-20-06, 11:46 AM	/bow stembolt I appreciate the analysis. I don't let myself do that sort of thing in response to my own words, since it comes out as egotistical. Never judge yourself, since everyone else can do that so much better than oneself. I actually apply the Zone fo Truth differently depending on which nation you're in. Breland doesn't use it, Karrnath does, Aundair uses it during sentencing, and Thrane uses it before a criminal is hanged to ensure they aren't killing an innocent. That's to reflect that each nation has its own legal system and haven't worked out all the basic kinks yet, since their individual systems only date back to the beginning of the Last War.
aelryinth 04-20-06, 08:25 PM	Don't worry about Rox, Kriestor...he comes across as smug, arrogant, condescending and infallible in his own mind to everyone he disagrees with. Just remember that he's way smarter then you and knows everything you know more then you do, and you'll get along just fine with him! of Course, if you keep tearing him a new one like this, I'll just keep watching and smirking as he falls down the ladder of his own hubris again...and again. ===Aelryinth
Tonpa 04-21-06, 03:27 AM	Don't worry about Rox, Kriestor...he comes across as smug, arrogant, condescending and infallible in his own mind to everyone he disagrees with. Just remember that he's way smarter then you and knows everything you know more then you do, and you'll get along just fine with him! of Course, if you keep tearing him a new one like this, I'll just keep watching and smirking as he falls down the ladder of his own hubris again...and again. Umph. I must say this somehow got nasty again. Rude and offensive, with plots hidden in texts, which I don’t feel were not really planned. If they were, then I must be rude and say that’s childish, to gout on mistake, possibly effective but ultimately rude. By most parts Kreistor1: s points feel good, and I can appreciate them, quite few of Roxlimn: s points are good also. The tone in both was somewhat too offensive at times, in the end sounding even intentionally so. Aelryinth:s last comment is rude, really rude. I would take offensive from that immediately, which doesn’t make you a greater person. Not wanting to be misunderstood by mistake; Euangelion’s comments were polite as was stembolt’s. And nice comments all the way. Sorry for so harsh tone, I don’t want to sound hypocrite or similar, I have been childish ( and rude) in some of my comments too. Just want to say this doesn’t sound as cool as it should. :(
Tonpa 04-21-06, 05:37 AM	1. What makes you think that the papers of Khorvaire are a free press? 2. Everything I've ever seen tells me that newspapers are a medium of popular opinion control excercised by the powerful (which includes the paper itself and its movers) to their own ends. Why is this not reasonable in Eberron? 1. I think is page 133 ECS (or something i don't remember exact page), the birth story of chronicles, where the one of the most supporting part to the general growth of the newspaper market for the line in question was the “mostly unbiased news” from the war. The “mostly” rats covers the interest group that is supporting the paper, for example the religious groups could find more understanding on religious intolerance in some specific news, without even using propaganda knowingly. But being that the readers are here lifted as deciding factor of the success, and the support by unbiased news to this success, it seems to lead to “free press” opinion. It most certainly is not all-free press; there are norms for press even in free press, like national interest in security and the rights of the individuals. 2. What I have felt and seen is almost the opposite. There is some bias on what gets coverage on which time, but what is then reported is quite accurate and more news oriented than opinion making. The newspapers by themselves are birthed as medias of information sharing, and then profit making. The medium itself becomes a opinion control vessel later and by small scale, if the institution network is supporting this. Governmental control is possible in some of the medias and in some extend and mostly if they are local. Therefore it’s not really necessary to presume that the news medias automatically are biased. Naturally Times uses news that interest Londoners, and China Daily (don’t know if it’s really a newspaper, I read the news there online) what interests Chinese. Both have some ideological connotations with themselves, concerning specific news items, but are usually quite equal in journalistic power. The opinion control in Eberron by news medias is off course possible, and can introduce good plots on players, but in my opinion they are individual cases, not that the full news system is supporting the power groups. You can make Eberron a political paradise if you like. I didn’t intend it to be, but that’s possible yes. The full literacy and void of sexism is utopistic, but present in dnd in general. That the system takes common peoples opinion is not political paradise, not by far. Not really. Talking Drums is closer. Talking Drums actually do talk. They send a verbal message word for word from drum station to drum station, in as perfect a reproduction as the operator can manage. Telegraphs send signals, not words, and the messages are thus necessarily short and concise. Not so with Speaking Stones. Moreover, Speaking Stone messages have a speed limit much less than that of a telegraph. The message code can translate everything you need. Still feel that the stone system is more telegraph type. Talking drums are off course neat idea, but it also includes the overhearing part, which is possible in telegraphs, but lot harder to do. Telegraphs are usually not affected by moderate weather conditions, but drums are. Telegraphs are not affected by moderate terrain conditions and neither by urban buildings, drums are. I can feel that in theory the drums are similar, but I prefer the telegraphs myself, but this is an opinion. Advanced junks can be made extremely large, and due to prevailing winds, could often sail in practically any direction. Elemental galleon’s main point is that it makes it’s own propulsion. The ship personnel control the propulsion factor, not the weather. Steamship does just this. Steamship does need fuel, which is difference by long trips yes, but you can also see dragon marked personnel as a hard to come by fuel, which needs entertainment, without he just leaves (fuel runs out without some contact to land bases). Still feel that the self propulsion is the key factor here, but again, that’s an opinion. Using standardized cast-iron molds to mass produce replaceable parts is, in essense, everything that mass-produced replaceable parts later produced in Western production, except not on an industrial machine scale. By this sense bronze aged Britons just did that. Mass casting there produced millions of similar tools, mostly axe heads, swords and spearheads. Bronze working has been called industrial revolution, but if we look the feel of the mass-production, I feel the arsenal has more that impact. And not to be misunderstood; the bronze working is Middle Eastern invention by age of found tools, which would be the earliest examples of mass mold-casting with metals. The point here is the ideology of mass-production, which was talked here earlier. There I would like to lift the arsenal notion up, which was really good point. I see still your point there, but you don’t use the infrastructure example there, which would be good on China point off view.
Kreistor1 04-21-06, 11:18 AM	Sorry for so harsh tone, I don’t want to sound hypocrite or similar, I have been childish ( and rude) in some of my comments too. Just want to say this doesn’t sound as cool as it should. No offense taken. I don't find that tone harsh. I've found that most of the time, people aren't capable of predicting the tone others will see in their message, because background, culture, and language differences can cause others to read messages differently from the originator's intent. So, I always try to give the author the benefit of the doubt, if I spot offense in the subtext. It's direct insult that will cause me to poke back. So, no, I don't read a harsh tone in your message in the first place, but if I did, I wouldn't be offended anyway.
WizO_Sith 04-21-06, 01:14 PM	Sorry folks, but setting aside for a moment whether or not this is even an apropriate topic for this forum (The Powers That Be tend to frown upon topics that aren't constructive), this topic has become too flame-war-ish to be allowed to continue. This thread will be locked, do not restart it. *Click*